RRS 3.0 blowing smoke (lots of it)

[GregMilner]

Guys, my 2010 RRS 3.0 has recently picked up a bad habit - under reasonably hard acceleration it's blowing a ton of grey smoke, to the point where I'm being flagged down by other drivers to tell me about it (as if the obscured cars behind me weren't enough of a giveaway).

It's just been serviced, so I'm a bit surprised the dealer didn't pick this up when they test drove it. Seems to happen around 2000 revs - could it be a blown turbo?

It's booked in for another issue this week (steering wheel wobble under brakes - the return of a disc brake problem it was recalled for a year ago) and I'll point out the smoke issue when it goes in then, but just wondering if anybody else here has had the same problem...

The car's done less than 25,000kms since new, so it's a bit of a worry. I know it's under warranty, but still....

[MR LR]

Most modern diesels will blow smoke, considerably more then older diesels IMO, in your tag it looks like you have the car chipped, am i right?, this can contribute to the smoke blowing and if it is chipped it will probably not be covered for fueleing problems any more under warranty, if i'm wrong disregard it, our SDV6 D4 (3.0) blows smoke under hard acceleration but nothing excessive.

[GregMilner]

Thanks, yes mine always blew a little smoke (black) but not this huge cloud of grey smoke.
Not sure about the warranty issue re the chipping.

[MR LR]

I don't like the sound from grey smoke from a diesel, if it looks like its burnng white-ish like as in engine oil, i wouldn't even start it, some chips are active too, so it will change how the fuel is delivered, may need a reset, but grey rings alarm bells to me !!!!

[101RRS]

I thought that there was an issue with the second turbo suffering from some pooling of oil in certain conditions causing the white smoke. I understand the if this is the issue the turbo needs to be replaced.

I recall there are quite a few threads on this issue so a search in the D3/D4/RRS section should show up a few comments.

Garry

[GregMilner]

Thanks Gary! I found those threads, seems the problem is widespread and not at all uncommon. From my reading the other threads it does appear to be a turbo issue, and will need replacing.
I guess my concern is I've got a 1200km trip coming up in three weeks, towing a boat from Perth to Exmouth...on previous experience with a recall for brake issues a year ago it took the dealer (Barbagallo) three MONTHS to get the required parts from the UK.
I hope like hell that's not going to be the case with the turbos.

[gghaggis]

I would remove your chip immediately. Check the smoking issue after a few hours running without. Some chips are more detrimental to this issue than others. And implications for warranty work on the turbo (assuming the chip wasn't fitted by the dealer) are not good.

Cheers,

Gordon

[GregMilner]

Hmmmm....I just took the car for a drive, accelerated sharply from standstill several times. Maddenly...zero sign of blue/grey smoke!

As far as I know there's no actual removable chip in it. I believe one of the ECUs was remapped, but that was 18 months ago, and have had no problems until immediately after the most recent service 300kms ago.
(The remapping was done by a workshop in England that does this for hundreds of LR vehicles every year. I was assured at the time that it had no effect on the warranty, but now you've got me worried.)

[gghaggis]

(The remapping was done by a workshop in England that does this for hundreds of LR vehicles every year. I was assured at the time that it had no effect on the warranty, but now you've got me worried.)

So you sent your ECU to England for remapping (not chipping), or did you purchase a second ECU and have that remapped? A remap is generally safer than an intercept box (or "chip"), so doubt it would be the issue - and of course it's not obvious to the service agent!

It definitely has an effect on the warranty - provided they know it's there. The point with remaps is that they are supposed to be undetectable.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Mungus]

Interesting to note from what i have read re: blue smoke and turbo issue, that in both cases it has occurred after service with oil change?

[GregMilner]

Yes, right after the service.

The remap was done by emailing the software code to England, the workshop tweaked it, and a few hours later it was emailed back and pumped back into the ECU. That's how it was explained to me when it was done. It's not a separate intercept box.

[stig0000]

" ever since you serviced my car" :mad:

id like to see how changing oil would kill a turbo just like that, unless it was serviced some were other then a dealer.

and a if a chip/tune/remap is undertectiball to a dealer computer, how about when we drive the car?,

there is heaps of info and 3L blowing smoke, google is your friend, or just leave it to the service place to fix it,

what i would like to no is tho is it worse when its cold and clear out when hot, or all teh time, or only when hot,

[GregMilner]

Not sure about when it's hot vs when it's cold, I'll have to check that tomorrow. Certainly in second longer drive today there was no more smoke, so maybe it's only when it's cold.
And yes, there is considerably more punch in power and torque since remapping.

[stig0000]

wev had a cople of 3Ls pump out the smoke when cold and then clear out, (no they hadent run out of oil:angel:) when warmed up,

then another colpe only when hot,

then others that only after a long time of crusing, then the other end of only after alot of idling,

[David King]

My mechanic tells me, my D3 is smoking due to a choked valves in the exhaust that recyles unburnt fuel. The fix is replace the valves ($1,000) or blank them off ($400). It is like a catylitic converter for diesel.

[mowog]

The turbo issue will also have a small amount oil use associated with it. Are you burning any oil at all?

[Graeme]

Exhaust gas recirculation is not to elimate unburnt fuel, but to mix gas that has low oxygen content with the inlet air to cause delayed combustion so as to reduce noxious exhaust gases and to reduce combustion noise at idle and very low revs.

[101RRS]

Exhaust gas recirculation is not to elimate unburnt fuel, but to mix gas that has low oxygen content with the inlet air to cause delayed combustion so as to reduce noxious exhaust gases and to reduce combustion noise at idle and very low revs.

I also understood the EGRs to kick in on any trailing throttle - as you said when air intake is low. I must admit that I thought the ECU would cut back fuel irrespective of throttle to keep the fuel mix optimal to that EGRs would not be necessary - but obviously not.

My recent experience with Egr faults showed that the issue may not actually be the EGR - in my case it was a dodgy electrical connector which stopped the EGR from working - a play around with the connector had it working again with no faults (so far). It does pay to look at the easy things first.

Garry

[GregMilner]

The turbo issue will also have a small amount oil use associated with it. Are you burning any oil at all?

No, don't seem to be burning any oil. It's quite strange, it only happens every so often, and when I actually try to make it smoke, nothing happens. Yet it'll happen of its own accord intermittently. Weird.

[jonesy63]

Could your RRS have a DPF and it only smokes when regenerating?

[Disco4SE]

Greg, I noticed that your RRS is 'Superchip enhanced'.
Was the vehicle smoking before the installation of the chip??

