EGR Blank on 08 TDV6

[Ean Austral]

Gday All,

Well done the EGR blank today, and so far so good. I hooked up hawkeye before I started and ater I finished and have no faults logged, went for a burn and still no faults, so will see how things go.

OK things I learnt doing the blank off.

When you get to the part of the spindle, remove the whole centre housing, it takes about 1 minute.. behind the Y section is a fuel return connecter , it just lifts up off the plastic holder, you dont need to dis-connect anything and just wiggle the housing and the Y pieces will pop out of the inlet housing. There is 1 other connecter on top and it unplugs.

You can then turn housing upside down and access the spindle very easy.I spent 45mins trying to get the spindle out and cracked a small peice of plastic off it, but when you remove the housing and turn it upside down the housing has a slot which allows you to use a big flat blade screwdriver and put it under the plastic part on the base of the spindle and because you are using the housing base as a wedge,not the edge, you can apply more pressure and it popped out in about 1 min.

The beauty about this is you can do it all on a work bench instead of under the bonnet of the car. Then you remove the ends of the EGR pipes as well and can clean all the gunk, and there's heaps of it, out of the housing, fit the blanks, refit the spindle and then just fit the whole housing back onto the engine conpletely done and ready for the airbox to go straight back on.

Anyway, if anyone would like to know more , or I haven't explained to properly ask away or send me a PM.

Will keep undated on whether any faults pop up.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Well done - where are all the blow by blow pics.

Everyone (here and in the UK) has said it couldn't be done but when I asked who had actually tried I got no responses other than it cannot be done. I began to think an urban myth.

Then a guy did it in the Uk and it worked. It would seem that on the post 07MY cars the egrs still have to be serviceable where on earlier cars it is not an issue.

Please keep us informed of your progress as I am interested in doing mine while they are still working. I had egr faults late last year but it was the connector rather than the egrs - a bit of a clean up and no further faults.

How long did it take and what spares and consumables do you need in advance??

Cheers

Garry

[Ean Austral]

Gday Garry,

As for blow by blow pics, I thought about it, but when you buy the EGR bank kit, it has step by step instructions, but they say to remove the spnidle and butterfly in the car, well I tried that, and I could see I was going to do major damage to something, so I remove the whole housing.
That took about 1 minute extra, and made the job so much easier, you just move 1 electrical connecter out of the way ( the fuel return 1 infront of the oil filter housing, and 1 on top next to the Y piece, and do the spindle removal and the removal of the EGR stub pipes on a work bench.

I took 3 hours, but spent 45 mins getting the spindle out and 30 mins cleaning the gunk out of the housing. Its actually quite an easy job except for the spindle withdrawal.

Tools needed, 8 mm socket and universal joint with 2 extensions or 1 long 1 for the bolts down beside the engine where the blanks go once you remove the EGR pipe
10mm spanner,
8mm spanner,
couple flat blade screwdrivers
T30 and T25 torx bits
1 pair of small hands.
plenty of rags, and some good degreaser.

If I did it again, could be done in 2 hours with a coffee in the middle.

Cant say I can tell if the car drives any better, but does seem to kick down as soon as you hit the loud peddle.

Cheers Ean

[Ean Austral]

This is the engine with no more EGR fitted

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2072/img1173rd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/img1173rd.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

This is the centre housing I say to remove, you can see the 2 extra connecters at the back, the red 1 just lifts off the bracket and the 1 on top of the housing just unplugs.

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5978/img1175oh.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/img1175oh.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

The rest is as per the instructions you get when you buy the blanking kit

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

1 pair of small hands.


Thanks

But I do not have small hands :(

[Ean Austral]

Thanks

But I do not have small hands :(

Me either, but it would make putting the blank on the drivers side a blody lot easier to do, and to get the bolt back in on the air box as well.

The drivers side is the hardest side to do as there is not alot of room, and this is where you need the socket universal as 1 bolt is just on the wrong angle.

Cheers Ean

[Ean Austral]

Gday All,

Well got our first fault today, I wasnt in the car , but after hooking up hawkeye, the fault said something along the lines of excessive EGR detected, and 3 orange lights came on the dash, and a brake message on the message centre.

The car still drove ok and never seemed to lose power or have a suspension drop, so have cleared the fault and will see how long it takes to re-appear. Done about 180-200ks since EGR blank.

Will keep updated on how it goes.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Bummer :(

[Ean Austral]

Bummer :(

I also see the bloke on the UK site is having issues as well :(:(


Will see how we go.

Cheers Ean

[400HPONGAS]

bad luck .you see what is really required is a deeper understanding of the EGR system,how it works and what exactly triggers what .By not removing the actual EGR valves ,both sides what is actually achieved ? Sure ,removing the Piping from the valve to the butterfly controller removes any chance of EGR Gass/Crud/contaminantsgetting into the inlet tract , but how does that lead to Excessive EGR . Withn my early model engine , the butterfly shaft remains connected and in place and operational , is that the same as yours EAN ? (as per the BAS write up)This butterfly is called the "Electric throttle" but appears to be driven by the needs of the EGR system

