D4 Alternator

[DM Disco]

Hi can someone tell me how long it takes for the alternator in a 3ltr D4 to start charging, and what voltage should it get to.
I have a Piranha dual battery system with a yellow Optima 55ah under the bonnet. Had a bit of trouble finding a point to get a 12v accessory feed but got that sorted. The second battery wasn't charging so I went to Piranha in Bayswater and Allan Johnson and one of his autoelecs had a look and found that there wasn't enough voltage for the controller to start charging. This was after 5min and the car was already up to temp having been driven there. (the guys at Piranha were great, helpfully and didn't charge) Not so Doncaster Landrover service. called them to ask what to do and book the first 6 month service. Got told to come in in two weeks and no advise or comment on my problem at all.
So anyone out there who could help would be appreciated.

[drivesafe]

Hi DM, and your start-up voltage can be low for quite some time, I have had a few customers say their D4 did not start charging for well over 5 minutes after starting the motor.

But once it does start, the voltage will rise to a boost voltage of anything up tp 15.4v for up to 30 minutes.

Then your voltage will rise and fall with the load being put on the motor.

Accelerate and your voltage can drop to the low end of 12v.

Cruise or coast down hill and the voltage can go back up into the high 14v.

This is where problems occur with most ordinary battery isolators, they will either not cut in or will continually cut in and out as the D4’s operating voltage rises and falls.

[Graeme]

Make sure the 2nd battery's negative cable attaches to the body rather than to the original battery's negative terminal.

[DM Disco]

Thanks Drivesafe for the advise. You said that normal dual battery controllers can be a problem, are there units that suit the Disco ?
I want to have power to run the Engel in the car and I tow a 20ft van with 100ah calcium battery and 186ltr Dometic 3way fridge, so keeping the 2nd battery system charged is important. I did have this DBS in my GU Patrol and it worked, but the Patrol couldn't tow 1/2 the load te Disco does
Other problem is most days I drive 15 min to work so not much is getting charged !

Regards
David

[DM Disco]

Hi Graeme
I have attached the earth lead to the earth stud in the engine bay.
I got that of the forum when I was installing the system.

Thanks
David

[drivesafe]

Other problem is most days I drive 15 min to work so not much is getting charged !

Hi again and this includes your cranking battery.

As Graeme posted but also make sure they have not earthed your isolator to the neg terminal on the cranking battery.

What type and where is your auxiliary battery mounted?

[DM Disco]

Hi Drivesafe, the Aux battery is an Optima yellow top 55ah AGM and is mounted under the bonnet in front of the main battery. The earth on the second battery is connected to the earth stud on the inner guard in front of the main battery box. The Pos comes from the main battery to the dual batt controller then to the Aux batt, also off the Aux batt Pos is the cable to the Anderson plug. The Anderson plug neg is to an earth stud in the rear.
The control wire for the trigger wire for the dual batt controller is from a spare fuse slot in the engine bay.

Regards
David

[Graeme]

The control wire for the trigger wire for the dual batt controller is from a spare fuse slot in the engine bay.Why does it have a seperate trigger wire and why isn't it connected to the main battery positive supply?

[DM Disco]

Hi Drivesafe, the trigger wire has to be from a power source controlled from the car accessories circuit so it isolates the controller and Aux battery when the car power is off to protect the main battery.

Rewards
David

[Graeme]

Is the controller voltage sensing or just a relay operated when the sense wire has power? If voltage sensing, why doesn't it cut out when there's only battery level voltage rather than a charging voltage?

As a seperate issue, how have you determined that the empty fuse position has voltage with the ignition on?

[DM Disco]

Hi Graeme , I think that the wire is to isolate the controller, and the voltage is detected from the main cable connected to the main battery.
I used a multi meter to check the voltage from the spare fuse slots in the fuse box in the engine bay next to the main battery. The slot only had one terminal, assume the other side fitted in production when options order. Checked it when car was off , i.e. open door and bonnet with ignition off, 0 volts and when car ignition on 12volts.

Rears
David

[Graeme]

Is there power at the fuse position with the engine running? Is the voltage the same as at the main battery? When there is power, is there still power with the sense wire connected and if so, is it still the full battery voltage? Which unused fuse position are you using?

