Life of Puma Rear Diff's

[clubagreenie]

So it looks a great quality casting. Will it fit other model housings? (D1-2/RRC/series?).

Apart from rear cover clearance (and bolt pattern plus other I haven't thought of) is there a reason it couldn't be turned "upside down" to be a hi pinion?

[Slunnie]

So it looks a great quality casting. Will it fit other model housings? (D1-2/RRC/series?).

Apart from rear cover clearance (and bolt pattern plus other I haven't thought of) is there a reason it couldn't be turned "upside down" to be a hi pinion?
I'm not sure if they need to be setup to properly lubricate the pinion bearings, but otherwise the diff would rotate backwards. CW slot is also in the wrong spot.

[platebasher]

Hi there,we have a clunk in rear diff wich i first noticed with about 11000km on it, out of warranty ,have been to transmision specialist,they said its normal,went to landrover specialist and they took it for drive,checked it out and said it is the axles/splines etc that make it clunk,about a grand to put hd axles etc into it.it has only 17000km on it now,will get that fitted soon,hopefully will fix it!

[ashtrans]

Just as I think it through, it really sounds like its going to be an excellent diff, like really strong compared to Rover and beyond that of those Toy 8" conversions too.

If you don't mind me asking:

Is this setup that you're developing able to be used in front applications, so provides clearance for the tie rod also or has it been designed as purely a HD rear diff option?

You were saying previously that it accepts other Rover type hemispheres - eg old style ARB, Maxi etc with holes drilled out to a larger dia.

Does the pinion use Rover 4 bolt or 3 bolt flanges.

Which ratios do you expect to be available?

Is this something suitable for upgrading half shafts to Toy 30 spline, D60 35 spline if clearance etc?

Is it suitable for Rover housings also or only P38 type?

Sorry for all of the questions, I just think this is such a great development for LandRovers.

Hi Slunnie,

It has just been designed for the 110 rear, P38/Wolfe type housing so will not fit the front,

Yes you can fit any rover type diff if you drill out the crown wheel holes for the bigger bolts,

I guess you can fit the 3 or 4 bolt flange but you would only want the 3 bolt in a disco which it will not fit as discos have the rover diff not the P38 type,

Ratio is 3.54 but not with the rover count of 46/13, we are using 39/11,

You may get the toy 30 spline in but not the 35 spline as its still a rover centre and these will not go that big,

Just the P38 housing,

The issue with designing something like this is deciding where to draw the line, all the options you mentioned had to weighed up,

P38 or rover or both ?
Stock 24 spline or bigger ?
Existing locker or custom ?

We didn't want to reinvent the force 9 axle, there is little point in making it fit the front as the overall axle will not be stronger as you have the 24 spline shafts and you have clearance issues with the track rod and it may be vulnerable being a low pin,

It made sense to use our existing air locker as we have not sold about 1400 without one single failure,

The HD 24 spline shafts are OK for 95% of vehicles, the weak link on the 110 rear is the ring and pinion design so this is what we have focused on improving,

Dave

[Slunnie]

Excellent, thanks Dave.

[Bush65]

Hi there,we have a clunk in rear diff wich i first noticed with about 11000km on it, out of warranty ,have been to transmision specialist,they said its normal,went to landrover specialist and they took it for drive,checked it out and said it is the axles/splines etc that make it clunk,about a grand to put hd axles etc into it.it has only 17000km on it now,will get that fitted soon,hopefully will fix it!
Spline wear has been a known issue going back some years. Converting from greased wheel bearings to oiled overcomes wear issues for bearings and splines. Some aftermarket axles utilise longer splines as well.

[n plus one]

Spline wear has been a known issue going back some years. Converting from greased wheel bearings to oiled overcomes wear issues for bearings and splines. Some aftermarket axles utilise longer splines as well.

Yep, mine used to rip through the splines until I fitted HD shafts and flanges and went to oil lube.

It's also worth noting that a 'clunk' from a Puma's rear diff might also simply be the loctite/bolt/flange issue - which is well documented elsewhere in the forum.

[ashtrans]

Hi all,

For those that have not read the whole thread, we have designed and made a replacement diff assembly for the 110 rear,

Stock ratio
New housing
Hypoid ring and pinion
Bigger crown wheel bolts
Bigger end cap bolts

Can be fitted with any 24 spline rover (not P38) centre,

Due to the longer pinion the propshaft will have to be shortened,

Well we have built the first one up and it looks quite good, assembled no problem,

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/1065.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/1066.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/1067.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/1068.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/1069.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/1070.jpg

Hope to be testing very soon,

[Slunnie]

I really wish these came with 4:11 or similar!

[newhue]

Dave, I think I have missed something. Please don't take it the wrong way as I'm intrigued.

Why only a Rover, and not P38.

With Defenders coming with a P38 rear wasn't that the idea. An upgrade of the standard diff. Where as now a whole diff replacement is required.

Do Disco's 1 and 2's? come with rear rover diffs suitable for a donor? Do they swap straight in? Swapping a front is too much hassle for most.

[uninformed]

Dave, I think I have missed something. Please don't take it the wrong way as I'm intrigued.

Why only a Rover, and not P38.

With Defenders coming with a P38 rear wasn't that the idea. An upgrade of the standard diff. Where as now a whole diff replacement is required.

Do Disco's 1 and 2's? come with rear rover diffs suitable for a donor? Do they swap straight in? Swapping a front is too much hassle for most.

I think there may be some confusion (at least I might be :D)

this new Ashtrans diff is an upgrade for the weak P38 type, mostly for the rear of later 110/130 (Some Td5 onwards) Note, no 90s have this diff fitted (dont say wolf either :p)

It uses the stock P38 type axle housing
It has a NEW cast 3rd housing
It uses a Rover type diff Center
It has a brand new design, hypoid Ring and Pinion
It will require the stock propshaft to be modded due to the pinion and therefore the cast center being longer.

But will it use the stock P38 type axle shafts?

regarding your "whole diff replacement" comment Newhue, are you saying the entire axle assembly or just the 3rd member section? This new Ashcroft diff does not require a whole new axle assembly, aka rover type axle housing, and is an upgrade of the standard diff. Problem is, the standard diff is of a design that the weak link can not be improved internally or within the 3rd section. This is why they have designed a whole new casting. This allows a longer pinion with more seperation between the pinion bearings (one of the big P38 type problems) and it also allows them to make a hypoid gear set for a much stronger ring and pinon design (another weak point for the P38 type). Regardless of which way you went, a carrier (diff center) upgrade would have been on the cards as the P38 type isnt great.

This is a bolt in upgrade, yes a little propshaft work but not a big deal in the scheme of things.

cheers
Serg

[Bush65]

When people use the term diff, they usually do not mean the differential but something else that must be inferred by the context or some other cue from the post.

In the last post from newhue I'm clueless as to what he is stating/asking. Sorry, if any offense is taken, none was intended, but is how it is.

[uninformed]

When people use the term diff, they do not mean the differential but something else that must be inferred by the context or some other cue from the post.

In the last post from nuehue I'm clueless as to what he is stating/asking. Sorry, if any offence is taken, none was intended, but is how it is.

communication is the key to life and terminology the key to communicating......I strugle with terminology alot (lack of knowledge) but I do try.

[ashtrans]

Hi,

Serg is spot on, I think the confusion is from the terminology I used,

You don't have to change the axle housing, the new HD diff is an easy bolt on,

The 'rover' part I referred to is the diff centre that we use in the diff assembly,

We used the rover centre as opposed to the P38 centre partly to get the offset we needed for the new gears and partly as there are far more options available for the rover type,

Hope that makes more sense !

Dave

[Tomo]

I see the brass pipework in the photos (on previous page) Is that for a locker?

What are the differences between 'rover' diff and 'P38' diff? I thought they were both rover diffs? I know what a salisbury looks like but I cannot tell the diff (haha) between 'rover' or 'P38'.

I guess the take home msg is that Ashtrans should soon have a nice relatively easy upgrade package for post sailsbury defenders (late TD5 - Puma)

Nice to know for the future, however personally I wont be looking for one till the original diff craps out (original diff 80K and perfect, It does get an easy life...)

[newhue]

That's all it is, confusion of the written word. I misinterpreted Dave's statement "can be fitted to any 24 spline rover (not P38) centre". As not fit any P38, only rover housings. Where as I should have read it as a total nose casting had been made to fit onto a P38 housing.
This is why I asked, my apologies for not knowing exact terminology. Or frustrating anyone.

[uninformed]

Newhue, dont let it happen again :p

Dave, I know it would probably be normal to upgrade the axle shafts when getting your new diff. But in a pinch, will stock P38 type axle shafts work? Im wondering if the new carrier, based on the rover type is narrower, thus requiring longer shafts?

