ARGH rounded bolt - 300tdi PAS pump pulley

[tomalophicon]

Well I've been trying for ages to remove the pulley from the power steering pulley on a 300tdi Disco.
I got 2 different kinds of strap wrench, neither of which worked. Tried to go in by taking the alternator off, just now attempted by taking the viscous hub off and using a long bar to break them.

I think I've started to round the heads on one of the 3 bolts so I packed up before I did any more damage.

Does anyone have any ideas about how to get this bastard off?

[langy]

Normally, the bolts for the PSteer pulley come off with just the tension of the belt - but you've past that point.
Find one of these:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/297.jpg

I found mine at super c wrap some years ago - whether or not they carry them now is unknown.

Generally the fan goes off first so you have room to move.

Then, use a six point ( impact type) socket. LR hardware is notorious for rounding using 12 point or even metrinch sockets. ( Especially the bellhousing nuts). You may have to give the ratchet a tap with a hammer to break the hold, but it should work.

If you do destroy the bolts getting them off - no big deal, they're only M8 x25mm (and some washers)

When you refit them they don't have to be super tight - and some anti seize might help in the future.

[justinc]

Put the belt back on, and you'll have to use a small cold chisel now they are rounded off. They aren't very hard IME and round easily. I use a ground down 10mm single hex 1/2" drive impact socket and one of these http://www.pbtusa.com/pdfs/70865I.pdf
too. 1 hit not 25 hits:(
When replacing the bolts watch the length carefully, as there isn't much room behind the flange for longer bolts.
JC

[tomalophicon]

Normally, the bolts for the PSteer pulley come off with just the tension of the belt - but you've past that point.
Find one of these:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/297.jpg

I found mine at super c wrap some years ago - whether or not they carry them now is unknown. Be careful that the chain sits in the grooves of the pulley during use - don't want to damage it unnecessarily.

Generally the fan goes off first so you have room to move.

Then, use a six point ( impact type) socket. LR hardware is notorious for rounding using 12 point or even metrinch sockets. ( Especially the bellhousing nuts). You may have to give the ratchet a tap with a hammer to break the hold, but it should work.

If you do destroy the bolts getting them off - no big deal, they're only M8 x25mm (and some washers)

When you refit them they don't have to be super tight - and some anti seize might help in the future.

Langy, thanks for that.
I've noted though that my PS pulley isn't grooved, as the smooth side of the belt goes over it. Does that differ from the norm?

I have a set of IRWIN bolt grip removers that will do the job but will destroy the bolts.

[justinc]

Langy, thanks for that.
I've noted though that my PS pulley isn't grooved, as the smooth side of the belt goes over it. Does that differ from the norm?

I have a set of IRWIN bolt grip removers that will do the job but will destroy the bolts.

I think Langy was meaning the water pump pulley, which is grooved AND can cause the same issue with difficult bolt removals:mad:

JC

[langy]

Oops -

[tomalophicon]

Put the belt back on, and you'll have to use a small cold chisel now they are rounded off. They aren't very hard IME and round easily. I use a ground down 10mm single hex 1/2" drive impact socket and one of these http://www.pbtusa.com/pdfs/70865I.pdf
too. 1 hit not 25 hits:(
When replacing the bolts watch the length carefully, as there isn't much room behind the flange for longer bolts.
JC

That tool is great. I'll get me one of those.

[justinc]

That tool is great. I'll get me one of those.

agreed. I initially bought it to remove and tighten tdi crank bolts, which we do quite a bit, but it gets lots of other tasks too :)

worth its weight it has saved me many times, especially with honda engines that rotate anticlockwise and have a rh thread crank bolt so you can't undo them using the starter...

JC

[tomalophicon]

agreed. I initially bought it to remove and tighten tdi crank bolts, which we do quite a bit, but it gets lots of other tasks too :)

worth its weight it has saved me many times, especially with honda engines that rotate anticlockwise and have a rh thread crank bolt so you can't undo them using the starter...

JC

I'll order one tomorrow. Thanks for the advice.