[DM Disco]

Hi Graeme, the fuse is F7 in the engine compartment. Looking from the front of the car it is the fourth from the back on the left row.
I have just started the car and the voltage at the main battery and the fuse are the same floating around 12.2 - 12.4v , the second battery is at 12.5v steady. The light on controller is flashing which I think shows it's active but not charging/connected, which makes sense.

Regards
David

[Graeme]

What's the voltage with the lights on and engine running? Some load should trigger some charging so after a while the voltage should increase enough for the aux battery to start receiving charge - it would be good to determine the cut-in voltage. I'll have a look at what F7 is meant for but it having the same voltage as the battery is a good start.

Edit: Fuse 7 has no info so can't tell from the handbook how or when its powered.

[DM Disco]

Hi Greame, The guys at Piranha said that it won't kick in until 13.8 - 14v. I haven't checked as It is taking 15 min plus for the voltage to get to a charing Level even if the car is already warm. Tomorrow I,ll have to take the car out of the garage and sit in the driveway running and check it so I don't gas myself waiting.
Seems like I need to do a lot more log trips to keep my batteries charged, Broome,The Kimberley, Alice Springs, I suppose that wouldn't too much of a struggle (I wish)

Regards
David

[Graeme]

...Seems like I need to do a lot more log trips to keep my batteries charged, Broome,The Kimberley, Alice Springs,
Yeah, some long trips like those would at least be worth a try...

How old is your vehicle and does it have the latest software? Mine's a late 09 build with a major s/w update in 2010.

I just checked some voltages. My VSR cut-in 13.7 cut-out 12.8
Before starting: Main 12.35 aux (AGM) 12.45 with the vehicle last run Fri a/n for an 8K run to the local PO then back.

Start engine & within a couple of seconds: 14.45 & VSR has connected
During the next few minutes 14.35 but momentarily dropping to 14.30
Lights on high beam & driving lights on: 14.38 steady for a few minutes
Lights off: 14.38 for the 1st few minutes but momentarily 14.55 or 14.35 before returning to 14.38 each time then gradually rising to 14.40
Several minutes later dropped to 14.35 then steady for at least another 5 minutes.
Edit: Engine stopped: main 12.65 (high freq cleaning in progress) aux 12.90 VSR is disconnected.

Is your voltmeter digital or analogue? Analogue meters are often not very accurate. Does your controller's indicator flash with the ignition on but the engine not started?

Edit: I just re-read your 1st post re Piranha verifying your low voltages. Your D4 charging has a problem.

[DM Disco]

Hi Graeme, the build date is Feb 2011 and not sure about software. It hasn't been for a service yet so it will be as from factory /dealer.
I am using a handheld digital meter which is fairly accurate.
I agree I think that my alternator is the problem , taking too long to come up to charging voltage.
I did find a Pdf on my DBS (link bellow) and 13.4v on the trigger wire is mentioned.
http://www.piranhaoffroad.com.au/media/pdf/DBE150S%20MICRO%20Aug%2008.pdf

I think my next step is to get an incar battery monitor to keep an eye on things, while I wait until the 16th to get Landrover to look at it.

Regards
David

[Graeme]

Perhaps only software rather than the alternator itself, but definitely a charging problem. Perhaps also worth taking along my voltages as an example of another 3.0 D4.

[DM Disco]

Hi Graeme , thank for the help, I will take my Ipad with your info when I get the car looked at.
Hope they are as helpfull as the people on this forum.
Again thanks

Regards
David

[drivesafe]

Hi david and do you have a display screen in the centre of the dash or just basic LCD.

If you have the full screen, bring up the “secret” info screen and check your operating voltages as you drive.

If you don’t have the full screen you can make up a low current extension lead and run it from the cranking battery terminals into the cab and connect it to your DMM.

Just idling in the driveway is no indication of whether your alternator voltage is OK or not.

You can use thin speaker wire but still put a small fuse in the positive wire, close to the battery terminal.

You can then get accurate voltage readings while driving.

[DM Disco]

Hi Drivesafe, I only have the LCD not the full satnav. I plan to get a voltmeter that can monitor both batteries. So I can get a better ideal of what going on.

