D90 build - 35's min lift & track width,locked, rear winch?

[TheTinnie]

Hi, I just bought my new D90 2 weeks ago. I've got a few questions around recommended parts to fit it out which I've read either conflicting ideas or haven't found yet!

I have near new 35's I would like to make use of, I'm aware of the disadvantages and consequences of running 35's in general but not specifically for the defender

Is there anything similar to jks quick sway bar disconnects for the defender? Front and/or rear (might not matter with next question)

What's absolute minimum lift or bumpstop extension req'd to fit 35's? I have read up on driveline vibration issues just from going to OME 2" lift does this still hold true on MY12?

What's the optimal backspace for 16" x8 rims to keep within nsw track width increase limit (50mm) over the sawtooth alloy option on the puma?(widest avail factory option) Is a change in backspace even necessary or can fitting them be accomplished by changing flares and inner guards etc?

what are the most common lockers used - manual cable/electric or air leakers? :)

Is the rear axle/diff centre stronger than front set up? Would the rear diff be strong enough for 35's + locker without doing chromo axles (halfshafts) ?

is the re-gear actually required?keeping in mind the final drive is already better than what other vehicles on 4.10s have?

Any local Rear winch bar available WITH a tow hitch?

Apologies for long list of questions, I am sure I will have many more !

Thanks for your help & guidance!

[Jitterbug]

I run 35s on my 90 on 15 x 8 dynamic steel rims with a -25mm offset. I have +2" flexiflares as they stuck out over 2" with the standard flares. Mine has about 75mm of lift with no cutting of arches and standard bumpstops, not had any problems to date (not to say i wont in the future). No vibrations that i have noticed.

I feel like the drive ratio is fine, if anything slightly better (although I am running 3.9 V8 with extractors and wolf3D management). Never really felt that 1st Low was too high. You have the 6 speed so should be fine (mine is LT77).

At the moment I am running standard diffs and havent had any problems. Arriving today i have some new diffs complete with front and rear air lockers, maxi drive 24 spline axles, pegged and heat treated R&Ps and HD drive flanges.

From my own research (not from personal experience) standard axles + lockers and 35s wont last too long.


It sounds like it will quite the weapon if you do all that to it!

[Loubrey]

If that's the plan and you're not bothered with waranty (yours is a MY12 Puma?), the first step would be very good aftermarket wide yoke propshafts. Puma Defenders have a unique angle from their T'case to the diffs that will cause you endless hassle with installing a lift while still running the original propshafts.

Just be aware that LR Australia has a general dim view on any driveline modifications and they will more than likely give you difficulty with fitting the tyres even without any of the other mods you're planning...

[Psimpson7]

Hi, I just bought my new D90 2 weeks ago. I've got a few questions around recommended parts to fit it out which I've read either conflicting ideas or haven't found yet!

I have near new 35's I would like to make use of, I'm aware of the disadvantages and consequences of running 35's in general but not specifically for the defender

Is there anything similar to jks quick sway bar disconnects for the defender? Front and/or rear (might not matter with next question)

Not that I know of.

What's absolute minimum lift or bumpstop extension req'd to fit 35's? I have read up on driveline vibration issues just from going to OME 2" lift does this still hold true on MY12?

I have a 2" spring lift and that is all. It will depend though on what size tyres in terms of width and the offset on the rims. I got away with running 35/10.5 15s without too much drama on a -25 wheel, but my 35/13.5's had a nasty habit of removing my flares, and folding up my front wing skins on the same wheels.

What's the optimal backspace for 16" x8 rims to keep within nsw track width increase limit (50mm) over the sawtooth alloy option on the puma?(widest avail factory option) Is a change in backspace even necessary or can fitting them be accomplished by changing flares and inner guards etc?

what are the most common lockers used - manual cable/electric or air leakers? :)

I would look to Ashcroft as my first choice. Avoid KAM, who knows if they are even in business this week. ARB's are good too. I have had them since 05 with basically no issues.

Is the rear axle/diff centre stronger than front set up? Would the rear diff be strong enough for 35's + locker without doing chromo axles (halfshafts) ?

If you are gentle yes it will survive. 90's arent so hard on diffs as 110's. I have never broken a cw+p in mine, but did manage to clean break the layshaft in the gearbox! The long rear axle is the one that will break first.

is the re-gear actually required?keeping in mind the final drive is already better than what other vehicles on 4.10s have?

