landrovers.... not what they used to be...

[Blknight.aus]

Ok Conclusive proof, the defenders with the **** bulges in the bonnet, or Fords as I refer to them are NOT defenders.

On my recent drive out to Emerald we passed something like 30 landies while I was at the wheel....

Defender drivers wave, Check, every single time AND I was in a disco.
Disco Drivers, Check, well mostly usually the D1s waved and occasionally the D2s.
Ford Drivers, Nope, Not a single one out of about 10.

Since Defender drivers wave and all...... :)

[scarry]

You answered your own question,they are Fords:p :wasntme:

BUT,they are the closest thing you will get to a fender out of the showroom today:)

[Sprint]

you didnt say you were coming out this way!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Does that mean that Isuzu Countys are not Land Rovers either? :o

But they wave!!!! (Even at waving RRc and D4s)

[random]

They just better not build that gay farmer , or have they already ? :(

[ugu80]

You answered your own question,they are Fords:p :wasntme:

I thought they were Tatas.

[digger]

I thought they were Tatas.

They can't be, because when I was a kid even my parents made me wave TA TA! :)

[Beckford]

Maybe the Puma's (Fords) are sick of Disco's (Taxi's) not waving.

I will keep waving at all LR badged vehicles! Big hand for series I, II, III, Defenders, Puma's (Fords) and Classic Range Rovers. 2 fingers for Disco's (Taxi's).

Did a run over the Blue Mountains Friday / Saturday. Got waves from everything except Disco's (Taxi's).

Where I grew up everyone waved at each other in any vehicle on local roads.....

Puma (Ford) Driver.

[Drover]

Ok Conclusive proof, the defenders with the **** bulges in the bonnet, or Fords as I refer to them are NOT defenders.

On my recent drive out to Emerald we passed something like 30 landies while I was at the wheel....

Defender drivers wave, Check, every single time AND I was in a disco.
Disco Drivers, Check, well mostly usually the D1s waved and occasionally the D2s.
Ford Drivers, Nope, Not a single one out of about 10.

Since Defender drivers wave and all...... :)


Bla Bla Bla........

[ramblingboy42]

you didnt say you were coming out this way!

yeah he did.............

[Grover-98]

I have always waved to other Land Rovers when driving in my D1... and now i wave in my L322... but i think i will stop waving from the Range Rover as most just look at me like i am an idiot :(

James.

[First90]

Hater gonna hate.

I wave to every Land Rover I pass no matter what the make in my puma 90. I was at emerald last weekend and had the pleasure of recovering a cruiser ute.

My first car was my fathers series II bla bla, we all have our stories. I just wanted a new Defender with some bells and whistles. Doesn't make me any less 'land rover'.

[Mick-Kelly]

Yep somehow i dont think anyone will be restoring any landrover product made since the begining of the 90's in 50 years time. Too much electrickery and rust in the post 90's models. I dont think you can really call them land rovers anymore. The only difference between a modern landy and a toyota, nissan etc. is the badge. What made them different and stand out from the crowd is long gone.

[rovercare]

Bla Bla Bla........

Ke - Blah Bla Blah With 30h!3. With Lyrics. - YouTube

[Rusnut]

Yep somehow i dont think anyone will be restoring any landrover product made since the begining of the 90's in 50 years time. Too much electrickery and rust in the post 90's models. I dont think you can really call them land rovers anymore. The only difference between a modern landy and a toyota, nissan etc. is the badge. What made them different and stand out from the crowd is long gone.

wif der fangle bits an bods

[Mick-Kelly]

Yep i just cant see a group of blokes standing around and leaning on an old wreck of a 2012 puma in some farmers barn getting misty eyed and then having to sleep in the dog house because they trailered it home to restore and their wives found out. These days the vehicles get traded in when the ash trays full and a farmer wouldnt own one (or couldnt afford one) anyway. Times have changed and people have changed as well. The days of the true land rover are long gone.

[slug_burner]

I suspect that in the same way as people use gearbox and tc adapters to get around the lack of supply or just to improve on perceived weaknesses, the new age restorers will take to the problems of electric bits with Arduino in hand or other cheap controller to manage all the electric bits. The problem will be the extremely well engineered mechanical components which once worn make the engines throw away items. As the assembly process moves away from bolt on panels the bodies will be a bit harder to make look ok as welding in a patch will not be as easy with more curves and spot welded joints in panels.

All the things we like about land rovers of days gone by are the things that don't make them very attractive to the modern vehicle buyer, they want a bit of modern electronics to get lots of km/ltr, hp and lb.ft as well as quiet cabs good a/c etc.

