Wiring winch to starter

[LRH110]

Hi guys, I have recently installed a new 9000lb winch and bar to my 110 and wired the active to the starter motor so I didn't have to go through the firewall and get thicker wires to compensate for the extra length needed.

Has anyone else done this or heard of any issues coarsed by wiring in such a fashion?

Cheers, Campbell

[wrinklearthur]

Hi guys, I have recently installed a new 9000lb winch and bar to my 110 and wired the active to the starter motor so I didn't have to go through the firewall and get thicker wires to compensate for the extra length needed. Has anyone else done this or heard of any issues coarsed by wiring in such a fashion? Cheers, Campbell

Hi Campbell

Welcome aboard to the forum.

I would not do as you suggested and add the winch power cable to the terminal on the starter motor.

If that cable joint became resistive, it would heat up very quickly and then your vehicle would be out of action, as the heat can cause the insulator around the starters terminal to fail. With a red hot cable, even if it didn't catch alight it would definitely wreck the battery.

My 110 already had a hole in the battery box, panel facing forward and near the bottom of the battery box. The hole exits in line with the gap between the floor and the top of the chassis. This is where I ran both the cables for my winch, the positive direct to my second battery and the negative to the battery via a heavy switch, this is for isolating the winch so no idiot can try and get up to mischief, causing damage.
.

[Beckford]

Hi guys, I have recently installed a new 9000lb winch and bar to my 110 and wired the active to the starter motor so I didn't have to go through the firewall and get thicker wires to compensate for the extra length needed.

I used battery cables from Super Cheap to extend the leads on my winch to reach my battery.

Later on somebody suggested that I could get new leads with crimped ends made up by welding supplies place. I think this may be a good idea. What size wire should be used?

[Nero]

What size wire should be used?

Have a look at your winch specs see if its got and amp or wattage rating (wattage divide by 12 to get amps). Add at least 30% and thats the size wire you should use anyone auto electrician should be able to sort you but for things like this I gravitate towards guys that do marine and truck stuff regularly.

[Recy Mech]

Definitely not a preferred method of running wiring for any electrical device, especially with a load pull from a winch. No telling what damage would be done to the starter or possible fire.

As stated, run the power/active cable from the battery post via a fuse box.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I was going to BluTooth the power to the winch! :twisted:

It's a pitty the batteries in the Defers are under the seat and not in the engine bay as the shorter the distance the less the voltage drop!

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I've always used flexible 35mm2 cable, no joints anywhere, soldered connections at each end and connected directly to the battery (via solenoid) for upto 6Hp motors.

Sent using Forum Runner

[Reads90]

I have always run a cable under the car to the battery box

But I have always put a winch cut of switch on the front of the battery box so the winch is always off until you need it

Did this on all my trucks for safety

And to stop anyone tampering with the winch when I am not around

[Loubrey]

I have always run a cable under the car to the battery box

But I have always put a winch cut of switch on the front of the battery box so the winch is always off until you need it

Did this on all my trucks for safety

And to stop anyone tampering with the winch when I am not around

Mine's always been the same setup as Reads90's as well. Many years of incident free winch carrying and operating.

Two pieces of cable, one 3.5m and the other 0.6m (#2 if I remember correctly) with the terminals crimped, soldered and heat shrink wrapped by the local auto sparky for $50 cash. My cutoff switch is minespec style on the bulbar (hence the short cable) with a small padlock in the "off" position. The long cable just runs nicely tucked away to the battery box and Puma's have a number of ready grommited access holes in the box for easy access.

[muzza99]

i have installed a 12000 lb winch to my 130 and used it in a local 4x4 comp last year and had no problems with it running of my stater motor.

[wrinklearthur]

i have installed a 12000 lb winch to my 130 and used it in a local 4x4 comp last year and had no problems with it running of my stater motor.

Hi Muzza

You got away with till now, but I would still take it off the starter terminal and run the cable direct to the battery.

The fitting of an isolation switch in the earth cable, so that it's key or handle is with in quick reach of the driver is another important safety issue.

Add; My mistake in writing this post should read, a easy to reach isolation switch in the positive lead between the battery and the winch
.

[camel_landy]

Definate no no!!

Not only should it be on a dedicated cable, you should have an isolator switch and ideally run it from a different battery!!