The combined EGR modulator and cooler is located under each cylinder bank, between the exhaust manifold and the
cylinder head. The cooler side of the EGR is connected to the vehicle cooling system, via hoses. The inlet exhaust side is
connected directly into the exhaust manifolds on each side. The exhaust gas passes through the cooler and is expelled
via the actuator and a metal pipe into the throttle housing. The EGR modulator is a solenoid operated valve which is
controlled by the ECM. The ECM uses the EGR modulator to control the amount of exhaust gas being recirculated in
order to reduce exhaust emissions and combustion noise. The EGR is enabled when the engine is at normal operating
Is this when you get the Fault Light Ean ?
(only when its up to temp)

[Ean Austral]

bad luck .you see what is really required is a deeper understanding of the EGR system,how it works and what exactly triggers what .By not removing the actual EGR valves ,both sides what is actually achieved ? Sure ,removing the Piping from the valve to the butterfly controller removes any chance of EGR Gass/Crud/contaminantsgetting into the inlet tract , but how does that lead to Excessive EGR . Withn my early model engine , the butterfly shaft remains connected and in place and operational , is that the same as yours EAN ? (as per the BAS write up)This butterfly is called the "Electric throttle" but appears to be driven by the needs of the EGR system

The combined EGR modulator and cooler is located under each cylinder bank, between the exhaust manifold and the
cylinder head. The cooler side of the EGR is connected to the vehicle cooling system, via hoses. The inlet exhaust side is
connected directly into the exhaust manifolds on each side. The exhaust gas passes through the cooler and is expelled
via the actuator and a metal pipe into the throttle housing. The EGR modulator is a solenoid operated valve which is
controlled by the ECM. The ECM uses the EGR modulator to control the amount of exhaust gas being recirculated in
order to reduce exhaust emissions and combustion noise. The EGR is enabled when the engine is at normal operating
Is this when you get the Fault Light Ean ?
(only when its up to temp)



I did the blanking as per the BAS write up, and drove the car with no probs, went for a burn up the freeway at 100ks backing off the pedal and re-accelerating plenty of times, thinking the fault would register when I backed off.Car done approx 180kms over 8 days no faults.

Our daughter drove the car to the airport at 5am the other morning, and with no traffic and just cruising along the fault registered, so unsure what triggered it. The only thing I can think of is it must be the MAF registering extra air flow or something, as I can see how the ECU can get a reading from the EGR if its blanked..But as you say I dont fully understand how the EGR works...I follow the priciple, but thats about it.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

I also see the bloke on the UK site is having issues as well :(:(


Will see how we go.

Cheers Ean

Isn't that some other guy who has got a hole drilled in his blanks. I thought the guy who first did it is still OK.

[Ean Austral]

Isn't that some other guy who has got a hole drilled in his blanks. I thought the guy who first did it is still OK.

You could be right Garry, didn't really read it that thouroughly to be honest.

Will log on and read with abit more attention this time.

I still cant understand the fault that logged, excessive EGR presure, I assumed by blanking the EGR you just got good clean air on the inlet side, but need to understand how the system works a bit better me thinks.

I would have thought a MAF fault would have been more likely.

Anyway, will see how long it goes for this time, worse case is will put the EGR pipes back on.:(:(

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Now you understand why I preferred someone else to be the guinea pig :(

I hope it all works though.

;)

Garry

[Graeme]

I suspect the MAP sensor is registering considerably more pressure than there would be if the butterfly was still in place. However with the butterfly in place, there might be too litle pressure...

EGR occurs whilst cruising on light throttle. At 100 kph EGR is probably not occurring at all because the engine is working too hard, nor on overrun when no fuel is being used. Backing off slightly at 100 kph is more likely to trigger EGR.

[Ean Austral]

Well tried to get the fault to register today with no joy.

Took the car for a burn trying to set it off in both D and sport mode, fanged from standing starts then backed off... sat on 110 the backed off and let it coast down to 40.. tried stabbing the accel and back off, all with no fault appearing, so will keep driving as per usual and see if it decides to appear again.

More confused than anything now.

Cheers Ean

[Dougal]

I did the blanking as per the BAS write up, and drove the car with no probs, went for a burn up the freeway at 100ks backing off the pedal and re-accelerating plenty of times, thinking the fault would register when I backed off.Car done approx 180kms over 8 days no faults.

Our daughter drove the car to the airport at 5am the other morning, and with no traffic and just cruising along the fault registered, so unsure what triggered it. The only thing I can think of is it must be the MAF registering extra air flow or something, as I can see how the ECU can get a reading from the EGR if its blanked..But as you say I dont fully understand how the EGR works...I follow the priciple, but thats about it.

Cheers Ean

I haven't been into the code in the TDv6 ECU (I don't really want to), but even the most simple diesel ECU's controlling EGR have several maps and sensors to work from.

My work car had three maps controlling EGR. The first was map to switch it on/off varying amounts triggered on fuel injection quantities (engine load) and rpm.
The second map was EGR valve target position. The third map was flow correction, essentially how much it expected the MAF readings to drop.

In this vehicle I had blanked the EGR shortly after I got it (no fault codes), but it wasn't until I could get into the ECU and flatten out these three maps that performance improved. The restricted MAF values were limiting fuelling in those rpm/load instances where it was trying to still activate the EGR valve.

So where am I going with this?
Blanking EGR is kind of futile on a modern engine. The best way to acheive no EGR is by recoding the ECU, then you can blank it off if you wish (it will be closed anyway). In europe this appears to be commonplace in remapped cars. In Aus and NZ, it appears to be unheard of.

[Ean Austral]

I haven't been into the code in the TDv6 ECU (I don't really want to), but even the most simple diesel ECU's controlling EGR have several maps and sensors to work from.