I would say maybe not, but I dont have a puma so am not sure what the gearing is like. Mine drives better in terms of gearing on the larger tyres on the road, but they are heavy, etc etc

Any local Rear winch bar available WITH a tow hitch?

Not that I know of. I made mine. Devon4x4 and North off road supply replacement winch mount rear cross members, but these likely wouldnt be set up for receiver hitches as they arent legal in the UK - I have seen bolt on rear winch mounts but these hammer the departure angle.

Apologies for long list of questions, I am sure I will have many more !

Thanks for your help & guidance!

See bold text!

ps, as Loubrey has commented, LR may not be too keen on keeping your warranty!

pps I ran 33's twin locked on standard axles/cv's for years with zero breakages.

[TheTinnie]

Thanks for your insight, I’ve done all of this on my JK Wrangler so just trying to figure out the best way to approach it on the Defender

The standard offset is 0mm on the 16x7” rims though isn’t it? So if you increase rim width by an inch AND lower offset by -25mm the effect on track width increase is going to be 75mm which is 25mm over the engineering requirements here in NSW (unless the new rules allow greater than 50mm with sign off?)

Could the 75mm lift to clear the 35’s be done as a combination of 50mm (2”) lift + 1” extended bump stops and/or cutting or pumping of arches rather than go straight to 3” of spring lift?

Jitterbug – how long have you been running around on standard diffs for??

Has anyone dropped the transfer case down with a spacer kit to alleviate the driveline angle issue?

[TheTinnie]

i will measure the exact width of my tyres, they actually are 35" tall (eg. unlike BFG KM2's) but not 100% sure on the 12.5 width accuracy!

let me know if this info should go / is already elsewhere:

MY12 gearing

Transmission type GFT MT-82 (6 Speed Manual)
Four wheel drive system type LT230Q Transfer Box

Transmission ratios
1st :1 5.441
2nd :1 2.839
3rd :1 1.721
4th :1 1.223
5th :1 1.000
6th :1 0.742
Reverse :1 4.89

Final drive ratio :1 3.54:1
Transfer box ratio (High/Low) :1 1.211 / 3.269

Overall Gearing
1st (High / Low) :1 23.325 / 62.965
2nd (High / Low) :1 12.171 / 32.854
3rd (High / Low) :1 7.378 / 19.916
4th (High / Low) :1 5.243 / 14.153
5th (High / Low) :1 4.287 / 11.572
6th (High / Low) :1 3.181 / 8.587
Reverse (High / Low) :1 21.156 / 57.109

[Loubrey]

Thanks for your insight, I’ve done all of this on my JK Wrangler so just trying to figure out the best way to approach it on the Defender

The standard offset is 0mm on the 16x7” rims though isn’t it? So if you increase rim width by an inch AND lower offset by -25mm the effect on track width increase is going to be 75mm which is 25mm over the engineering requirements here in NSW (unless the new rules allow greater than 50mm with sign off?)

Could the 75mm lift to clear the 35’s be done as a combination of 50mm (2”) lift + 1” extended bump stops and/or cutting or pumping of arches rather than go straight to 3” of spring lift?

Jitterbug – how long have you been running around on standard diffs for??

Has anyone dropped the transfer case down with a spacer kit to alleviate the driveline angle issue?

The standard offset on Defender rims (alloys) is +30mm, so -25mm will have you running in the spats with normal tyres...

[TheTinnie]

ok thanks for that - i was off in my calc last night, increasing rim width by 1 inch (25mm) and decreasing offset by 25mm (pushing centreline of rim out to the flares by +12.5mm each side) only has a 50mm total impact on track

the saw tooth / steel wheel track is 1511mm so in NSW you can go 25mm more than that with out engineering sign off

standard track is 1486 on the normal alloys + 25mm = saw tooth/steel track + 25mm allowance works perfectly if i can find +5mm offset rims :D

[LowRanger]

To fit 35x12.5 16 tyres you will need rims with at least -20mm offset and you will need to adjust your lockstops.Anything less and your tyres will foul.Unless you purchase custom rims,most of the rims in this range are -25mm offset.
Also fitting 35x12.5 tyres they will foul on the body and if they don't,then your suspension isn't utilising its full compression.