Regards
David

[Graeme]

Just idling in the driveway is no indication of whether your alternator voltage is OK or not.
I cannot believe the charging system is working properly to only have 12.2V to 12.4V at idle (ie not charging at all) for just a minute or so, let alone for 15 minutes, even if it charges at 15V at higher revs on engine overrun.
Since fitting my dual battery LED status monitor I've been able to see that my vehicle always starts charging within 2 seconds of starting the engine. Any time my aux battery has been 12.3V or lower, as indicated by a particular LED on the monitor, I've seen its voltage rise the moment the main battery voltage rises above 12.3V, indicating that the voltage has exceeded the VSR cut-in voltage of 13.7V. My battery monitor uses dedicated power wires direct from each battery so no distorted voltages due to voltage drop.

[drivesafe]

I plan to get a voltmeter that can monitor both batteries. So I can get a better ideal of what going on

Hi David, if you are out to sort out whether you have a problem with your alternator, just set up a digital multi meter as I posted and if you find you have a problem with your charging, get your dealer to fix but under normal use, volt meters are next to useless.

If you are having so much trouble that you need a volt meter to keep track vehicle’s charging, it’s time to get the vehicle fixed but other wise, volt meters tell you very little about your batteries condition or state of charge.

Save your money and spend it on something that actually gives you some genuine benefit.

[roamer]

Hi David

I'm with Graeme on this your systems not normal (right)

Loading up to go away last couple of days and just got the "start motor battery low" signal

Started up and goes straight away to 13.7V (got touch screen) at idle, lift revs to 1000rpm and it goes to 14.6V, so seems like you have a problem,

I have a traxide dual battery system and did notice the neon flashing a day earlier which meant the cranker was going down then and the traxide had isolated itself (I think at 12.3V,, Tim can confirm )

Take it to your dealer they will sort it out for ya :angel:

PS
I have a KK with 320ahr batteries, and an Optima 55 in car (3lt), all worked great since new (Nov 09) on Traxide (in fact the Traxide was on my D3 for 3yrs first)

Cheers Ken

[RoverLander]

David,

I went through all the problems you are having when i installed a second battery system in my D4. The voltage moves all over the place in the D4. I did an outback trip and cruising on long flat roads the car would happily sit at 12.3 volts and therefore no charge to the second battery through the isolator that was waiting for more than 12.7.

I know drivesafe has other views which he will express. I converted to a dc to dc charger and other than slower charging time, i havent had a problem. Have a look at the Redarc website. There is also a long discussion on this forum as i tried to work all this out. Search for "beware second battery system" to find it.

Peter

[DM Disco]

Hi all,
A friend of mine has done a bit of research on my problem with the alternator and found the D4 3ltr diesel has a " voltage sensing, charge on demand alternator". Which means that when a second battery is connected via a dual battery controller that direct connects batteries the electronics seen the voltage of the second battery and can confuse the #*%# out itself. The alternator is designed to help save fuel /emmissions by only charging when the battery needs it, our when coasting. As I have an AGM optima second battery which hold a higher voltage than the cranking battery the system thinks its OK . Thats why my low battery light came on at the drive-in last week and I had to run the car for a while or it indicated it would shut itself down.(15-20min into the movie)
Peter's last post has my answer, a DC/DC charger for the second battery, as the alternator won't seem the second battery, just a load on the main battery therfore needing charging, I hope. This charger will also isolate the main battery to protect it.
I have fitted a parahna dual volt meter and when the dual battery system is connected the charging seemed eratic but when I disconnected it the system is charging how it is supposed to, as my mate Dave explained (he found info on a US site).
The alternator on te 3ltr diesel is supposed to be different to the D3 and 2.7ltr D4.
I am heading to Pirahna on Monday to run this by then and get a DC/DC charger system either Redarc or Ctec.
If I was running a fridge or some continious load that was drawing down the second battery my system may have worked better.
I will also put a DC/DC charger in my caravan this will protect all the batteries and help them charge properley as they are all different types,lead acid,AGM and calcium.


Hopefully this will solve my problem.