My work car had three maps controlling EGR. The first was map to switch it on/off varying amounts triggered on fuel injection quantities (engine load) and rpm.
The second map was EGR valve target position. The third map was flow correction, essentially how much it expected the MAF readings to drop.

In this vehicle I had blanked the EGR shortly after I got it (no fault codes), but it wasn't until I could get into the ECU and flatten out these three maps that performance improved. The restricted MAF values were limiting fuelling in those rpm/load instances where it was trying to still activate the EGR valve.

So where am I going with this?
Blanking EGR is kind of futile on a modern engine. The best way to acheive no EGR is by recoding the ECU, then you can blank it off if you wish (it will be closed anyway). In europe this appears to be commonplace in remapped cars. In Aus and NZ, it appears to be unheard of.

Not to sure of why it would be futile, when the amount of krud build-up on the inlet side of the engine on a car with only 80,000ks is quite amazing and surely cannot be good for the engine.. I also believe it cant be doing the oil alot of good..but that is my own personal opinion, I dont have any facts or figures to prove so.

It is for these reasons that I wanted to blank the egr's, plus the fact that they seem to be a costly item when they do fail, I am not trying to get any major performance change, altho I wont complain if it does come as a bonus of the blanking.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Blanking EGRs will not result in engine performance improvements (unless there is something wrong in the first place) noting they are closed (same as when blanked) in the performance cycles of the engine. EGRs are blanked to save $$$ - in the order of $1500 to $2000 to get both EGRs replaced at a stealer.

I guess there is merit in looking at the blanking and error light issue from the ECU perspective but as far as the later TDV6, TDV8 and SDV6 engines no one in Europe has come up with a solution as yet and there are no 100% solutions. A couple of people in the UK have blanked the eu4 and leter engines without issue but most have not been successful.

Garry

[Dougal]

Not to sure of why it would be futile, when the amount of krud build-up on the inlet side of the engine on a car with only 80,000ks is quite amazing and surely cannot be good for the engine.. I also believe it cant be doing the oil alot of good..but that is my own personal opinion, I dont have any facts or figures to prove so.

It's futile in the fact that the ECU will be reading pressures and temperatures from several different sensors to check the EGR is working. Being able to blank it without ECU error codes will be virtually impossible.

Fitting a blanking plate with holes drilled is pretty much a waste of time.

But regarding the EGR crud that builds up. I have experience with this in my own vehicles, the worst is found in my non-turbo diesel which was plugged to about 30% open area on some intake ports. One owner in europe with the same base engine as my non-turbo but turbocharged with commonrail injection has found virtually no build-up. The cleaner the engines burn, the smaller the problem.

Given the 26,000km oil change intervals on the current engines and the fact they meet euro 4 without a DPF, I would expect them to produce very little soot and very little EGR paste.

What is the failure mode of these valves?

Anyone who is advertising remaps for these engines should be able to map out the EGR function. If they can't, they are likely just selling maps produced by someone else.

[Graeme]

What is the failure mode of these valves?
Reports indicate that the valves on the 2.7 usually corrode which either causes the mechanism to jam or something breaks due to another jammed component. I don't know whether the corrosion is due to exhaust gases getting past the valve stem or whether its caused by water ingress. The primary indication of a failure is that the valve position signal doesn't change as expected by the ecu. I haven't heard about any 3.0 valve failures yet, noting that the valves are not the same as used on the 2.7.

The TD5 ecu had a flag for EGR fitted/not fitted probably because of at least 1 market where no EGR was fitted to the engine (South Africa IIRC). The remap used on my TD5 could not be changed to set that flag off but I suspect only because no ecu programmer had bothered to make it configurable. A similar flag for the 2.7 & 3.0 would be nice.

[Ean Austral]

It's futile in the fact that the ECU will be reading pressures and temperatures from several different sensors to check the EGR is working. Being able to blank it without ECU error codes will be virtually impossible.

Fitting a blanking plate with holes drilled is pretty much a waste of time.

But regarding the EGR crud that builds up. I have experience with this in my own vehicles, the worst is found in my non-turbo diesel which was plugged to about 30% open area on some intake ports. One owner in europe with the same base engine as my non-turbo but turbocharged with commonrail injection has found virtually no build-up. The cleaner the engines burn, the smaller the problem.

Given the 26,000km oil change intervals on the current engines and the fact they meet euro 4 without a DPF, I would expect them to produce very little soot and very little EGR paste.

What is the failure mode of these valves?

Anyone who is advertising remaps for these engines should be able to map out the EGR function. If they can't, they are likely just selling maps produced by someone else.

I have done 400kms with my EGR's blanked..no holes drilled anywhere and the butterfly removed, and had 1 fault logged , which is the 1 I have commented on.
Today I tried to activate a fault by trying to get the effect of egr working, which im told if you back off the accel for 6 sec it will cause the egr to activate. but I failed to get a fault reading.

I was under the impression that the oil change interval on the D3 is 15000kms not 26000, but reguardless of that, I know how much krud I cleaned out of the inlet side and what I could see in the manifold that makes me believe that blanking the EGR must be doing more good than harm.

As for the re-map you are most likely correct , but on the UK site , the BAS guys have yet to comeup with a software fix for EGR from what I have read.

Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

Today I tried to activate a fault You could try replicating the conditions that existed when the fault occurred. However I can't see what recreating the fault achieves other than provide a basis for testing further modifications (eg refitting the butterfly) to see if the fault still occurs under these conditions.