[ashtrans]

Hi,

yes it's fine with the stock shafts, HD ones are optional, so if you already have HD ones, ours or HTE they can be reused,

Dave

[Drover]

Just caught up on this thread....what great news :thumbsup:

I already have Ashcroft's half shafts and drive flanges so I am part way there.

Dave, any idea on when this new centre might be available to the public ?

Cheers
Grant

[Sheppie]

2009 Puma 67k. About to get my second set of half shafts under warranty - no noise from the diff just a fair bit of freeplay in the system.

Not really sure the shafts are the issue though - any thoughts?


Ive got 16kon the clock now and all good but there is a fair bit of free play in the output shaft.
release clutch - clunk- drive :)

[Drover]

Just thought I would share what I know.....hope I'm not speaking out of turn.

I have been in contact with Ashcroft's (Dave) via email.

There are currently 2 complete diff centre's here in Australia for "real world testing" both of these diff's should fitted up next week into the 2 lucky Defenders.

There are also 20 new castings being machined up now and should be ready in about a month.

Providing the testing goes well and it should, they will available shortly after.

These new diff centre's really sound like the ducks guts and will finally solve all the issues with P38 rear diff.

Hip hip to Ashcroft's for taking on this huge project.

[n plus one]

Just thought I would share what I know.....hope I'm not speaking out of turn.

I have been in contact with Ashcroft's (Dave) via email.

There are currently 2 complete diff centre's here in Australia for "real world testing" both of these diff's should fitted up next week into the 2 lucky Defenders.

There are also 20 new castings being machined up now and should be ready in about a month.

Providing the testing goes well and it should, they will available shortly after.

These new diff centre's really sound like the ducks guts and will finally solve all the issues with P38 rear diff.

Hip hip to Ashcroft's for taking on this huge project.

Yep, and I've got a pretty good idea that at least one of them is being tested under a fairly heavily loaded 130 - so that should be a good shake down.

[djam1]

OK guys just to address the elephant in the room
I know the Puma diff has its issues but the celebration of the fitment of what is basically a Rover carrier into the back of a Defender is unusual to say the least.
The change over to the Salisbury in 1969 (ish) was for a reason and how many people trash the rear diff in their Range Rover Classic?
Run a Defender at GVM surely this will be more stressful than a classic

I respect Ashcroft's engineering prowess immensely so I presume there is something I am missing?

Ducks for cover:wasntme:

[Slunnie]

OK guys just to address the elephant in the room
I know the Puma diff has its issues but the celebration of the fitment of what is basically a Rover carrier into the back of a Defender is unusual to say the least.
The change over to the Salisbury in 1969 (ish) was for a reason and how many people trash the rear diff in their Range Rover Classic?
Run a Defender at GVM surely this will be more stressful than a classic

I respect Ashcroft's engineering prowess immensely so I presume there is something I am missing?

Ducks for cover:wasntme:

The carrier is just what the crownwheel attaches to, and when using an aftermarket carrier these are significantly stronger than standard, ie something else will break. The problem with rover and p38 diffs is the meshing area between the pinion and the crownwheel is quite small and the gear teeth break. This is partly due to the spiral bevel setup with a centred pinion, and its also due to the increased flex within the p38 type diffs carrier when compared to Rover and aftermarket carriers. The new Ashcroft diff is a new hypoid design where the pinion is offset and this increases the contact area between the pinion and crownwheel, so reduces to load any any specific area of the tooth.. Ie it's stronger. The hypoid crownwheel and pinion can't be fitted to a rover diff, it's a whole new setup that ashcroft are making, except it uses a normal rover carrier in it.

Check this comparison. On the left is a Toyota 8" hypoid CW/P and on the right is a Rover 8.5" spiral bevel CW/P.

My apologies, I'm not sure how to do the picture thing with an iPad, but below is a link to the picture

http://www.slunnie.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pid=99&fullsize=1

Out of interest, the Salisbury is also hypoid but obviously has a larger CW/P but I'd expect with the new Ashcroft diff that you will snap both HD axles before the diff fails.

[Symo]

I killed my rear diff after about 80k. My fault not the cars really. It should have lasted longer but I did give it a real hard time on one hill. Blew the uni joints, buckled the center of the rear wheel and the diff got noisy.

I just found a good second hand sailsbury,had it rebuilt, fitted some maxi bits (axles and locker) and now I don't think even I could kill it. It's under the back of the puma now, silent and working well - I'm a happy camper again!!!

[Bush65]

OK guys just to address the elephant in the room
I know the Puma diff has its issues but the celebration of the fitment of what is basically a Rover carrier into the back of a Defender is unusual to say the least.
The change over to the Salisbury in 1969 (ish) was for a reason and how many people trash the rear diff in their Range Rover Classic?
Run a Defender at GVM surely this will be more stressful than a classic

I respect Ashcroft's engineering prowess immensely so I presume there is something I am missing?

Ducks for cover:wasntme:
Further to slunnies post.

The change over to the Salisbury way back then was for a reason, but IMHO it was and is overkill (Land Rover have never had the ability to call on a good range of parts like larger manufacturers). The only weakness with the Salisbury is the 24 spline half shafts (rover specified stub axles and shafts), but they are based on the Dana 60 and these can be had with 30, 35 & 40 spline half shafts.

When Land Rover changed over to P38 style rear axle, it was also for a reason - they reckoned it was easier (cheaper most likely) to strengthen the P38 axle housing for MOT than it was for the Salisbury housing.

The P38 is just an later upgrade of the RRC, not a commercial load carrying vehicle like a Defender 110 or 130. The design of the P38 diff is poor, the weaknesses were probably attempts to keep costs down. They could just as easily designed it better, and if the initial goal was a replacement for the Salisbury, instead of the RRC rear diff, then things would probably be different. The only improvement the P38 style diff has over the RRC is the 4 pinion diff.

Ashcroft redesigned the P38 style diff to be a lot stronger, without being overkill like Salisbury, but keeping costs practical for low volume production, and making it a relatively simple bolt in change over. Because of the extent of the initial P38 design weakness, it may not be as cheap or simple as people would like.

Over the potential life of a 110 or 130 used for what they are intended, then one Ashcroft diff will most likely see out several P38 diffs. Then the cost benefit starts to make sense.

[LoveB]

Wonder how much the ashcroft one will cost...

theres a slight whine in james with only 7k km. more pronounced in gear/off power.

Might just do dealer replacements for the life of the warranty while i save pennies for the ashcroft one..

[Gerokent]

With the change of centres, will any modifications to the tailshaft need to be made?

[n plus one]

With the change of centres, will any modifications to the tailshaft need to be made?

Yep, longer dif nose = shorter tail shaft.

[clubagreenie]

Check this comparison. On the left is a Toyota 8" hypoid CW/P and on the right is a Rover 8.5" spiral bevel CW/P.

My apologies, I'm not sure how to do the picture thing with an iPad, but below is a link to the picture

www.slunnie.com: Click image to close this window (http://www.slunnie.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pid=99&fullsize=1)

Out of interest, the Salisbury is also hypoid but obviously has a larger CW/P but I'd expect with the new Ashcroft diff that you will snap both HD axles before the diff fails.


As a real world comparison, the G series toyota diffs (8") are quite bomb proof, have 2 and 4 pinion versions and a ration list that would keep up with ford 9" lists.

I've seen them get run at track and drags, welded, spooled and lsd'd with up to and over 1000hp and hardly ever seen a failure, and when they do there's so many vehicles they were fitted to they're a dime a dozen.

The larger 8.5 & 9" versions (mostly IRS applications when not small trucks) have been more failure prone and we even modified the IRS crossmember to take the earlier (rare) 8" IRS housing as the cdentre can be fitted with the later stubs to bolt up the swing axles.

[Slunnie]

I think their strength is in the forward direction due to the angle of the drive face on the gear cut. In 4WDing their Achilles heel is in reverse when they get loaded up. Interestingly, I've seen the Toyota 9" run upside down, ie in reverse when driven forward, in v8 rock crawling buggies with 40"+ tyres and they have been strong. I'm guessing at least that what we are seeing is related to the gear design. I think even the Dodge Viper might only have an 8" hypoid diff too.

[Slunnie]

Dave, is the new P38 diff that you're making able to be compatible with other CW/P gears in a similar way that Dana60 gears can be made to work with the Salisbury? Eg could a Dana44 gear set for example be modified to fit?

[Jode]

I'm coming in pretty much at the end of this thread but I think it's great that Ashcroft has used the Rover centre as it is so much easier to set up than the Sals!

[rick130]

I think even the Dodge Viper might only have an 8" hypoid diff too.

I think it's a D44.

What kills our CWP's is the torque multiplication by having low range.