Cheers, Craig

[GregMilner]

Could your RRS have a DPF and it only smokes when regenerating?

Er...DPF? Getting way out of my league now:)

[GregMilner]

Greg, I noticed that your RRS is 'Superchip enhanced'.
Was the vehicle smoking before the installation of the chip??

Cheers, Craig

It wasn't chipped as such Craig, it was remapped when it was new, and only started smoking recently, 18 months later.
In any case, just heard from the dealer and they're bringing in a new turbo for me. Thankfully.

[Celtoid]

Could your RRS have a DPF and it only smokes when regenerating?

I have a DPF on my 3.0l D4 and it has regenerated a couple of times in the 2 years + that I've had the car.......no noticeable smoke or performance issues.

Light comes on in the dash with the warning notice and turns off after a few minutes of normal driving. Does register a fault code however, according to LR.

Cheers,

Kev.

[Celtoid]

" ever since you serviced my car" :mad:

id like to see how changing oil would kill a turbo just like that, unless it was serviced some were other then a dealer.



There was a guy a while ago....many, many threads ago.....that had just had his new D4 HSE (3.0l) serviced. He was cursing all things LR, the D4 and the 3.0l engine. He couldn't turn the engine off.

I can't remember exactly but I think he'd had an oil level indicator issue after the service and then the 'runaway' problem. I don't think he ever came back on the forum and fully explained the outcome but the concensus was that LR had overfilled the engine and this had overpressurised and had blown a seal into one or both turbos, thus feeding the engine with it's own oil instead of diesel.

[marco110]

Hi
Sorry , I don't read all , but : what about EGR ?
No message on the dash ?.......

Marc.

[GregMilner]

Well, this will be interesting. Local LR dealer has had the car for three days now, it's due back today with replacement turbo. Fingers crossed everything's back to normal.

[Dougal]

I would be suspecting the chip.

Here's the deal. Diesel engines, particularly high performance ones run a maximum amount of fuel that can be burnt cleanly and safely with the air available. To increase the power (as chips or remaps do) the maximum fuelling is increased, this can result in smoke and exhaust temperatures that are dangerously hot for pistons and turbochargers. If the turbo boost pressure is raised at the same time then the exhaust is cooled back down to safe levels, but the loads on the turbochargers increase and they may now have to work outside safe limits of turbocharger rpm and pressure ratios.

Either way, your remap has made life a lot harder for your engine and turbochargers, not to mention the driveline which has to take the extra torque.
I suspect if the dealer finds out about the remap (quite easy for a clued up dealer, they simply read the ECU map and compare to what it should have) then you would be paying for this turbocharger yourself and any future problems related to the engine, turbochargers or driveline.

[GregMilner]

Good advice, thanks Dougal. Might be time to reverse the remap.

[DiscoWeb]

Er...DPF? Getting way out of my league now:)

DPF (diesel particulate filter) I think.

In my very layman non tech speak this basically captures some of the heavy particles produced by burning diesel and filters them out of the exhaust.

Generally normal driving will allow these to be burnt off as the engine will operate at a high enough temperature for the filter to effectively clean, burn off these particles.

If for some reason you do not operate the vehicle in way that this occurs, i.e. very light right foot then the engine will run at a higher rpm for a period of time to generate the heat and burn this off.

In saying that I am sure that there would be warning all over the place advising you of this and from memory (reading my manual 3 years ago when my D3 was new) it would advise you to drive around at 2,500 or 3,000 rpm for 30 min or so to complete this.

Please note most of the above is based purely on my recollection with little to no technical expertise to back it up and could be 100% wrong. But I am sure DPF stand for Diesel particulate filter !!!

Sound like the turbo anyway so interested to hear how you get on with the new one, hopefully warranty is not an issue.

George

[Dougal]

Remaps are always sold as good clean fun, but the reality is a lot of modern vehicles are quite highly strung from the factory.
It's very easy for tuners with the right equipment (ECU reading cables/software and winols) to alter the maps or even dump in maps they have bought pre-tweaked.

But it is very difficult, time consuming and expensive to work through the engine and drivetrain to find what is a safe limit and what isn't. Because it's too hard, they simply don't. Many are relying on their customers to do the testing and sometimes it can take a long time for problems to show.

There certainly are good tuners out there and also engines with factory tunes which can be safely improved upon without problems.
My work car is an efi diesel and one I have remapped myself. But I do this knowing exactly what I am risking. Currently it's pretty risk free, the car doesn't even have a turbo. But next week my spare engine, new turbo and gearbox should turn up. I also have boost and egt gauges ready to go in.

There is no way I would run a remapped engine (even one I remapped myself) at altitude, towing or in hot climates without EGT and boost gauges.

Do the Aus/NZ spec 3.0 RRS have a DPF? The dealers tell me the current D4 3.0 doesn't, but the coming 8 speed version will.

[jonesfam]

DPF's are pretty standard on modern diesels, the D3 has 1 so I would have thought the D4 would.
From trolling the net/Web thing I think there are 2 types, 1 that burns off the particles by producing very high temps & a type that has to be cleaned at service.
Our Pathfinder had a burn type that wouldn't burn, had to be replace, just 1 of 100 problems with that car.
Jonesfam

[Graeme]

My 3.0 D4 is not fitted with a DPF although the first batch built were for EU certification purposes and some of those were in Australia's 1st shipment. The 3.0's DPF can be regenerated whilst driving by late injection of extra fuel which causes the catalytic converter to heat up sufficiently to burn the accumulated particulates in the DPF but can also be done using diagnostics if driving conditions aren't sufficient.

[jonesfam]

Thanks.
I wonder how they get the D4 past emission standards?
From my reading, & lets face it the net/web thing is not 100%, the DPF gets the large particles out?
It is some time ago I looked into this so I could be miss-remembering.
Jonesfam

[Graeme]

IIRC the 3.0 needs a DPF to meet the EU5 standards. The 2.7 doesn't and that's why they are not available in the UK any more.

Yes, diesel particulate filter.

[Dougal]

The 3.0 TDV6 is built to two emissions specs.
EU4 has no DPF.
EU5 has a DPF.

Which one is currently being sold in Aus and NZ?

[Graeme]

I understand that Australia hasn't adopted EU5 yet so there shouldn't be any 3.0s with DPFs apart from those initial few.

[Disco4SE]

Back to the Chip.
I am lead to believe that most modern engines are de-tuned (I know that the 3.0Lt is) and are capable of handling more power & torque.

The extra power & torque added by a chip is only ever for short bursts and installed correctly shouldn't raise EGT's beyond extremes.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers, Craig

[Dougal]

Back to the Chip.
I am lead to believe that most modern engines are de-tuned (I know that the 3.0Lt is) and are capable of handling more power & torque.