Reards

David

[discotwinturbo]

My redarc dc to dc charger works well.
I use a piranha battery monitor and voltages are stable on both batteries.....second battery slightly higher than the starter.

[DM Disco]

Hi Disotwinturbo, where did you mount your unit, I have my optima AGM mounted in front of the main battery so there's not a lot of space left.
The Piraha controller is on a vertical bracket in front of the Optima battery.

Regards

David

[Graeme]

As I have an AGM optima second battery which hold a higher voltage than the cranking battery the system thinks its OK
My aux battery is also AGM (not Optima though) yet my 3.0's voltages don't reflect yours. The 3.0's ecu-controlled charging is old news to a lot of people. I await reading about the outcome of a visit to your dealer.

Edit: Does your main battery charge properly if your aux battery is left disconnected for a few days?

[gghaggis]

Hi all,
Which means that when a second battery is connected via a dual battery controller that direct connects batteries the electronics seen the voltage of the second battery and can confuse the #*%# out itself. The alternator is designed to help save fuel /emmissions by only charging when the battery needs it, our when coasting. As I have an AGM optima second battery which hold a higher voltage than the cranking battery the system thinks its OK . Thats why my low battery light came on at the drive-in last week and I had to run the car for a while or it indicated it would shut itself down.(15-20min into the movie)


Huh??

We seem to have these discussions year in year out. We know how the charging system works - do a search and you'd find the info there by the bucket-load.

I sincerely doubt your Optima should have a higher resting voltage than the LR battery. If it does, something's wrong with one of the batteries. Get that seen to first before playing with the charging or isolation setup.

If you hook two batteries up of differing voltage and that in turn is hooked up to some form of generation system (doesn't really matter what), the voltages between the batteries will immediately equalise and charge will flow into what was the lower-voltage battery at a greater rate. Most modern batteries self-regulate their charge rate, but regardless, at some point the system will reach a steady-state and trickle-charge. Depending upon the type of dual battery controller you have, they may or may not be connected together at initial startup, but that's a separate issue (that has also been done to death).

Most of us here would agree that the simplest control system that works across all of the D3/D4 charging regimes is the Traxide. More thought and/or resources will be required to ensure other systems work in equivalent conditions, but it certainly can be done if you want to go down that route.

Cheers,

Gordon

[drivesafe]

Hi all,
A friend of mine has done a bit of research on my problem with the alternator and found the D4 3ltr diesel has a " voltage sensing, charge on demand alternator". Which means that when a second battery is connected via a dual battery controller that direct connects batteries the electronics seen the voltage of the second battery and can confuse the #*%# out itself.

Hi David and I’d guessing your mate is a mechanic, or a plumber, or an accountant.

He sure as hell wouldn’t want to be passing himself off as an auto electrician.

For a starter, unless the auxiliary battery’s negative terminal is connected directly to the D4’s cranking battery’s negative terminal, ( which is a NO-NO anyway ) there is absolutely no way the D4 can tell if the auxiliary battery is at a higher or lower State of Charge ( SoC ).

Now the reason for this is that there is a device fitted to the negative cable of the cranking battery, between the battery’s negative terminal and the earth stud on the side of the guard.

This device is used to monitor the cranking battery, so again unless the auxiliary battery’s negative is connected directly to the cranking battery’s negative terminal, the SoC of the auxiliary battery will have no effect on the way the D4’s electronics works regarding the charging of the cranking battery.

Next, I am so fed up with this crap that when an auxiliary/house battery is connected to a vehicles electrical system that the alternator knows this is happening.

This is nothing but TOTAL FANTASY.

The load created when connecting an auxiliary/house battery to a vehicle’s electrical system is no different to the load a set of driving lights will cause when they are turned on and turning your driving lights on has no effect on the D4’s ECU.

NOTE, this is very similar to how these set ups work in most vehicles, not just D4s.

Now to prove my point that the auxiliary battery does not effect the way D3 and D4s work, I have well over a thousand D3s world wide with my gear in them with no FANTASY problems and now with a few hundred D4s fitted up and with the exception of one vehicle which is playing whether the is a dual battery system connect or disconnect, the same thing, no FANTASY problems.

This info relates only to my isolators, as I know some other brands are causing problems.