[uninformed]

I'm coming in pretty much at the end of this thread but I think it's great that Ashcroft has used the Rover centre as it is so much easier to set up than the Sals!

they have not used the Rover centre or the Rover housing!

[Slunnie]

they have not used the Rover centre or the Rover housing!

It does use a Rover centre.



Yes, new housing, new ring and pinion, takes stock rover diff bearings, stock seal and flange, uses rover (non P38) diff centre, locker , ATB, whatever, but with larger crown wheel bolts so the 10 holes will need drilling out to suit,

HD shafts are optional,

Dave

[Bush65]

Technically you could use a stock rover 2 pinion centre, arguably the weakest part of a rover drive train.

I prefer to think people would use a compatible aftermarket centre, with much improved strength and better support of the crown wheel. Perhaps that is what Serg was driving at!

[uninformed]

my reference was to Jode's comment of Rover Vs Sals set up and basing the new Ashcroft P38 HD upgrade on the Rover centre. Again I read that as 3rd member, not diff centre/carrier. So no, its not based on a Rover 3rd. Its a brand new casting that bolts to the P38 housing.

Again, It is a whole new casting for the 3rd member that bolts to the P38 housing. Yes it uses an ASHCROFT diff centre/carrier based on the rover type but much improved.

[Jode]

my reference was to Jode's comment of Rover Vs Sals set up and basing the new Ashcroft P38 HD upgrade on the Rover centre. Again I read that as 3rd member, not diff centre/carrier. So no, its not based on a Rover 3rd. Its a brand new casting that bolts to the P38 housing.

Again, It is a whole new casting for the 3rd member that bolts to the P38 housing. Yes it uses an ASHCROFT diff centre/carrier based on the rover type but much improved.
Thanks for the clarification. The point that I was trying to get across is that Ashcrofts' photos show that they use adjustable nuts to set the carrier bearing pre-load. This is rather easier to manage than the selectable shims that the Salisbury axle uses.

[uninformed]

good point Jode, I was thinking along the lines of removable 3rd vs sals. Much easier to set up a removable 3rd on the bench than the sals.

[mools]

So these units are the business on paper, are currently being tested and there are 20 castings ready to be fitted out. Ok so there maybe some more tweaks from the testing, although I very much doubt there will, but I'd say it looks like a cert to go to market. Hey, it's being marketed now isn't it?

So what kind of figures do people think these units are going to go out of the door for? More specifically how much does Dave intend to sell these for?

One of these units, upgraded half shafts and flanges, custom shortened props shaft.....

Starting to wonder how much it's going to end up costing to sort out a P38 type rear end if you go down this route?

Ian.

[Drover]

Buying direct from Ashcroft (complete hybrid replacement centre with air locker) ready to drop in £1350 GBP.

Then add in freight and taxes.

I think it is reasonable, compared to a good second hand ABS Sal's will cost $1500 to $2000, if you can find one.

[ashtrans]

As mentioned above, a complete new diff with one of our air lockers will be £1350, you will also need to budget to shorten the rear propshaft, other than that, it's a bolt in job,

We hope to be building some next week !

[chook73]

As mentioned above, a complete new diff with one of our air lockers will be £1350, you will also need to budget to shorten the rear propshaft, other than that, it's a bolt in job,

We hope to be building some next week !

Looks awesome Dave, will you be doing an option for those of us who have already invested in your lockers?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ashtrans]

Hi,

As our new diff uses the 'rover' type locker as opposed to the P38 type you have now you will need to change it to the rover type, you will need the main casing and 4 springs :

Ashcroft Transmissions - ASH-AL-22 (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=283)

the 10 crown wheel holes will need drilling out but we can do this for you,

Ashcroft Transmissions - ASH-AL-25 (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=286)

so we would just supply you a diff casing, ring and pinion, bearings, flange and seal,

Dave

[Westie]

They aren't set up correctly from new and thats what stuff's them,Ashcrofts had a photo showing the pinion barely meshing with the crownwheel on a brand new replacement center. Pat

I remember when my dad bought a brand new series IIA in 1969. About 12,000km in, horrible noises from the rear diff, so off with the prop shaft, out with the drive shafts and front wheel drive only to the dealer. 'Another one of those!' he cries. Turns out a batch were incorrectly assembled.

You think they would have learned something in 45 years (OK, they learned, then forgot)

[XSiV]

Well, the speculation can stop as I now have one of these babies sitting in my rear axle and I can say with much confidence that this baby is a whole world of difference from the old pile of crap it replaced.

The drive is silent and smooth, I feel like my defender has been somewhat gentrified. I also had a front locker installed while I was at it so now I have to find a gnarly track and really test it out. Any takers for a trip to Toolangi?

[n plus one]

Well, the speculation can stop as I now have one of these babies sitting in my rear axle and I can say with much confidence that this baby is a whole world of difference from the old pile of crap it replaced.

The drive is silent and smooth, I feel like my defender has been somewhat gentrified. I also had a front locker installed while I was at it so now I have to find a gnarly track and really test it out. Any takers for a trip to Toolangi?

Bought time mate, been waiting in your report...

[XSiV]

Bought time mate, been waiting in your report...

Is that you Luke? We'll have to find a nasty muddy hill somewhere between here and there to drive it up.

[n plus one]

Is that you Luke? We'll have to find a nasty muddy hill somewhere between here and there to drive it up.

Yep, sure is.

Sounds like a good plan to me!

[LoveB]

I should start saving pennies for this for when the car is out of warranty...

[mools]

Well, the speculation can stop as I now have one of these babies sitting in my rear...

XSiV,

Silent?! I'll take your word for that.

But did you have any issues fitting it and setting it up? How did you go shortening the drive shaft? Did you measure it up once you'd fitted the unit or go of the -30 mm quoted by Ashcroft and have it prepared before you fitted the diff unit? Did you have the original shortened, new custom shaft or is there a shaft out there that can be adapted?

I'd appreciate your thoughts / experience.

BTW what year vehicle did you put it into?

cheers,

Ian.

[chook73]

XSiV,

Silent?! I'll take your word for that.

But did you have any issues fitting it and setting it up? How did you go shortening the drive shaft? Did you measure it up once you'd fitted the unit or go of the -30 mm quoted by Ashcroft and have it prepared before you fitted the diff unit? Did you have the original shortened, new custom shaft or is there a shaft out there that can be adapted?

I'd appreciate your thoughts / experience.

BTW what year vehicle did you put it into?

cheers,

Ian.

:whistling:

[Drover]

Well its been ordered, paid for and it's on it's way - my new "Heavy Duty P38 Diff" direct from Ashcroft Tranmissions.:banana::banana:

Big thanks to Iain (Chook73) for doing all the leg work in getting them organised and on their way. :BigThumb:

[Naks]

Well its been ordered, paid for and it's on it's way - my new "Heavy Duty P38 Diff" direct from Ashcroft Tranmissions.:banana::banana:
Big thanks to Iain (Chook73) for doing all the leg work in getting them organised and on their way. :BigThumb:


We expect pics of the installation, if not a YouTube clip ;)

[chook73]

Well its been ordered, paid for and it's on it's way - my new "Heavy Duty P38 Diff" direct from Ashcroft Tranmissions.:banana::banana:

Big thanks to Iain (Chook73) for doing all the leg work in getting them organised and on their way. :BigThumb:

Thanks mate, tracking has it landing next Tuesday! :ehigh5:

[XSiV]

XSiV,

Silent?! I'll take your word for that.

But did you have any issues fitting it and setting it up? How did you go shortening the drive shaft? Did you measure it up once you'd fitted the unit or go of the -30 mm quoted by Ashcroft and have it prepared before you fitted the diff unit? Did you have the original shortened, new custom shaft or is there a shaft out there that can be adapted?

I'd appreciate your thoughts / experience.

BTW what year vehicle did you put it into?

cheers,

Ian.

Hi Ian,

Sorry for the delay in responding, when I say silent, I mean compared to the constant whine I had before. There is very little driveline noise though I still have typical engine noise and turbo whistle etc.

I actually had it fitted at Les Richmond up the road in Melbourne. From all reports it went straight in no problems. Was planning to have my drive shaft shortened but when the drive shaft guys threw it on their balancing machine they detected a slight bend. So they rebuilt one from scratch which is a much better shaft than the original one. I'll give Andrew from Les Richmond a call and ask him what was requested when they sent the shaft to be shortened to see if it was simply 30mm as you suggested.

Vehicle is a 2003 130 Defender td5

Cheers

Josh

[mools]

Thanks Josh,

my comment RE silent was perhaps a little facetious, but glad to hear that it has solved your driveline issues.

