ARB air locker into sals - do it yourself?

[Didge]

HI all, just how hard is it to install an arb air locker into a salisbury diff? I know you need a few special tools but quotes of $600+ are making me think (only think) about having a crack at it myself. I hear it would need to be shimmed and backlash and preload need to be set (not that I'm totally up on those two) but it doesn't really look like rocket science. But I have learnt to take the good advice of others, so await your learned opinions with baited breath :)
cheers Gerald

[landy]

Hi. I have fitted mine myself in the defender (F&R) at home and managed it without the diff spreader. However, if you arent to handy with a spanner ( I was a mechanic ) and can't get your head around the math for the shims and don't have the tools to measure them correctly then leave it well alone. And that's before you even think about drilling a hole in the RH bearing cap or drilling holes in the diff housing. stuff that up and you end up with lots of expensive scrap. Pay the experts and sleep well at night.

Cheers Nino

[clive22]

Hi,

I think you'll find a few threads on this. I've done it, but it's not so much tricky, but difficult to know when you have the settings/preloads/gear engagement right, so in and out a lot.

If you have to buy tapered tap & matching drill, dial gauge and magnetic stand, feeler guages, solid axle stands, etc the shop price is probably worth it it.

It'll probably take or at least allow all day, and really consider taking the diff out of the car, it's so much easier to work on- the dana/sals centre is really heavy and unless you have a hoist hard to see well enough under the car. When I did mine I ended up doing this.

The newer ARB lockers don't go through the bearing cap so one less one thing to do.

I'd say the safest and maybe in the long run cheapest way to go is to take the the diff out to the diff shop save a few bucks there and use that saving to contribute to installing new pinion bearings, flange/seals checked and maybe replaced to ensure no leaks and install a solid opinion spacer in lieu of collapsible.

This will ensure a much more reliable diff in the long run. I think you'll find lots of threads on these

Clive


I

[Didge]

Thanks very much guys. I appreciate your feedback. I'm reasonably handy with a spanner but not a mechanic, don't have the specialist tools or a hoist but reckon I could easily get my head around the maths for the shims, etc but then again certainly see the value in getting it done professionally. Might have to try finding a cheaper installation price (if they exist) or alternatively finding a bit more income. Many thanks again
cheers gerald

[101 Ron]

Pay some one to do it.
600 dollars sounds like good value to me for the effort involed.
Pick a diff specialist, or a more experienced mechanic too.
ARB lockers can have problems with leaking O rings.
Get the set up on the carrier bearings abit wrong and thats what you will get and why some people get problematic lockers and others trouble free.
Sometimes a Automotive engineer is not the grease monkeys that they are made out to be.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/fcs-military-variations/76403-arb-diff-lock-2.html

[lambrover]

I think the leaking seals are from the old type of Oring, they now run a square section Oring.

I have fitted both mine and one to a sierra no dramas(I am a mechanic when not a soldier :D).

You do need a dial indicator though and feeler gauges, + the other normal tools.

have fun either way :)

[Didge]

Thanks again gents,even though I'd really like to do it myself cos I find diffs fascinating, I'm now starting to lean towards getting someone to do it. I've had three "quotes" - $620 from the 4WD centre at Taren Point, Sydney, $720 from ARB themselves cos they'll hit me up cos it's second hand and "we won't do an ARB locker" from Graeme Cooper, near Newtown, Sydney. I guess there are times when its wiser to do more of what you do every day to earn a buck and use that money to pay someone else to do what they do everyday to earn a buck. many thanks to all
cheers Gerald

[middy.01]

have a go your self mate. its easy enough and just buy a dial indicator and stand of ebay.

i put an arb locker in my Salisbury front axle and did it with out a separator.

there is only 1 way to learn and your under standing of diffs will get allot better.

maybe give your self a full weekend though and before you take out your diff check the backlash and tooth pattern with oxide coloring.