Honda engines: I shudder at the thought.

Tom.

[justinc]

I'll order one tomorrow. Thanks for the advice.

Honda engines: I shudder at the thought.

Tom.

Yes not everyones cup of brew but seriously some of the best quality and high performing engines in factory guise to come out of japan.

makes them a pleasure to work on.

JC

[tomalophicon]

Normally, the bolts for the PSteer pulley come off with just the tension of the belt - but you've past that point.
Find one of these:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/03/297.jpg

I found mine at super c wrap some years ago - whether or not they carry them now is unknown.

Generally the fan goes off first so you have room to move.

Then, use a six point ( impact type) socket. LR hardware is notorious for rounding using 12 point or even metrinch sockets. ( Especially the bellhousing nuts). You may have to give the ratchet a tap with a hammer to break the hold, but it should work.

If you do destroy the bolts getting them off - no big deal, they're only M8 x25mm (and some washers)

When you refit them they don't have to be super tight - and some anti seize might help in the future.

Langy, I just re-read the part in the Haynes manual about the PAS pump and it suggests using loctite. Should I avoid this then?

[chazza]

So does that you-beaut tool work on the Rover V8 crankshaft, Justin?

Cheers Charlie

[tomalophicon]

Right. I've got some better bolts to put through so I'll see if I can get 'em off again tonight with the Irwin bolt removers.

I could only get bolts with 13mm heads. Is this likely to upset the balance of the pulley?

[tomalophicon]

I got one out but found out my 8x25s are too long. Maybe more like 8x15.

[langy]

For Mr T: As you can see, occasionally (my) the responses you get from the forum can be a little off target. As to how you go about replacing the bolts on the PS pump pulley is a matter for yourself - I have my views as I have R & R'd the pulley a few times for different reasons and find that the bolts usually behave themselves. The nominated torque is only 10Nm (8 ft/lbs). The use of Loctite is up to you - but the WSM indicates #242, which is mid strength. I was in the habit of checking various nuts and bolts on regular occasions, and the pulley bolts never gave me a problem. As to anti-seize, again is a matter for yourself and how much mud & water you plan on going through. If not on those bolts, then definitely use it on the fan hub thread.

[tomalophicon]

For Mr T: As you can see, occasionally (my) the responses you get from the forum can be a little off target. As to how you go about replacing the bolts on the PS pump pulley is a matter for yourself - I have my views as I have R & R'd the pulley a few times for different reasons and find that the bolts usually behave themselves. The nominated torque is only 10Nm (8 ft/lbs). The use of Loctite is up to you - but the WSM indicates #242, which is mid strength. I was in the habit of checking various nuts and bolts on regular occasions, and the pulley bolts never gave me a problem. As to anti-seize, again is a matter for yourself and how much mud & water you plan on going through. If not on those bolts, then definitely use it on the fan hub thread.

Thanks Langy, I will go with the length that I pull out. The 8x25 did screw in all the way but won't do if they're suitable until I pull the pump out.
I will most definitely take your advice and anti-seize them but I'm not sure about loctite (can you use the 2 solutions on the same bolt?).

I will also use anti-seize on the fan, though I had no problem as I was able to jam a long screw driver in there to get it off.

Tom.

[justinc]

So does that you-beaut tool work on the Rover V8 crankshaft, Justin?

Cheers Charlie

Ohh Yeahhh:twisted:

I use a 24mm deep reach impact socket on it. Don't forget USE A REALLY BIG HAMMER, AS BIG AS YOU CAN SWING. Hit it hard, hit it once:cool:

JC

[Jock The Rock]

I had a tight one of these once

If you get someone to give you a hand, put a 15mm spanner on the belt tensioner and pull it so it tightens the belt

Then in your case, I'd try using a 6 sided socket unless it is too badly rounded

I used a 3 foot breaker bar and yanked on it (as in speed not power) this seems to help in cracking it off

[tomalophicon]

Thanks Jock, I hadn't thought of tightening the belt.
I'll try again tomorrow. This is my only vehicle so I could do it today without having the right bolts on hand.
Tom.