The extra power & torque added by a chip is only ever for short bursts and installed correctly shouldn't raise EGT's beyond extremes.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers, Craig

The people who would know how "detuned" the engines are the engineers who designed and calibrated it. These are never the people telling you it's safe to just crank it up.
The safety margins that exist in the engine tunes to to compensate for events like hot ambient temps, higher altitude and sustained high load (towing for example). If you want to use this margin and more on a daily basis, then it's not there to protect the engine and it's parts when you need it to.

Look back at what 3 litre diesels used to do. Not even 100kw or 300Nm and not that long ago. Now we are looking at double that. Everything in the engine, on the engine and between the engine and wheels is working a lot harder than it used to. At the same time engines are getting lighter.


A wise man from another country was thinking about a different method (lpg fumigation) when he wrote this, but it's perfectly applicable.
"It's like giving Grandpa speed then taking him to the gym and seeing how much he can bench-press. Over and over again."

The "short bursts of power" works for a diesel running a very hot tune in a small and light car. They can literally only use full power for a few seconds and they are well past the speed limit. Few hills will keep a light diesel car at full load either.
But we aren't talking about small and light cars. We are talking 4wd's which weigh close to 3 ton empty, are often loaded up with a lot of gear and tow more than their own weight too.

Safety margin. Yes please.

[Celtoid]

I'm certain there is a Jag sedan running around with a variant of the same engine with twin turbo's. It produces more power and torque.

However, as previously stated this outcome was part of a design by LR/Jag engineers, so all considerations had been taken into account.

[justinc]

I'm certain there is a Jag sedan running around with a variant of the same engine with twin turbo's. It produces more power and torque.

However, as previously stated this outcome was part of a design by LR/Jag engineers, so all considerations had been taken into account.

...and the jag wouldn't see flat maggot for very long before it ran out of road or hit the speed limiter with that engine:eek:

Dougal is correct about working them hard, engine capacities are getting smaller, yet outputs are getting higher, and vehicles heavier. Obviously they aren't designing for longevity here...EGT gauges are very important, we tested a (non chipped) ZD30 Auto Pootrol (after we fitted the new engine at 103,000km) with an upstream Pyro and saw 800Degrees up a short hill WITHOUT his 18 foot caravan attached....no idea how stratospheric his temps were before the old engine blew, he was towing at 95 into a headwind for 4 hours....


JC

[Disco4SE]

One of the AULRO members is associated somehow with 'Chip It' add on performance chip.
They have a guage which shows Exhaust Gas Temperatures as you are driving.
Good idea I think.

Cheers, Craig

[gghaggis]

Caution is always advisable when increasing the std output of any engine. It is true however, that quite a few modern European engines are designed for higher outputs than the initial production vehicle produces. This is to provide a shorter development cycle to the periodic "improved" outputs over the life-cycle of the motor, to maintain competitiveness.

Note that the 3.0 ltr has already gained 10KW over the original output, and the Supercharged 5 ltr V8 is rumoured to put out 600bhp prior to being detuned in both the LR and Jag factories.

Without knowing the design specs for the failure envelope of the engine, it's difficult to say that X remap with Y additional output is safe, but with proper monitoring and a conservative approach, I think these engines can realistically be remapped.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Dougal]

Caution is always advisable when increasing the std output of any engine. It is true however, that quite a few modern European engines are designed for higher outputs than the initial production vehicle produces. This is to provide a shorter development cycle to the periodic "improved" outputs over the life-cycle of the motor, to maintain competitiveness.

The core engine yes. But components like turbochargers are matched for the delivered output. The only way to know there is extra capacity in a turbocharger is to measure the pressures in and out and plot it out on a compressor map. Compressor maps for OEM turbos are usually unavailable to the public.

Generally through an engines lifecycle as power increases the compression ratio drops, the turbochargers change and the manifolds and heads have been known to be redesigned with the lessons learnt from the earlier, lower power, engines.

[gghaggis]

But we are specifically talking about the current crop of LR engines. There has been no redesign of any (major) components in the 3.0 or the 5.0 SC since their introduction. I'm reasonably confident that a well-designed remap or retune (via pulley wheels, exhaust etc) would be safe in these particular motors. You may draw a differnet personal conclusion - but we're all guessing really, as we don't know what the engine and components are designed for. In my case, I'm happy to concede to the experience of the major British tuners who seem to pull reasonable increases out of these engines whilst remaining durable.

I've been pretty careful in what I pick over the last 7 years, and haven't had a problem with such devices. Others have experienced different things.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

My SIL works for a major engine ancilliary manufacturer that makes alternators, starter motors etc for motor vehicles as one of its activities. During testing, temperature sensors are placed in the engine bay to make sure the various temperatures don't exceed the vehicle manufacturer's stated maximum temperatures in which the ancilliaries are required to operate. The high output requirements of current-day alternators can mean they will sometimes be operating close to their maximum temperature. Depending on prevailing enviromental conditions, increasing power output without increasing cooling system capacity has the potential to increase engine bay temperatures beyond the design capacity of some equipment. Just because an engine in a higher state of tune is fitted to some other vehicle, the cooling system capacity and engine bay design to remove hot air is not necessarily the same.

[400HPONGAS]

SIL's Risk and Reliability Engineering ,welcome to my world Graeme !I cant work out what dougal is saying either ,the real worlds nothing like that..Just so happens ,I was just talking/Skypng to Richard Ledger, head of Turbo Technics turbo rebuilding facility in the UK whom have the exclusive licence to rebuild all turbo's'for Landrover.
Very interesting to talk to.They ,the rebuilders are just coming to grips with elctronic actuation system.(the reason you have to buy the whole turbo and controller when all that is wrong is the stepper motor !)

[Dougal]

But we are specifically talking about the current crop of LR engines. There has been no redesign of any (major) components in the 3.0 or the 5.0 SC since their introduction. I'm reasonably confident that a well-designed remap or retune (via pulley wheels, exhaust etc) would be safe in these particular motors. You may draw a differnet personal conclusion - but we're all guessing really, as we don't know what the engine and components are designed for. In my case, I'm happy to concede to the experience of the major British tuners who seem to pull reasonable increases out of these engines whilst remaining durable.

I've been pretty careful in what I pick over the last 7 years, and haven't had a problem with such devices. Others have experienced different things.

Cheers,

Gordon

I'm not talking about the SC petrol engines, I don't have any interest in those. I'm talking specifically about the turbocharged diesels.