[TheTinnie]

ok, would it not then be possible to limit compression by extending bumpstops and therefore not need the additional offset ?

so perhaps anywhere between 0mm and -20mm offset + extended bumps

surely someone must have had 35's engineered in nsw already

[Jitterbug]

Jitterbug – how long have you been running around on standard diffs for??



Only had this set up for a couple of months. A few trips into the glasshouse mountains (a lot of mud) and a trip up the beach in soft sand has seen no problems. Towed a mates Evo1 race car (maybe 1.4tonne inc trailer) with no issues either.

And i had to adjust my steering stops to stop the tyres rubbing on the chassis at full lock. Still turns tighter than either my friends 79 series cruiser or TJ jeep, both on 285/75s, so not lost too much.

[LowRanger]

ok, would it not then be possible to limit compression by extending bumpstops and therefore not need the additional offset ?

so perhaps anywhere between 0mm and -20mm offset + extended bumps

surely someone must have had 35's engineered in nsw already

Why would you want to extend your bumpstops that far that you limit your suspension travel in compression?
I have 35's and a genuine 75mm lift and still I had to trim the guards,because I make use of all the available travel that I can.It isn't just the guards that hit,it will hit the front radius arms,unless the lock stops are adjusted.It can hit the rear spring perch on full compression,this is why you need a large offset.Fitting 35's PROPERLY to a Defender isn't just a matter of fitting some tyres and a 50mm spring lift.It is a whole conglomerate of things that need to be done that all compliment each other to give the proper outcome.There will be people out there that say that is all they have done,but the suspension can't be fully functional with just these mods.

[Loubrey]

The extensive mods you seem to require will require a LOT of aftermarket parts as LowRanger pointed out. Some actual advice on sourcing all this gear you'll do well to correspond with Devon 4x4 in England. Serious offsets and large tyres needs ammended flares as well as a host of other gear and serious lifts need altered trailing, radius arms, propshafts etc.

These guys build competion trucks for events like the Malaysian Rainforest Challenge and they are very efficient with their international mail order service.

Devon 4x4 (http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=1&Itemid=39)

[TheTinnie]

yep i understand that's why i'm asking now!

Wayne - limiting travel is to keep the track width legal/engineerable in NSW. any more than 25mm needs an engineer's cert and an engineer will only pass up to a 50mm total increase over the widest avail factory track width. i am also trying to squeeze the 35's on with as little lift as possible. anyone could throw a 3, 4 or 6 inch lift at something and fit 35's on - but getting it cert'd by an engineer is a different question

extending bump stops by however much is necessary would also stop them from hitting the spring perch

think i may need to buy some adjustable bumps!

[TheTinnie]

thanks Lou - i have read a bit on the Devon 4x4 site. the 90 with the Scorpion rear winch bar is what got me thinking to buy a 90 initially

[Psimpson7]

Jusy remember that fitting 35's on a 110 is slightly different to a 90, for one they only have 6" rear springs unlike a 110 which has 7"

This means that I have over 2.5" clearance at ride height between the spring perch and the inside face of my 35/13.5 on -25 wheels - I have never ever had them rub. I also run 33's (255/85/16) on a 0 offset wheel and they have never rubbed either. ( I just went and measured it on the drive)

I also dont run extended bump stops and on my 90 IME they havent been necessary.

On the rear, at full compression, the top layer of paint gets taken off the underside of the lip of the wheel arch (plastic arch removed) and they rub clean the under side of the wheel box reinforcing in a couple of spots.

The front gave more issues, but in terms of straight travel its fine, the issue I had was with full lock and full bump.

I have extended arches fitted, a coule of inches higher up. I used to remove the original ones before driving on the large tyres.

My 35's are huge though (and play tyres only)

[LowRanger]

yep i understand that's why i'm asking now!

Wayne - limiting travel is to keep the track width legal/engineerable in NSW. any more than 25mm needs an engineer's cert and an engineer will only pass up to a 50mm total increase over the widest avail factory track width. i am also trying to squeeze the 35's on with as little lift as possible. anyone could throw a 3, 4 or 6 inch lift at something and fit 35's on - but getting it cert'd by an engineer is a different question

extending bump stops by however much is necessary would also stop them from hitting the spring perch

think i may need to buy some adjustable bumps!

