Disco Series I V8:- No-start after stalling

[ausbocks]

When I stall my (manual) D1 V8 (like deliberately with clutch and brake) it will NOT re-start for 5 minutes or thereabouts. The starter spins the motor merrily and there may just be an initial kick or two. Then nothing! I suspect that fuel is not being delivered, refer the initial very brief kick, just as though there is still some residual pressure left in the system. Then, I can go for a coffee and when I get back it fires, no problem! Ordinarily, this is anyway a very, very quick starter.

I am serious, this only happens after a stall. If I switch the engine off and immediately engage the starter again, it fires up in about half a second or so. However, stop the motor while the electrics are active, then you are going to have to wait. Very embarrassing when you are halfway into an upsloping angle park.

How did I discover this? Once by driving with clumsy boots I was not used to and within days again stalling it driving with thongs, one which got caught on the carpet. This stalling trick works 100% of the time, I tried it multiple times with the Disco safely parked in my garage.

Any advice? Any relay or other power feed circuit I can test out as a sort of problem eliminating routine? I get the feeling that either the fuel pump relay is not activated or that it is not being told to activate. Then again, I am no expert! However, as noted, a time delay sorts things out.

[mike 90 RR]

I am serious, this only happens after a stall.

The difference ....

Normal Stop .....
Turn your motor electrics off and the injectors stop spitting fuel as the motor grinds to a halt

Stalled the motor ....
Your motor has ground to a halt, but the injectors are still trying to spit fuel ....


Sounds as tho your motor is slightly flooded with fuel on a stall ... (and not being helped by the "orange" spark of a LUCUS ignition system)




.... Try this next time. ....

Stall the motor
Put your foot flat out on the gas pedal
Turn key and start
Reduce loud pedal to idle position when fired

Let me know if that makes a difference



Cheers
Mike

[ausbocks]

Thanks Mike,
Will definitely try your advice, just have to complete some domestic duties!
ausbocks

[ausbocks]

Mike, I have just been to the garage to try your advice.
But..............
Instead of stalling it, I switched it off (Yes, I am getting very old!).
I IMMEDIATELY tried to restart it, as I would do in great embaraassment after having stalled it in a public environment.
It reacted exactly the same as if I had stalled it!
Foot flat on the gas pedal had no effect. So, maybe it is not the 'stalling' but the 'immediately' restart action? Now I wonder how long this problem has slumbered there and whether I have just been very lucky in not hitting it or whether it has genuinely just surfaced in the last two weeks.
Ouch!

ausbocks

[mike 90 RR]

It reacted exactly the same as if I had stalled it!
Foot flat on the gas pedal had no effect.


Can be the result of old electrics (plugs / leads / earth connections from body to battery / ect)




I find that rather than winding it over n over (= flooding the motor) ..... Give it short 1 second bursts. ....

Turn the key to ON position ... wait 3 seconds // flick the motor for 1/2 second // Turn it OFF

Repeat the cycle....




If that don't work after 2 goes .... Bung your foot down on the pedal and wind it for 3 seconds




If that don't work .... Repeat the "cycle" again




Let me know how that goes .....
BTW ... When was the last time it got a full "service" (condition of electrics)

Cheers
Mike

[ausbocks]

Hi Mike,
Thanks greatly for getting back on my problem.
Some history on this vehicle:-
Its 1996 has only about 52,000km on it, is in absolute pristine condition.
it is our holiday vehicle and is only used for that, in particular, as the tug for our caravan. It had a tappet click when hot which annoyed me, I decided to replace the hydraulic tappets (at about $8.20 each) and since a fair amount of stripping was called for, decided to replace the injectors at about $33 each. So, some 3 weeks ago it gained new tappets, injectors and, spark plugs. I was using it to 'prove' it prior to us going away in about two weeks from now.
Could I have upset something in doing this maintenance? Perhaps I did although it is a straightforward, if tedious, job.
Do you know how I could check whether for instance the fuell pressure pump is active dduring this fruitless cranking phase? I suppose I could figure that out, I do have a Haynes manual.
I have to shut up shop for now, domestic duties calling. Of course, I will try your suggestion of 'bursts of cranking' tomorrow or so. And yes, after the regulatory wait it did start OK, albeit with some 'fuel flooded engine' symptoms at kick off.
ausbocks

[mike 90 RR]

decided to replace the injectors at about $33 each. So, some 3 weeks ago it gained new tappets, injectors and, spark plugs.

Of course, I will try your suggestion of 'bursts of cranking' tomorrow or so. And yes, after the regulatory wait it did start OK, albeit with some 'fuel flooded engine' symptoms at kick off.
ausbocks

I bit of Fine tuning and testing of some of the parts should smooth this out ...