I would appreciate any further info on the length of the drive shaft as, although I intend to go down the same route - i.e replace with the Ashcroft unit, I'm not in a massive rush at the moment. If I can get a good idea of things like variations in the shaft length required for the conversion then I can hopefully obtain all the components prior to fitting and reduce the down time on the vehicle.

Cheers,

ian.

[chook73]

Thanks Josh,

my comment RE silent was perhaps a little facetious, but glad to hear that it has solved your driveline issues.

I would appreciate any further info on the length of the drive shaft as, although I intend to go down the same route - i.e replace with the Ashcroft unit, I'm not in a massive rush at the moment. If I can get a good idea of things like variations in the shaft length required for the conversion then I can hopefully obtain all the components prior to fitting and reduce the down time on the vehicle.

Cheers,

ian.

I am waiting until I get it over here and in before I get the shaft remade, it only takes a day to rebuild the shaft so I am ok with that. Dave from Ashcroft was very adamant about the 30mm but once Drover and I have ours fitted up we will be able to give you a better idea. When you get the shaft shortened its worth getting it rebuilt as they are very thin walled from the factory.

[XSiV]

Thanks Josh,

my comment RE silent was perhaps a little facetious, but glad to hear that it has solved your driveline issues.

I would appreciate any further info on the length of the drive shaft as, although I intend to go down the same route - i.e replace with the Ashcroft unit, I'm not in a massive rush at the moment. If I can get a good idea of things like variations in the shaft length required for the conversion then I can hopefully obtain all the components prior to fitting and reduce the down time on the vehicle.

Cheers,

ian.


I am waiting until I get it over here and in before I get the shaft remade, it only takes a day to rebuild the shaft so I am ok with that. Dave from Ashcroft was very adamant about the 30mm but once Drover and I have ours fitted up we will be able to give you a better idea. When you get the shaft shortened its worth getting it rebuilt as they are very thin walled from the factory.

I haven't had a chance to call Andrew at Les Richmond but there are pics of the Ashcroft Dif centre next to my old one comparing the two. Also the page mentions the shaft was shortened 31mm. Have a look at this link (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d709.html)

If you have any questions about it the best thing would be to call Andrew at Les Richmond I'm sure he would be more than happy to share any info. They are great guys up there and very knowledgable about all things modified LR.

[Drover]

Thanks Josh for the link.

They certainly look the goods, can't wait to pick mine up next week.

Iain txt me today to say they have landed in Sydney, so won't be long now.

From the comparison pictures Ashcroft's have put some thought into it and the machining/engineering appears to be of the typical high standard we have come to expect from Ashcroft Transmission. :D

[chook73]

Postman Pat dropped past today.....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/151.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/154.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/155.jpg

[Drover]

Looks good mate, bet your busting to get it all put together and installed :BigThumb:

[chook73]

Looks good mate, bet your busting to get it all put together and installed :BigThumb:

Dropped it off at KLR this afternoon and Brad seemed really impressed with it. Will be going together in the next few days and hopefully the new trailing arms will be ready early next week so the brackets can then be made meaning I should have the truck back in a couple of weeks. :banana:

[Drover]

Well it's here and safe n sound in the garage.

Rear prop shaft to come this weekend and then sent away for shortening / re-tubing with a heavier wall thickness tube.

Then it's time for the fit up.

Couple of pics for those who haven't seen one yet.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/1533.jpg (http://s756.photobucket.com/user/sup_allie/media/image_zpsbaf15596.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/1534.jpg (http://s756.photobucket.com/user/sup_allie/media/image_zps744012d2.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/06/1535.jpg (http://s756.photobucket.com/user/sup_allie/media/image_zps0e2f5af8.jpg.html)

[clubagreenie]

If you had say an Ashcroft ATB in the rear at the moment and considering the special at L8, would you buy:



Another ATB for the front to match the rear and let the TC deal with manipulations to make work.
An Ashcroft Air locker, and fit to the front making it selectable and ressen any potential for steering effects.
As above but fit the selectable to the rear and swap the rear to the front.
Leave with just the rear ATB.
Other, (add options, axplanation)

[XSiV]

Ok, I have finally had a chance to test the lockers.

We hit Toolangi SF on the weekend and when I had to use the lockers they worked perfectly, no noise, tonnes more traction as expected and the front one didn't seem to make too much difference to the steering. None that I noticed anyway. Mind you I wasn't exactly trying to do a slalom course with them engaged and it was very slippery mud I was in.

pics here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=1923758#post1923758)

The only thing that stopped me getting out of the bog I was in initially was the fact my tyres caked with the slippery sticky clay. Once I got over the initial hump I reversed back up with ease. I know I wouldn't have been able to do that without the lockers engaged.

All I can say is top job Dave. You have completed my defender! Thanks a bunch.

[ashtrans]

Hi Josh,

glad you are pleased with it,

they have turned out quite well, easy enough to build and straight forward to fit,

I think I will get another batch of parts ordered up, this first batch is only 20 and nearly half have sold mainly from this thread, I haven't had a chance to put them on our website yet !

Dave

[Drover]

Finally got the old P38 centre out today and fitted the new HDP38 centre, simple job.

Just waiting on the new prop-shaft.

Here's a comparison pic of the 2 centres nose to nose.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/09/358.jpg (http://s756.photobucket.com/user/sup_allie/media/image_zps84d19622.jpg.html)

[chook73]

Finally got the old P38 centre out today and fitted the new HDP38 centre, simple job.

Just waiting on the new prop-shaft.


Was thinking about that today, apparently my diff was not a simple job to assemble from scratch (maybe Dave could do some instructions for future sales) but its all together now however I didnt ask Brad if he had go the prop shafts done.

Will give him a call on Monday and follow it up for you.

[Sheppie]

22500kms on the clock and got the mechanic to drop front and rear diff oil - both came out very dirty - like they was full of carbon/black s##t ....
no shiny bits in it though.
going to drop the gearbox oil as well - anyone know what its supposed to be replaced with?
One thing that does bother me a little is that there is a heap of backlash when releasing the clutch - dont remember my 300tdi doing that???

[zkdaz]

So the Ashcroft replacement casting and CW&P allows you to build up a rear much stronger than the stock P38 style centre, but how does it compare to the standard (long nose) rover design?

Does the low pinion hypoid design make it stronger forwards at the expense of being weaker in reverse like Toyota fronts, or is that just the cut of the gear teeth?

Do people think the 110/130 axle housing is strong enough (resistance to bending) for long term, fully loaded touring/overland use? Or does it really need reinforcing like the UK MOD HD axles (Wolf/Snatch) to run constant heavy loads?

If both housings would need reinforcing, is there any advantage of a 110/130 axle with the Ashcroft centre over reinforcing and building up a standard 90/Disco rear with all aftermarket internals?

Just thinking through the ideal rear to replace a Salsbury without going to custom made stuff.

Dan

[PAT303]

Building up a rover is still my prefered choice,easy to find and very cheap. Pat

[chook73]

Hey Drover have you taken yours for a run yet? How was it, did you have any dramas?

Seems mine has a problem and the whole lot has to come back apart and be re-machined......:twisted:

[Drover]

Really, that sux !

Still haven't got my prop shaft back yet. Hopefully this week.

Just started to wire/mount the compressor.

[chook73]

Really, that sux !

Still haven't got my prop shaft back yet. Hopefully this week.

Just started to wire/mount the compressor.

Yep given that it takes 8 hours or so just to pull the diff out and reassemble!

[Drover]

Is your shaft finished ?

[chook73]

I believe so, give him a call on Monday........

[chook73]

Just started to wire/mount the compressor.

Where did you decide to mount it?

[Drover]

Drivers seat box, front.

Switches will be same place as yours.

[modman]

"If both housings would need reinforcing, is there any advantage of a 110/130 axle with the Ashcroft centre over reinforcing and building up a standard 90/Disco rear with all aftermarket internals?

Just thinking through the ideal rear to replace a Salsbury without going to custom made stuff."

Why do you want to get rid if the sals??
Dc

[uninformed]

"If both housings would need reinforcing, is there any advantage of a 110/130 axle with the Ashcroft centre over reinforcing and building up a standard 90/Disco rear with all aftermarket internals?

Just thinking through the ideal rear to replace a Salsbury without going to custom made stuff."

Why do you want to get rid if the sals??
Dc

havent you heard modman, all the sals are going to fail at any moment, the tubes pulling from the cast center.... :D

[XSiV]

Hi Josh,

glad you are pleased with it,

they have turned out quite well, easy enough to build and straight forward to fit,

I think I will get another batch of parts ordered up, this first batch is only 20 and nearly half have sold mainly from this thread, I haven't had a chance to put them on our website yet !

Dave

I knew they'd be a great seller. I think you'll sell many more into the future too considering all the new defenders have the p38 diffs. Thanks again.