* Get another battery in that battery box & stick it on a split charge.
* Mount a decent isolator switch in the passenger footwell.
* Run the cable from the +ve, through the isolator and then into the winch.

Yes, it is going to cost a few $$$ but then no-one said that running a winch was cheap... ;)

M

[roverrescue]

Im not really certain what all the fuss is about.
Your shiny new winch up front is just a glorified starter motor.
The factory cable from main battery to the +ve terminal on OEM starter motor is adequately sized for majority of winching application.
Ensure good clean terminations from starter to winch solenoids and it will be fine.

The +ve terminal on the starter isnt going to care that it has a few hundred amps at it when winch is powering and it wont start a fire unless you poorly junction on the post... which is no different to poorly running a brand new cable all the way to a poorly grommited entrace or a poorly terminated battery connection. If you are worried about a fire then get someone who knows what they are doing to do it.

IF you want to be able to disconnect power from the winch then it may indeed be more simple to run a cable to the battery box. Then in place of any fancy arse switch just leave the +ve lead off the battery until needed.

Steve

[rovercare]

Definate no no!!

Not only should it be on a dedicated cable, you should have an isolator switch and ideally run it from a different battery!!

* Get another battery in that battery box & stick it on a split charge.
* Mount a decent isolator switch in the passenger footwell.
* Run the cable from the +ve, through the isolator and then into the winch.

Yes, it is going to cost a few $$$ but then no-one said that running a winch was cheap... ;)

M

It's good practice to winch off your cranking battery actually;)

[rovercare]

Im not really certain what all the fuss is about.
Your shiny new winch up front is just a glorified starter motor.
The factory cable from main battery to the +ve terminal on OEM starter motor is adequately sized for majority of winching application.
Ensure good clean terminations from starter to winch solenoids and it will be fine.

The +ve terminal on the starter isnt going to care that it has a few hundred amps at it when winch is powering and it wont start a fire unless you poorly junction on the post... which is no different to poorly running a brand new cable all the way to a poorly grommited entrace or a poorly terminated battery connection. If you are worried about a fire then get someone who knows what they are doing to do it.

IF you want to be able to disconnect power from the winch then it may indeed be more simple to run a cable to the battery box. Then in place of any fancy arse switch just leave the +ve lead off the battery until needed.

Steve

What he said

[roverrescue]

Exzaccery Matt,
I would argue its good practice to just run two batts in the box in parrellel and winch of both your main batteries ;)
But then again people like spending money on majik black boxes.

S

[rovercare]

Hi Muzza

You got away with till now, but I would still take it off the starter terminal and run the cable direct to the battery.

The fitting of an isolation switch in the earth cable, so that it's key or handle is with in quick reach of the driver is another important safety issue.

Add; My mistake in writing this post should read, a easy to reach isolation switch in the positive lead between the battery and the winch
.

Why not just run a 2 core from the solenoid pack and put a little switch in the control supply as opposed to a well underrated isolator in the main cable, bett yet, chuck an in cab switch at the same time

[rovercare]

Exzaccery Matt,
I would argue its good practice to just run two batts in the box in parrellel and winch of both your main batteries ;)
But then again people like spending money on majik black boxes.

S

That's why ihave dual optimas linked with a solenoid and a 6hp widened free spooled high mount.......sitting on my shed floor:(

[roverrescue]

I guess sitting on the concrete they will get the same amount of use as if they were bolted onto the 'fender though eh?

S

[wrinklearthur]

IF you want to be able to disconnect power from the winch then it may indeed be more simple to run a cable to the battery box. Then in place of any fancy arse switch just leave the +ve lead off the battery until needed.

An example of a fancy arse switch, which happens to be the same as the one I installed in my Defender and is quick an easy to use, best of all the switch stops any intelligence challenged idiot, doing things like wrapping the winch cable around a Merc in the car park and then leaving the winch to wind in!!! :eek2:

eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BATTERY-ISOLATION-KILL-SWITCH-Boat-Car-Camper-12V-/220616180514)
.

[roverrescue]

I understood the type you were referring to. I think they are just a complication. If you are worried about urban myths then disconnect the winch cable from the battery terminal +ve, -ve or both!

