Live axle steering wobble, they say it's tyres

[newhue]

from new my Defender 130 has been wheel aligned and balanced every 10K

From new at 95 to 100klm it has had a small to medium? vibrating shudder through the steering wheel. LRA said it was with in tolerances, and still did it after they did another alignment.
So I had an alignment at my local goodyear and fix the issue.
From new I have run the tyres using the 3psi rule.

My problem is that every 10K when I rotate the backs to the front I get a nasty pulling to the left, and the shudder comes back so that's why the trip to goodyear every 10K. I don't cross axel rotation as having 6 tyres, the fronts go in the shed and the shed tyres go on the back.

Now my XZL's are about half worn, maybe a bit more, any they shudder more than ever. Not always, but on most smooth surfaces.
Goodyear say it a common problem with mud tyres that are half worn, and live axels. Furthermore they say don't be surprised if this coms back after the new set is half warn.

Has anyone experienced this?

My apparent fixes are
drive at 90klm
get new tyres and see
find out if something is a miss with my front end.

thoughts please


thanks

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Can't help I'm afraid, but I have wheel shake too and a set of half worn bfg's (made by Goodyear I believe).

Doesn't make a difference for me though if the 2 most warn are on the front or back.

Sent using Forum Runner

[newhue]

it weird, but I accept it will pull to the left due to it's caster and make. I accept the left front gets much more wear due to this, just frustrating it doesn't drive at 100 like it does at 90klm.

[Blknight.aus]

in no particular order

check the balance of the tyres
check the roundness of the tyres (feathering, scolloping)
check the wheel bearings
check the swivel pins
check the mounting of the steering box
check the panhard rod bushes.

IF its none of that

you'll probably find that its a road hammer balance issue. and thats a proper pain to sort out.

[Tank]

The only "wheel alignment" that can be done is adjust Toe in or out, there is no other adjustment, it is set. How much have they been charging you for a "wheel alignment",
camber and castor can only be "set" using off set radius bushes or slotting the bolt holes where the hub assembly bolts onto the diff.
As Dave says could be tyres out of shape, check for any bumps, take off and roll along some flat concrete and watch for egg shape motion, Regards Frank.

[Distortion]

How old is the steering damper ?

I don't see it mentioned anywhere else in the thread but a replacement of that fixed a very similar issue one mine

[Blknight.aus]

How old is the steering damper ?

I don't see it mentioned anywhere else in the thread but a replacement of that masked a very similar issue one mine

corrections in red.

[Distortion]

haha, Fair enough

I had what appeared to be an original damper which I assumed would be pretty flogged out after 200k km felt made a fair bit of difference.


That said re-reading the post it sounds like a fairly new 130 so it shouldn't be that anyway

[wagoo]

I the wheel alignment shop giving the vehicle toe in or toe out? Is trackrod dead straight?
Bill.

[Dougal]

Tie-rod ends good?

[newhue]

The only "wheel alignment" that can be done is adjust Toe in or out, there is no other adjustment, it is set. How much have they been charging you for a "wheel alignment",
camber and castor can only be "set" using off set radius bushes or slotting the bolt holes where the hub assembly bolts onto the diff.
As Dave says could be tyres out of shape, check for any bumps, take off and roll along some flat concrete and watch for egg shape motion, Regards Frank.

About $60 each time. I have fitted a RovingTracks tie rod which initially I though may have had something to do with things. It has confused the alignment guys a bit as the tie rod has a bent section in it to give better ground clearance. Toe in can be set by spinning a ball joint instead of spinning the tie rod. The ball joints are new, well 15K old. Car has only done 43K.
I had the caster corrected by a guy who has done all the armies defenders. It's a bit rough but a chain goes over the diff and a bit of pulling while the alignment gear is set up. My left wheel caster is now equal to the right according to goodyear. The car still drifts to the left with camber, but doesn't try and drive there anymore.

Yesterday it had yet another wheel balanced, and it does seem to have improved a fair bit. Goodyear showed me the alignment measurements, and though I can't recall them exactly, they were all small and equal. I think tow in was .8

I asked the guys would a new steering damper solve it, and they said not likely.
Maybe run a different set of tyres and see what transpires.

[wagoo]

Regardless of toe in or toe out, a pair of wheels on a steering axle will tend to assume a parrallel attitude when rolling ,but toe out is usually the norm on vehicles with long trackrods behind the axle, in order to place the rod in tension. Standard spindly trackrods could bow if placed in compression. aftermarket ones with a cowbelly shape for clearance may be flexible enough in both compression and tension to cause shimmy. For Australian roads I believe it is desirable to have a little more castor on the left hand wheel.
I think the alignment shop is a bit suss, chaining and bending the axle to adjust god knows what!
Bill.

[Blknight.aus]

I had the caster corrected by a guy who has done all the armies defenders.

Mate, I've got this bridge down in sydney I'd like to talk about selling to you, I'll even throw in a set of hiclones....

[Dougal]

Toe in can be set by spinning a ball joint instead of spinning the tie rod.

This results in a very coarse adjustment for toe in/out. You are limited to the thread pitch for a minimum adjustment, your actual toe change will be roughly twice the thread pitch. Possibly 3-4mm steps.

[boofdtl]

How have the wheels been balanced?
The best way to do any wheel balance is with flange plates.
What is the weights outer to inner on the rims if there is a big diff then they should spin the tyre on the rim to mate it less or at least the same..
In saying that all so see if the tyres are out of round and when you store the two tyres at home what psi are they at........

