Puma HD Springs Question

[ScottyD]

G'Day All,

Just fitted Heavy Duty Springs all round on my 2011 110.
The problem I have now is that the Drivers Front Corner is quite high and the Passengers Rear is quite low. The other two corners look as they are suppose to be. The net result is my car leans to the left.

I just checked them again, they are the correct springs (according to the list below) and they all seem seated correctly.

Springs purchased (Woodhead? [was written on the springs] Brand):

FRONT COILS
NRC 9448 RHF BLUE/RED
NRC 9449 LHF YELLOW/WHITE

REAR COILS
NRC 6904 LHR RED/GREEN
NRC 6389 RHR RED/RED

I assumed that RHF = Driver Front, and LHR = Passenger Rear.
The list above I found on an aulro and defender2.net forum, and confirmed it on multiple parts sites.

What have a done wrong? Any ideas?

I finished installing them about 24 hours ago and in the order Passenger Rear, Driver Rear, Passenger Front, Driver Front. Do I just need to wait for them to settle a bit?

Bit worried...

Thanks!

[rick130]

Did you measure the free lengths before installing and check against the published specs ?

FWIW they are the right part #'s, and there's 1/2" difference in free length between right and left sides with the drivers side taller.

[ScottyD]

Did you measure the free lengths before installing and check against the published specs ?

FWIW they are the right part #'s, and there's 1/2" difference in free length between right and left sides with the drivers side taller.

Thanks rick130.

No I did not measure them before I put them on, I assumed checking the part numbers a million times was enough.

I suppose if the drivers side is a taller spring, then I cannot have them the wrong way around otherwise you would expect the opposite to happen.

I think I will have to put the standard rear's back in, and see if the front drivers side is too high. At least then I will know if there is something wrong with the front drivers spring or the rear passengers spring.

[tonic]

I am very much a beginner in all this so please check my idea with others, but, I have heard that with some springs if going higher you have to get an adjustable panhard rod to allow for the new height.

Red it somewhere, as I said, check my idea with others.:question:

[Allan]

I am very much a beginner in all this so please check my idea with others, but, I have heard that with some springs if going higher you have to get an adjustable panhard rod to allow for the new height.

Red it somewhere, as I said, check my idea with others.:question:

Just a dumb question but, as a beginner Why is have you posted so often?????????????:o:o:o oops missed the edit.

Allan

[rick130]

I am very much a beginner in all this so please check my idea with others, but, I have heard that with some springs if going higher you have to get an adjustable panhard rod to allow for the new height.

Red it somewhere, as I said, check my idea with others.:question:

The reason for that is that a Panhard rod swings through an arc as the suspension is cycled. This pulls the axle housing slightly sideways as the suspension moves up and down.

Having said that, the springs Scotty has used are standard 110/130 HD springs as fitted to most pre '02 Defenders and they all worked fine without an adjustable Panhard Rod.
The amount of change with the new static ride height is well within Land Rovers legendary build tolerances IMO.

If you are up at around 125mm between bump stops you might have to do something, but with a winch and bar on the front you'll be lucky to be higher than 65mm, maybe 70mm between the bump stops with those springs.

[oldyella 76]

Watch your warrantee as I was told that if I put H/duty front springs in my 2012 defender I would void my warrantee.
Lindsay.

[justinc]

G'Day All,

Just fitted Heavy Duty Springs all round on my 2011 110.
The problem I have now is that the Drivers Front Corner is quite high and the Passengers Rear is quite low. The other two corners look as they are suppose to be. The net result is my car leans to the left.

I just checked them again, they are the correct springs (according to the list below) and they all seem seated correctly.

Springs purchased (Woodhead? [was written on the springs] Brand):

FRONT COILS
NRC 9448 RHF BLUE/RED
NRC 9449 LHF YELLOW/WHITE

REAR COILS
NRC 6904 LHR RED/GREEN
NRC 6389 RHR RED/RED

I assumed that RHF = Driver Front, and LHR = Passenger Rear.
The list above I found on an aulro and defender2.net forum, and confirmed it on multiple parts sites.

What have a done wrong? Any ideas?