My point is, the guys who are remapping these do not have the knowledge to make the call that their modifications are safe. They are simply putting the risk on the customer and using them as their beta-testers. This is fine as long as the customer knows this.

Ask your remappers what the torque limits for the gearbox is? Expect a blank stare.
Ask your remappers how much extra heat can be rejected through the intercoolers and radiators on a 35C day without putting the entire engine-bay over it's maximum intended temperature?
Ask them what the pressure ratio and surge/choke limits of the turbochargers are.

The ~4% landrover has increased the power on the 3.0 TDV6 isn't comparable to the increases sold by remappers. Nor are solutions which work in the UK (where it's flat and cold) directly applicable world-wide.

My point is, there are real and significant risks involved in getting a modern diesel vehicle remapped. The main ones are failure of turbochargers and gearboxes, which are rather expensive. Know those risks before spending your money.

Dealer warranty does not cover aftermarket tunes, it is very easy for a clued up dealer to check your ECU not only to see if the current program matches, but some ECU's tell them how many read/writes have been undertaken.

[400HPONGAS]

Hmm ,lots of conjecture !
GGhaggis,how about you bring your RRS 3 Litre down to the Kwinana Motorplex on a "Whoop ass Wednesday" We can set up either yours or mine Torque plus/OBD2 readers and map exactly the times/speeds on regarding boost/fuel pressures.The accel / braking generated G's also works spot on (and with the GPS check the 60ft/1000Ft )What do the manufacturers claim for a 1/4 mile time for a D4 and a RRS ?
The vehicles will be weighed accurately before and after testing
The point should be how well against a known standard does your vehicle perform,not necessarily what difference do performance modification make.(probably establish 2 Launch strategies ,eg sport and and standard drive)
Be good to Have "DORKO" there as well as he has been down the Chip it path.
MOROSO says at 2.5 Ton and 253HP = 17.14 @ 78.5 MPH ,at 3 ton 18.22 73.9mph

[Disco4SE]

My query with a re-map or chip, is how much time would you spend over and above the engines recommended parameters.

For instance, if you are towing (or not) at 100 Kph, the re-map / chip would rarely be used. It would only be for that burst when you are overtaking etc I would imagine.

Providing that you aren't on boost the whole time, I can't see that the extra power / torque would do any damage, especially given that the engine is de-tuned to begin with.

Cheers, Craig

[Dougal]

My query with a re-map or chip, is how much time would you spend over and above the engines recommended parameters.

For instance, if you are towing (or not) at 100 Kph, the re-map / chip would rarely be used. It would only be for that burst when you are overtaking etc I would imagine.

Providing that you aren't on boost the whole time, I can't see that the extra power / torque would do any damage, especially given that the engine is de-tuned to begin with.

Cheers, Craig

The remap vs chip thing. In the early days ECU's weren't reprogrammable, so performance changes involved unsoldering the factory chip and soldering in a new one.
This isn't done any more.

Tuning boxes vs remaps are the current ways of doing it. Tuning boxes plug in between the engine sensors and ecu to trick the ecu into holding injectors open longer. These are generally working on fuel rail pressure and should be avoided.
Remaps involve pulling the original configuration files out of the ECU and altering the maps inside and then reloading the altered file back into the ECU. This is the only sane way to do it, but how good the results are depends on how good the tuner is and how much they know about the engine, the turbochargers, the vehicle and it's use.

How often are you using the extra torque of a remap? Every time you accelerate more than gently, every open road hill and every time you tow. The air/fuel maps are usually changed in a remap which means even at cruise your engine could be running hotter exhaust temps.
It all depends on who tuned the remap and what they think is a good idea.

Modern diesel engines are on boost pretty much the whole time, idle is the only time they aren't. Who told you they are detuned?

[gghaggis]

I'm not talking about the SC petrol engines, I don't have any interest in those. I'm talking specifically about the turbocharged diesels.

My point is, the guys who are remapping these do not have the knowledge to make the call that their modifications are safe. They are simply putting the risk on the customer and using them as their beta-testers. This is fine as long as the customer knows this.


But are you talking about (and have experience with) the 3.0 ltr LR diesel? Or are you referring to the older TD5/TDI motors?

And I would trust Pete Bell from Bell Auto Sevices to know far more about the torque/power limits of _any_ LR motor than you're implying. BAS map LR's for racing, Sahara treks etc. Maybe you should talk to him (he's on here occasionally) and see if you get any "blank stares"? Not all tuners are the same, as I've said - with caution you can get someone who knows what they're talking about.

And no, a reputable remap does NOT affect the read/write count of the ECU. They've got around the encryption.

Cheers,

Gordon

[gghaggis]

Hmm ,lots of conjecture !
GGhaggis,how about you bring your RRS 3 Litre down to the Kwinana Motorplex on a "Whoop ass Wednesday" We can set up either yours or mine Torque plus/OBD2 readers and map exactly the times/speeds on regarding boost/fuel pressures.The accel / braking generated G's also works spot on (and with the GPS check the 60ft/1000Ft )What do the manufacturers claim for a 1/4 mile time for a D4 and a RRS ?
The vehicles will be weighed accurately before and after testing
The point should be how well against a known standard does your vehicle perform,not necessarily what difference do performance modification make.(probably establish 2 Launch strategies ,eg sport and and standard drive)
Be good to Have "DORKO" there as well as he has been down the Chip it path.
MOROSO says at 2.5 Ton and 253HP = 17.14 @ 78.5 MPH ,at 3 ton 18.22 73.9mph

Nice idea, but my car is no longer standard (oversize tyres, roof-rack, protection plates, multiple batteries etc etc), so the comparison wouldn't be valid.

When it was closer to std, I ran a 0-100 kph sprint at the RAC track. Average of 4 runs was 8.5s, best was 8.1 (cf 9.3s for std vehicle) - that was on mud tyres, 255/55R19.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Disco4SE]

Who told you they are detuned?

I was told by a very well known and respected Gentlemen in Melbourne whom has been part of Landrover for about 50 years.

For instance, the same motor in the Jag puts out 200Kw compared to the Discovery 180Kw.

Its pretty common knowledge that all modern engines are not tuned to thier absolute maximium.

Cheers, Craig

[Dougal]

I was told by a very well known and respected Gentlemen in Melbourne whom has been part of Landrover for about 50 years.

For instance, the same motor in the Jag puts out 200Kw compared to the Discovery 180Kw.

Its pretty common knowledge that all modern engines are not tuned to thier absolute maximium.