[Didge]

Thanks middy.01 - now I'm really confused. I'd like to have a go myself and did consider just buying the tools but I've got a bit of work around the house on my plate. aarrgghh decisions, decisions - still, I've got to get the locker yet .thanks again :)

[goingbush]

A timely thread, thanks.
Im about to put a Detroit Trutrac into the Salisbury in my 04 Defender,
Asides from the fact that its half the price, main Reason Im not going ARB is the Traction Control will compliment the TrueTrac & vice versa. Would have been so easy and even cheaper to just crack the carrier & put a Detroit Soft Locker in but what a waste of the Traction control.




http://www.aulro.com/afvb/fcs-military-variations/76403-arb-diff-lock-2.html

Thanks for the link, very useful info.
I will have the same backlash & shimming issues with the TrueTrac as the ARB , only thing I won't need to do is airlines etc.

Re Shimming for backlash. Im thinking to save hassles to under shim between the cones & carrier then do final set up with the big shims between the cups & housing. This will save pulling the bearings off.

Any reasons why this won't work ??

[101RRS]

i put an arb locker in my Salisbury front axle and did it with out a separator.



What vehicle have you got a front salisbury in? Was it a difficult mod to do?

Garry

[Didge]

I'm still looking around trying to get more prices for an install and I'm getting responses from mechanics ranging from emphatic "no's" to the "sound" advice of "don't install a second hand locker" so, as I'm supposed to be (haven't heard from him for a while) getting this from justinc, who's a vendor on this site and says this locker is in excellent condition, I may have to try installing myself. ????? :(

[goingbush]

I'm still looking around trying to get more prices for an install and I'm getting responses from mechanics ranging from emphatic "no's" to the "sound" advice of "don't install a second hand locker" so, as I'm supposed to be (haven't heard from him for a while) getting this from justinc, who's a vendor on this site and says this locker is in excellent condition, I may have to try installing myself. ????? :(

Yo Didge, if you end up doing it yourself and you want a diff spreader let me know. I made one for the job, once I'm done installing my truetrac you can have it for the cost of post. Despite what a lot of people here are saying you do need one, if your carrier 'just drops out' and you can put it back in with a ' tap of a rubber hammer' the carrier bearing preload won't be correct.

[landy]

Hi goingbush,

I didn't use a diff spreader with mine, just put the complete diff after making the shim calculations and build up in the freezer for a couple of hours. Worked a treat but I needed gloves on the refit as it was pig to handle. This was a tip I was given by the boys in the workshop at work. And they work on 110's everyday.
I'm very happy and confident it's right.

Nino

[isuzurover]

Hi goingbush,

I didn't use a diff spreader with mine, just put the complete diff after making the shim calculations and build up in the freezer for a couple of hours. Worked a treat but I needed gloves on the refit as it was pig to handle. This was a tip I was given by the boys in the workshop at work. And they work on 110's everyday.
I'm very happy and confident it's right.

Nino

Ditto - I used a couple of crowbars to remove the centre and a copper or leather hammer to refit (can't remember which one now). I am 100% sure the preload is correct.

[Didge]

Thankyou very much for that offer goingbush; very much appreciated. That's what I like about this forum and the community attitude it fosters. I'm about to collect 140 LR mags from Frenchie who is in Canberra (all for free because he's finished with them) and when I finish with them it'll be the same.
Landy, that's also a good tip; amazing what tricks and tips are out there in the industry, I've learnt so much from coming to this site nearly every night (which reminds me I must renew my subscription).
Now, this is going to sound really foolish considering I'm thinking about doing the install myself (subject to prices) what just exactly what is preload? I have seen it on a video so I'm guessing it's the amount of tightening of some certain nut or bearing.
cheers Gerald

[goingbush]

No worries,

Simplistically 'Preload' means the bearings are squashed in tight , so if your diff falls out or goes in easy there is not enough preload.
The preload is adjusted by inserting shims in-between the Carrier & the bearing cones, or between the bearing cups and housing.

the other adjustment is you need is backlash, which means you can turn the crown wheel back & forward a little (.15 to .25mm) before its teeth mesh with the pinion teeth.

Either do some measurements with feeler gauge & calculator & get it right first time or juggle the preload shims side to side to get the backlash right.

Its much easier with a rover diff as there are adjustment rings on each side of the carrier bearings.

The freezer trick will work, but don't put your tounge on it.

Probably why we can get away with imperfect diff setup in a Salisbury is its very forgiving because of its strength. One thing thats not in the manual Most important thing is use oxide paste or bearing blue to check your gear mesh pattern.