[newhue]

Mate, I've got this bridge down in sydney I'd like to talk about selling to you, I'll even throw in a set of hiclones....

yeh I know Dave, tall stories. He runs the caster correction workshops on the back road out of the base. You know of him?
I come across him because a mate had his Defender done there, and that mate's father had busses done there. Seems to have worked though.

[newhue]

This results in a very coarse adjustment for toe in/out. You are limited to the thread pitch for a minimum adjustment, your actual toe change will be roughly twice the thread pitch. Possibly 3-4mm steps.

Yes I suspected this. I have spoken to Keith from RovingTracks about the above. It was his advice about turning the ball joint. Said it moves them 1/16 which is within LR tolerances. Not sure if this is correct or just lip service, but tow in can not be 0 with the current arrangement.
As the tie rod has one position, it almost needs I recon, some threaded shank with locking nuts on each side positioned somewhere along it to allow for fine adjustment. I have been pondering if I get it modified and who would do it. Or chuck it and go back to standard.
Trouble is the wobble has always been there so it's probably not the new tie rod.

[PAT303]

Ever bumped a kerb?,you might have a bent rim. Pat

[harry]

so, has anyone checked the swivel preloads or is this not applicable to this model?
dave?

i had a look at roving tracks website picture of the tie rod, it is obvoius that it can only be set one full turn,
so you can halve that adjustment with one turn of the ball joint, so that should bring the alignment into an acceptable area..
i think you said this truck has always had the problem, so it was there before you fitted this tie rod, so that is out of the way.

crap damper from new possibly, you can come down one day and swap mine (bilsteen) onto it if you like and go for a drive.

[newhue]

How have the wheels been balanced?
The best way to do any wheel balance is with flange plates.
What is the weights outer to inner on the rims if there is a big diff then they should spin the tyre on the rim to mate it less or at least the same..
In saying that all so see if the tyres are out of round and when you store the two tyres at home what psi are they at........

According to Goodyear, each time the wheel goes on the machine it is not the same as the last. I got the impression this could happen 5 minutes apart, as I would expect it to be different after 10K km.

I just had a look and the weights are those that are slipped in between the rim and tyre bead. The outer weight is matched with an inner, but off set half way around the rim.
When I store the tyres, they come of the front, so 45psi. The tyre placard suggests they should run at 65psi, but it rides pretty hard and if the 3psi rule has any worth, 65psi is way out.

[isuzurover]

According to Goodyear, each time the wheel goes on the machine it is not the same as the last. I got the impression this could happen 5 minutes apart, as I would expect it to be different after 10K km.

...

No. The tyres shouldn't go straight out of balance unless the weights fall off or the tyre rotates on the rim. It should be gradual as the tyre wears.

Do your tyres wear evenly? Do you still have standard suspension?

I would be checking swivel preload as others have mentioned.

An option to stop it (but not cure the problem) is to use dynamic balancing. Basically you put polymer beads in the tyre instead of weight on the outside. Above about 50 km/h it should balance perfectly, so no need to continually re-balance the tyres.

[Dougal]

I would try another balancing shop. If they are getting different results remounting the same wheel, then there is a big problem they aren't spotting.

[Blknight.aus]

which I would call operator incompetence or they havent calibrated their machine for that size tyre....

ask them if you can have a bo-peep at the cal records for the balancing machine that they use, Odds are you'll get a quizzical blank stare.

[harry]

i can't believe that balancing is the problem, you seem to swap tyres around a bit,so surely some of them might be in balance.
but having said that,
we have often come home from a trip where there is major mud stuck to the inside of the rims and no real balance problems felt through the steering wheel.

i can't believe that the tyre placard would say 65 psi for a vehicle in standard trim,
dunno about this 3 psi rule, never heard of it.

i can't see why your defender should have 65 psi in the front tyres.
please look at your tyres and see what the maximum pressure is written on the sidewall of the tyre.

if you drive around with 65 psi, you will feel every bump in the road,
this may be your steering wheel problem.
you may also find that the truck is frightening to drive around corners in the wet, to the extent of being downright dangerous.

your defender cannot weigh much more or less than a similar engined disco,
mine is a 300 tdi or the other a v8,
tyre pressures are book 28 front 34 rear with the standard small tyres,
up the tyre size and the pressure goes down.

sure in a disco they are looking at a boulevard ride for the punters, but the axle weights between the defe and disco must be nearly the same.

i suggest you drop the pressures and enjoy the ride.

[newhue]

Harry I do, Front 45psi, Rear 55psi, I carry around 350kg daily.
I agree with you regarding weights, but generally 7.50 x 16 don't run at 28 or 34 for normal road use.

Dougal, I agree as well. I think my local tyre shop has run it's race. Seems an honest, but dumb thin to say in light of my problem.

Isuzurover, yes I run standard suspension, and the rears wear square and even. Put them on the front and tracks badly and shudddddders over 95klm.

I think it's time to get the swivel pre-loads and wheel bearing checked as has been mentioned.

Dave what ya doing this weekend?

[newhue]

Just checked the tyre placard again
Front 45psi, Rear 65psi. Max pressure on side wall of tyre is 75 psi.

Harry the 3 psi rule is the measure of a tyres temperature at a given pressure and weight.
If that given pressure is to low the temp is reflected buy an increase of more than 3 psi. So add a couple psi.
If the given pressure has not moved up by 3 psi your starting pressure is to high. So drop a couple psi.

I have found carrying around 350 to 500kg, 45 and 56psi work pretty well.

[PAT303]

They are very high pressures in my book,loaded I never go over 45 in the back,actually I can't remember going over 40. Pat