I finished installing them about 24 hours ago and in the order Passenger Rear, Driver Rear, Passenger Front, Driver Front. Do I just need to wait for them to settle a bit?

Bit worried...

Thanks!

id use 2 nrc6389 on the rear, i had to do that to level out my 110.

jc

[ScottyD]

id use 2 nrc6389 on the rear, i had to do that to level out my 110.

jc

Thanks jc! Nice to know I am not alone.
Just did some additional reading, did you use the NRC9448, 9449 combination on the front, or just the 9448? There seems to be a few threads around the net recommending people just to use 9448's on the front and 6389's on the rear.

I will be ordering an additional NRC6389 on Monday anyway :) Will update this thread with the results. If anyone else has any more suggestions that would be great.

[rick130]

I've never used them but companies like ARB use urethane packers to trim out the ride height.

Might be cheaper than a complete spring.

[Loubrey]

Watch your warrantee as I was told that if I put H/duty front springs in my 2012 defender I would void my warrantee.
Lindsay.

Lindsay,

It's because the only "official" reason Land Rover has is for installing HD springs is when you buy the winch package out the official accessories catalogue and the can wack you $5000.00 plus for the complete deal. If you buy OEM HD coils from the spares counter, they will have no cause to threaten you with voiding waranty.

Aftermarket HD coils that cause a lift is a completely different issue though...

[ScottyD]

Quick Update

I fitted the additional NRC6389 (LHR) on Tuesday and that completely corrected the problem I was having.

Only problem was after my first proper drive (over 50km/h), the front prop shaft was making the normal horrible sounds :( This was after a gain of 15mm on the LHF and 25mm on the RHF (taller spring). Bit scary that such a tiny change had this effect.

Therefore the front's are back out and am ordering a DC Front Prop Shaft. Was advised by a few people (thanks!) to go for a wide angle prop shaft which is about half the price, but given I would long term like to fit at least longer travel shocks and maybe a larger lift, I think the DC Shaft is a better long term decision.

Thanks.

[ScottyD]

Another Update

Purchased an "Extreme" DC Front Prop Shaft from Bailey Morris in the UK. Lovely piece of equipment, the difference in angles between the two is significant to say the least. It was reasonably priced and air freighted here within a week. Installed the Prop Shaft and the HD Springs yesterday, fixed the horrible noises I experienced earlier. If you go down the same track don't forget to ensure the prop shaft is full of grease before you use it.

Now with genuine HD springs all around, the problem I have is the front sits about 20mm higher than the front :(

I'm thinking of go going for my long term plan of a 2 inch lift and 2 inch longer travel shocks. The shock decision seems easy, Terrafirma Big Bores. But which springs? I have had a good read around, but am even more confused.
- OME's seemed to be a well trodden path, but I struggle to find details of which OME springs people use on a 110.
- Has any one used Terrafirma Springs? It would be nice to match springs and shocks I guess?
- Dobinson Springs seem popular.
- Les Richmond Automotive seems to have a very wide range of Spring options. I like their exchange policy until you get the right spring.
- King Springs?

Should I be getting dislocation cones? Read quite a few forums about springs popping out. Spring Retainers?

Do I need to take anything else into consideration? It seems like Brake Lines do not need to be extended with a 2 inch lift nor castor correction arms.

A bit of detail of the kit (items with weight anyway) on my 2011 110 Wagon.
- ARB New Style Bar
- Dual Batteries
- 2m Wind Cheetah Roof Rack
- Draw Setup with about 60kg in it all the time, a bit more for trips.
- 50Lt Fridge on Slider
- 48Lt Water Tank
- Cargo Barrier
- Mulgo Sliders
- Mulgo Bumperettes
- Foxwing Awning
- Planning on getting the 45Lt Side Fuel Tank.
- Normally have about another 100kg - 150kg of gear in the car on a trip, plus people.

Thanks All :)

[Loubrey]

Scotty,

I tried the full terrafirma setup and I was very happy with it considering how well it was priced. I sold my Defender in the UK with the full kit to a friend and he is still using it today (3 years later) to tour Scotland and Western Europe with family and camping kit.