Where did you get these $33 a piece, injectors?? ... (Brand / condition / Direct match?/ New?)

Oh ... and to figure out fuel pressure ... Drivers side of the fuel rail has a schrader valve (Tyre valve) ... Push on it to release fuel (obviously common sense says, not with ignition ON)

I don't think you have a fuel pump issue .... But we will see how the car starts up tomorrow.....



Couple of simple things to check ....
Suck on the vacuum advance and make sure it works ..... That includes the end that it hooks up to in the plenum (use a pin to clear the hole)
If the advance unit is Kuput .... Don't buy a new 1..... better 1's out there in Queensland :)
Back of the plenum is the Idle control unit (stepper motor) ... A rubber 1/4" hose hooks up there to the fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rail ... make sure it is hooked up and not split ... (use a mirror n torch to view it)
The actual "Hot wire" inside the MAF needs cleaning with circuit board spray
Need to test the ECU motor temp sender unit for correct Ohm's








Some history on this vehicle:-
Its 1996 has only about 52,000km on it, is in absolute pristine condition.

:D ........ PICTURES!!!!! .......... :D

[PhilipA]

Mike, I have just been to the garage to try your advice.
But..............
Instead of stalling it, I switched it off (Yes, I am getting very old!).
I IMMEDIATELY tried to restart it, as I would do in great embaraassment after having stalled it in a public environment.
It reacted exactly the same as if I had stalled it!
Foot flat on the gas pedal had no effect. So, maybe it is not the 'stalling' but the 'immediately' restart action? Now I wonder how long this problem has slumbered there and whether I have just been very lucky in not hitting it or whether it has genuinely just surfaced in the last two weeks.
Ouch!

ausbocks

If the car was cold when you did this test you have almost certainly flooded it.
This happened to me for the first time recently when I moved my car out of the garage then turned it off , and then tried to restart.
I tried for a while but the fix was really quite obvious though not at the time.
After a few attempts at starting, I figured to clear it would need some turns with no fuel.
I removed the fuel pump relay and hit the starter until it fired. It ran for a couple of seconds on the fuel in the chambers.
Replace relay , then start as usual.
Worked for me.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

If the car was cold when you did this test you have almost certainly flooded it.
This happened to me for the first time recently when I moved my car out of the garage then turned it off , and then tried to restart.
I tried for a while but the fix was really quite obvious though not at the time.
After a few attempts at starting, I figured to clear it would need some turns with no fuel.
I removed the fuel pump relay and hit the starter until it fired. It ran for a couple of seconds on the fuel in the chambers.
Replace relay , then start as usual.
Worked for me.
Regards Philip A

Fit a dash mounted switch to the relay wires and you have both a de-flood switch and an anti-theft.:)

I had the same thing happen to me with a '94 RRC I was working on the other day, wouldn't restart straight after a cold switch-off. Took a fair few goes and a couple of minutes to clear it.

[ausbocks]

Thanks for responses; Mike, PhilipA and bee utey.
I will be giving some serious time to it this weekend, trying out the suggestions.

MIke: The Injectors are via eBay from Fiveomotorsport, Inc., at admin@fiveomotorsport.com (admin@fiveomotorsport.com) See below. Delivery was brilliant!Description


Unit price

Qty

Amount
8 NEW ERR722 Bosch Fuel Injectors 1989-98 Land Range Rover V8 4-hole Fuel Nozzle
Item Number 270833415209


$303.50 USD

1

$303.50 USD

The hydrauluc tappets cost $140 for 16 from British Four Wheel Drive in Tasmania. Equally brilliant delivery. And, one of the other items also ordered was below par but replacement was again brilliant in delivery and on an absolutely no-quibble footing. They are at help@british4wd.com (help@british4wd.com) Good to do business with.

I gather that both PhilipA and bee utey suspect some fuel flooding problems. The first time it would not restart was after a journey of just under 4km, I believe it would have been close to normal operating temperature then. The second time was after a slightly longer journey.

Request to Mike, or other; What is the 'MAF' referred to?

Again guys, thanks for the responses!

[mike 90 RR]

MIke: The Injectors are via eBay from Fiveomotorsport, Inc.,

8 NEW ERR722 Bosch Fuel Injectors 1989-98 Land Range Rover V8 4-hole Fuel Nozzle
Item Number 270833415209


Don't recognise them .....
How is the fuel economy? .... Does the car smell "Fumey" ???





....... I use these with good success :)

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices (http://www.ebay.com/itm/19LB-19-LB-BMW-FUEL-INJECTORS-E23-E28-E30-E36-E34-Z3-/320854739613?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item4ab46eca9d)





Request to Mike, or other; What is the 'MAF' referred to?


Mass Air Flow .... Air Flow Meter .....