[tomalophicon]

OK this is starting to **** me off. One of the bolt heads is well damaged now and it looks like I'll have to remove the radiator and/or intercooler and/or air con condenser to get enough room to hammer on a socket.

I'm trying one last thing:
I had some steel-epoxy laying round the shed so glued a 13mm high tensile nut to the top of the damaged bolt. If the glue does what it says it does and holds the force of a long handle I might be able to get by with that. I'll see.

What would a mechanic do in this situation?

[bee utey]

If I met a rounded off bolt like that I wouldn't hesitate to attack it with a small angle grinder, dremel, or 90 degree drill. Usually when the head is off the bolt shank will turn out easily as it's not actually seized. With a grinder you can also cut new flats, either 3/8" (9.5mm) or 8mm and fit the appropriate 6 point socket.

[tomalophicon]

Thanks Bee utey. How would you turn the shank out without a head?

[Jock The Rock]

If it were me I'm not sure I'd to keen on hammering a socket on as it may damage the internals of the pump

As bee utey said your best bet may be cutting the head off the bolt, gripping the shank with a good quality set of Vise Grips and winding it out. Emphasis on the good quality

Obviously once you've cut the head off, you'll be able to remove the pulley and therefore be left with a small amount of shank to grip

[tomalophicon]

thanks, that's good advice. I'll be doing that if this next bit of madness doesn't work.
The pump is fooked anyway. It can die a horrible death as far as I'm concerned :D

[tomalophicon]

Of course. The pulley holes won't be threaded :nazilock:

[Jock The Rock]

Never mind mate us mechanics somtimes have those moments too

[Landy110]

It is probably a bit late now but I have two words for you.
GRINDING PASTE
It used to be marketed as "screw grab" and is brilliant for putting on the end of a screw driver either flat or philips and then jiggle back and forth in the screw head and the crystals in the fluid grab and hold like no bodys busness!

Also works with nuts and bolts!

I am not sure which grade it is but i think medium from memory, I have never used grinding paste per say.

For those unfamiliar with grinding paste it is used to seat valves into the head and is a thick dark grey fluid filled with grinding crystals and comes in variuos grades.

Steve

[tomalophicon]

Thanks Steve that's a good bit of advice.

Thanks to everyone who contributed here, I was able to cut the bolts off with a dremel. I was then able to undo the threads by hand :eek:

What's the trick with the high pressure line? do I use 2 spanners on it?

[langy]

Usually, for the HP PS line, this is where you would use a flare nut spanner on the smaller nut - the bigger nut does not move ( You can use two spanners to offset the torque of undoing the flare nut) . If you don't have flare nut spanners, take care with open end spanners. I've had more sucess with a shifting spanner done up tight. And avoid vice grips.

[tomalophicon]

Thanks Langy, got it in the end with a regular 5/8" spanner (it was very tight). Gotta get me a set of flare nut spanners.

One more:
Can I bleed the system on my own?

[langy]

Get some small clear plastic hose for the bleed nipple - it's similar to a brake caliper bleed nipple. RAVE says you can bleed it only at idle, however use the hose because it's messy (Real messy if you blip the throttle) . I'd also suggest pulling the power from the injector pump fuel cut off and first filling it then turning it over a few times before starting. As always keep the reservoir topped up. Once fluid comes out the bleed nipple, secure it and then go lock to lock a few times until it settles down - noise and power wise.

[bee utey]

If you don't want to crank/run the engine wrap string around the pulley, apply hand power, before you refit the belt.

[tomalophicon]

Thanks Bee utey all done, I'll just check the bolts again this afternoon.
I had to cut about 5mil off each pulley bolt as they were too long and were binding up on the pump. Maybe the right size is M8x12 as these were M8x16.
Bloody missed out on bleading the system before work so had to walk. I will have to do it in my lunch break because I'm getting some tyres fitted this afternoon.

Next Job: recovery points.

Thanks everyone you've all been a great help.