Backing off the accelerator totally would be expected to cut fuel altogether (confirmed for my 3.0 by the instantaneous fuel consumption display) meaning there's no advantage in recycling exhaust gas so perhaps EGR is not activated under these conditions.

[400HPONGAS]

Dougal, its obvious that you dont own/drive or repair the 2.7 TDV6 , If you be ever to pull the the entire inlet tract down you will see why the removal of the EGR system ,that in fact doesnt do anything for NOX in diesel anyway, is an essential thing to do to guarentee a much longer life from the engine . Seek and thalt shall find !!! AS the removal of the EGR system ,IS easy and harmless to the Pre 2007 models .the change from the Siemens ECU to the Bosch one around that period has got some more software/algorithms to warn of non-operating EGR .Perhaps its only there to meet some Euro Pollution requirements Euro3 toEuro 4 ? Whatever !
Good on you EAN for giving it a go !

[Dougal]

Dougal, its obvious that you dont own/drive or repair the 2.7 TDV6 , If you be ever to pull the the entire inlet tract down you will see why the removal of the EGR system ,that in fact doesnt do anything for NOX in diesel anyway, is an essential thing to do to guarentee a much longer life from the engine .

EGR is there primarily for NOx, the secondary feature is faster engine warm-up.
Why do you claim it does nothing for NOx in diesels?

I don't own or drive a 2.7 TDV6. My experience here is with diesel remapping and ECU/sensor behaviour.
Graeme, the EGR won't be a flag in these bosch ECU's, rather a series of maps which need to be first found, then understood and altered. There are hundreds of maps in a modern commonrail diesel program, it could take weeks to find and sort out.

[Graeme]

it could take weeks to find and sort out.and then a bit more...

[Dougal]

and then a bit more...

The first diesel ECU I remapped is quite basic and has a little under 60 maps. I spent about 100 hours digging through hex files to find, identify and label those maps before making any changes, but it was an ECU with no "map packs" available.

The more common ECU's through Swiftec or Winols you can purchase map packs (damos etc) which find and label the known maps. I don't know if these are available for the 3.0 TDV6 yet, but if remaps are being sold then at least one tuner knows the layout.

[Disco4SE]

Bell Autos in the UK are doing a re-map for the 3.0Lt.

I spoke with Ritter Landrover in Melbourne the other day. They have someone in NSW working on a re-map as well.

From what I hear, a re-map is safer then a chip.

Cheers, Craig

[Ean Austral]

You could try replicating the conditions that existed when the fault occurred. However I can't see what recreating the fault achieves other than provide a basis for testing further modifications (eg refitting the butterfly) to see if the fault still occurs under these conditions.

Backing off the accelerator totally would be expected to cut fuel altogether (confirmed for my 3.0 by the instantaneous fuel consumption display) meaning there's no advantage in recycling exhaust gas so perhaps EGR is not activated under these conditions.

My main purpose is to see if it is going to be a continuos problem, then if thats the case I will just reconnect the EGR system and be done with it.

Will see how it goes over the next few weeks.

Cheers Ean

[400HPONGAS]

You could always do what the Yanks are doing ,and re-route the EGR gas through a Cyclonic Particulate filter , acually I think the Ford Territory with the TDV6 does ?
Dougal , y feeding the lower oxygen exhaust gas into the intake, diesel EGR systems lower combustion temperature, reducing emissions of NOx. This makes combustion less efficient, compromising economy and power. Diesel EGR also increases soot production, though this was mitigated in the US by the simultaneous introduction of Diesel particulate filter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation#cite_note-5) EGR systems can also add abrasive contaminants and increase engine oil acidity, which in turn can reduce engine longevity.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation#cite_note-Bennett-6)
Though engine manufacturers have refused to release details of the effect of EGR on fuel economy, the EPA regulations of 2002 that led to the introduction of cooled EGR were associated with a 3% drop in engine efficiency, bucking a trend of a .5% a year increase.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation#cite_note-7)

[Graeme]

I've discovered that one of my sons has spent considerable time over the last few months working away at reverse-engineering a Bosch ecu from a twin-spark VVT Alfa motor about which there was very little known other than some of its spark and fueling tables (maps). He's about 50% through the code and finding previously-unknown parameters that if modified could make quite a difference to the performance of these engines for both road use and for racing. He has also discovered that the code in quite different Bosch ecus for quite different vehicles all have very similar structure. I'll get hold of a 2.7 TDV6 ecu dump to see what he can find in the way of EGR parameters. EGR may be able to be disabled by setting an activation parameter to an unobtainable value (eg changing the minimim coolant temperature to 200 degrees) but that requires that at least the appropriate part of the ecu code needs to be understood, not just labelling tables/maps so quite a lot of work likely to be required. Now, where's a 3.0 ecu dump?

[~Rich~]

Jeeze Graeme interesting stuff!
I know of motor vehicle wreakers but unsure where to find a ecu dump. :wasntme:

[Graeme]

There are lots of ecu dumps - just have to know where to find them!

I have yet to ascertain if 2.7 ecu updates are just specific address ranges or the whole ecu but a whole ecu hex file is required. I grabbed an unidentified Rover ecu map file from the Faultmate libray on my PC which was found to be for the whole of a Bosch ecu, so maybe I just need to identify a TDV6 one. The 80+ tables were found in seconds and my son expected to be able to determine the use of more than half of them within 30 minutes from what he already knew from other Bosch ecus and the data values.