[PAT303]

havent you heard modman, all the sals are going to fail at any moment, the tubes pulling from the cast center.... :D

Just like all the P38's are going to break as soon as you go offroad :p. Pat

[uninformed]

Just like all the P38's are going to break as soon as you go offroad :p. Pat

I think there are only 3 P38's that go off road........oh, you are referring to the diff not the RR ;)

[Bush65]

So the Ashcroft replacement casting and CW&P allows you to build up a rear much stronger than the stock P38 style centre, but how does it compare to the standard (long nose) rover design?

Does the low pinion hypoid design make it stronger forwards at the expense of being weaker in reverse like Toyota fronts, or is that just the cut of the gear teeth?

Do people think the 110/130 axle housing is strong enough (resistance to bending) for long term, fully loaded touring/overland use? Or does it really need reinforcing like the UK MOD HD axles (Wolf/Snatch) to run constant heavy loads?

If both housings would need reinforcing, is there any advantage of a 110/130 axle with the Ashcroft centre over reinforcing and building up a standard 90/Disco rear with all aftermarket internals?

Just thinking through the ideal rear to replace a Salsbury without going to custom made stuff.

Dan
The all else being equal, material tooth thickness, etc, the hypoid tooth will be stronger than the spiral bevel (rover R&P) tooth, because of the greater tooth width.

Both hypoid and spiral bevel gears are stronger in one direction than the other, so the strong direction is used for the more heavily loaded rear diff and the reverse direction is used for the front diff, except when reverse cut gears are used for the front.

The problem with the landcruiser front diff, is that it is undersize for the duty, it has nothing to do with being hypoid.

Going from what I have seen here, I would expect the Ashcroft hypoid R&P, for a p38 diff, to be stronger than a rover 8.5" R&P. I don't know if the diameter of a p38 ring gear is larger or same as a rover ring gear, but either way it should be stronger.

[modman]

"haven't you heard modman, all the sals are going to fail at any moment, the tubes pulling from the cast center.... "

My gps avoids bus loads of nuns so my sals should last:D
I'm reading way to much pirate these days
Dc

[zkdaz]

Why do you want to get rid if the sals??
Dc

Not sure if I do want to replace the Sals, but I want to be sure there isn't a better option before committing to a disc conversion, locker, half-shafts, etc.

[Bush65]

Lots of better options, but it depends upon your definition of better.

[zkdaz]

it depends upon your definition of better.

For me better would be axle housings strong enough never to worry about bending them when bouncing fully loaded vehicle up a steep and badly rutted track.

After that priorities come down to track width, CW&P ratios for 9R16 tyres, lockers, half shaft strength, disc brakes and stud patterns. Ideally I would prefer front and rear axles to share as many components as possible. Lastly I would prefer axles from a common vehicle rather than exotic or custom, both for cost and parts availability.

As I see it, the problem is vehicles designed for greater GVM have significantly wider track than a 110. This leaves us with 3 land rover flavors (rover, p38, sals), Nissan and Toyota, none of which are ideal.

John, have you managed to get your hybrid/LC105 axles registered?

Cheers
Dan

[isuzurover]

...bouncing fully loaded vehicle up a steep and badly rutted track....

...

Define bouncing??? Nissota driver 500m runup then launch type bouncing???

The small number of failed sals axles on here all seem to have been 110 variants that did lots of driving on corrugated roads while heavily loaded. So high frequency vibration leading to fatigue failure seems to be the issue, rather than bending the axles due to "bouncing" while going up hills.

[Bush65]

For me better would be axle housings strong enough never to worry about bending them when bouncing fully loaded vehicle up a steep and badly rutted track.

After that priorities come down to track width, CW&P ratios for 9R16 tyres, lockers, half shaft strength, disc brakes and stud patterns. Ideally I would prefer front and rear axles to share as many components as possible. Lastly I would prefer axles from a common vehicle rather than exotic or custom, both for cost and parts availability.

As I see it, the problem is vehicles designed for greater GVM have significantly wider track than a 110. This leaves us with 3 land rover flavors (rover, p38, sals), Nissan and Toyota, none of which are ideal.

John, have you managed to get your hybrid/LC105 axles registered?

Cheers
Dan
Haven't got to Qld rego stage yet. I should be able to reduce track width to legal (+50mm over stock in Qld) if I find suitable offset wheels.

[zkdaz]

Define bouncing??? Nissota driver 500m runup then launch type bouncing???

The small number of failed sals axles on here all seem to have been 110 variants that did lots of driving on corrugated roads while heavily loaded. So high frequency vibration leading to fatigue failure seems to be the issue, rather than bending the axles due to "bouncing" while going up hills.

That's useful to know. As my goal is an overland touring vehicle corrugations would be far more common than the odd time when you need momentum to carry you through. I had made the wrong assumption as to what would cause the failures.

[Slunnie]

That's useful to know. As my goal is an overland touring vehicle corrugations would be far more common than the odd time when you need momentum to carry you through. I had made the wrong assumption as to what would cause the failures.

While at the Cape with the shadow casting and endless corrugations that are there, we also passed a Pajero with a snapped axle housing. I would expect that into that combination of what causes a Salisbury failure that you would also add high tyre pressures to that operating environment. We ran big bias tyres (Simex) at reduced pressures while up there and they absorbed the vast majority of the corrugations.

[isuzurover]

That's useful to know. As my goal is an overland touring vehicle corrugations would be far more common than the odd time when you need momentum to carry you through. I had made the wrong assumption as to what would cause the failures.

That is my main usage also. I am happy to use a 110 housing, and inspect it regularly, however if I get the chance I will tube the housing internally or swap to a (thicker) 130 housing.

[justinc]

I have a 130 housing, I pay attention to tyre pressures on corrugations etc, and try not to overload it. This also means keeping the draw bar weight down below 200kg if at all possible.

Longrange fuel tanks and twin spare carriers all add it up....


JC

[uninformed]

I just went to woolies and bought a trolley load of home brand cotton balls, then proceeded to wrap the whole housing in those......

[Westie]

While at the Cape with the shadow casting and endless corrugations that are there, we also passed a Pajero with a snapped axle housing...

I think this is a known (if not widely admitted) problem with older Pajero rear axles. I know of one vehicle that had 2 axles fail over a 12 month period. The second failure caused a roll over that wrote the vehicle off - at the 'wrong' end of the Plenty Highway in the NT.

[rick130]

I just went to woolies and bought a trolley load of home brand cotton balls, then proceeded to wrap the whole housing in those......


This reminds me of the women that went into the Chemist shop, walked up to the counter and asked the chemist;

"Excuse me, do you have cotton balls ?"

"Madam, do I look like a teddy bear ?"













:angel:

[rick130]

FWIW my 130 spent the first three years of its life grossly overloaded with a water tank and pump pounding the roads and scrub between Tennant and Alice as an NT BFC tanker/response/whatever they call them up there plus a life with me where the car tares 3000kg sans driver and for the first six years drove dirt roads every day at mostly close to rally car pace and the axle tubes are still in place in the Sals.

Telstra drivers do go harder though :D

[Cammo]

Chook and Drover (and anyone else with one fitted)
How are they going? Tested them out yet? Did anyone notice if fitting one reduced driveline backlash at all?

[Drover]

Hey Cammo,

Still waiting on the prop shaft. As the snout is 31mm longer than the stock diff the prop shaft as to be shortened accordingly. Both Chook73 and I, both had them re tube with heavier duty tube.

The centre is in, compressor is mounted and wired, just air line to run and that prop shaft to go.

I will post my results and opinion once it's back on the tracks.

[n plus one]

Don't suppose anyone has heard whether Ashcrofts is thinking about an ATB version?

I've just done a few runs with my new front ATB and am starting to think about a rear instead of a locker. Can't believe how good the ATB is!

[Drover]

The new Ashcroft HDP38 is available with any Ashcroft centre that is available for the front Rover diff.

Basically it a HD casting that fits into the P38 housing, it takes "Rover diff" internals, other than the crown wheel and pinion......or at least that is my understanding.

So sound like your are in luck for ATB.

[chook73]

Hey Cammo,

Still waiting on the prop shaft. As the snout is 31mm longer than the stock diff the prop shaft as to be shortened accordingly. Both Chook73 and I, both had them re tube with heavier duty tube.

The centre is in, compressor is mounted and wired, just air line to run and that prop shaft to go.

I will post my results and opinion once it's back on the tracks.

Hmmmm so you haven't heard from Brad either????

[Drover]

No mate, I have been ringing but just goes to voice mail.
Left a couple of messages, no reply.
Just busy I guess.

[chook73]

No mate, I have been ringing but just goes to voice mail.
Left a couple of messages, no reply.
Just busy I guess.