Look at your air cleaner ... This is the next item connected to it (then a rubber hose going to the manifold)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/02/8.jpg

Take off the wire mesh circlip // Look inside it and to the Left you will see a 6mm hole ... Shine a torch in there and you will see a wire filament (like a globe wire) ... Clean that wire with "Circuit board" cleaning spray


Cheers
Mike

[PhilipA]

8 NEW ERR722 Bosch Fuel Injectors 1989-98 Land Range Rover V8 4-hole Fuel Nozzle
Item Number 270833415209


I gather these are either gen11 or gen111 Bosch injectors. I have a set of gen 11 which are Pink and a set of gen111 that are yellow.
I was told by Ward at Graeme Cooper that the pink injectors were richer than the old Lucas green band at low revs when he had the car on the dyno.
I recently fitted the yellow gen111 and I feel they are even richer at low revs as my cold starting seems richer by the way the car runs when cold.In fact the cold flood I had was the first I have ever had in 12 years.

This does not matter to me so much as I have fitted O2 sensors and the sensors control the mixture as soon as the heaters warm them. As all US RRCs have O2 sensors this will also apply to them, so the injectors do not have to have identical characteristics to the old Lucas injectors.

BUT for you, the main mixture control is the MAF, and this meters fuel expecting the Lucas injectors' characteristics, so if the injectors are "rich" compared to the original injectors then the car will run rich and be perhaps be more prone to flooding .

BTW while Fiveomotorsport SAY they are direct replacement for teh Lucas this is strictly not true. They are for other cars that have about the same total fuel demand as the RRV8 ,and it doesn't matter in the USA as the O2 sensors compensate. I bought my pink Bosch gen11 from them and was very happy with their service.

I am considering having my original pink Bosch gen11s cleaned and refitting them , as i feel they are nearer to the Lucas injectors than the yellow gen111s.
Regards Philip A

[ausbocks]

Thanks again nfor all thye replies.
My lack of interim response:- Notb lack of interest, but domestic duties intervened.
Meanwhile:.....
I decided to ckeck hoses for advance, fuel pressure; All OK.
Decided to try Mike's suggestion re short bursts of caranking, etc:- Yes, It worked, yesterday morning and in the afternoon.
Repeated the test this morning and half an hour ago; On BOTH occasions the vehicle restarted immediately! Now what? I am not complaining but somewhere is a lurking problem and I really would like to nail it. I will still get some cicuitboard cleaning fluid for the wire filiment, btw, does WD40 qualify for that? I will also put in a cut-out switch for the pump in the near future. To get at the relay itself is a half-day job in my vehicle.

Then: the injectors I got have the yellow colouring. I can't s
ay anything about fuel economy but listen to the comments re possibly playing a role in flooding.

This 'flooding', would it be on account of residual pressure left in the system or becuase the pump is still metering out although the engine is stopped? Any tjoughts?

Anybody used this site??? re "qualified mechanicsexperts on-line"
Ask Questions, Get Answers from Experts ASAP | JustAnswer (http://www.justanswer.com)
Evidently one poses a question and IF you are happy with their response, THEN you pay them US$35. Not sure about this, but, if they precisely define the problem $35 might just be worth it?

Thanks
ausbocks

[mike 90 RR]

Tshort bursts of cranking, etc:- Yes, It worked, yesterday morning and in the afternoon.
Repeated the test this morning and half an hour ago; On BOTH occasions the vehicle restarted immediately! Now what? I am not complaining but somewhere is a lurking problem and I really would like to nail it.

What is your timing set to? .... Set the timing to 9 degrees.

You can test the Ohm's of the EFI motor Temp Sender Unit (Hot and Cold)
The Haynes manual should refer to this section on "how to test".






Then: the injectors I got have the yellow colouring. I can't s
ay anything about fuel economy but listen to the comments re possibly playing a role in flooding.

This 'flooding', would it be on account of residual pressure left in the system or becuase the pump is still metering out although the engine is stopped? Any tjoughts?

Other than the link to your seller of the injectors .... Can you find a actual picture of the exact injectors you installed? .... At a guess, I would suggest that they are simply running rich at Idle ..... Hence, Test the Ohm's of the EFI sender unit when hot ... OR, That is the characteristic's of the injector you have .....



I will still get some circuit board cleaning fluid for the wire filament, btw, does WD40 qualify for that?

NO ... WD is a silicon based lubricant ..... Go to Repco and buy CRC Go Circuit board cleaner .. Use the extension tube to aim at the filament (1 second spray = cleaned)




Anybody used this site??? re "qualified mechanicsexperts on-line"
................$35 might just be worth it?


If you want to spend some $ .... Better off doing it here ....

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/payments.php


:)

Cheers
Mike