[Dougal]

Graeme, which software is your son using?

[Graeme]

He wrote a program which, if I understood correctly, finds all tables and then uses an ecu editor to dissasemble the code allocating generated labels to everything. Useful labels can then be applied to the tables, routines and variables etc, along with adding comments to every line of code as he unravels it. The editor also heirarchically links all called routines, ie flowcharts the entire program. I don't know if the dissassembly program is generally available or provided to him by someone interested in the results.

[Ean Austral]

Sounds like mumbo jumbo to me , but am sure you guys know what the hell you are talking about..:wasntme:

As a matter of interest , no faults have been logged since the orignal fault was logged.:)


Cheers Ean

[Dougal]

He wrote a program which, if I understood correctly, finds all tables and then uses an ecu editor to dissasemble the code allocating generated labels to everything. Useful labels can then be applied to the tables, routines and variables etc, along with adding comments to every line of code as he unravels it. The editor also heirarchically links all called routines, ie flowcharts the entire program. I don't know if the dissassembly program is generally available or provided to him by someone interested in the results.

Good to know, thanks.
I know people who have dis-assembled ECU code, but I haven't done it myself. I have need for such a service on some comparitively very simple diesel ECU's I have here on an engine I'm modifying. I have the ECU dump as a binary file, PM me if he is willing to take a look.

[Ean Austral]

Gday All,

Well the car logged the fault again today, Its fault code P0402 excessive EGR flow detected, the car goes into limp mode and the dash lights up with what in a D2 would be the 3 amigo's.

Turn off the car, restart and all good, cleared the fault with hawkeye, and see how it goes. The fault occured as SWMBO was slowing down to stop at the lights.

Just need to decide if a fault every 3 weeks or so is worth the trouble or just re-fit the EGR system. If I think of the amount of krud in the inlet side, clearing a fault seems like the best option.

Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

If you decide the faults are too inconvenient so need to re-enable EGR, why not put the butterfly back as the 1st step and try that for a while? It might save someone else the trouble of fitting only the plates to see if that triggers any faults.

[Ean Austral]

If you decide the faults are too inconvenient so need to re-enable EGR, why not put the butterfly back as the 1st step and try that for a while? It might save someone else the trouble of fitting only the plates to see if that triggers any faults.

I did think of that, but my simple mind tells me that the butterfly closing and no airflow coming to the intake side will stall the engine, or cause it run very rough. I may not understand the EGR system completely, but again my mind tells me the butterfly is there to close off the air, and when that happens the EGR valves open and exhuast gas enters the inlet side and compensates for the air intake thats blocked by the butterfly.

But sure for the time it takes it will be an easy excersise.

Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

Exhaust gas contains very little or no oxygen and the engine wont run on pure exhaust gas. The butterfly will be closed only as much as necessary to increase exhaust gas to the desired level. However the ecm may determine that inlet pressure is too low for given butterfly and EGR valve positions and still record an EGR airflow fault.

[Dougal]

Exhaust gas contains very little or no oxygen and the engine wont run on pure exhaust gas.

Only in a petrol Graeme. Diesel exhaust has a lot of oxygen, even at full load up to 1/3 of the original oxygen is still present in the exhaust. Most EGR butterflys don't seal anywhere near closed.

I suspect the code description is abbreviated and the actual description would be something like "excessive airflow detected when EGR is activated". The excessive air-flow being measured in the MAF as the ECU expects to read a lower value.

[Ean Austral]

Been doing some reading on the D3 uk site, and its amazing how different each car has acted with the same fault code registered. 3 08 models with EGR blanked have had totally different symtoms to the P0402 code.

Must be the joys of modern engine management systems.

Does anyone know if its posible to clean the EGR valve's , am thinking of maybe putting them back in, but may try and clean some of the gunk out whilst they are out.

Cheers Ean

[Fatso]

Well what hapened ??? .

[Ean Austral]

Well what hapened ??? .

Nothing yet, been to busy, so still driving the car with the EGR's blanked and see how long it takes for the fault to register again. Its running fine so will address it when work slows down a bit and decide if I live with clearing the codes when they pop up or put it back together.

Cheers Ean

[Fatso]

Cheers .

[400HPONGAS]

you must have SPESHUL petrols Dougals , Stoichy/AFR for most petrols is 14.7,and 14.6 for Diesel .Please explain where this extra oxygen is created under which conditions ? Graeme is right ,Dougal is wrong !

[Dougal]

you must have SPESHUL petrols Dougals , Stoichy/AFR for most petrols is 14.7,and 14.6 for Diesel .Please explain where this extra oxygen is created under which conditions ? Graeme is right ,Dougal is wrong !

Diesels at full load are running 18-22:1 A/F ratio. This is where the 1/3 excess air (and excess o2 comes from).
Diesels never run at or near stoich.

At idle and low load diesels can be up to 80-100:1 A/F ratio.

As I said, there is always spare oxygen present in diesel exhaust. It is not "created", it is there from the start.

[Ean Austral]

Gday All,

Well after a month of no faults and thinking all had finally settled down, I had a week of the same EGR fault almost daily.
The final straw came today when towing the trailer and the EGR fault came up 3 times in 20kms.

So I spent a couple of hours late this arvo fitting the EGR system back on the car.

