The leaning tower of landy

[ososlo]

My wife isn't that heavy so why does my D3 2.7 Se settle down on its bags on the passenger side overnight?

I have had the agent put his computer on it and no faults registered although I do get the slow air rising message occasionally.

I have put her away tonight in off road height to see if she sinks..but she will sink in access mode or normal.

I must admit she does not get used often as I prefer to knock around in my 300tdi Disco..

Thanks
Graeme

[gghaggis]

Sounds like an air leak? Try disconnecting the battery overnight to remove any other possibility (faulty electronics etc) and see which bags are lowered in the morning.

Cheers,

Gordon

[ososlo]

Thanks Gordon,

I have done as you suggested and I put the car up to off road height and measured the centre of the rims the the edge of the mudguards and then disconnected the battery.

She sank 20cm on the left hand front and rear wheels.

The problem I now have is that I bought the D3 from a Toyota dealership which also provided a 3 year extended warranty...you can see where this is going!!!!

The local Toyota dealership want/are required to do the work but I am of course nervous as hell about letting them loose on her.

I am in a small town 3 hours from the nearest Landy garage and do know the head mechanic.. I have talked to him and told him I don't want an apprentice let loose on her and have offered to be there when they work on her , but of course i am a health and safety issue!

They intend to spray soapy water along the system looking for leaks and of course if they find something they will have to order in parts...

I assume it is not electrical, as in sensors, so it shouldn't need calibration ...what do you guys think would be the most likely cause?

I am going to have to talk my way into the workshop so I can show them how to put her into extended mode by tricking it so they can see things better...I'm surprised they found out how to take the hand brake off when i took it in to show them yesterday!

Any hints?

Thanks
Graeme

[400HPONGAS]

20 CM ? 200MM ?8 inches? ,then it must be on the stops or bloody close to them !
Well at least the cross-link/axle Valves arent bypassing !!!So it does this with all the fuses in as well ? Cant see how it can drop this much without bringing the other side down as well on self levelling .You might have "soft rods" that grow and shrink based on Ambient Temp !! (complete rubbish I know ) Definately let us know what you find !!!

[ososlo]

Duh...I mean 20mm!

[400HPONGAS]

Well thank you very much !!!!!!!!
20mm NOT 20CM !!!!! Now that changes the game alltogether . For 20mm ,you really dont have much of problem , standard recalibrate should do it !!!
And make sure you find some of that elusive "Flat Ground"

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Do you really need all these
!!!
?:mad:

[400HPONGAS]

Sorry Pedro ,whats is the allowable amount of Exclamation Marks ?

[ososlo]

Ha thanks for your exclamation...oops explanation..

I will try that at the Landy agent...I will be up that way next week..I have only heard the compressor going once so I guess that is normal...I just didn't want the compressor going flat out trying to keep up with a leak.

We are bringing the D3 back to Oz this winter and are going to do the big lap so obviously want everything sorted beforehand.

Thanks

ps I will wipe soapy water around tomorrow anyway...we have a tropical cyclone remnant here at the moment and I won't be going outside..a good day to play with the truck

[400HPONGAS]

ososlo, when you have a close look at the air suspension functional diagramatic.its extremely hard to see how its possible to get exactly the same size leak over the same period for both Front and rear axle sets. I can understand how 1 end might have a minor leak ,and then the ECU attempts to level it .The Probability of both ends having the same leak at the same place at the same time ,nah , 1000 x 1000 x 1000 to 1 .

[Mungus]

I don't actually own a LR yet, but having read a lot of threads and as 400HPONGAS has stated re: elusive flat ground, are you positive the ground you are on (i'm presuming a carport with concrete floor) is dead level and doesn't have a fall one way that would result in normal self level?

[unseenone]

They really lean to the left or right occasionally!!! Although maybe not in this case. When a height calibration is attempted, error codes are thrown!!

The resolution!!!! Identify and replace defective height sensor! :wasntme:

[ososlo]

Hi

Obviously she used to sit straight and true and yes it is parked in the garage on a flat concrete floor.

My measurements are close enough to show that both the front left and rear left sank overnight at the same rate.

The front right sank by maybe 5mm but it is very minor and the rear right stayed at the same height.

The truck does not get a lot of use as I use my D1 as my daily runner so i am sure I haven't been offroad and damaged anything.

Could there be a leak at a valve block that supplies the left hand side?

It would seem logical that if an airbag had a leak it would affect only one corner but is definitely dropping on one side i.e front and rear.

It would also seem logical that it isn't computer related as she sank with the battery disconnected.

A local garage has put it on their analyser (not a landy agent) and he can't read the left rear sensor...is there a clue there?

Graeme

[unseenone]

That could be a clue. I would be suspicious if he can read all the other ones. You might also carefully check / feel / inspect the air lines for chafe or wear. Start on the front one. Particularly where the airline is nearest the heat shields. Under the hood, there are some lines, on the Left hand drive, there is a potential chafe point where the airlines pass into the box, through a rubber grommet. There is also some kind of air connection box there.

