Need some help - sick 200Tdi

[AndyK]

Hi there,
I'm hoping some one can help me before I spend some big money!

Whilst crossing the Central Highway my 200 Tdi had been running hot (just below the red on the gauge) and when I got to Curtain Springs for the night I noticed a coolant leak from the radiator.

I have an engine saver fitted and the temp had been around the low 90's and coolant level was fine until the leak.

We got to Alice Springs and had the radiator repaired but the guy advised us that the core was buggered and I should replace it once I got to Brisbane. Well I'm in Toowoomba now at relatives place so we took the opportunity to recore the radiator so thats getting sorted now.

However on the drive from Alice to here the engine started to spray oil out of the filler cap requiring a top up every day (200/300 mls of oil). The fuel consumption has also increased although the engine power was still OK and at a steady throttle there wasn't any white/blue/black smoke from the exhaust. The engine has been working hard (we are fully loaded for our trip now in its 4th month) and has been running hotter than normal for a while now. There is no water in the oil (no white sludge in filler cap) or oil in the coolant.

The oil seals in the turbo also appear to be buggered with a fair amount of oil in the intercooler and hoses, enough to drip down onto the paper air filter. I have a Provent fitted so no oil has been getting from the breather into the intake.

So where does the problem lie? Cylinder head gasket or something simple?

Andy, Rosy and Abby

[87County]

Well AndyK, no one else has had a go at replying to this so here's a start....

... from your description it doesn't sound too good,

... as you have already identified - the turbo needs replacement

... and the crankcase pressurisation is a worry

... blow-by IME probably means an engine rebuild (which isn't the end of the world and usually works out well)

... but why not fix the turbo & cooling system since you have to anyway and see what happens then ??


maybe someone else will contribute something helpful - good luck !

[isuzurover]

Check the provent element isn't blocked. If you can, try giving it a clean (see the good oil for how).

However it sounds as if the engine is just getting tired.

[slug_burner]

km on the engine?

[Blknight.aus]

old engine, excessive blow by and a worn turbo...

time for an overhaul.

realistically bout $2k parts and labour on a palleted engine.

[justinc]

Andy,

These 200Tdis are pretty robust. I would pull the head and check for evidence of pressure leaking into the crankcase via the pushrod galleries, and take a good look at the bores.

Turbo seals can be a little more catastrophic than that, so can a head gasket failure, so I am not 100% on either of these, as Dave and Ben say it could be just getting on a bit and needing a re ring.

Using new pistons and rings with a hone will be fine if the bores measure up within specs, IIRC LR standard new pistons are manufactured slightly oversize:D

I re rung a 300Tdi once using this method and worked a treat, all done in situ. unfortuhately the 200 Tdi isn'r as simple and requires removal from the evhicle due to the crank brace having to be removed to access conrods etc, this requires the removal of the bellhousing adapter etc first:(

Also, if the engine has had a substantial overheat, sometimes the pistons will shrink when cooling and the rings can even lose temper so these can cause blowby etc alone.

JC

Even so, The 200 is a good engine:)

[AndyK]

Hi there,

thanks for the replies so far..

The engine has just passed 87,000 miles

I'll try giving the Provent element a clean as it is soaked in oil. When I ran the engine yesterday after refitting the recored radiator there didn't seem to be excessive fumes being blown out of the oil filler when I removed the cap and revved the engine.

Andy

[Blknight.aus]

gotta load it up, the rings will be letting blow by past under load.

[Jojo]

87k is not too much for the 200Tdi. From your description it did not overheat, although it was on its way to. As for the blow-by, did you check the compression? My bet is on a blocked breather.

[uninformed]

what temp gauge was near the red? was it the standard LR engine temp gauge?

How do you know it was low 90's?

[AndyK]

Hi there,
the standard LR gauge was just below the red, I've also fitted an Engine Saver with the temp sensor bolted to the back of the engine block. This read in the low to mid ninetys.

I cleaned the Provent element today so we'll see how it goes tomorrow. I'll give Bluey a good run out.

The turbo definitely needs seeing to so I'm going to see a mechanic in Toowoomba.

Andy

[justinc]

Andy,

Don't rush off to the turbo place yet, I would suggest the amount of oil in the intake pipework sounds pretty normal for all 200Tdi defenders I have seen. All have a fair bit especially in the airfilter, it is a low point where the oil 'mist' will settle into. 200Tdi Discos don't seem to be as obvious IME. I have had them dripping oil out of the breather pipe when I disconnect it and hang it down, and even LR suggest to flush and clean intercoolers out due to oil circulation etc. I would say it may well be a byproduct of the crankcase pressure issue rather than a turbo seal issue.

When these have turbo seal issues they get smokey (Blue oily smoke) and worst case will run on their oil:o

JC

[AndyK]

Hi there,
well I went for a run down and up the range (long , steep hill!!)from Toowoomba to test out the renewed cooling system and it passed with flying colours. The LR temp gauge didn't move from its normal position, the engine saver saw an increase in temp to the mid ninetys but this quickly came back down after getting back on the flat so I'm happy with the new radiator.
There wasn't any oil spray from the filler either although I'm not convinced yet, perhaps cleaning the Provent filter did the trick.