Europe is however not Australianad you do get what you pay for (with the exception of a few brands that ride on their perceived good name rather than quality)

[newhue]

Scotty,
what did the add to the prop shaft for freight?. Does it have grease nipples?

thanks

[ScottyD]

G'Day Newhue,

Freight was 120 pounds to Sydney using DHL.
The Grease Nipples are on each of the Cardinal Joints. They were fully greased on arrival, but its still worth a check, just in case.
The DC Shaft really made the original one look pretty average.

Cheers.

[SVX37]

G'day Scotty,

I am in a similar position to you. Similar accessories and looking to do a 2 inch lift. I have also read the threads on here about the issues when lifting a Puma, but I believe there are solutions too.

I am leaning towards going to Les Richmond for the reason you mentioned and in discussing my needs with them. They rate Koni as number one and Billies number 2 - but that both are excellent.

I'm interested in why you are state "The shock decision seems easy, Terrafirma Big Bores".

Whilst I am sure they are a good product, my research on line on this forum, and in discussing with various outlets, the Koni is the first choice, closely followed by Bilstein.

Most people say that Koni is best, but I was told that the Koni Raids may be too harsh for on road by one specialist, and that Bilsteins would suit the Defender better. They also sold both and Billies are cheaper so it was an interesting perspective.

Haven't decided what to do myself yet.:p

Nigel

[Drover]

I have a 50mm lift on the front with Old man Emu springs, + 50mm Terra-Firms Pro-Sport shocks and TF heavy duty shock towers.

Rear is stock springs, TF Big Bores and Poly-Air bags.

Front prop shaft is Bailey-Morris Extreme DC.

Both front and rear works a treat, nice balance well mannered on road and good articulation off road.

I think Koni's or Billstiens are likely to be the best, but TF are such excellent value they are very hard to go past.

Cheers

[ScottyD]

G'Day Nigel,

I thought the decision was easy because:
- Found quite a few praises for them on various forums.
- Its hard to find anyone complaining about them, there is obviously always a few though.
- Daniel at Mulgo likes them - which is enough for me on its own :)

Maybe I jumped to a conclusion too quickly still.

Thanks.

[newhue]

G'day Scotty,

I am in a similar position to you. Similar accessories and looking to do a 2 inch lift. I have also read the threads on here about the issues when lifting a Puma, but I believe there are solutions too.

I am leaning towards going to Les Richmond for the reason you mentioned and in discussing my needs with them. They rate Koni as number one and Billies number 2 - but that both are excellent.

I'm interested in why you are state "The shock decision seems easy, Terrafirma Big Bores".

Whilst I am sure they are a good product, my research on line on this forum, and in discussing with various outlets, the Koni is the first choice, closely followed by Bilstein.

Most people say that Koni is best, but I was told that the Koni Raids may be too harsh for on road by one specialist, and that Bilsteins would suit the Defender better. They also sold both and Billies are cheaper so it was an interesting perspective.

Haven't decided what to do myself yet.:p

Nigel

That's interesting, I had a long chat to Les Richmond Auto recently and even though they sell Koni, they prefer Bilstein. They thought for the money with the 82 series Koni's, there are better alternatives, i.e Bilstein. They said single skin construction was not a issue, but add another $60 for shock boots and your at the cost of a double shin Koni. I have noticed Bilstein are gas, and Koni 82 series are low pressure gas with oil. So there may be some personal preference there. I don't think either will give you much trouble though. You can get Koni 90 series from the Shox.com for $1100 delivered to Brisbane. Those big boys will cope with what ever you do for a very very longtime. I have ordered mine but there is an 8 week wait.

I am considering 1 inch bigger than standard. Apart from height benefit this should also alleviate a front prop in a puma, but I have considered one in the final bill. From what I gather standard with no assessors from bump stop to diff is Front 89mm, and rear 115mm. Add a bar, plasma winch, and lights, around 60kg, and it drops to 65mm gap in the front. For me if I add 140lt (or 200kg) of sill tanks then I assume another 25mm easy. This is running standard 130 HD fronts. For me there is also second battery, tools, sliders and brush bars, and a water tank to consider and what proportion of weight is attributed to the front to factor in. To get an idea of what height I would aim for I raised the body of the vehicle on the jack to what standard is, and that is pretty good anyway and maybe the final resting spot. But add another 25mm to that and it help the sill tanks out heaps on a 130.