You will get some tips here. Dana 60 questions (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/dana-60-questions-153133.html)
For the purposes of this argument the Dana60 is the same as a 8HA Salisbury

And if your diff is in good nick, as it should be in a Landy you can save yourself some trouble, Before you pull it apart check the backlash & tooth contact pattern, if its good you won't need to remove the pinion, if you do just leave the pinion shims as you found them.

also heres a neat video, (noted, they don't use a spreader) dosent show everything you need but might pick up a tip . Ignore removing the Caliper bit we don't need to do that.

..Don

Jeep Drivetrain Winner: Installing Detroit Truetrac Differentials and Locker - YouTube

[Didge]

You're a champion Don, thanks for the advice. As I said earlier I am keen to have a go myself to learn but also have to consider the wisdom in the advice of others who've said "just pay to get it done" which leaves me in a quandry (if that's how you spell it). Still waiting to get the locker :)
cheers Gerald

[justinc]

You're a champion Don, thanks for the advice. As I said earlier I am keen to have a go myself to learn but also have to consider the wisdom in the advice of others who've said "just pay to get it done" which leaves me in a quandry (if that's how you spell it). Still waiting to get the locker :)
cheers Gerald

Hey Gerald.

sorry i am still on holidays, will be back at work monday, meantime will get $ for you asap on freight. e-go couriers are way cheaper than anyone else but not extremely quick:( pity you aren't close, i could install too. i am avail for over phone advice if you are installing yourself though.

jc

[Didge]

ooh that's spooky justinc, sounds like I was talking about you behind your back, but I wasn't. Don't worry, still no hurry, the wife's given me plenty of work to do whilst I'm on a couple of weeks holidays. Thanks for the offer and if I do go with the self install, will gladly take you up on your offer.
cheers Gerald
ps how odd is this given your bad news of last week. I just tonight checked my old out of date email address for the first time in months and saw an email from the daughter of an old friend of mine who told me my old friend had died on 1st Feb. ???

[Sitec]

Why the ARB over a Detroit...? Anyhow, if the ARB fits into the carrier like the Detroit does on a Salisbury, do it yourself..If you are handy with the welder it's easy to make the spreader tool. I fitted a detroit into my old 101 without touching any of the shimming. Spread case, remove caps. Remove and split the carrier. Remove guts. Fit locker. Rebolt using locktite and clean surfaces. Refit. As said before if it falls out there's something wrong!

[Didge]

Hi Sitec, I'm buying a second hand arb locker from justinc who's a vendor on this site and also has a landy workshop. He tells me the locker is in excellent condition, it fits my budget at the moment and as you can see, he has kindly offered over the phone advice should I encounter any obstacles during installation. Prior to seeing his ad in the markets I was thinking about the ashcroft locker for the salisbury as they are currently working on one, but in any event I think the price would've been prohibitive. Every time I want to spend money on my mistress (110) the wife wants to spend money on the family home. Like, where are her priorities???
Thanks for the advice on the spreader. I can weld so will have a look at some spreader designs. You make it sound so simple :). If I do go ahead and do it myself I will video and photograph every step to document it to help others.
:)

[isuzurover]

...

Simplistically 'Preload' means the bearings are squashed in tight , so if your diff falls out or goes in easy there is not enough preload.
The preload is adjusted by inserting shims in-between the Carrier & the bearing cones, or between the bearing cups and housing.
...

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that their diffs "fall out" or "go in easy. Just that the amount of preload specified is not that much.

FWIW - I have done R/R of a NOS SIII Salisbury with 0 km. I did not use a spreader. Are you trying tpo tell me that LR set iit up with insufficient preload?


Why the ARB over a Detroit...?

That seems to be a matter of personal preference largely. Some of us prefer a selectable locker, rather than a detroit "unlocker" (which it would be more accurately called). The earlier detroits did have a reputation for bad (clunky) road manners, tyre wear, and self destructing if driven with only one halfshaft. Those issues seem to have been fixed in recent versions though.

[goingbush]

FWIW - I have done R/R of a NOS SIII Salisbury with 0 km. I did not use a spreader. Are you trying to tell me that LR set it up with insufficient preload?



