Puma 130 driveline vibration

[lrbob]

Recap:posted thread 2 to 3 yrs ago re Driveline vibration 2008 130 at 90 to 100Km/hr, worse towing or accelerating, disappeared coasting.Dealer went to great effort attempting a fix without success, finding the fault in 2 other vehicles which had not even been delivered to owners, and a complaint from another owner. L/R shipped it to Sydney and replied "drives like any other Defender" [ true only if they all have the fault] and saying that any vibration is due to bullbar, towbar, driving lights etc being fitted, even though fault there befotre any fitted. L/R refused to talk anymore under warranty.
The good news, vehicle no longer under warranty and a custom rear drive shaft has solved the problem.Imported from Tom Wood in US at 1/4 price in Australia.
Yes!!

[Marty110]

I've had the same problem in my 110 - what was the price delivered for your propshaft if you don't mind me asking?

[lrbob]

Shaft is multiple double cardan joint [double universals at each end] Also 3.5 inch diammeter tube as opposed 2.75inch original. I doubt you would need this on a 110 and would reduce cost by approx $100. Aussie dollar is slighlty higher than US dollar at present.
Cost $629 US plus $340 US delivered to my rural address.
In Oz I was quoted $800 for each double cardan joint making $1600 plus cost other materials plus labour. Then for me to travel to Melbourne and back twice would have cost half of the $340 in fuel alone. Other slower delivery methods would cost less. Mine arrived in 9 days from date of order.
To verify if this would be a fix: remove rear shaft, engage centre diff lock, and drive on front shaft only. I did not think this problem applied to the 110, only the 130.
Cheers.

[rick130]

Why a double DC on the rear of a 130 ??

The angles are less than a 110 ?

It sounds like the rear pinion angle is out of whack.

[cal415]

Woah way over kill for a rear of a 130! i am looking at doing mine too, but only uni to uni, the standard rover shafts are absolute garbage, after the issues i had with my front one from new, i couldnt beleive it was binding on the standard LR heavy duty suspension! and after reading everyone elses posts here regarding similar issues, i couldnt beleive LR's responce of "its a defender they all do that" its really just poor workmanship and poor after sales service on there part.

With my new custom front shaft all my binding issues have gone, now i only have a slight vibration under load up hill at about 100-120kph in 5th or 6th gear and i have no doubt its due to the rear shaft, i checked it over when i was playing with the front, they are pretty poorly made sound about as thick as an old tin can, i can imagine they wouldnt take much to bend or twist. I will be going a heavy duty
one as well, but i have no choice as i plan on putting a Salisbury diff under the back of it in the next few months.

[wagoo]

It would have been good for a proper engineer or old school mechanic, as opposed to Stealership hacks to have a look at the problem from first principals.Having previously run an 88'' wheelbase vehicle with Salisbury diff and raised suspension, I will never be convinced that a 130 with its long rear propshaft would require even one Double Cardan joint , never mind one at each end.
At any rate, whilst the UJs on a DC joint may be getting an easier time, it's the equalising ball and socket between the unis that has to work hard, and unless regularly serviced, depending on angularity of shaft generally have a shorter working life than a properly set up conventional propshaft arrangement.
Bill.

[lrbob]

There was 3.5 degrees between shaft and rear pinion. Also 2.5 degrees at transmiission and diff in horizontal plane, that is diff and transmission not in line. Also vertical angles change with every change of load in the vehicle. Maybe this is why vibe worse when towing or carrying a load. This is why rear shaft universals are supplied from factory out of phase like the front.
I wanted a one stop fix as living in the country any experimentation would involve much time and expense in travel. No more vibration - I'm happy. Cheers

[rick130]

:confused:

The rear uni's are in phase on a Tdi with R380 and Sals diff.
Never had a vibration problem from the rear shaft either.

[Sitec]

Hello all. To throw a completely different angle on this one, I two have a 130 that had a vibrating tail shaft. It now has 70mm lift on the nose and 40mm on the tail. Running 285's underneath it, the original high speed vibration has gone and a new low speed (40kmh) front prop vibration has arrived! Not worried tho as it's only small. Shortening the rear radius arms (5mm ish) by doctering the bushes, will bring the diff nose up by enough to put it in line with the gearbox, and IMO I don't think it's enough to starve the nose of oil.... Good luck!

[wagoo]

Hello all. To throw a completely different angle on this one, I two have a 130 that had a vibrating tail shaft. It now has 70mm lift on the nose and 40mm on the tail. Running 285's underneath it, the original high speed vibration has gone and a new low speed (40kmh) front prop vibration has arrived! Not worried tho as it's only small. Shortening the rear radius arms (5mm ish) by doctering the bushes, will bring the diff nose up by enough to put it in line with the gearbox, and IMO I don't think it's enough to starve the nose of oil.... Good luck!

I advised a lifted 90 owner on a UK forum to try fitting the rear trailing arm chassis bushings to the front side of the bracket , and fine tuning with 5/8'' washers in order to tilt the nose of the diff, and he reported that it cured his vibration issues.
Bill.