[DM Disco]

Hi Graeme, I have disconnected the DB controller and all seems to be charging propperly.

No more FANTASY problems as some suggested. Don't know about anyone elses system, and I'm not an expert
(fyi friend has degrees in computer sciences/electronics),
All I know is that when the DB Controller in connected I am having trouble.
Sorry to waste everone elses time.

Regards
David

[discotwinturbo]

Hi Disotwinturbo, where did you mount your unit, I have my optima AGM mounted in front of the main battery so there's not a lot of space left.
The Piraha controller is on a vertical bracket in front of the Optima battery.

Regards

David

I actually have my agm mounted behind the passenger rear seat in front of the fridge. Charger next to it.
Regular Agms (not optima agms) dont appreciate excessive heat, and although the D4 spot in front of the main battery would be a good spot (cooler in that location than most cars .... Used a monitor to see what temps it hit), I chose to keep it in the back. Fridge runs longer due to less voltage drop....I always use big cable anyway.

[drivesafe]

Hi David and sorry mate, I don’t care what your mate’s credentials are, he knows nothing about how the D4 works and is just pointing you in the wrong direction.

If your alternator is constantly running below 13.0v, even when coasting, you need to talk to your dealer.

BTW folks, there is an upgrade coming supposedly to fix a number of D4s with this low operating voltage.

Apparently some do not rise back above 13+v when coasting and this is a problem.

Check out the UKD3 forum for more info.

[Graeme]

I have disconnected the DB controller and all seems to be charging propperly.
I assume you have checked voltages in arriving at this conclusion. What did you disconnect?

I can only assume there is something incorrect in the connection of your DB controller that is causing the load monitor on the negative terminal of the main battery to give incorrect readings that is upsetting the charging logic. Are you sure there is no direct connection to the main battery negative terminal?

Edit: It might be worth testing voltages with the DB sense wire connected directly to the main battery positive rather than to a switched source.

[CSBrisie]

drivesafe, can you tell me which section of disco3.co.uk?

[drivesafe]

Hi Stornoway and when I get a chance I’ll find the threads and post links to them.

Are you having low voltage problems?

The problem is not with every D4, it seems to only be occurring in a very small percentage but I have not come across anything that indicates which specific vehicles are effected and which are not.

PS if you are on the UKD3 site, keep an eye out for any posts by Wiggs, he is right into this and is a wealth of info.

[CSBrisie]

Yes, I am (classic "low battery - start engine" warning) but I am going to trickle charge the main battery for a day or so first as the car has had limited use (and a period of non use for two and a bit weeks when it was shipped up from Adeliade to Brisbane in December).

[drivesafe]

Hi again Stornoway, can I make a suggestion.

If your battery charger has a setting for Calcium/Calcium ( Ca/Ca ) batteries or if it has a “Boost” or Equalisation “ cycle, run your charger on this cycle and once the battery is charged, remove or turn the charger off, to allow the charge to rest, then repeat this cycle as many times as is convenient.

A single boost cycle is just not enough the fully charge a Ca/Ca cranking battery.

If your second battery is an Optima or another Ca/Ca battery, you can leave them connected while you charge.

[CSBrisie]

Thanks drivesafe, will do! :)

cheers

[jonesy63]

Tim - is this issue is limited to the 3L D4? IIRC, the 2.7L D4 has the same alternator as the D3.
Cheers,
Rob

[drivesafe]

Hi Rob, and going on the problems here and in the UK, it seems to be just with the 3L D4.

I’m waiting to hear how well the fix works in the UK when it is available.

[DRD]

Hi,
Changed the battery all ok so charged the battery with a smart charger for 24hrs and it has held 12.5 for about 2 weeks. Started the vehicle but the charge voltage remained at 12.1v but previously it would go to 13 - 14 in a couple of minutes
Any suggestions
Des

[drivesafe]

Hi Des, there is a known software issue with D4s, where the alternator is locked at 12.2v

It is a simple fix, carried out at any dealers.

[Graeme]

G'day Des,

There has been an occasional 3.0 alternator failing with no longer outputting full voltage, unlike 2.7 alternators that seem to fail by going short circuit.