Yes, Exactly what I'm saying !!

If Landrovers were built to spec they would not have the all issues that we know & love.

[isuzurover]

Yes, Exactly what I'm saying !!

If Landrovers were built to spec they would not have the all issues that we know & love.

:angel:

And of course salisburies (and Dana 60s) are failing left right and centre...

[goingbush]

:angel:

And of course salisburies (and Dana 60s) are failing left right and centre...

You know they are not!

what I said earlier is you might get away with a badly set up Salsbury because its forgiving due to the fact that its over engineered (as far as a Defender is concerned).

But I do remember reading about one here on AULRO that broke because it was badly set up.

Fact remains is if the centre comes out easy the preload is wrong, bearings are stuffed or your axle housing is bent.

In the early days I used to install MaxiDrives for Key4wd & I never had any complaints, so either I was getting them right or they were all so bad before that whatever I did must have made some improvement.

As you know plenty of people, even workshops, do their diffs without using a spreader (or even checking the tooth contact pattern) .
I could not give a toss, but I want mine done properly so I do it myself.

http://www.pavementsucks.com/board/thread-I-need-some-Dana-60-help

[isuzurover]

...

In the early days I used to install MaxiDrives for Key4wd ....

Funnily enough Mal was one of the first people to tell me I didn't need a spreader to work on a salisbury.

[101 Ron]

Why the ARB over a Detroit...? Anyhow, if the ARB fits into the carrier like the Detroit does on a Salisbury, do it yourself..If you are handy with the welder it's easy to make the spreader tool. I fitted a detroit into my old 101 without touching any of the shimming. Spread case, remove caps. Remove and split the carrier. Remove guts. Fit locker. Rebolt using locktite and clean surfaces. Refit. As said before if it falls out there's something wrong!

There is alot more work to fit a ARB.....nothing like the detroit to fit.
The diff centre may need to be fitted and removed many times with the ARB to ensure everything is where it is suppost to be and correctly set up.

[isuzurover]

There is alot more work to fit a ARB.....nothing like the detroit to fit.
The diff centre may need to be fitted and removed many times with the ARB to ensure everything is where it is suppost to be and correctly set up.

Yes - If I was fitting an ARB or setting up new gears I would probably use a spreader just to make all the (re)fitting easier.

[goingbush]

There is alot more work to fit a ARB.....nothing like the detroit to fit.
The diff centre may need to be fitted and removed many times with the ARB to ensure everything is where it is suppost to be and correctly set up.

Correct for the Detroit Locker its a simple install job with no set up issues so long as the diff was right to begin with.

The Detroit TrueTrack (LSD) on the other hand is the same as the ARB locker in that the entire Carrier has to be replaced & set up from scratch. Only difference is you don't need any airlines.

[goingbush]

Well I apologise to all for sounding like I know how to do a Salisbury.
I ate a bit of humble pie today. Seems its hard to tell the BSA's from those that know.

That said if you can sort thru the non applicable Jeep stuff there are some good tips here http://www.alljeep.com/tech/install/8.8_true_trac/8-8_true_trac.htm

I did my Sals / Detroit TrueTrac today

Lesson 1 . I had a heck of a time getting that mother out, I had the diff spreader plus jack under the pumpkin to stress relieve it & would not come even with prybars.
I ended up using a load binder with the strap around the carrier & tow bar and winched took a fair bit of strain but It shot out like a missile.

I can't imagine they could have got it in with all that preload so I assume my housing is bent !!!

http://goingbush.com/landy/tt1.jpg

OK diff on the bench & measure up , compare measurements with new TrueTrac calculate & select shims. Fit shims & bearings .

Note to anyone fitting a truetrac , don't know about ARB , but once the bearing is on you CAN NOT get it off without wrecking it & the shims.
I advise you to buy a dana 60 set up kit ( honed out bearings ).
That way you can put the bearing on & pull off by hand to swap shims about.
Once you have your shim pack set use your real bearings.