Just talked to Matt, he was away last week and one of the kids is sick today so hopefully he will be in tomorrow. I am sure it must just be sitting there waiting.

I am kind of keen to get mine back, its been in there 10 weeks now and I leave for a trip end of next week..... hopefully :angel:

[chook73]

Chook and Drover (and anyone else with one fitted)
How are they going? Tested them out yet? Did anyone notice if fitting one reduced driveline backlash at all?

Mine wont be a really good indicator as I had nearly all of the backlash taken out previously, it will certainly go a long way towards helping/reducing but you will probably need to do other things like upgrade the axles and drive flanges and possibly have the TC bearings preload adjusted properly to take it all out.

[Drover]

Good news my prop shaft is ready....woohoo.

Probably pick it up on Thursday morning.

Can't wait.

[mools]

Just wondering about the drive shaft modifications both Chook and Drover are doing.

When you say re tubing to a heavier duty tube, you are referring to the tube thickness of the prop shaft right? So what is the original thickness and what thickness are you using as a replacement?

I personally have never heard of a shaft failing due to the tube failing, uj joints plenty, gearbox lay shafts also but drive shaft tubes not really. I was wondering how much of a problem this type of failure really is / how likely it is to occur. If it is a real concern should it be as much of an issue on the front shaft too, or does the differance in the length of the shafts / tubes have a significant affect on its torsional strength?

On a more general note, if up rating all components from drive members, half shafts, diff through to prop shaft then does the weak link move in to to the transfere case / gearbox? If so should something let go when out and about then would it be more likely to be a real show stopper rarther than just reducing drive by a wheel or two?

Cheers,

Ian.

[clubagreenie]

There's always a fuse somewhere in the system. As you upgrade parts the fuse just becomes more and more expensive.

[Drover]

There's always a fuse somewhere in the system. As you upgrade parts the fuse just becomes more and more expensive.

Yeah, I don't disagree with your analagy if fact its quite good.

But, with each up grade the amperage of fuse also increases.

I've probably gone tiny little 5A fuse up to a reasonable 30A.

[isuzurover]

There's always a fuse somewhere in the system. ...

This is commonly espoused. However the mechanical engineers on here who design these sort of components for a living don't seem to subscribe to this theory (myth). At least when we are talking about vehicle drivelines.

[rovercare]

There's always a fuse somewhere in the system. As you upgrade parts the fuse just becomes more and more expensive.

Rubbish, some components are not unto the task

[Bush65]

Just wondering about the drive shaft modifications both Chook and Drover are doing.

When you say re tubing to a heavier duty tube, you are referring to the tube thickness of the prop shaft right? So what is the original thickness and what thickness are you using as a replacement?

I personally have never heard of a shaft failing due to the tube failing, uj joints plenty, gearbox lay shafts also but drive shaft tubes not really. I was wondering how much of a problem this type of failure really is / how likely it is to occur. If it is a real concern should it be as much of an issue on the front shaft too, or does the differance in the length of the shafts / tubes have a significant affect on its torsional strength?

On a more general note, if up rating all components from drive members, half shafts, diff through to prop shaft then does the weak link move in to to the transfere case / gearbox? If so should something let go when out and about then would it be more likely to be a real show stopper rarther than just reducing drive by a wheel or two?

Cheers,

Ian.
The tube used for most Land Rover (I don't know about Puma's) drive shafts, is strong enough so long as you don't dent it on a rock.

A dent in the tube leads to the tube being twisted up like licorice.

Heavier wall thickness will be less likely to dent, but is not ideal for rotational inertia.

If we are talking about tube diameter, which we weren't, then the diameter that Land Rover use for 120 and 130's rear drive shafts is too small and makes it susceptible to a phenomenon called 'whirling' vibration - a good number of 130 owners put up with vibration, meanwhile Land Rover saves a couple of dollars. The tube diameter is verging on too small for a 110 rear drive shaft.

[rick130]

If we are talking about tube diameter, which we weren't, then the diameter that Land Rover use for 120 and 130's rear drive shafts is too small and makes it susceptible to a phenomenon called 'whirling' vibration - a good number of 130 owners put up with vibration, meanwhile Land Rover saves a couple of dollars. The tube diameter is verging on too small for a 110 rear drive shaft.

I'll see if I can get a photo of my old F100 drive shaft (it's in a neighbours paddock) and compare it to the 130 shaft, I think people will be shocked.

[goingbush]

as far as I'm concerned the 'fuse' should not be any mechanical component, but should be loss of traction, how good would that be. if yr so worried about breaking something hone out yr drive flange drill a hole thru and drop in a shear pin :)

[modman]

Ill file the driveline fuse away with the authentic cup holders and approved seat covers!!:wheelchair:



Only joking
Let your feet and skill be the fuse, it's a learning curve.
Drive to the conditions or be prepared to break chit.
Simple things like driveline shock can fatigue, crack and snap stock or old stuff.
Dc

[Slunnie]

as far as I'm concerned the 'fuse' should not be any mechanical component, but should be loss of traction, how good would that be. if yr so worried about breaking something hone out yr drive flange drill a hole thru and drop in a shear pin :)

I think in many cases this is how it is. I'm sure I did calculations on the rover driveline and you are able to snap an axle with engine torque through the gearboxes, but the tyres would normally slip first. But you can easily generate scenarios where traction from the tyres are increased so drivelines still do break.

[chook73]

It all good to say that there is a fuse in the line but what happens when you upgrade the circuits on either side of the fuse and don't upgrade the fuse? Surely its destined to fail from the start.....

It was recommended by my mechanic to upgrade the wall thickness on the tail shaft for exactly the reasons John outlined below, he showed me two tail shafts he had recently replaced both had twisted from a small ding......

I figure running a Chip, upgraded intercooler and a few other engine mods with locker, hypoid diff, upgraded shafts, portals and 35's a weak tail shaft wasn't destined for a happy life......

[Drover]

Finally it moves....

Got the prop shaft back from the machine shop and its all fitted up. It was shortened by 31mm, heavier wall thickness tube. Very nice job and very pleased with quality of the work and the cost.

After a small mis match between the ARB (5mm)air line size to the Ashcroft(6mm) The air line is now in place.

Just got back from short 15km drive, only got up to 85km/h and just on the tar but it is quite, smooth and any back lash has been eliminated. (vehicle also has Ashcroft half shafts and drive flanges front and rear and CV's)

Didn't get the opportunity to engage the locker but I am sure it will be fine.

So far so good, very happy.

[dullbird]

I thought you had already bought one of those you bute props that chook got

[chook73]

I thought you had already bought one of those you bute props that chook got

The new ashcroft diff requires the shortening of the rear shaft, the dodgy ones Drover and I bought from that less than reputable person were double cardon shafts for the front.

Mine is sitting destroyed on my garage floor after just 3000km with the manufacturer refusing to do anything about it. :twisted:

On another note unfortunately there have been some problems with my diff and it seems another one in Melbourne. These problems seem to revolve around a machining error during manufacturing.

I have just received a great email from Dave Ashcroft explaining the problem and what he plans to do to fix it. He also acknowledged that I plan to leave on a trip next week and assured me that it will not affect the reliability of the diff, it just makes a bit of noise on overrun. Dave has also offered to pay all of the additional costs incurred by this which for me with portals is a bit as to get the diff in and out the portals have to come apart.

I am very impressed with the way Dave has responded to the problem, we all know that these things can happen but the difference is how the manufacturer responds.

I thought I would post this as i am sure everyone is going to ask for reviews.

[Drover]

I thought you had already bought one of those you bute props that chook got

Hey Lou,

This is one occasion that breaching AULRO's rules on naming dodgy rip off merchant posing as reputable businesses would be a service to our members.

Tempting but I'll behave......grrrrrrrrrrrr

[chook73]

Hey Lou,

This is one occasion that breaching AULRO's rules on naming dodgy rip off merchant posing as reputable businesses would be a service to our members.

Tempting but I'll behave......grrrrrrrrrrrr

Yep I have had to try very hard to restrain myself from naming and shaming..... :twisted:

[Slunnie]

Lemmings anybody. :D

[chook73]

I have done about 100km on the new diff so I thought I would post a first impression post. As previously mentioned the diff has a little fault which Dave Ashcroft is on top of and I have to say whilst a noise on overrun is clearly there it is no where near as bad as I thought it was going to be.

I thought that we had previously got rid of most of the backlash but this new diff makes the most amazing difference to the way it drives, pulling away from lights and changing gears feels positive and I don't have to be conscious of the driveline the whole time any more.

I am very impressed despite the small machining fault. I will update again once I have a few more KM on the clock.

[rick130]

Just a FWIW on prop shaft diameters.