Getting to the original topic; you were down on using the +ve terminal of the starter motor but you then suggest putting a cheap switch into play with two extra terminations plus the switching contacts of a $12 piece of plastic... These are all possible points of voltage drop and current arc (fire risk). Or in your words "If that cable joint became resistive, it would heat up very quickly "
It is technically safer to bolt the winch cable to the starter motor +ve terminal than incorporate such a device.

I dont really care what path Campbell takes BUT he will NOT have any problems with a properly terminated connection at the starter motor +ve post.

Peace
Steve

[rovercare]

I guess sitting on the concrete they will get the same amount of use as if they were bolted onto the 'fender though eh?

S

Pretty much:(

[roverrescue]

Tell you what mate,
Send your 130 up on a truck, Ill take it lots of interesting places this year (got some good trips planned already), Ill treat it like it should be treated and take the purdy pikchas to prove it.

Ill send the photos in an envelope marked:

"Matts 2012 Vicarious Cape York Adventure"

;) S

[101 Ron]

Before I sold my TDI 130 the winch was supplied from the starter terminal with good spec cable and connections and it worked without trouble and is still most likely working fine that way for its new owner today.

[wrinklearthur]

I understood the type you were referring to. I think they are just a complication. If you are worried about urban myths No just the suburban facts ! --- have you ever had a smoke bomb let off under your Land Rover by one of these types? and no rude comments like 'birds of a feather' thanks.


then disconnect the winch cable from the battery terminal +ve, -ve or both! Yep, but use a switch rather than wrestle with the terminal clamps .


Getting to the original topic; you were down on using the +ve terminal of the starter motor but you then suggest putting a cheap switch into play with two extra terminations plus the switching contacts of a $12 piece of plastic... My switch admittedly, is a good bit more robust than that example, sorry, I should have dragged another switch into play kicking and screaming .


These are all possible points of voltage drop and current arc (fire risk). Or in your words "If that cable joint became resistive, it would heat up very quickly "
It is technically safer to bolt the winch cable to the starter motor +ve terminal than incorporate such a device.
Two heavy and stiff cables coming in to that terminal, coupled with the movement of the vibrating motor and the occasional jerk as the vehicle bumps over rough going, is not a case of if the joint will come loose but when.


I dont really care what path Campbell takes BUT he will NOT have any problems with a properly terminated connection at the starter motor +ve post.
until it properly comes loose!

[roverrescue]

I know I finished my last post with 'peace' but this is just a little bit funny (not as funny as having to buy a 110 so the hounds can have air conditioning but funny none the less) AND I have had a few reds by now;
"Two heavy and stiff cables coming in to that terminal, coupled with the movement of the vibrating motor and the occasional jerk as the vehicle bumps over rough going, is not a case of if the joint will come loose but when."

ever seen a 200hp volvo AD40 marine at full stonk. 6 proper angry cylinders trying their hardest to rattle an entire hull to pieces... starter cables just seem to stay attached funnily enough despite the vibrations and running into "corrugations" a landy wouldn't even nightmare about.

CAMPBELL, IT ISNT GOING TO BE A PROBLEM - WIRE UP THE WINCH TO THE BACK OF THE CIGGIE SOCKET IF YOU HAVE TO... EITHER WAY JUST GET OUT AND USE IT.

Peace (and I think I mean it this time)
Steve

[wrinklearthur]

I have had a few reds by now
I tried some Brown Brothers Cienna tonight, might have to get another as I'm not sure yet. Cheers !



ever seen a 200hp volvo AD40 marine at full stonk. 6 proper angry cylinders trying their hardest to rattle an entire hull to pieces... starter cables just seem to stay attached funnily enough despite the vibrations and running into "corrugations" a landy wouldn't even nightmare about.
Can't say I have. :D


CAMPBELL, IT ISNT GOING TO BE A PROBLEM - WIRE UP THE WINCH TO THE BACK OF THE CIGGIE SOCKET IF YOU HAVE TO we agree to disagree on this--- I think ;)....
EITHER WAY JUST GET OUT AND USE IT. Amen .


Peace (and I think I mean it this time) Yep Peace besides it's nearly time for the insomniacs to start their meeting.
.

[roverrescue]

:) Its a winch - use it till the solenoids burn out or the motor shorts or the mud chews the planetaries. Rip it out put in a new one and then move on with life.

Its not meant to be complicated - The interwebs just trys to make us think it is normal to be complicated.

ps, nice choice of vino...