Perhaps some soapy water and maximum air pressure (off road height) might also turn something up.

The lines near the spare battery box are shown in the attached thumbnail and shameless Traxide plug. I would not stress this as a likely place, merely a place to look at. You will see the lines on the left, and behind the battery.

The other area to pay attention to are the Valve blocks.

The attached diagram may help out of the service manual.

[Graeme]

There is a front valve block and a rear valve block, not 1 for each side. The airspring valves are closed unless the system is raising or lowering so air can't flow along 1 side of the vehicle without there being 2 faulty valve blocks. I suspect there are 2 leaks but perhaps only 1 at the front. The front valve block is on the RHS in line with the wheel and the rear is behind the left rear wheel.

[ososlo]

I'm heading over to Tauranga to see if they can sort my suspension out on Tuesday but I notice that after one night the truck drooped to the left by the usual amount of 20mm but after leaving it the whole truck had settled evenly over all four wheels with approx 400mm between the wheel centre and the wheel arch.

It was left in offroad height so the whole system settled over the two nights..

Any clue there?...does your D3 settle when left for a few days?

Thanks

Graeme

[Graeme]

The vehicle will periodically re-level downwards so if 1 corner is loosing pressure then the whole vehicle should progressively go down, at least to some extent.

[unseenone]

The last time I had it sit long enough (in a cold environment) it was about 2 weeks to the bump stops. I was a bit alarmed when I saw it, but fired it up and it pumped up, and there has been no problems.

SOME settle is normal. I am sure you prefer to fix it rather than throw parts at it. I normally carry spare height sensors and so on in the spares kit. If you considered such a kit, then some easy swapping out might get your kit started and your problem resolved.

Write up and pictures here: DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Upcoming project (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic76762-15.html)

[ososlo]

Thanks unseen one!!...I have found a copy of the workshop manual and read that after 2 hours the car will assess whether it is balanced and again after 6 hours so that is why it will settle if one particular corner is lower than the others..

What a great spare parts list but I see in the manual you have to recalibrate the suspension after changing a sensor..have you tried changing one to see what happens?

When we came over last winter I just had the obligatory light bulbs as well as filters and belts.

I will look at your kit and decide what I should source b4 we come back later this year.

[unseenone]

I believe in a pinch, you could just swap it. I have not yet played with recalibration and adjustments, I am about to monkey around with it after completing some suspension work.

Of course, you need some sort of can bus computer to do the recalibration. I generally would leave the 4 wheel alignment (which includes height calibration) to the dealer.

Before rushing off to the dealer for an alignment, it's probably good to put some miles on new bushings and other parts, and allow things to settle if possible. On the alignment aspects, it is important to point out to get that done with a normal load, which means, whatever you normally carry, full fuel tank(s), tents, and so on.

[gavinwibrow]

May sound crazy, but if you can't find anything else, try parking it the other way around ie reverse in if you normally drive in, and see what it then does. I did this with my air suspension bus to eradicate one set of possible issues/questions

[ososlo]

My truck is sitting level this morning after I took it over to Tauranga and the Toyota dealer sent it over to the Landrover agent for repairs.

The mechanic traced the reason for it settling unevenly to dust from the silicone beads in the compressor dryer moving through the system and jamming the valves in the front and rear valve blocks.

He proved it by undoing the pipes from the compressor and put them in a glass of water, where he could see a steady stream of bubbles as the air came back from the airsprings through the semi open valves to the compressor.

He cleaned the valve blocks and replaced the dryer unit so hopefully we are now ready to return to Oz ...looking increasing likely towards the end of May..

yayhttp://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Graeme]

That's a keen mechanic! Normally the valve blocks would just be replaced.

[ososlo]

Yes..it's nice to find a mechanic who is also a landy enthusiast..Mike at Ebbetts in Tauranga is one of those mechanics who knows his stuff and went right to the cause from experience.

He also noted how much easier it was to get to the front block with my OL roo bar in front compared to the original bumper.

[400HPONGAS]

Sacred Blue ! who is this masked man the actually logically troubleshoots a problem ,a very rare resource indeed . Its usually change parts to something works.
A simple bypass test indeed ! just put the return line ,at the exhaust valve into a glass of water ,any bubbles equalls bypass . Personally seen heaps of that white powder that used to be the drying beads right through the drier .
Now ,the real issue is what did he do to stop it from Happening again ?
Ive personally stripped 5 different compressors and every one of them showed this problem , and every one of them had perfectly performing compressor sections in them , in that the Piston,rings,bore,and crank were all Okay and they all pumped up perfectlly well ONCE all Silica was removed from the DRIER system. Reassembled and fitted without any silica gel ,just cut a spacer and leave in the top and bottom Felt filters (once they have been cleaned and dried )
So now its a tradeoff between keeping the system DRY and keeping it Working .