Cheers, Craig

That's the safety margin I mentioned earlier. When tuned to "the absolute maximum" there is no safety margin and reliability approaches zero.


But are you talking about (and have experience with) the 3.0 ltr LR diesel? Or are you referring to the older TD5/TDI motors?

And I would trust Pete Bell from Bell Auto Sevices to know far more about the torque/power limits of _any_ LR motor than you're implying. BAS map LR's for racing, Sahara treks etc. Maybe you should talk to him (he's on here occasionally) and see if you get any "blank stares"? Not all tuners are the same, as I've said - with caution you can get someone who knows what they're talking about.

And no, a reputable remap does NOT affect the read/write count of the ECU. They've got around the encryption.

Cheers,

Gordon

I'm talking general terms. I haven't remapped any LR diesel, my LR diesel is purely mechanical. My EFI diesels are a different make.
At least with the TD5 and 200/300TDi the compressor maps were available.

I'm aware of BAS's work and yes I would trust their remaps more than other aftermarket tuners. But the complete knowledge set for a tune won't be known outside JLR and their engine development contractors.

The encryption in ECU's is two levels. One is to get at the configuration file, the other is the checksums on the file which is required to be correct before the ECU will accept the new file. The read/write count is different again, they may have a way around it, but most tuners don't. I see their website says "In some cases " and "most diagnostic reading tools cannot tell it has ever been tuned".

They talk about up to 285hp (210kw) and 700Nm from a 3.0 TDV6 with just the remap.
There is no free lunch, the exta 30kw and 100Nm adds to either or both of higher EGT's and higher boost (depending on how it is done), it also puts higher loads through the driveline.

Those changes may give you no problems at all. But there is a higher risk of failure involved with all those parts.
The OP has a remap and a blown small turbo.

[gghaggis]

We basically agree - be aware of the dangers of remaps. But I took issue with your generalisation of all tuners returning a "blank stare" - not all tuners are alike.

My experience is with the TDV6 engines, and yes I'm well aware of the encryption routines used in the Bosch ECU's.

You should note also, that the 3 ltr TDV6 has inbuilt EGT sensors and will trigger a reduced engine performance if you exceed the set temps.

This of course, does not make the car immune to greater wear, so as you say, "no free lunch". But it's not all as doom-and-gloom as you're portraying.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Disco4SE]

We basically agree - be aware of the dangers of remaps. But I took issue with your generalisation of all tuners returning a "blank stare" - not all tuners are alike.

My experience is with the TDV6 engines, and yes I'm well aware of the encryption routines used in the Bosch ECU's.

You should note also, that the 3 ltr TDV6 has inbuilt EGT sensors and will trigger a reduced engine performance if you exceed the set temps.

This of course, does not make the car immune to greater wear, so as you say, "no free lunch". But it's not all as doom-and-gloom as you're portraying.

Cheers,

Gordon

Pretty much what I was trying to get across.
Well said Gordon.

Cheers, Craig

[Dougal]

I'm good at doom and gloom.:D

Cheers
Dougal

P.S. The current crop of VAG tdi's are also running what looks like EGT sensors, likely the same or similar bosch control scheme. The EGT is a necessary part of the DPF burn-off which not all vehicles currently have, but all seem to have the capability.

[GregMilner]

Mmmm. All food for thought. I got the car back last Friday after the new turbo was installed, and assumed everything would be back to normal. And it was, for a day or two.
Then, yesterday I was leaving work for the 1.5km drive home. It takes me up a reasonably steep hill pretty much straight out of the office, so I gave it a bit of stick - maybe 2,800rpm - and yup, there was that cloud of blue smoke again.

I wondered whether this might have something to do with living so close to the office, and the car isn't warming up sufficiently. But I don't think it can be that either - I was towing my trailer boat (about 1.2tonne all up) home from the boat ramp on Sunday and pulled out to pass a slow car on the freeway at about 80kph and it blew smoke then too. And it was well and truly warmed up by then.

Yes, it IS the same engine, albeit detuned from 200kw down to 180, as used in the XF Jaguar. The remapping takes it back up to about 200kw I believe, and 667nm from the original 600. I have contacted the remapping people - they assure me it cannot be the remap, but I think it's time to reverse it, for safety's sake.

[Dougal]

How many km have you done since the turbo swap?
It can take some time to burn out residual oil in the exhaust and other places following a turbo failure.

[GregMilner]

Oh I guess only about 100km since the turbo replacement. And almost all of that was towing the boat.

[Graeme]

The I/C on mine was cleaned as part of the turbo replacement. Was your I/C also cleaned?

[GregMilner]

You mean intercooler? Yeah it was Graeme, at least that's what the service manager told me. Interesting, I was just driving home and thought I'd test some advice here on the forum to hold it in gear (3rd) and run it at 2,500 to 3,000 rpm for a stretch to see if it burnt off some of whatever is causing the smoke. It was emitting thin blue smoke while I maintained those revs.
Then I went back to drive, stopped, took from the lights at brisk acceleration, and bang on 2,900 revs, puff goes a big cloud of blue smoke. It stopped as soon as the car changed up a gear and the revs dropped.
Got me beat.
I think I'll have to take an LR technician for a drive.

[scarry]

Just for interest, today i followed a new D4 3.0l through town
& noticed everytime the driver took off at the lights there were large puffs of smoke from each exhaust pipe.
The smoke was black so presume fuel & normal.

[discotwinturbo]

Just for interest, today i followed a new D4 3.0l through town
& noticed everytime the driver took off at the lights there were large puffs of smoke from each exhaust pipe.
The smoke was black so presume fuel & normal.

Mine is the same....boot it and the smoke comes out. Not excessive, but compared to my touareg with the v6 tdi, it is excessive. Put your finger into the exhaust tailpipe on the touareg and nothing.....disco gives you very dirty sooty fingers. Definitely not a visibly clean output.

Brett....

[Disco4SE]

I have contacted the remapping people - they assure me it cannot be the remap, but I think it's time to reverse it, for safety's sake.

Greg, I am assuming that the remap was done by a reputable agent / mechanic?
I only know of one place in the UK and one in OZ that I would trust.

Re: The black smoke. They all blow some sort of smoke under heavy acceleration...........nature of a diesel.
I have noticed recently that the Mercedes ML diesels blow heaps of smoke, even under normal acceleration.

Cheers, Craig

[tomtba]

Good advice, thanks Dougal. Might be time to reverse the remap.