It's a bit of spring guess work- home work to achieve that height with the weight.
So far LRA are the only ones with a suitable solution, all the others seem to say yeh mate, HD for you, but cant tell me rates, or weights, final resting heights, only loose spring height.

[Loubrey]

G'Day Nigel,

I thought the decision was easy because:
- Found quite a few praises for them on various forums.
- Its hard to find anyone complaining about them, there is obviously always a few though.
- Daniel at Mulgo likes them - which is enough for me on its own :)

Maybe I jumped to a conclusion too quickly still.

Thanks.

If budget was of no importance there would always be better products out there and there are guys out there willing to pay those prices. The idea for the rest of us mere mortals would be to find a practical medium and the TF's would be that.

[newhue]

it horses for courses really.
If you want a lift than any suspension will do that. But ask it carry a good load over corrugations for hour upon hour, and maybe for several weeks, and then maybe year after year than one can expect some fading and replacement to happen on various brands.

It's also Asian made verse German and Dutch made. Chuck it or Repair it.

In the case for Koni 90 series I read a report that spanned over 3 years and 150 000km of corrugations on Australia's best inland tracks. He wanted to get them serviced and was advised not to bother. He was told they hold that much oil, and run at low temperatures the oil doesn't heat up enough to perish anything. This tour operator checks his quite regularly and found them never to be over 75deg, and as well carries all the crap for the tour.
He drive a Defender 130.

It also depends if the car is a 2, 5, 10+ year keeper, and yes budget.
But when I look at Jap spring sets and shocks like ironman, rancho, and the like, all of which are imported by someone else all coming in around $1300 to $1500. Or $1850 in OME's case. Then I think getting a Defender set up with something that is awesome for $1600 and importing it myself is great value.

If Koni 82 's or Bilstein were to substitute the 90 series, then you can save $600 . These figures are all import from US for shocks, with LRA springs.
I like to support Aus, and by god I have, but why on earth would someone pay $2500 when they can pay $1100 for the cost of a phone call.

just my 10c

[ScottyD]

Another Update,

Fitted the following Terrafirma gear the other day:
- Medium +2inch Lifted Springs Front and Rear
- Pro Sport +2inch Travel Front Shocks
- Big Bore +2inch Travel Rear Shocks (These are huge!)
- Front and Rear Heavy Duty Spring Retainers
- Front and Rear Dislocation Cones

First I must say the on road handling quality has increased significantly. Small bumps are soaked up well, there is a little more body roll, both nothing silly. I've also done a little offroad work (one decent hole) and the articulation is very impressive. Looking forward to a long trip :)

We were not sure if we would need the Dislocation cones, however once we installed the Springs and Shocks it was obvious they were required. The difference in downward travel is pretty impressive. Could just imagine what a +5 shock is like...

Ride Height (Bump Stop Clearances):
+ Original (Puma, 2007 Onwards [Source is a LR Document I found on this site]):
- Front = 72 +- 15mm
- Rear = 130 +- 15mm

+ Genuine HD (when fitted, With everything that I can pull out of car out)
- Front = 115mm = 33m Lift = 1.7 Inch
- Rear = 107mm = -23mm Lift = -0.9 Inch

+ Now (With everything that I can pull out of car out)
- Front = 105mm = 33m Lift = 1.3 Inch
- Rear = 130mm = 0mm Lift = 0 Inch

Even without any rear lift the car sits perfectly level at least. I'm just picturing the bottom lowering slowly once I load up the car.

Terrafirma suggest the Medium Springs will give 'around' a 2 Inch lift with 300kg in the rear, I must be at lest 50kg short of this and have zero lift.