[Graeme]

Reassembled and fitted without any silica gel
Did you try any just with less dessicant? My original D4 dryer was overfull but the compressor had worn out by the time I removed some dessicant so it still didn't pump well enough. I've removed some dessicant from the replacement compressor's dryer to try to make the compressor last longer.

[400HPONGAS]

Lets say its the breakdown of the silica gel into a powder form , from probably vibrationand the loading from the spring tensioning . Never found the spring to be overly crushing in the dryer chamber , its probably road vibration, and running vibration that cause the Gel Beads to breakdown t)
Graeme , you nay you had a faulty compressor (And who hasnt !!)What was the Fault with the compressor ?Worn out ? what was worn out ?
Did you pull the Compressor apart , take the head and Barrel off an,Reed Valve to find the Fault . as both the Thermistor in the motor and the Temp switch will also play up but thats more of a fault of the main driving relay

In dont think less dessicant will make much difference as its the breaking down to a powder form that is the Problem,Having less in a bigger air gap may make it "powderize" quicker

[Graeme]

My original compressor ended-up not producing any pressure at all. I didn't pull it apart as it was being replaced under warranty. It was impossible to blow through the dryer whereas I could get some through the new dryer, but a lot more with a small amount of dessicant removed yet still under tension of the spring, just not as hard packed.

[400HPONGAS]

Still,dont jump to any conclusions , Out of all compressors I have messed with ,none had a actual compressor Fault ,yet all were highly restricted on the output side due to the Silica gel dust problem ,Im messing with the motor thermistor and compressor bi-mettalic switches to see what actual heat range sets them off.
Graeme, with the proliferation of Tyre monitoring pressure systems , wouldnt it be possible to say, Tee,into each air bag and record the actual pressures,then with suitable Transducers display the results ?

[bbyer]

Graeme, with the proliferation of Tyre monitoring pressure systems , wouldn't it be possible to say, Tee,into each air bag and record the actual pressures,then with suitable Transducers display the results ?

That is quite the idea. A tee and Schrader valve into each air line between the air spring and the block valve, plus maybe a couple of other places and then one of those "Valve Cap" tyre monitoring after market systems - now that would be interesting. One would have full time live monitoring of the air system assuming the "valve caps" to not need to feel wheel rotation in order to send signals.

[Graeme]

Why?

[400HPONGAS]

Why ? yeah ! good question .Probably 101 other things to waste time and money on !

[bbyer]

Land Rover does not think one needs to know voltage or amps or really anything about the electrical system except maybe what a red light indicates. The same can be said for oil pressure and air. Fuel is all that seems to matter.

I was able to solve my volts readout concerns with a ScanGauge and got engine coolant temp along with it. The LR supplied round gauge, well it does not quite indicate to the "precision" I had in mind. While it seems not really possible with the LR water temp gauge, in other vehicles, I have seen thermostat failures developing over time just by watching the needle or a digital readout fluctuate.

The same would be nice with the air system. Yes, I would agree that probably from a marketing sense, an air gauge might not be wise as it would suggest Kenworth. For me however, it would be nice to have at least a digital readout available thru one of the information windows.

Alas, LR does not agree and I suppose that repair of the system in the unlikely event that all is not perfect can always be handled by the nearby local friendly LR dealer.

Yes, even with gauges, the dealer still gets his money, but most often, I have avoided walking.

I just do not regard the air system as plug and play or set and forget, but yes, that is how LR apparently likes to see it along with a number of other systems.

I guess what bothers me most is that LR has sensors all over the place for pressure and temperature of the engine, air compressor, E diff, tranny, battery and alternator, yet they keep it secret from the driver.

GM at least on their pickups, displays engine oil pressure, volts, and if a diesel, transmission oil temperature, and then via the digital windows, engine hours and a host of other parameters.

In summary, I have found that gauges if watched over time, sometimes can foretell failure or even help to resolve problems if you are lucky.

[Graeme]

The pressure gauges on trucks are used to indicate the load, either directly through a calibrated gauge or indirectly to allow a conversion from pressure to weight. Pressure in the air springs will be different depending on how much load on each corner - front to rear and left to right. I can't see any point in knowing.

[bbyer]

One of the nice aspects of the air system, is that regardless of load, the vehicle is always level.

This applies regardless of where the load is, internal or external, say for instance, a trailer tongue loading.

With conventional springs, all one has to do is bend down and look at the distance between the axle and the spring shackle stops. With air suspension it is not so easy.

I kind of think that with increased load at the rear, air pressure would increase in the rear air springs and hence one would have an indication of tongue weight. That might be of value.

[Graeme]

I kind of think that with increased load at the rear, air pressure would increase in the rear air springs and hence one would have an indication of tongue weight. That might be of value.Yes, but only if pressures have been calibrated to weight.

[gghaggis]

Yes, but only if pressures have been calibrated to weight.

And that will vary with temperature, humidity and altitude, so difficult to maintain true calibration

Cheers,

Gordon