I will try and play around with a few idea's over the next month or so, and it really pains me to put the EGR system back, especially after seeing the crud in the inlet side of the engine, but when the fault appears the car goes into limp mode, suspension drops and the dash lights up, and today was just to much to quick.

Still happy I tried and hopefully someone will work out how to do it successfully.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Bummer - but the guy on the RRS forum in the UK is still OK - he must have been a one off.

[isuzurover]

you must have SPESHUL petrols Dougals , Stoichy/AFR for most petrols is 14.7,and 14.6 for Diesel .Please explain where this extra oxygen is created under which conditions ? Graeme is right ,Dougal is wrong !

:D, um, no... Dougal is correct.

Diesels run large amounts of excess air as the intake is unrestricted. Under most conditions there is enough air that you could breathe pure exhaust and still survive...
(and before anyone asks - yes I have done the experiment - using lab animals not humans...)

[Ean Austral]

Bummer - but the guy on the RRS forum in the UK is still OK - he must have been a one off.

Gday Garry,

Its a strange fault as it tells you excessive EGR gases detected, but according to me it cant have any EGR gases where the senser is, so it must be detecting the excess air in the intake system due to the butterfly being removed.

Anyway there seems to be enough people trying to get this to work, so im sure it will get sorted at some stage.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

My check engine light is on - last time it showed a EGR fault but turned out to be the connector - I am waiting for a Faultmate to arrive so I can read my current faults. I was hoping your experience would be positive and I would do the same but if I have real egr issues this time it looks like replacement which I am not looking forward to.

Garry

[Ean Austral]

My check engine light is on - last time it showed a EGR fault but turned out to be the connector - I am waiting for a Faultmate to arrive so I can read my current faults. I was hoping your experience would be positive and I would do the same but if I have real egr issues this time it looks like replacement which I am not looking forward to.

Garry

Is the car in limp mode Garry? As with my EGR fault theb car would reset the system once turned off then restarted, and the dash lights would go out and the car would function normal.

I am happy to send you the blanking Kit if you want to try the excersize yourself.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

Hi Ean,

As before the check engine light is on but the car runs fine - no issues at all. While some fault lights come on when the fault is there it goes away when the fault goes away but is kept in memory - however I understand that with the check engine light it stays on irrespective whether the fault has been fixed or not until it is cleared by a code reader. That certainly happened previously when I had my scan gauge - the fault light stayed on until cleared.

Thanks for the offer of the blanks but I will hold off until a solution is definitely developed. I am hopeful that as before it was just the connector to the LH EGR that has logged the fault and that the Faultmate will clear it. However the fault came up on start while still cranking so likely to be something else. EGR faults should show up when driving not on start.

Cheers

Garry

[Graeme]

Gday Garry,

Its a strange fault as it tells you excessive EGR gases detected, but according to me it cant have any EGR gases where the senser is, so it must be detecting the excess air in the intake system due to the butterfly being removed.
After having limp-home mode with my 3.0 due to airflow plausibility faults caused by 2nd turbo or 2nd turbo air inlet valve problems, I'm wondering if limp-home mode is triggered for any airflow fault. In the case of blocked EGR valves and butterfly removed, an airflow plausibility fault caused by the removed butterfly could be the trigger rather than anything to do with possible faulty EGR valves for emission control. Its unfortunate that just refitting the butterfly for a while couldn't be tolerated but I certainly understand the desire to prevent limp-home mode events. Limp-home on the 3.0 wasn't much better than creep home.

[101RRS]

It looks like BAS in the UK has finally come up with a system to blank EGRs in post 07MY 2.7s. It does require the removal of the butterflys but also requires the BAS Engine Remap to be installed and requires additional ECU modification. In the final stages of testing but looks like it is a goer - pricing has not been announced but the remap by itself is in the order of $800-$900.

While I understand how EGRs work one thing I do not understand are the circumstances that make them fail earlier than others. Mine have failed after 65000km and specifically after driving 1400km virtually non stop at 100kph. Others have failed earlier - a mates had his fail at 130,000km and I know of another D3 that has covered 170,000km and it is still on its original EGRs. So what driving conditions make these things fail earlier than later and what makes them last?

Cheers

Garry

[101RRS]

Put this up on the Disco3Uk site.

I have the EML on but the engine runs fine so I assume my EGRS are locked in the open position. When codes are cleared the eml stays off until next start and do not come on when the engine is running.

My new EGRs arrived in the post today - usual shipping rip off - Charged 50 pounds but actual cost 30 pounds but that is another story.

Being inquisitive, and as my current codes only occur on start I connected both new EGRs to the electrical connectors to see what actually happens with them on start up - the old EGRs are still connected to the car. I cleared all codes and found they did not come back as you would expect with new egrs and ignition only on. On start the valves remain closed. The car started up OK no codes. So I went for a 20km drive in town and the freeway at 110kph - still no codes - I stopped with the engine running and looked at the valves and they were wide open and then closed as I was watching them - still no codes - drove back home and put the faultmate on - still no codes.

So this does beg the question - are the egr fault codes really generated by differential manifold pressures in that sensors are not receiving expected pressures when signals have been sent to the EGRs for open and close or is it in fact as simple as that if the actual piston that drives the valves does not move as expected a fault is generated. I drove for 40km in situations that would have the valves opening and closing quite a few times and no faults were logged.