S

[LRH110]

WOW!
A lot of mixed opinions there, thanks everyone..... I understand that it is obviously 'ideal' to have the active running directly to the battery with or without an isolator to reduce 'risk' of anything going wrong.
As far as having my active on the starter goes, has anyone actually burned their deefer from such a stunt?
I will obviously be checking the terminal regularly to ensure maximum conductivity and I've got 90 suspension on my puma 110 so vibration isn't such an issue ;)

Cheers,
Campbell

[akelly]

I'm about to finally hook up the winch thats been hanging in the bullbar for the last 6 months... :) So interesting reading here.

I've read a number of times around the web this thing about people hooking up your winch to things (most often your own towbar) and cranking up the winch when you're not there. It smacks of a myth. Anyone have proof that this has ever happend in Australia?

Cheers,

Adam

[LRH110]

Hi adam,
Do you not have a remote on your winch anyway, which can be disconnected with ease so the winch cannot operate without it?
If not, instead of putting in an isolater just lock the eye on your cable/nylon to your bar....

Cheers
Campbell

[akelly]

Hi adam,
Do you not have a remote on your winch anyway, which can be disconnected with ease so the winch cannot operate without it?
If not, instead of putting in an isolater just lock the eye on your cable/nylon to your bar....

Cheers
Campbell

Yep - mine has a remote but that wouldn't stop the winch gremlins from the urban myth.... The story usually involves someone hooking a winch cable up to either another car or the towbar of the winching car (running the cable over the roof) then shorting the terminals on the winch to cause huge damage. I just can't see this happening in real life - it sounds too ridiculous, why not just slash some tyres, break some windows and be done with it? The idea of some idiot vandal taking the time to spool out a winch cable and then having something on-hand to short the terminals is just bizzare.

Anyone got a first hand account of this?

[wrinklearthur]

Yep - mine has a remote but that wouldn't stop the winch gremlins from the urban myth.... The story usually involves someone hooking a winch cable up to either another car or the towbar of the winching car (running the cable over the roof) then shorting the terminals on the winch to cause huge damage. I just can't see this happening in real life - it sounds too ridiculous, why not just slash some tyres, break some windows and be done with it? The idea of some idiot vandal taking the time to spool out a winch cable and then having something on-hand to short the terminals is just bizzare. Anyone got a first hand account of this?


Well ... There is what has happened to me with the smoke bomb. Previous post.
Society does need gaols unfortunately, as we don't live in a perfect world.
But I will follow this so called myth up and ask a couple of my old mates about the time they witnessed something going on. ---- there life in this thread yet!

I brought from the auctions and now have a Disco 1 V8 in my yard that had a extremely hot fire in the cab. I looked around to see what may have caused the fire , found a heavy wire that had been shorted, (you can tell this as the surface of the copper wire tends to bubble a little,) tracing it from where a outlet was in the back to the remains of the battery. Guess what! no switch and more importantly no fuse either.

So in lieu of of a fuse, where ever you pick the feed up from for the winch, I would still use a isolator switch, as then if there is a short or the winch motor burns out and smoke starts, you can cut the power from the battery.

By the way, Roverrescue and myself have agreed to disagree , over a glass of red. Peace and harmony in the camp. :)

[Loubrey]

Too scared to find out... that's why I've got a mine spec isolator on the bulbar (isolating the winch, not the entire battery like minespec) and the lot locked with a padlock. I suppose someone who knows enough about electrics can still crawl under the car, short the isolator and then muck with the winch... hopefully that's just too much trouble for your avarage street thug vandal!

[akelly]

Hey Arthur - I missed the smoke bomb reference, do tell?

I don't doubt that people are mad and do some mad things, but would an idiot out to cause mayhem take the time to unspool a winch and all that? Easier to smash a window with a rubbish bin, surely?

Urban myths are a hobby of mine, so I'm always keen to find out where they come from. :)

BTW, I'm not wiring my winch to the starter. For no other reason than I already have an isolator waiting to be used and I want a power distribution point up high in my engine bay.

Cheers,

Adam

[krispe]

Plenty of anecdotal evidence here (http://www.exploroz.com/Forum/Topic/36957/Winch_Vandalism.aspx) just no pictures, which is the real evidence required.

[akelly]

Hey Krispe - I saw that stuff too. Plenty of people there calling myth also.