Yes I am fully aware of the legalities in NSW,I worked in the trade for over 30 years.But what you are suggesting is basically not going to happen.You will be at you maximum allowable lift (50mm) with just the springs,then you need to take into account the lift caused by the change in tyre size.and then with only 50mm lift you WILL have the tyres fouling somewhere when the suspension is cycled through its full motion,including when the front wheels are on full lock.And any fouling is an automatic failure as far as engineering goes.
Also when the vehicle is engineered it is driven and given a "swerve" test,extending bump stops that far that they inhibit the travel of the suspension,can and will affect the way that the vehicle handles during the "swerve" test.
To clear 35's ,you will need to trim the guards and add wider flares,and you will then require at least 50mm spring lift.35x10.5r 16's will give you a bit more clearance than 35x 12.5r 16's but are much harder to find.
The easiest way to engineer 35's on a Defender is to fit Portals,but the cost to most is prohibitive.
Some of us have been through all these processes over a long period of time,unfortunately it is now harder than ever to get things through engineering,down to the point that there are now fewer people doing the testing.
The problem when trying to fit 35's on a Defender and "keeping it legal" is the fact that you need to add so much offset in the rims,to allow the tyres to clear both the suspension and the body,through the suspensions full motion.It would be ok if they made 35" cheese cutters,but unfortunately 35's are inherently wide.
The best size tyre for a Defender,I think is 255/85/16 which is 33",which presents no problems.
Having said that,I love my 35's,but I had to be prepared to do all the mods properly that allowed everything to work the way they should.

[TheTinnie]

thanks Wayne. so could you theoretically go up to -45mm offset then? (which would be 50mm additional track width than the saw tooth/steel option) to clear them? - that's if a rim exists greater than -25mm offset?!?!?

50mm total lift is the maximum lift without sign off isn't it? if i am going to have to cert the additional track & additional lift that restriction wouldn't apply i thought

i'd be keen to check your defender out @ 75mm lift to see the bits that scrub

[TheTinnie]

I also dont run extended bump stops and on my 90 IME they havent been necessary.

On the rear, at full compression, the top layer of paint gets taken off the underside of the lip of the wheel arch (plastic arch removed) and they rub clean the under side of the wheel box reinforcing in a couple of spots.


is no bumps and rubbing with the 90 with 13.5 wide 35's or the 33's? 13.5 is crazy! 33's that wide would be enough IMO

[LowRanger]

Jusy remember that fitting 35's on a 110 is slightly different to a 90, for one they only have 6" rear springs unlike a 110 which has 7"

This means that I have over 2.5" clearance at ride height between the spring perch and the inside face of my 35/13.5 on -25 wheels - I have never ever had them rub. I also run 33's (255/85/16) on a 0 offset wheel and they have never rubbed either. ( I just went and measured it on the drive)

I also dont run extended bump stops and on my 90 IME they havent been necessary.

On the rear, at full compression, the top layer of paint gets taken off the underside of the lip of the wheel arch (plastic arch removed) and they rub clean the under side of the wheel box reinforcing in a couple of spots.

The front gave more issues, but in terms of straight travel its fine, the issue I had was with full lock and full bump.

I have extended arches fitted, a coule of inches higher up. I used to remove the original ones before driving on the large tyres.

My 35's are huge though (and play tyres only)
Pete
I realise that the rear springs on a 90 are only 6" and while you may have 2.5" of clearance at ride height,when you cycle the suspension,particularly in crossover situations where the wheels tend to walk forward/backward,the clearance is very minimal at best, and what most people don't take into account,is that the higher you raise the suspension,the more the spring perches come into calculations.As far as just touching the lips and underside of the wheel arch is concerned,that is an automatic failure for engineering purposes.And I agree that the fronts are more of a problem.To save all the problems I think it is easier to just run the 255/85/16's as an everyday tyre and run the 35's when out playing.
Which is what I was saying earlier.
Trying to get it engineered in NSW will be very costly.
I have followed the evolution of your 90 up to its present state,and I must say "I like it" ;)Like it a lot as a matter of fact.:D
How do you like the underdrive?I have just fitted mine,but haven't had a chance to drive it:(

[LowRanger]

is no bumps and rubbing with the 90 with 13.5 wide 35's or the 33's? 13.5 is crazy! 33's that wide would be enough IMO

Pete was talking about his 35's being 13.5" wide.His 33's are 255/85/16's

And I believe that he is running standard bump stops NOT "no" bump stops:eek:

[Psimpson7]

Yep as Wayne says I am running std bumps and my 33s are just 255'85's

My reference to the smaller springs and measuring the clearance was just as information really. I know how the axles move, but put the measurement up in case anyone with a 110 could measure a comparison really. I think the 110 would have just under 1.5" clearance on the same tyres, which as a percentage is a big change.