Wait until the new turbo is on and tested before you get rid of the re-map. I know dozens of people who have had the new turbo and have the re-map (not all from England though) and the smoke dissapeared after the replacement.
Out of curiosity did they tell you how they change the secondary turbo responsible for the smoke?!? :eek:

[Dougal]

Mine is the same....boot it and the smoke comes out. Not excessive, but compared to my touareg with the v6 tdi, it is excessive. Put your finger into the exhaust tailpipe on the touareg and nothing.....disco gives you very dirty sooty fingers. Definitely not a visibly clean output.

Brett....

Does your touareg have a DPF?

[FarmerBuzz]

Our 3td discovery 4 has had it fixed geometry turbo replaced after extensive
testing. It is the fourth that the Dealer has replaced and seems to be more of a problem with the earlier discovery 4s.
regards Buzz

[discotwinturbo]

Does your touareg have a DPF?

Hi Dougal,

Dpf....not that I am aware of...nothing in the manual either about a dpf. It has urea (this is what the vw technicians call it.....not sure if this is the same as add blue) that is injected into the exhaust. A little container is inside the spare tyre section, that is topped up at each service. Did have a light come on for this on one occasion in the last 100,000 k's.

It has a nice smell to the exhaust, where as the D4 smells like a diesel.

Brett.....

[Dougal]

Hi Dougal,

Dpf....not that I am aware of...nothing in the manual either about a dpf. It has urea (this is what the vw technicians call it.....not sure if this is the same as add blue) that is injected into the exhaust. A little container is inside the spare tyre section, that is topped up at each service. Did have a light come on for this on one occasion in the last 100,000 k's.

It has a nice smell to the exhaust, where as the D4 smells like a diesel.

Brett.....

I suspect it would have a DPF, most VAG diesels in the last four or so years do. If you have a clean inside exhaust then the DPF is the reason why.

[discotwinturbo]

I suspect it would have a DPF, most VAG diesels in the last four or so years do. If you have a clean inside exhaust then the DPF is the reason why.

Was just googling it.....apparently dpf was from 2006 on the V6 diesel and adblue from 2007.

Adblue may be the reason for the nice smell.

Brett...

[GregMilner]

Greg, I am assuming that the remap was done by a reputable agent / mechanic?
I only know of one place in the UK and one in OZ that I would trust.

Re: The black smoke. They all blow some sort of smoke under heavy acceleration...........nature of a diesel.
I have noticed recently that the Mercedes ML diesels blow heaps of smoke, even under normal acceleration.

Cheers, Craig

Yes Craig, it was done by Superchips UK, via their local agent. And I'm blowing blue smoke, not black.

[GregMilner]

Our 3td discovery 4 has had it fixed geometry turbo replaced after extensive
testing. It is the fourth that the Dealer has replaced and seems to be more of a problem with the earlier discovery 4s.
regards Buzz

Yep, sounds about right, mine is a March 2010 build, same engine as the D4.

[Dougal]

Was just googling it.....apparently dpf was from 2006 on the V6 diesel and adblue from 2007.

Adblue may be the reason for the nice smell.

Brett...

Adblue is an alternative to EGR for reducing NOx.

[FarmerBuzz]

Our d4 does not blow smoke now the turbo has been replaced. The symptoms we had though were, cruse along for some time with rpm below 2000 then accelerate hard and a large amount of pale blue smoke would be produced.
If you repeated this a few times you would get no smoke as the oil build up would be dissipated. They was also a slight oil consumption rise while we had this problem. Also there is no add blue used in the exhaust system in these vehicles.

[Dougal]

Also there is no add blue used in the exhaust system in these vehicles.

Correct, the LR engines use EGR instead of Ad-blue. The Ad-blue was a side-track about VW V6 diesels.

[GregMilner]

Our d4 does not blow smoke now the turbo has been replaced. The symptoms we had though were, cruse along for some time with rpm below 2000 then accelerate hard and a large amount of pale blue smoke would be produced.
If you repeated this a few times you would get no smoke as the oil build up would be dissipated. They was also a slight oil consumption rise while we had this problem. Also there is no add blue used in the exhaust system in these vehicles.

Yep, that's exactly the symptoms for my car. Even after the turbo replacement. So where is the oil accumulating before it's burnt off?

[GregMilner]

Our d4 does not blow smoke now the turbo has been replaced. The symptoms we had though were, cruse along for some time with rpm below 2000 then accelerate hard and a large amount of pale blue smoke would be produced.
If you repeated this a few times you would get no smoke as the oil build up would be dissipated. They was also a slight oil consumption rise while we had this problem. Also there is no add blue used in the exhaust system in these vehicles.

So FarmerBuzz, had you had any remapping or chipping done prior to the turbo issue?

[Graeme]

My D4 had the same habit as FarmerBuzz except that there was no discernable oil usage due to the low number of incidents. No remapping of mine, just an early build. As the turbo was replaced only last week, I haven't detected if the problem has been cured. However it has never burnt oil at higher revs, only accumulating oil over hours of driving using only the primary turbo.

Greg,
Only a guess but I suspect your primary turbo has a problem at high revs and that the secondary turbo was replaced because generally they have been the culprit.

[GregMilner]

My D4 had the same habit as FarmerBuzz except that there was no discernable oil usage due to the low number of incidents. No remapping of mine, just an early build. As the turbo was replaced only last week, I haven't detected if the problem has been cured. However it has never burnt oil at higher revs, only accumulating oil over hours of driving using only the primary turbo.

Greg,
Only a guess but I suspect your primary turbo has a problem at high revs and that the secondary turbo was replaced because generally they have been the culprit.

Graeme thanks for that...could well be. I'm sure it was the secondary turbo they replaced. I also assumed the primary turbo stopped spinning once the secondary one took over. Obviously not. I'll take it back to the dealer and take them for a drive.

[Celtoid]

Graeme thanks for that...could well be. I'm sure it was the secondary turbo they replaced. I also assumed the primary turbo stopped spinning once the secondary one took over. Obviously not. I'll take it back to the dealer and take them for a drive.

I'm no expert at all but there are different set ups for twin turbo engines for whatever reason.

My Merc sedan is a twin turbo but it has a bypass that shuts down the primary and fires up the secondary at a pre-determined rev range.

I think the V8 twin in the RR is another set up again. I don't know what Toyo do with their V8 diesel.

What's the term?...serial and parrallel...variable and fixed geometery/vein......and I guess there are combo's of something in between.

I've read that the D4 primary turbo pushes through the secondary and then feeds the secondary once it hits it's optimum rev range. Physically I have no idea how that works and would love a comprehensive description and maybe a few stick drawings :). I have ideas about how that might work but can't claim anything further than ideas.