So is this as simple as either locking the old egrs in the closed position or blanking at the old EGR and connecting the electrical connectors to either a serviceable EGR or some sort of signal generator.

Changing the car back to normal brought the codes straight back.

The question to myself is - do I leave the new EGRs connected electrically as above and do a longer term test. Or just put the EGRs in and or get Bell Autos new system.

I might put them back in as suggested above and see what happens.

Cheers

Garry

[~Rich~]

I'd say it depends!

If I had a 08 model and already had the BAS remap I'd definitely purchase the patch.

If I didn't have the BAS remap and disliked the "Lag" on the throttle I'd purchase both and blank the existing EGR's. ;)

If I was happy with the way the vehicle went I'd purchase the MSV Extreme and the patch!

Seeing you have already purchased the Faultmate I'd rule the last option out, I have the BAS remap and blanked EGR's on a 05 and are happy I have not had to replace the existing EGR's.
(Love the BAS remap too)

Rich

[Ean Austral]

Gday Garry, reading the data that B>A>S wrote you need to keep the connection to the EGR even when blanked. I think the faults are logged by a differential to the parameters set in the ECU, and that's why my fault kept coming up as a excess pressure, as I believe it was triggered by the MAF not the EGR, but somewhere its all linked, and I think this is how B>A>S has fooled the ECU, by changing these perameters.

It seems to be a mission to remove them, but would be interesting to see if they can be freed up and lubed somehow.

Cheers Ean

[kiwirich]

I've also just done the remap on a 2009 D3 and will certainly do the EGR Blanking now there is a viable fix for the Engine fault.

The Remap has improved Fuel Consumption from 9.6 to 8.9 on the Wishful Trip guage & the Power upgrade is delightful. More importantly, the power delivery is almost seamless.

It means that now I don't put my foot down to take off & wait wait wait.

Foot down more wait wait wait

Foot down more wait wait wait

Small delivery of forward Motion

Leaving immediately........Holy crap, where's the brakes ??

[Fatso]

Garry interesting to read your results but agree with ean, i think the answer is in what the MAFF reads ?? ie with the butterfly closed and air being drawn from the exhaust there sould be little air passing through the MAFF, As my Mapp was completly blocked when inspected i feel that it may not play a part in egr stuff. ?? , In your case with the new egr test fitted , i wonder if it it would be the same as blanking off the original working egr before it failed , food for thought . Would be good to know what has exactly failed in your egr,s
As a side note i ordered my Faultmate and used EMS post at the cheaper rate and delivery was 7 days to PO . :confused:

[101RRS]

Gday Garry, reading the data that B>A>S wrote you need to keep the connection to the EGR even when blanked. I think the faults are logged by a differential to the parameters set in the ECU, and that's why my fault kept coming up as a excess pressure, as I believe it was triggered by the MAF not the EGR, but somewhere its all linked, and I think this is how B>A>S has fooled the ECU, by changing these perameters.

It seems to be a mission to remove them, but would be interesting to see if they can be freed up and lubed somehow.

Cheers Ean

I don't disagree at all - however when I drove it yesterday the new EGrs though not connected to the exhaust but connected electrically to the ECU went though all their cycles as no codes came up at all.

As I always had the intention of getting a BAS map in due course I have decided to go the new system that Pete at BAS has developed. I rang him last night and we discussed my experience yesterday - believes that with the setup I had yesterday the inlet could suck in air from the crankcase and would not be good for the engine - I do not know enough to dispute one way or another. He also said that the ECU does not fault (EML on) with the first fault as it could just be a one off but stores them until a thresh hold is reached and sets off the light/limp etc - this may have been why your experience was initially good and later the lights/limp mode set in and why my experience yesterday was good.

Anyway I have ordered the complete package from BAS comprising engine remap, hardware, blanks and the revised egr remap. As I am the first car that he has come across in his trials with the dud egrs still connected I have made a deal with him not to fit my new egrs at this time and install the new system on the old egrs (afterall that is what it is designed for). If there are issues with the old egrs I will just put the new ones in and hopefully all will be good forever. If the system works as planned with the old egrs I should be able to sell the new egrs to offset the overall cost.

Also we discussed the scenarios that cause EGR failure as it can be as low as 40,000km or I know someone with a D3 and 170,000km and he has no issues - mine has only 65,000km on it. Pete at BAS said that as a general rule town use will clog them up and long distance use will see them lasting longer - the egrs open on trailing throttle and when driving at high speed less soot is laid down.

My car's typical use is driving down to the shops to get a latte (well cappuccino) however my egrs failed on a one day trip from Canberra to Melbourne and back - generally driving at 100-110kph which does go against the thinking.

I should get the gear early next week and I will let you know how things go.

Garry

[Ean Austral]

Be interesting to see how it pans out Garry.

Do you have a Faultmate that will accept the remap ? I thought it had to be the top of the range faultmate.

I will just have to wait to see if it can be done thru hawkeye later in the piece.

Cheers Ean

[101RRS]

The remap includes the BAS hardware to install and recover the maps. That piece of hardware will also read and clear ECU codes but nothing else.

[101RRS]

The BAS interface hardware arrived today with the BAS EGR blanking kit.

I managed to download the engine map from my ECU and send it to BAS. However even though my car is a MY07 it has a 06 ECU Map so BAS will have to work on to make it all work - if they cannot fix it I will have to take the car to the dealer to get the ECU software updated and then send that map to BAS.