Now I wondering how I can raise the rear a bit more...
- Should I fit higher rate springs? The Terrafirma Mediums are 300lbf/in and 435mm long. The HD's are 420lbf/in and 435mm long. I'm concerned that these will reduce articulation because they are too heavy. It is worth noting that the rates/length of TF springs and associated load rating are similar to most other manufactures. Any one had any experience?
- Should I just fit some spacers? 20mm? 30mm? and be done with it? Will this impact on offroad articulation much?
- Should I do as many suggest and put some airbags in? I've always steered clear of this because it adds complexity and my load doesn't vary much.

...Or am I missing something? :p

Thanks All,
Scott

[cal415]

Jason, i would recommend doing the DC front shaft even if your only lifting 1in, or atleast scalloping out some indents in the flange for more clearance as per the earlier prop shafts, they bind with even the slightest increase in angle. Mine was noisy from brand new because of the HD springs, after playing with the air suspensios i found even at the stock ride height of a new 110 on standard springs there was a slightly noise at 100-110 when coasting with the clutch in.

With my new custom DC shaft with 1350 uni's i can run up to 6in lift without noise... handling goes out the window but no bind on the shafts, i have been running around 2-4in lift most of the time depending on what i am doing

[Allan]

Another Update,

Fitted the following Terrafirma gear the other day:
- Medium +2inch Lifted Springs Front and Rear
- Pro Sport +2inch Travel Front Shocks
- Big Bore +2inch Travel Rear Shocks (These are huge!)
- Front and Rear Heavy Duty Spring Retainers
- Front and Rear Dislocation Cones

First I must say the on road handling quality has increased significantly. Small bumps are soaked up well, there is a little more body roll, both nothing silly. I've also done a little offroad work (one decent hole) and the articulation is very impressive. Looking forward to a long trip :)

We were not sure if we would need the Dislocation cones, however once we installed the Springs and Shocks it was obvious they were required. The difference in downward travel is pretty impressive. Could just imagine what a +5 shock is like...

Ride Height (Bump Stop Clearances):
+ Original (Puma, 2007 Onwards [Source is a LR Document I found on this site]):
- Front = 72 +- 15mm
- Rear = 130 +- 15mm

+ Genuine HD (when fitted, With everything that I can pull out of car out)
- Front = 115mm = 33m Lift = 1.7 Inch
- Rear = 107mm = -23mm Lift = -0.9 Inch

+ Now (With everything that I can pull out of car out)
- Front = 105mm = 33m Lift = 1.3 Inch
- Rear = 130mm = 0mm Lift = 0 Inch

Even without any rear lift the car sits perfectly level at least. I'm just picturing the bottom lowering slowly once I load up the car.

Terrafirma suggest the Medium Springs will give 'around' a 2 Inch lift with 300kg in the rear, I must be at lest 50kg short of this and have zero lift.

Now I wondering how I can raise the rear a bit more...
- Should I fit higher rate springs? The Terrafirma Mediums are 300lbf/in and 435mm long. The HD's are 420lbf/in and 435mm long. I'm concerned that these will reduce articulation because they are too heavy. It is worth noting that the rates/length of TF springs and associated load rating are similar to most other manufactures. Any one had any experience?
- Should I just fit some spacers? 20mm? 30mm? and be done with it? Will this impact on offroad articulation much?
- Should I do as many suggest and put some airbags in? I've always steered clear of this because it adds complexity and my load doesn't vary much.

...Or am I missing something? :p

Thanks All,
Scott

I tried the nylon type type spacers on the 90 with relocation cones and found it doesn't work. The spring just would not reseat correctly. Terra
Firma do make a spacer that fits to the bottom of the spring, This may work.Terrafirma Spring spacers | Suspension - Hardware Accessories for ... (http://www.terrafirma4x4.com/products_php.php?cat=1&grp=19)


Allan

[gasman]

I'm really confused now, after reading a billion posts on what size coils and so on.
I have just fitted a camper body to a 09' 110 ute which is heavy and have the following distance between diff and bump stops:
Front drivers side:55mm
Front passenger side: 70mm
both rears: 90mm.

The thing rolls around like a drunk on the Queen Mary. (me).
I'm not a 4wd nut. just want to tow my tinnie with camper on up to Frazer and other beaches, so there will be long hauls on major Hwys and good dirt roads.
I would like a nice ride, but be able to handle the weight also.