Measured the 130, rear prop OD is 70mm.

Nissan Patrol coil cab ute, rear prop is 91mm OD. (and quite a bit shorter, we won't mention UJ size either....) The Effie shaft is in the neighbours shed, but IIRC it's 4" or larger.

Yes, a Patrol drives through the rear diff on road, but still...and as John mentioned, a number of 130's experience vibration problems from the rear shaft 'whirling', which is the phenomenon you get when the shaft reaches its critical speed.

The smaller the diameter and longer the shaft the lower the critical speed and in theory form the charts I've seen a 70mm mild steel shaft 58" long would have a critical speed somewhere around 4-4500RPM, well above what a 130 would see normally, yet they wobble or whirl.

[Bush65]

Just a FWIW on prop shaft diameters.

Measured the 130, rear prop OD is 70mm.

Nissan Patrol coil cab ute, rear prop is 91mm OD. (and quite a bit shorter, we won't mention UJ size either....) The Effie shaft is in the neighbours shed, but IIRC it's 4" or larger.

Yes, a Patrol drives through the rear diff on road, but still...and as John mentioned, a number of 130's experience vibration problems from the rear shaft 'whirling', which is the phenomenon you get when the shaft reaches its critical speed.

The smaller the diameter and longer the shaft the lower the critical speed and in theory form the charts I've seen a 70mm mild steel shaft 58" long would have a critical speed somewhere around 4-4500RPM, well above what a 130 would see normally, yet they wobble or whirl.
70mm :o I didn't think they were that large.

The tail shaft from my 120 is only 50mm, same as for a rangie with 100" WB.

79 series cruisers are about 80mm.

[rick130]

70mm :o I didn't think they were that large.

The tail shaft from my 120 is only 50mm, same as for a rangie with 100" WB.

79 series cruisers are about 80mm.


50mm ??!! :eek:

OMG.....

Here's a Tdi era 130 shaft.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=62924&stc=1&d=1373764363

At least the earlier versions used 1310 sized uni's, Tdi's use the 1300 external size with the 1310 size cross .
I wonder how many 110/130's are running around with replacement 1300 size uni's and wondering why the UJ's aren't lasting any length of time ?

[isuzurover]

...The tail shaft from my 120 is only 50mm, same as for a rangie with 100" WB. ...

Since the 120s were made in AU, they probably were fitted with lengthened 110 shafts without any thought to increase the diameter.

[lightwing]

I recently had installed one of Dave Ashcrofts new diffs.
Same problem that others are finding, noise on overrun. A lot of it actually.
Anyway I am now waiting for this to be sorted out and as others have allready mentioned Dave has been most accommodating in assisting.
I am interested and a bit surprised to see how many others are having a similar experience.

[mools]

I recently had installed one of Dave Ashcrofts new diffs.
Same problem that others are finding, noise on overrun. A lot of it actually.
Anyway I am now waiting for this to be sorted out and as others have allready mentioned Dave has been most accommodating in assisting.
I am interested and a bit surprised to see how many others are having a similar experience.

Interesting indeed. I've been interested in this unit since it was just an idea but have been holding back to see what some others found these to be like before jumping in and shelling out for one. Considering there are a few about not too much seems to have been mentioned about this, perhaps most have not yet been installed, or all the talk is going on elsewhere. Or, understandably, if people have some issues they want to give Ashcrofts fair chance to sort it out and not publicise it too much.

I know Dave is around here a bit and had a lot of input on this thread early on. So considering his last post....


I think I will get another batch of parts ordered up, this first batch is only 20 and nearly half have sold mainly from this thread....

Dave

Dave, Can I ask you directly what the problem is, what causes it, and what can be done to rectify it? If its excessive noise is it due to the cut of the gears? And is this just par for the course for a stronger unit?

If a unit is ordered now will it come from the first batch and have the same issues or can this be addressed before it is sent out?

Like I said I'm interested in getting one of these but am slightly reticent if there are some known issues, especially if it means having to shell out the additional expense to get the prop shaft re engineered to find that out for myself. My truck is my daily drive and i dont have a spare prop so couldn't just pop the old diff in if it needs additional attention after installation.

Cheers,

Ian.

[Bush65]

Since the 120s were made in AU, they probably were fitted with lengthened 110 shafts without any thought to increase the diameter.
That is probably the answer. I wasn't aware the 130's had larger diam tubes, and thought it was typical of Land Rover cost cutting not to do so.

I have uploaded two good documents about drive shafts from Dana Spicer. They are in the files section, under the category of Technical Manuals.

Application Guide (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=7&id=147)

Installation Guide (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=7&id=146)

[chook73]

I recently had installed one of Dave Ashcrofts new diffs.
Same problem that others are finding, noise on overrun. A lot of it actually.
Anyway I am now waiting for this to be sorted out and as others have allready mentioned Dave has been most accommodating in assisting.
I am interested and a bit surprised to see how many others are having a similar experience.

Mine now has aprox 1400km on it and I have to say the noise has significantly reduced although still present. Will be interesting to see what it's like with a few more km on it.

[Drover]

Mine now has aprox 1400km on it and I have to say the noise has significantly reduced although still present. Will be interesting to see what it's like with a few more km on it.

Hey Iain,
Good to hear the diff is on the improve.
Have you tested the locker function yet ?
I taking mine out today for its first real test, clock up some K's and find somewhere to test the locker.
Really hoping it doesn't develop any noise.
Cheers

[chook73]

Hey Iain,
Good to hear the diff is on the improve.
Have you tested the locker function yet ?
I taking mine out today for its first real test, clock up some K's and find somewhere to test the locker.
Really hoping it doesn't develop any noise.
Cheers

Hi mate I haven't tested the locker yet however it's the same locker I have had for a year without any problems so I have confidence in it.

Good luck I hope all goes well.

[Drover]

Well.....

Did 250k's, including the Yango Nation Park (Lagoona to the Putty Rd). In all a easy trail, only needing engage centre diff lock once for a creek crossing, but lots of steep up and down hill sections.

Diff went went well, no probs.

No noise at all under any acceleration or "floating" the throttle.

On deceleration, started to get a "whine" from 63km/h to about 45km/h. The whine starts very low and peaks at about 53km/h by 45 it's completely gone.

Going on a trip out to Inaminka next week so hopefully the noise will just disappear after a couple of tousand K's. If not I may be up for the same repair as you, Iain.

On a positive side, I engaged the rear locker at that creek, amazing how much difference it made, just walked up out a of stepped up rocky exit at idle in 1st gear.

Cheers.

[tieds]

Had the dry diff sound at the back after 37000km. Especially evident when going from 3rd to 2nd and also a quite loud creaking sound when engaging reverse. Trivetts at Parramatta replaced the diff centre, claiming all was fixed and 20 km later, same problems but at lower revs, just about constant in traffic situations. So what gives, how can a brand new unit be this bad?
Back to Trivetts tommorrow and when the warranty runs out in 6 months perhaps an Ashcroft unit if they iron out the niggles.
Any idea how much a new P38 centre costs?, mines being done under warranty at the moment.

[tieds]

Well.....

Did 250k's, including the Yango Nation Park (Lagoona to the Putty Rd). In all a easy trail, only needing engage centre diff lock once for a creek crossing, but lots of steep up and down hill sections.

Diff went went well, no probs.

No noise at all under any acceleration or "floating" the throttle.

On deceleration, started to get a "whine" from 63km/h to about 45km/h. The whine starts very low and peaks at about 53km/h by 45 it's completely gone.

Going on a trip out to Inaminka next week so hopefully the noise will just disappear after a couple of tousand K's. If not I may be up for the same repair as you, Iain.

On a positive side, I engaged the rear locker at that creek, amazing how much difference it made, just walked up out a of stepped up rocky exit at idle in 1st gear.

Cheers.

Thanks drover for you're replies. Hope the diff works out!
Tieds

[chook73]

Going on a trip out to Inaminka next week.



Oddly enough so am I. Which way are you going? Might see you along the way.

[Drover]

Hey Iain,

Leaving on Tuesday 30/7 heading for Broken Hill.

Then onto Tibooburra, Cameron Cnr, Inaminka.

Not sure what day we will arrive as we just going to take it easy and enjoy the sights on the way.

Would be great to catch up somewhere if it works out.

[mools]

Just thought I'd give this thread a bump to see what transpired with the Ashcroft HD P38 type replacement diff.

It would be good to hear any reports of how people are finding these as some must have clocked up a fair few km now. OK so the locker probably works and gives you heaps of traction (you'd be disappointed if it didn't) but what about the noise issues that were being reported. Do they 'bed in' and become quiet over time or has removal and machining been required? Also what is the source of the noise, is it the gear profile or something else?

Anyone got some experience to share?