I cant imagine a paperclip keeping the terminals fused for long - surely it would melt pretty quick given the size of the batteries in most 4x4s? I dropped a spanner across battery terminals when I was an apprentice and it was almost glowing in about 10 seconds.

I guess the jury is out. I'm maintaining myth until I see a pic!

[wrinklearthur]

My solenoid pack is inside the bonnet of my Defender and the hoods can't get at them.



I cant imagine a paperclip keeping the terminals fused for long - surely it would melt pretty quick given the size of the batteries in most 4x4s? I dropped a spanner across battery terminals when I was an apprentice and it was almost glowing in about 10 seconds. I'm maintaining myth until I see a pic!

I saw a Telecom radio site stopped, when a shifter was dropped across a 50 volt buss bar, very quiet except for the Tech who's shifter was dropped, his teeth were chattering. :eek:

The paper clip is capable of running the winch when pushed into the remotes socket. :(


A quote from another forum; 'Everyone should have a winch power isolator anyway, having permanent power through a un-fused cable, and right at the front of the car, could be a dangerous fire hazzard in the event of a front end collision.'

Good point.
.

[akelly]

The paper clip is capable of running the winch when pushed into the remotes socket. :(
.

Ah, of course. I hadn't thought of that.

[camel_landy]

Isolator:

I would want to fit an isolator for safety, not just to isolate when not in use. As previously mentioned, if you have a problem, there is no fuse to trip the system out and it will just keep on going until something melts!

Imagine the scenario of you getting the remote caught in the winch line!!??!! (We have already discussed the scenario of a simple paper-clip)

Dual Batteries:

Sure, you can run the winch off of the cranking battery but... In an 'ideal' world, I would want to keep the SLI (Starting, Lighting & Ignition) battery seperate. It just saves you from the situation where you could be left stranded due to a flat battery!!!

You don't need a fancy battery management system, just a simple split charge relay... And you can then run all of your Aux kit off the other battery too! ;)

FWIW - Camel Trophy trucks had 2x batteries but wired in parallel (i.e. No split charge) but they do have EVERYTHING running off an isolator, next to the battery box.

M

[markusr]

New to the Forum. Long time Land Rover fan: 72 Rangie, Series 1 Disco, Freelander, Classic Rangie heavy mods, just bought my first Defender.
Wanted to fit my Warn high mount to my 2004 TD5 Def 90. Asked local auto electrician about using the starter post but he strongly advised against this. He said the newer starters are a lower draw config. Went to the trouble of running a fresh lead all the way back to the 2 batteries under the pass seat. While I was at it I put a heavy manual isolator switch forward of the centre cubby box to isolate the system. Works great and was worth the effort.

[tuesdayfox]

I understood the type you were referring to. I think they are just a complication. If you are worried about urban myths then disconnect the winch cable from the battery terminal +ve, -ve or both!

Getting to the original topic; you were down on using the +ve terminal of the starter motor but you then suggest putting a cheap switch into play with two extra terminations plus the switching contacts of a $12 piece of plastic... These are all possible points of voltage drop and current arc (fire risk). Or in your words "If that cable joint became resistive, it would heat up very quickly "
It is technically safer to bolt the winch cable to the starter motor +ve terminal than incorporate such a device.

I dont really care what path Campbell takes BUT he will NOT have any problems with a properly terminated connection at the starter motor +ve post.

Peace
Steve

Thanks Steve,

I am 100% with you. my spoties, my head lamps and my winch are all wired to the Alternator.
I am not a mechanic but a weekend handyman;
but if you check the electric diagram for the fender, you will know that the starter motor, battery and the alternator are in parallel circuit ( almost always the case for any car); when in parallel circuit, they will all share the same voltage.(don't worry about the voltage surge, there is ad voltage regulator built in the alternator )

and to me,the only concern will be whether the wires in the parallel circuit can handle the current of a Winch and I don't think it will be a problem for the start motor or Alternator.

:D
my 2cents
Martin

[LRH110]

Hi guys, cheers for all the feedback.
I ended up running a 32 square cable under back to the battery box, just for peace of mind, works well. Also interestingly enough, I did have to replace my starter however this was some time after I rewired the winch so not sure if it was caused by the winch or not! Anyway, cheers for the feedback.

Campbell