Lesson 2, another stuff up, I had a seniors moment & mixed up the shim packs with too much on the CW side to avoid disaster I milled 0.5 mm off the outside of the left hand cup. Worked a treat.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/681.jpg


Anyway its all good now, drives great , no noise no clunking & a lot less backlash that the open salisbury. on the uphill test track going 45 degrees across deep culverts the Traction Control used to click away as the front left & right rear wheel leave the ground - now it just keeps on going. sweet !!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/769.jpg

[101 Ron]

I noticed you trimmed up the dags on the bottom of the diff housing .

[blue_mini]

Might be a basic question, but the spreader holds the body of the diff apart to allow the new diff to slot in?
And is there another threaded bar at the top of the spreader?

[101 Ron]

There doesnt have to be another threaded rod at the top so long as the bar holding the two halves apart has a pivot either end.

[Didge]

How much does the diff spread; I imagine you'd need an awful lot of force to distort it. Another question; exactly what do the shims do? Move the whole centre from left to right and vice versa? Is that how you set your backlash? thanks in advance

[goingbush]

How much does the diff spread; I imagine you'd need an awful lot of force to distort it. Another question; exactly what do the shims do? Move the whole centre from left to right and vice versa? Is that how you set your backlash? thanks in advance

Exactly, that is how the backlash is set.

The spreader only stretches the casing 0.3mm , enough to get the carrier in & preload the bearings.

I guess I could have made a better job of the spreader, its a bit big and a turnbuckle would have been better than the threaded bar. heres another view

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/671.jpg

[Didge]

Goingbush, thanks for the reply and that's a great spreader and absolutely fantastic photos. I can never get shots that good. Now, for the next question, what is preloading the bearings? Thanks in advance again; doing a good bit of learning here I am :)
cheers Gerald

[goingbush]

Goingbush, thanks for the reply and that's a great spreader and absolutely fantastic photos. I can never get shots that good. Now, for the next question, what is preloading the bearings? Thanks in advance again; doing a good bit of learning here I am :)
cheers Gerald

Hey Gerald, no probs. the two adjustments are Backlash & preload.
Preload simplistically means putting some tension on the bearings , like you do for wheel bearings, You do it in the Salsbury by spreading the housing .3mm onto a carrier that is shimmed to fit the gap & then releasing the spreader so that the housing squashes onto the bearings.

Truetrac & ARB are set up the same as far as backlash & preload, once you fit the TT your are done, where the ARB you still need to do the airlines etc. but apart from that you will learn a bit by reading the jeep thing
http://www.alljeep.com/tech/install/8.8_true_trac/8-8_true_trac.htm

cheers don

[Frenchie]

I noticed you trimmed up the dags on the bottom of the diff housing .

...and where did you get the nice diff cover?

(Yes I can read ARB, are they available at ARB stores in Aus?)

[Loubrey]

Yes, but seldom in stock. About a week's wait to get one... (Bought one to post overseas for a friend)

[goingbush]

...and where did you get the nice diff cover?

(Yes I can read ARB, are they available at ARB stores in Aus?)

Sold in USA as "ARB Dana 60 Diff Cover"
Even if you buy from ARB locally be careful & don't use the bolts supplied as they are imperial for the D60, you have to go to the Bolt Shop & buy some 10x1.5mm cap head screws to suit, The Salsbury is Metric.

plenty of beefed up covers to chose from depending on your flavour

dana 60 cover | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dana+60+cover&_sacat=0&_odkw=d60+cover&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313)

I like the ARB one because it has a horizontal filler hole & dipstick, you can pour oil straight in from a bottle. But it does annoy me being red, because I have heard myself thinking 'what a ******' when Im following a car with a painted red diff cover.

[Didge]

Goingbush, thanks again-= all makes sense now. So I'm guessing you use a digital vernier to measure 0.3mm?
As for the diff cover you could paint a smiley face on it or some evil black eyes
cheers Gerald

[Didge]

Well guys, after all the good advice I've received from you I've decided to pay someone to install the locker. Reason being is that after getting prices of $620 - $720, I've been quoted $300 - $400 from a diff specialist (all they do is diffs and drivetrains) in Kogarah, Sydney who say that their quoted price will be ample and the car will be in and out in one day and they'll also include a clean up and service on the locker I acquired from justinc on this forum. Thanks again for advice and suggestions and I learnt a lot in the process.
cheers Gerald