[lrbob]

Workshop manual verifies that L/R supplied 130 with universals out of phase on rear shaft to minimise the vibration they know is there.
Raising vehicle, adjusting trailing arms etc will all alter angle and may lessen or worsen vibration. Angles also vary with the load in the vehicle.
For technical advice refer Tom Wood's website. He is most helpful.
I am aware that not all 130's suffered this problem or it went unnoticed, and it does not appear to be a ptoblem with 110 even they share the same mechanicals.
Cheers

[rick130]

Which WSM ?

The one's I have show the rear uni's in phase, only the front shaft is out of phase.


"The phasing is necessary on the front shaft only to allow for greater variation in angular changes"It's a basic rear end on a 130 with a relatively long tailshaft so angular changes are less for a given amount of suspension travel compared to a 110 or worse, a 90, and a TDci has the tail of the transfer case at a lower height in the chassis than any LT85/95/77/R380 gearboxed 127/130.
If it happens in a 130 the problem will be exacerbated in a 110 and 90.

I know of TW's reputation, I plan on acquiring one of his DC front shafts for my 130, but a double DC in the rear of 130 ?
I just can't get my head around that ATM.

I suppose the point is that yes, it's a fix and it works, but is it necessary ?
Without actually eyeballing and measuring it seems like something basic has been missed ?

[Bush65]

Rick, from what Bob has described there are other changes (than what I was aware of) with the so-called Puma that contribute to the problem. I was aware of the driveline angle affecting the front shaft! but now .... !!!

I have commented in other posts on this subject concerning issues caused by small tube diameter etc. with a long driveshaft.

Edit: BTW double cardan at one end is not my first choice and not to be used unless there is no other option. As for double cardan at both ends, I dread the thought, but remember TW is working with what he can control. Fixing the angles and offsets is for others (e.g. LR) to resolve.

[lrbob]

Which WSM ?

The one's I have show the rear uni's in phase, only the front shaft is out of phase.

It's a basic rear end on a 130 with a relatively long tailshaft so angular changes are less for a given amount of suspension travel compared to a 110 or worse, a 90, and a TDci has the tail of the transfer case at a lower height in the chassis than any LT85/95/77/R380 gearboxed 127/130.
If it happens in a 130 the problem will be exacerbated in a 110 and 90.

I know of TW's reputation, I plan on acquiring one of his DC front shafts for my 130, but a double DC in the rear of 130 ?
I just can't get my head around that ATM.

I suppose the point is that yes, it's a fix and it works, but is it necessary ?
Without actually eyeballing and measuring it seems like something basic has been missed ?
The WSM is Land Rover published " Land Rover Defender, 2.4TDCi,Workshop Manual" The relevant page dated Jan 30 2009 states ' The front and rear driveshafts are phased with the joints at each end, A and B mis-aligned as shown. The phasing is necessary to allow for greater variation in angular changes. On re-assembly it is essential the driveshafts are aligned correctly'
It is interesting that the manual makes no distinction between 110 and 130 models. Mine is a 2008 130. My previous 1996 130 did not have this vibration but did have a rhythmic hum at about the same speed.
The manual states that if there is vibration then the universals sholud be checked, and then transfer box operation and wheel balance.ULR tried everything within their limits as a dealer, swapping driveshaft,gearbox,transfer box etc and could not cure. A diff specialist likewise could not solve. L/R shipped vehicle to Sydney and could not or would not solve the issue. No-one on forums could offer help. The double cardan shaft solved the problem. I'm happy. Cheers.

[rick130]

John, it'd be really interesting to know what the angles are/where everything is pointing.

It seems a lot like the P38 style rear diff, they just keep sending them out poorly setup and in JC's word's "These 2003 on 110 / 130 rear P38a diffs are rubbish. Period. The inherent design is weak, and they aren't up to it." yet LR appear ok to just keep replacing them every 40,000km or so.

The paranoid conspiracy theorist in me wonders if there's a master plan ?

"If we bleed enough money on Defender, regardless of how many we sell we can prove it's not viable and drop it" ?

[lrbob]

I should point out that the double cardan shaft was not Tom Wood's suggestion, but my own. He believed that there should be a cheaper option. However, nobody has been able to suggest one that takes into account the variation in horizontal and vertical angles and the changes due to different loads. I did not wish to import anything less than the DC shaft as it probably would not have addressed all issues and solved the problem and would have been a waste of funds. Cheers.

[rick130]

Just pulled up your original thread Bob and John makes some very valid points re tube diameter.
I've had several vehicles with long driveshafts (LWB F100, Jeep J3000 and now a GU Patrol) and all have significantly larger OD driveshafts than my '98 130, let alone bigger uni's.
Part of that is all three were part time 4WD so had a lot more torque available driving through the rear shaft, but a larger diameter is also a lot stiffer torsionally.


At least you've found a solution that works.