Thanks,

Ian.

[n plus one]

Just thought I'd give this thread a bump to see what transpired with the Ashcroft HD P38 type replacement diff.

It would be good to hear any reports of how people are finding these as some must have clocked up a fair few km now. OK so the locker probably works and gives you heaps of traction (you'd be disappointed if it didn't) but what about the noise issues that were being reported. Do they 'bed in' and become quiet over time or has removal and machining been required? Also what is the source of the noise, is it the gear profile or something else?

Anyone got some experience to share?

Thanks,

Ian.

Recent inquiries with a (large) local dealer indicate that the issue remains unresolved...largely because the source of the issue is proving elusive.

Having said that, I'm aware of at least one example that is operating reliably and silently.

[chook73]

Just thought I'd give this thread a bump to see what transpired with the Ashcroft HD P38 type replacement diff.

It would be good to hear any reports of how people are finding these as some must have clocked up a fair few km now. OK so the locker probably works and gives you heaps of traction (you'd be disappointed if it didn't) but what about the noise issues that were being reported. Do they 'bed in' and become quiet over time or has removal and machining been required? Also what is the source of the noise, is it the gear profile or something else?

Anyone got some experience to share?

Thanks,

Ian.

I have a heap of km on mine (just over 10k I think), it has been re-lapped and the noise is still there.

Otherwise great.....!

[XSiV]

I have done about 12K on mine now and can report that it is still silent and smooth as ever under all conditions. Engages and disengages without any problems or noticeable noise.

Only issue I had was a leaking pinion seal which was replaced immediately upon noticing it under warranty.

[Drover]

I've got 7000k's on mine.

Still the same small whyne on de-celeration 60k's to 40k's, really not a big deal, not even sure I would pull it out once the cause has been identified.

Very smooth, engages/disengages with ease and provide confidence that ts not going to break !

No doubt Ashcroft's will sort it.

[uninformed]

I have done about 12K on mine now and can report that it is still silent and smooth as ever under all conditions. Engages and disengages without any problems or noticeable noise.

Only issue I had was a leaking pinion seal which was replaced immediately upon noticing it under warranty.

Ashcroft or LR diff???

[n plus one]

Ashcroft or LR diff???

It's an Ashcroft.

PS Hi Josh!

[ashtrans]

yes its taking some time to make progress,

the gears I had left were sent back to the manufacturer for checking, they said they were fine and have sent me 3 sets back,

we built one of these 3 sets up and set it spot on as per manufacturer /lapping specs, quiet one way, growled the other way, no good,

we then dropped the pinion 0.1mm and both ways seemed quiet, on thursday we will be putting a 110 rear axle on our 90 so we can do a real road test, then we will know for sure if its quiet at this setting or not,

Dave

[GlennWA]

Another LR rear diff to add to the list. MY12 110 replaced at 36000 but noisy at 30000.

[XSiV]

Ashcroft or LR diff???


It's an Ashcroft.

PS Hi Josh!

Yep, as Luke rightly pointed out it's an Ashcroft.

I'm taking the family to Wilsons Prom this weekend so I'll see how it performs with the full rig.

PS Hi Luke. :D

[Defender Defender]

This piece of good news may well be missed going on the last dates of this thread, but I haven't been near the net for awhile and feel it needs a bit of a cheer up. My 07 TDCi 130 dual cab has now ticked over 135 000 km and as far as I can see and hear, it is on the original diffs. If they've been changed, then I've done at least 60000 on them. It's been on a mix of surfaces and work areas including mines and dirt or gravel roads plus loads of highway travelling with loads up to a tonne. At this moment I can say I'm very happy with it though it has a way to go before it reaches the 375000 I've got out of the Isuzu 110. It's just a bright spot amid the failures and I hope there are more of the bright spots out there somewhere

[Steve A]

Hi all,

New to the forum, this topic caught my attention. I have recently purchased and installed my Ashcroft rear diff and locker conversion for my 2013 130.It is a much bigger and stronger housing, my mechanic (Canberra Motor Works) believes its the strongest diff now available. Shortened the tail shaft 31mm, and balanced. Factory job was balanced with counter-weight! Some diff whine was noticeable for while has settled down after a few weeks. I put it down to tighter stronger gears. Next job is axels, flanges and oil bearing conversion. Then front end.

[n plus one]

Hi all,

New to the forum, this topic caught my attention. I have recently purchased and installed my Ashcroft rear diff and locker conversion for my 2013 130.It is a much bigger and stronger housing, my mechanic (Canberra Motor Works) believes its the strongest diff now available. Shortened the tail shaft 31mm, and balanced. Factory job was balanced with counter-weight! Some diff whine was noticeable for while has settled down after a few weeks. I put it down to tighter stronger gears. Next job is axels, flanges and oil bearing conversion. Then front end.

Hi Steve, did you purchase through CMC or did they just do the install?

[Steve A]

Purchased from Les Richmond Automotive, installed at Canberra Motor Works.

[Overland_110]

I am waiting until I get it over here and in before I get the shaft remade, it only takes a day to rebuild the shaft so I am ok with that. Dave from Ashcroft was very adamant about the 30mm but once Drover and I have ours fitted up we will be able to give you a better idea. When you get the shaft shortened its worth getting it rebuilt as they are very thin walled from the factory.


Hi All

I have just ordered one of the HDP38 diffs from Ashcroft Transmissions. Dave Ashcroft was extremely helpful with regards to my questions and it would appear that the "whine" issue has been solved now and they are QC checking every one of these HDP38 diffs by fitting them into a Defender 90 that they have modified and taking them out for a road test to make absolutely sure. The issue was traced to an assembly/setup problem I am told.

Anyway, I will obviously be shortening my rear prop, however I am keen to know more about these "upgrades" others have carried out with regards to rebuilding the rear prop to make it stronger as they are described as "thin walled rom the factory".


Cheers Rob

[n plus one]

Hi All

I have just ordered one of the HDP38 diffs from Ashcroft Transmissions. Dave Ashcroft was extremely helpful with regards to my questions and it would appear that the "whine" issue has been solved now and they are QC checking every one of these HDP38 diffs by fitting them into a Defender 90 that they have modified and taking them out for a road test to make absolutely sure. The issue was traced to an assembly/setup problem I am told.

Anyway, I will obviously be shortening my rear prop, however I am keen to know more about these "upgrades" others have carried out with regards to rebuilding the rear prop to make it stronger as they are described as "thin walled rom the factory".

Cheers Rob

Well that's my Chrissy present sorted then!

I was planning on going a Tom Woods rear DS - I've been happy with my front DC and figured that way I could keep the stock shaft and diff as spares

[Landi]

Do ashcroft still do these HD P38 diffs? Just had a look on their website and couldn't find them

[clive22]

No they don't and they are not planning to re-introduce them either

This is from Dave at Ashcroft

Clive

[Landi]

No they don't and they are not planning to re-introduce them either

This is from Dave at Ashcroft

Clive

Any reason why? Were there reliability issues long term?

Have there been any more solutions other than Salisbury conversion? Just looking for a bit more reliability and strength to fit an ATB

[clive22]

Hi Noise Issues is what I read, I did not press for an answer from David

I grappled with the same problem and ending up sticking with a P38 but pegging the crown wheel with an Ashcroft locker'


I'm running 235/85 and using it as a family tourer with stock tyres didn't want a Sals as they are huge - even when shaved. Disk ones are hard to find too.

I don't think they are quite as weak as people make out, that is not to say they adequate for a 2 tonne off road truck. But driven sensibly I hope what i've done is alright.

Clive

[Landi]

Hi Noise Issues is what I read, I did not press for an answer from David

I grappled with the same problem and ending up sticking with a P38 but pegging the crown wheel with an Ashcroft locker'


I'm running 235/85 and using it as a family tourer with stock tyres didn't want a Sals as they are huge - even when shaved. Disk ones are hard to find too.

I don't think they are quite as weak as people make out, that is not to say they adequate for a 2 tonne off road truck. But driven sensibly I hope what i've done is alright.

Clive

Nice. Did you buy a new diff housing through ashcroft or just the pegging kit?

[clive22]

Hi
Bought it pegged as a complete assembly

I had a front one done local, but it ended up costing about the same maybe a bit more to import the entire unit built up ready to bolt in, then import a locker and get a local guy to fab it up and fit the locker.



The advantage is that i have spare bolt in diff centre to bolt in if a i do damage this one.

Took about 2 weeks from order to be built and shipped here to my door.

You have to ring 'em up to order the full assembly their website assumes your supplying your own centre.

Clive

[1nando]

The p38 puma rears had/have some setup issues. Nothing a elocker and correct setup cant fix. There are people running 37s with no issues, the bowler defender rally cars have no issues either.....