I've gone through the turbo replacement and was led to believe it's the fact that in the first build D4's (and I guess RR with the same engine) that the secondary turbo would not get worked often enough or hard enough, causing a build up of oil, then causing over pressurisation...which actually means it failed to deal with this issue...a design flaw!

Meant to add, it's strange that the same engine produces so many different symptoms. My 3.0l, even with a dodgy turbo has never blown smoke or consumed oil.

Cheers.

[FarmerBuzz]

We videoed the the problem from in the car with the phone

[GregMilner]

We videoed the the problem from in the car with the phone

Good idea. I'll do the same.:)

[Disco4SE]

Haven't had a problem with my Sept 2009 build 3.0Lt D4. Must be one of the lucky ones.
You would think that if the problem was too wide spread, Landrover would do a re-call.

Cheers, Craig

[Graeme]

The primary turbo is the larger one and does most of the work. The secondary is small and only assists higher up the range, with inlet and exhaust valves fitted to isolate it when not required. The 2nd turbo does not push air through the primary. The original s/w kept the 2nd turbo isolated until 2500 rpm (not 2900). This was very detectable during modest acceleration and also if upshifted soon after as the return to 1 turbo due to revs dropping below 2500 when still accelerating was not smooth. LR was working on having the 2nd turbo working just a little all the time to prevent the oil accumulation but I don't know if LR persisted with that change. LR now replace the 2nd turbo as the cure without any investigation, acting only on customer's reports. The primary is variable vane like the 2.7 and the secondary fixed like the TD5.

[SBD4]

.....I've read that the D4 primary turbo pushes through the secondary and then feeds the secondary once it hits it's optimum rev range. Physically I have no idea how that works and would love a comprehensive description and maybe a few stick drawings :). I have ideas about how that might work but can't claim anything further than ideas....

Celtoid, here's an animation on the turbo workings:

Land Rover Discovery 4 V6 Diesel Engine - YouTube

[Celtoid]

Celtoid, here's an animation on the turbo workings:

Land Rover Discovery 4 V6 Diesel Engine - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oFE90_BgpM)

What a cracking animation, thanks for that.

Cheers,

Kev.

[GregMilner]

The primary turbo is the larger one and does most of the work. The secondary is small and only assists higher up the range, with inlet and exhaust valves fitted to isolate it when not required. The 2nd turbo does not push air through the primary. The original s/w kept the 2nd turbo isolated until 2500 rpm (not 2900). This was very detectable during modest acceleration and also if upshifted soon after as the return to 1 turbo due to revs dropping below 2500 when still accelerating was not smooth. LR was working on having the 2nd turbo working just a little all the time to prevent the oil accumulation but I don't know if LR persisted with that change. LR now replace the 2nd turbo as the cure without any investigation, acting only on customer's reports. The primary is variable vane like the 2.7 and the secondary fixed like the TD5.

Graeme I just spoke to the LR dealer and they tell me they replaced the turbo on the driver's side of the vehicle, which from the youtube video seems to me to be the secondary turbo, which as you say is the one they typically replace.
Still smoking (blue) like a bastard when I hit the gas.

[Graeme]

If you can repeatedly cause it to blow smoke then surely the dealer can cause it too, which should then trigger more dealer action. There could be causes other than a faulty turbo too.

[GregMilner]

This is what I mean:

Range Rover Sport 3.0 TDV6 diesel blowing blue smoke - YouTube

[Graeme]

More than just a little puff...

Does the engine still have the oil from the service after which the smoking started? If so, I would be wanting the dealer to drain and measure its volume and tested for the correct oil. There's a significant problem of some sorts.

Does it keep smoking if revved higher?

[GregMilner]

Yes, there's certainly a problem. The car was serviced a few weeks ago, but from memory the smoke problem started just before that. No oil checks have been done since then, or as far as I know since the turbo was replaced a week or so ago.
I'll show the video the guys at the dealership and see what they say.

The crucial thing I think is that after you give it the boot and produce that big puff of smoke, if you try to reproduce that shortly after, nothing happens.

[Mungus]

HI Greg,
What is that loud click and then sliding actuator type sound just before the smoke up to when the lady says 'there you go'?

[GregMilner]

HI Greg,
What is that loud click and then sliding actuator type sound just before the smoke up to when the lady says 'there you go'?

Mmmm...nothing significant Mungus, more than likely the dog's paws sliding on the plastic mat in the cargo bay. I did tell her to brace herself for the sudden acceleration, but you know, dogs sometimes don't take any notice...:-)

[Mike_S]

This isn't much help but, I recall a couple of years ago a *very* similar video being posted on Disco3.co.uk with regards to the smoke a new D4 was kicking out. Might be worth doing a search on there or asking the question.

[GregMilner]

This isn't much help but, I recall a couple of years ago a *very* similar video being posted on Disco3.co.uk with regards to the smoke a new D4 was kicking out. Might be worth doing a search on there or asking the question.

Yes I've seen that video Mike...much the same as mine. It's back to the dealer on Thursday. They're scratching their heads. I've sent them the YouTube link to give them something to scratch over.

[Mike_S]

Yes I've seen that video Mike...much the same as mine. It's back to the dealer on Thursday. They're scratching their heads. I've sent them the YouTube link to give them something to scratch over.

:BigThumb:

Looks to be blue/white smoke from the video which suggest oil seals to me, but I'm basing that on blowing the guts out of a turbo on my old Sierra Cosworth many many moons ago, so that might not be relevant these days.

[CaverD3]

Oil in the pipes between the turbos. There have been a number of different fixes from software updates to keep the secondary turbo running to new turbos.
Known issue.

[GregMilner]

Well, this will be interesting. LR dealer emailed me last week to say that LRA was sending over another turbo, this time a 'modified' one to replace the replacement they installed a few weeks ago. The car is with the dealer now and will be for a couple of days. Wondering why they didn't send a 'modified' turbo the first time. By the sounds of it, they just replaced the secondary turbo with the same type the first time.

[Graeme]

Off topic a little, but did you notice any driveability improvements after the turbo was replaced? The 2nd turbo on my D4 now seamlessly comes online and goes offline which is in distinct contrast to its previous behaviour, perhaps now coming online well below the original 2500 rpm. The 1-way valve in the inlet tract was replaced at the same time, as was the air box because it was oil-soaked.

[GregMilner]

Can't say I did Graeme. I'll let you if there's any change when I get the car back after this second turbo change:)

[GregMilner]

Well, got the car back yesterday after its second turbo replacement. The service manager said he'd taken it for a test drive and all was fine. But when I drove it and hit it reasonably hard there was still a puff of blue smoke out the back, although nowhere near the size of the traffic-obscuring cloud previously.