90's dont tend to rub the spring seats atall. Speaking from experience. 110's I agree do.

Thanks for the kind words too Wayne. It has been a long process, and involved a lot of broken parts! Underdrive is really cool. Only used it twice so far, but then I have only used the car twice really!

With it rubbing the paint on the under side of the rear arch lips, it wont do it if you jack stuff up. Only in fairly serious situations when it really loads up.

next time I have it offroad, I will flex it up on the back and measure the clearance to the spring seats.

I would actually like to lower my car an inch but that would be very hard work

[LowRanger]

Pete
I will take some measurements when it dries out here:(
I would like to lower mine as well,but I have just had my vehicle weighed on all 4 corners and fitted new front springs,which are a big improvement over the old Dobinson Flexi coils.So I am not keen to spend more at the moment,just to lower it an inch.

I really like the new look of the 90 with the new barwork and fenders,and I like the look of the winch bar now with the ends turned up,looks all business now:twisted:
I am looking forward to getting out in mine and trying the underdrive,but the weather looks like it may be a while before that happens,as the tracks are way too wet down here to get out and about.As I don't want to go out and chop things up:eek:
But when I do eventually get out for a play,I will post up some pics

[TheTinnie]

good news with 13.5 wide clearing on a 90 thanks

Yes, by "no bumps" i mean no rubbing with no bump stop extensions

I picked up my 90 on Saturday with 40km on the clock, 120km in it was going through it's first taste of mud on the way out to Wheeny Creek.

I was pretty nervous to see what it would or wouldn't do on the rock steps but we were surprised considering it's completely stock

[Loubrey]

Mate, it’s not just brand loyalty when I tell you that you've got to spend a LOT of money on a Wrangler to get it close to the ability of a stock 90.

Obviously your own choices on your own car, but there is really no need to go absolutely radical with the mods before you get used to the 90’s abilities. Explore the limits yourself and chose your mods to overcome those when you find them. I can guarantee you that you’ll be impressed how far you’ll have to push to find those limits...

A very moderate lift coupled with 285/75/16 or 255/85/16 will give you as much diff clearance as you’ll ever need outside competition standards. Spend some money on protection and armour to prevent damage and that car will take you anywhere you wish to go!

[TheTinnie]

i said surprising not mind blowing! - we were doing the easiest of the 5 options up the steps!!

i do like how high 1st feels at least like low 2nd. will run them side by side and see

[Loubrey]

Pity they don't do Land Rover Experience here in Australia. The guys out at Eastnor Castle, Herefordshire would be able to show you what "mind blowing" is with a stock Defender 90...

[flagg]

What about the rear winch? I've looked at this.. but my fuel tank would need to be made smaller.. (in a 110..)

[Psimpson7]

I managed to fit one in mine with a bit (lot) of work. Its not impossible

[TheTinnie]

Rear winch i was hoping there would be a better designed rear bar that still retains a tow hitch. i like the devon/ X6/Scorpion??(not sure what to call it) bar below:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/777.jpg

Or I was thinking this which would retain departure angle:

http://www.extreme4x4.co.uk/acatalog/bedtray2L.jpg

http://www.extreme4x4.co.uk/acatalog/bedtray3L.jpg

http://www.extreme4x4.co.uk/acatalog/BED_MOUNTED_REAR_WINCH_TRAY.html

would need to fit the gas struts on the rear door to keep the thing open at all angles

i like this idea, but too much work i imagine:

Extreme 4x4 Ltd RECESSED REAR WINCH TRAY (http://www.extreme4x4.co.uk/acatalog/RECESSED_REAR_WINCH_TRAY.html)

[isuzutoo-eh]

Fit a Rijidij or similar wheel carrier, the locking pin will keep the door open at all angles :)