In the meantime I started to install the blanks - the passenger side EGR valve was not sooted up much but was slightly open so not fully closing. The drivers side had a bit more soot but it was closed. The pipes were only lightly sooted. Of course things were going well so something had to stuff up - I lost one of the blanks down the side of the engine never to be seen again - it never got down to the undertray. Despite lots of searching with a LED Borescope I haven't been able to find it :(. If not found when I have look again in the morning I have an old stainless steel saucepan lined up to make another one out of.

As Malcolm Fraser once said - life was not meant to be easy :mad:.

Garry

[Tinto]

What is the process with the BAS unit?
I was under the impression it came pre-loaded but downloading your map sounds similar to the process I just went through with a Viezu v-switch. Makes sense as it is the same base hardware (alientech I believe).

Was 06->07 a turning point in the RRS ECU software or hardware?
Did they sell you something 07-specific?

I'm really looking forward to seeing the outcome - good luck!

[101RRS]

The BAS system comprises an interface that can talk to the ECU and then files can be saved to a computer from the interface. You use the interface to take a copy of the map on the ECU and then you send it to BAS who provide a MAP specific to your vehicle. That is emailed back and you load it onto the interface for uploading to the cars ECU. The interface retains the performance MAP and the standard MAP so that when services are done the original can be placed back into the ECU so the performance map does not get overwritten if the dealer does a software upgrade. In theory - if you wanted it and paid for it you could have an economy map, a towing map, a sports map all stored on your computer to be uploaded as needed.

The 07MY went to EU4 specs so major changes in the way the Ecu is set up amongst other changes.

The MAP is not specific to any year but is specific to you own map.

garry

[101RRS]

I managed to download the engine map from my ECU and send it to BAS. However even though my car is a MY07 it has a 06 ECU Map

This is confirmed - even though my car is a MY07 and EU4 compliant it has an 06 (not sure if MY06 or 2006) standard engine map.

How does this come about? - it is the map the car came with. Are all Aust 2.7s the same or is it just my car?

Any ideas or thoughts? In theory I guess it is possible to blank my EGRs without having a mod done to the ECU even though my car is MY07.

Garry

[Graeme]

My understanding is that there was an MY07.5 upgrade that occurred for the D3 and RRS some time during the MY07 model run when lots of changes were implemented at the 1 time. Vehicles built prior to the upgrade were basically MY06 spec, just built early in the MY07 production year. As an example, I suspect a Llams module calibrated on your vehicle wont work on a later MY07 RRS without first being recalibrated because I know of suspension ecu changes implemented in the MY07.5 upgrade.

[Graeme]

Any ideas or thoughts? In theory I guess it is possible to blank my EGRs without having a mod done to the ECU even though my car is MY07.
I thought this would be the situation when you reported that connecting the new EGR valves without fitting them didn't cause the EGR air-flow fault that occurs in later MY07 vehicles.

[101RRS]

My understanding is that there was an MY07.5 upgrade that occurred for the D3 and RRS some time during the MY07 model run when lots of changes were implemented at the 1 time. Vehicles built prior to the upgrade were basically MY06 spec, just built early in the MY07 production year.

As you have indicated there are 2007 production year vehicles that are 06MY spec and there are 2007 production year vehicles that are 07MY spec- I have confirmed that mine is a proper 07MY through topix and has the parts changes for the 07My like uprated fuel filter etc. The 07MY ran into the 08 production year.

So it seems that my car is 07my in all aspects except for its ECU map.


I thought this would be the situation when you reported that connecting the new EGR valves without fitting them didn't cause the EGR air-flow fault that occurs in later MY07 vehicles.

However there have been plenty of reports that blanking will work on a post 07MY - at least for a while before the EML comes back - so it may just be a issue like that.

If it stops raining I will be able to check things out tomorrow - I will finish the blanking process (I made a new one to make up for the one I lost) and and see what happens. I have a new Map to upload to the ECU after that so ideally all will be fixed. If not I will see how having the good egrs connected actually works in the longer term.

Garry

[101RRS]

I was able to complete the blanking without further issue - the gunk in the inlet system was quite thick as expected.

I then cleared codes using my faultmate which cleared the engine management light (EML) but the codes remained logged and the EML soon came back.

I cleared the codes again to get the EML off – I then uploaded the Test Map (original map modified to hopefully switch off the EML on the blanked engine). – before starting I tried to clear the codes (EGR Sensor A and EGR Sensor C) but they remained. I went for a drive but the EML light came back on :(. So it would appear the Test Map will not switch off the EML on my now blanked engine.

I unplugged the old EGRs and connected the new EGRs which immediately cleared the EML without having to clear codes - I cleared the codes and went for a long drive and as before - all went well, no EML and no codes.

I have sent this information back to Bell Auto Services (BAS) to review and am waiting a response.

From my experience with this, it looks as if the engine can be blanked as long as the EGRs are working. If a software solution cannot be found and if they were easy to get to, I would remove the old EGRs, blank the new EGRs on the exhaust side so no gases get into them and install the new ones.

As an alternative I could formalise my temporary setup by mounting the new EGRs at the rear of the engine or in the drivers side battery box and run a wiring loom from the EGR connectors. Unfortunately no one sells the EGR style connectors locally so if anyone knows where I could get these I could get two cables made up - I believe there is a loom maker in Melbourne who can do this but I am not sure who they are.

I will let you know how the EGR remapping goes.

Garry