Anyway the radiator guy had recommended a turbo expert to go and see so after that good news I went off to get the bad - or so I thought. He spent almost 45 mins looking over my motor and giving advice. In short the turbo is OK and the breather system is at fault. When he looked at (and in)the Provent he reckons it was plumbed in wrong with the engine breather connected to the top and the pipe to the air filter connected to the bottom of the unit so I've swapped them round and will see what happens.

I've still got the intercooler to clean but I guess its good news all round hopefully.

Andy

[isuzurover]

...

In short the turbo is OK and the breather system is at fault. When he looked at (and in)the Provent he reckons it was plumbed in wrong with the engine breather connected to the top and the pipe to the air filter connected to the bottom of the unit so I've swapped them round and will see what happens.

...


Did he miss the big arrows on the unit?

It is designed for the inlet (from the engine) to be at the top and the outlet to the intake to be the lower connection. Plumbed the way you have it the relief valve in the cap and the overpressure valve in the oulet won't be working.

The way it is now could also cause issues as the crankcase pressure and the drain pressure will be the same, so you may get blowby gases bubbling up the drain line - but that depends if your drain is above or below the oil level.

Dougal had some issues with his - likely because his was mounted quite low) and changed the plumbing, but also changed the vales IRC.

[AndyK]

Hi there,

Well thanks for all of the advice, all seems well now thankfully.

The problems were all from a poorly radiator, the re-cored radiator now keeps the coolant at a lower temp even when the engine is working hard, the LR temp gauge doesn't go any higher than half way now. The engine block temp still rises as you'd expect when working hard but the new radiator can cope quickly cooling it back down.

The oil spray from the filler cap was due to a blocked filter element in the ProVent, the pressure relief valves didn't seem to do anything.

Here's my thoughts on the plumbing of the ProVent.

Firstly I've looked on the M&H website so I know the way I've plumbed it in now is not to their instructions but:-

the ProVent is primarily an air filter not an oil filter. With oily air going in the top, the oil mist filtered out has to pass through the filter element then drip down into the bottom of the unit. Therefore oil and air have to pass through the filter media. Also as air is sucked out through the bottom these drips could be sucked into the turbo inlet. The way I have plumbed it only air has to pass through.

if you look at the filter element itself the filter media support (metal mesh) is on the inside, so the inside of the filter element should be at a lower pressure than the outside causing the media to be "pushed" against the support (as I have plumbed it in) and not blown away from it (as per instructions.)

if oil mist goes in the top, there is a smaller surface area of ProVent and filter media available for the oil to separate than if it were to go in the bottom.

if oil mist enters through the bottom, oil which deposits on the Provent side and filter element can drop into the drain without having to migrate through the filter media which in turn leads to blockage.

the way I have it plumbed the ProVent in there is an oily side (the bottom of the unit) and a clean side (the top of the unit) from which air is drawn into the turbo. Plumbed in as per instructions, oil has to drain through the oil cleaned air!

After a four hour drive which included fast highway driving, hilly city work and a couple of minutes of full throttle climb up a steep hill, I had no oil spray. When I checked the ProVent filter element there were a few droplets of oil that stood proud on the surface and not in the filter media.

I realize that this is still early days but I'm happy with the way I've plumbed the ProVent in.

So there you have it, comments? (please be gentle!!)

Andy

[slug_burner]

Hi there,

Well thanks for all of the advice, all seems well now thankfully.

The problems were all from a poorly radiator, the re-cored radiator now keeps the coolant at a lower temp even when the engine is working hard, the LR temp gauge doesn't go any higher than half way now. The engine block temp still rises as you'd expect when working hard but the new radiator can cope quickly cooling it back down.

The oil spray from the filler cap was due to a blocked filter element in the ProVent, the pressure relief valves didn't seem to do anything.

Here's my thoughts on the plumbing of the ProVent.

Firstly I've looked on the M&H website so I know the way I've plumbed it in now is not to their instructions but:-

the ProVent is primarily an air filter not an oil filter. With oily air going in the top, the oil mist filtered out has to pass through the filter element then drip down into the bottom of the unit. Therefore oil and air have to pass through the filter media. Also as air is sucked out through the bottom these drips could be sucked into the turbo inlet. The way I have plumbed it only air has to pass through.

if you look at the filter element itself the filter media support (metal mesh) is on the inside, so the inside of the filter element should be at a lower pressure than the outside causing the media to be "pushed" against the support (as I have plumbed it in) and not blown away from it (as per instructions.)

if oil mist goes in the top, there is a smaller surface area of ProVent and filter media available for the oil to separate than if it were to go in the bottom.

if oil mist enters through the bottom, oil which deposits on the Provent side and filter element can drop into the drain without having to migrate through the filter media which in turn leads to blockage.

the way I have it plumbed the ProVent in there is an oily side (the bottom of the unit) and a clean side (the top of the unit) from which air is drawn into the turbo. Plumbed in as per instructions, oil has to drain through the oil cleaned air!

After a four hour drive which included fast highway driving, hilly city work and a couple of minutes of full throttle climb up a steep hill, I had no oil spray. When I checked the ProVent filter element there were a few droplets of oil that stood proud on the surface and not in the filter media.

I realize that this is still early days but I'm happy with the way I've plumbed the ProVent in.

So there you have it, comments? (please be gentle!!)

Andy

You will have to take it up with M&H, but I doubt they got it wrong.