Still a concern though. I would have thought there shouldn't be ANY blue smoke, but perhaps it's some residual oil being burnt out. Time will tell I suppose.

Despite the problems, still the best car ever.

[GregMilner]

Hmmmm. Update #48-ish in this long-running saga.

The car went back to the dealer today (again) for what was to be a one-day exercise to replace a couple of small parts that weren't replaced when they should have been during the last (secondary) turbo replacement.

Just had a call from the dealer service manager. Lovely chap, apologized profusely, but they're going to need the car for the rest of the week as they now have to take the whole body off to get at these parts.

This sure is turning into a Peyton Place. It's now stretched over four months. I wonder how many other LR4/RRS owners are having to go through this?

[sudo93]

Hi,

It looks like we have exactly the same issues, secondary turbo was replaced the last week but white smoke is still blowing out after hard acceleration.When went back to the dealer they said that it's going to take a couple of days for system to clear.
Any luck with solving the problem on your car?

Proud owner of RRS tdv6.:confused::confused:

[CaverD3]

Failure of drain system to crank case for turbo oil? Heard that his part can fail leaving oil pooled which gets burnt in the exhaust.

[GregMilner]

If you look at this thread, there's your answer....

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php?p=1694210#post1694210

[CaverD3]

That's the one ; scavenger pump. :angel:

Knew I had read it somewhere.

[multistrada]

Celtoid mentioned my problem last year ( I haven't been on the forum for a few months) - here was the final update on that one which was unrelated to this turbo problem:
The update. It was very overfilled with oil during the service, not detected because the oil level sensor was unservicable (or disconnected? pending replacement next week). At some stage it decided to suck up the excess through a breather hose into the inlet and the rest is history - TDV6 says "I have compression and I have oil, I'm goin' for it"!
They are cleaning out the inlet tracts (and turbos? depending on where the breather enters, but I would expect that this was on the LP side upstream of the turbo).
Now "the discussion" with LR begins re the follow on effects on the rest of the system..........
the progression:
:):o:(:angry::twisted: which I hope turns to:)

For Info it has turned to :) with no other problems (well, other than the rear diff trying to fallout....), the car is two years old this week.

But mine has been blowing smoke as per this thread since new and I thought it was normal......... "Dear Dealer, can I book my car in...."

[GregMilner]

Well, I wish the replacement scavenger pump was the end of this problem for me. But sadly, no. Got the car back on Friday and it seemed all fine with a couple of sharp acceleration tests. But yesterday (Sunday) I gave it a shove to overtake and lo, there it was again, back as fierce and large as before.

Yet another trip back to the dealer tomorrow. My car is also two years old this month. Not happy Jan.

[jonesy63]

Holy smokescreen, Batman! :D

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Good luck for dealer visit number...

[gazm3]

not sure if its relevant, but when my D3 starts to blow a bit of smoke under acceleation, I clean the MAP sensor and MAF with alcohol spray, and the smokey behaviour at full throttle dissapears almost totally. In addition your throttle response is alot better.

Perhaps with EGR system on turbo diesel cars, the intake system gets some nasty residue on it.

Ive also periodically cleaned my intake duct with the "subaru upper cylinder cleaner" spray bottle, which is same as the "seafoam" in the USA. this is also useful for removing/reducing the oily residue buildup in the intake pipe network (incl turbo and intercooler)

[GregMilner]

not sure if its relevant, but when my D3 starts to blow a bit of smoke under acceleation, I clean the MAP sensor and MAF with alcohol spray, and the smokey behaviour at full throttle dissapears almost totally. In addition your throttle response is alot better.

Perhaps with EGR system on turbo diesel cars, the intake system gets some nasty residue on it.

Ive also periodically cleaned my intake duct with the "subaru upper cylinder cleaner" spray bottle, which is same as the "seafoam" in the USA. this is also useful for removing/reducing the oily residue buildup in the intake pipe network (incl turbo and intercooler)

Mmmmm...wish I'd known that months ago. As I've explained elsewhere (must be in another thread I think) LR eventually gave up, washed their hands of the problem and simply shipped out a new engine from England. After another week at the dealer with the body off, the problem has completely disappeared - for now anyway. I now have a brand new engine in a 30,000km old car.

[Celtoid]

Mmmmm...wish I'd known that months ago. As I've explained elsewhere (must be in another thread I think) LR eventually gave up, washed their hands of the problem and simply shipped out a new engine from England. After another week at the dealer with the body off, the problem has completely disappeared - for now anyway. I now have a brand new engine in a 30,000km old car.


I know it was painful for you mate....but I think I'd prefer your outcome...LOL :D

Mines currently in getting turbo no 2 replaced. I got a fair few trouble free months after the first turbo replacement and then noticed an oil leak.... :mad:

[gazm3]

Mmmmm...wish I'd known that months ago. As I've explained elsewhere (must be in another thread I think) LR eventually gave up, washed their hands of the problem and simply shipped out a new engine from England. After another week at the dealer with the body off, the problem has completely disappeared - for now anyway. I now have a brand new engine in a 30,000km old car.

im not sure it helps in chronic cases.

I had to replace a turbo actuator in my disco3 some 12months back. Ouch $4000 thank you but the car has run seamless since and i reguarly clean the MAF and MAP senosors with isopropinol (alcholol) spray.


With the VVT turbos which kinda makes sence is the turbo is set in high rpm mode and actuates to low rpm. When the actuatior starts to wear of gum up the telltale sign is some chronic smoke at around 1700-2200 rpm along with a loss of power in this rev range. What happends is the turbo doesnt activate to the low rpm angle, therefore the ECU still thinks its working and dumps the fuel in that the engine cant use, hence the big plume of smoke. After about 2200rpm the smoke seems to go away as the turbo in high rpm mode starts to spool. If its a small plume it may just be false readings from the MAP or MAF (there is a big useful thread on MAP cleaning on here somewhere).

The only defence is to I guess use the upper cylinder lubricant I mentioned before to periodically clean the intake system. Personally Id use it every oil change, especially if you dont have an EGR delete kit.

I dont know how other models that use turbo diesel engines with VVT turbos, and EGR based systems. I suspect this is why lots of "top end" turbo diesels have big black smoke pouring out of them under acceleration.

[doddsy]

I had loads of smoke under acceleration on my d3, it was just the turbo hose had split. Replaced and all is groovy again. For now !

Worth checking before spending wads..

I ahve already blanked the egr valves and clean the MAF sensor at every oil change.

[gazm3]

Yes there is the split inter cooler hose.