[Drover]

Who decides what the “true land rover” is and that “true land rover” is gone.
Cars, 4x4’s and motorbikes earn a place in our heart and that place is because we grow up with them and have all sorts of fun mischief in them.
I have had LR continuously since the mid 90’s and my old man had various series models before that.
My Son, now 17 tells me that my PUMA is a “out of date POS from a hundred years ago”, but to him anything not made in Japan is not worth talking about and guess what he and all his mates get excited about early Jap rockets that they want to buy and restore.
If you can’t embrace new idea’s and improvements and are so captured in the past, maybe you should stop using this wang-fangle-electronic-computerised internet thingy and write to each other instead, like you had to do in days of the “true Land Rovers”

[scarry]

The days of the true land rover are long gone.

And they are gradually going from a small boutique manufacturer with a couple of model vehicles to a large mainstream manufacturer.
But i suppose they have to do this to survive,and along the way,the perception of 'the true LR'is lost.
The mainstream younger generation see LR as different to what we see it,so as us 'older generation',i suppose we could be called,move on,the way we see LR,which is the original LR will go as well.

This is just what happens,things change,die out.

I asked one of the apprentices at work the other day who Ayrton Senna was,he had no idea.And he is a motor racing fan.Had heard of him,but didn't know who he was.
There aren't to many motor racing fans of the older generation that wouldn't know who(Senna) was.

This is another example of how things move on,change,etc.

[kenleyfred]

Who decides what the “true land rover” is and that “true land rover” is gone.
Cars, 4x4’s and motorbikes earn a place in our heart and that place is because we grow up with them and have all sorts of fun mischief in them.
I have had LR continuously since the mid 90’s and my old man had various series models before that.
My Son, now 17 tells me that my PUMA is a “out of date POS from a hundred years ago”, but to him anything not made in Japan is not worth talking about and guess what he and all his mates get excited about early Jap rockets that they want to buy and restore.
If you can’t embrace new idea’s and improvements and are so captured in the past, maybe you should stop using this wang-fangle-electronic-computerised internet thingy and write to each other instead, like you had to do in days of the “true Land Rovers”

Well said. I tire of people harping on about the Land Rovers of old. Yes they were/are good. I had one in the army 20 years ago. But in my opinion my current Defender is better in every way.
Kenley

[justinc]

Each to their own too, I am really enjoying my 1985 110, I drive lots of Defenders latest was a 2011 90 last week and to be honest really enjoy all of them, I choose an early isuzu county but to my mind any defender, 90 or 110, has character and is still a true landrover (Yes, even with a jap engine,too.).
Drove to the Tas east coast and back last night, still getting 11l/100 and just love the purr of that turbo 4BD1.:)

JC

[Mick-Kelly]

As an interesting perspective imagine for a moment that all of the land rovers prior to the td5 models never existed. All you have is td5 and PUMA. Now in that reality what is a land rover? what makes it different from a patrol, mitsubishi or land cruiser?
Without its heritage it is nothing special. The older models of 'true land rovers' are the source of the emotional value of modern land rovers. Without the ability to trade on the emotions intrinsically linked to the heritage of the brand they are just another vehicle. Sure they do a good job when stacked up against the other modern vehicles in their own way but they will never have that special indefinable element that makes them worthy as historical icons. No one will put a PUMA on a pedestal as a vehicle that did something unique or contributed to the development of the world. Its just another vehicle that gets traded off once the lease has run out. They will become second,third or fourth hand beaters until the cost of maintaining the complicated mechanical and electrical system becomes uneconomic when they will be relegated to scrap.

[PAT303]

I think all the puma knockers should come out of the closet and buy one,I'm on my 8th LR and the puma is the best,I spent the weekend in Perth and if I had a dollar everytime someone stared at my X-Tech it would have payed the fuel bill,I even had a doof doof driver say it's cool.New vehicles will never have the driving pleasure of a series,hearing the gears screach,having the floor under your feet reach 90 degree's after an hour and arriving wet when it rains but all defenders have that one thing that seperates them from all other vehicles,character. Pat

[PAT303]

As an interesting perspective imagine for a moment that all of the land rovers prior to the td5 models never existed. All you have is td5 and PUMA. Now in that reality what is a land rover? what makes it different from a patrol, mitsubishi or land cruiser?
Without its heritage it is nothing special. The older models of 'true land rovers' are the source of the emotional value of modern land rovers. Without the ability to trade on the emotions intrinsically linked to the heritage of the brand they are just another vehicle. Sure they do a good job when stacked up against the other modern vehicles in their own way but they will never have that special indefinable element that makes them worthy as historical icons. No one will put a PUMA on a pedestal as a vehicle that did something unique or contributed to the development of the world. Its just another vehicle that gets traded off once the lease has run out. They will become second,third or fourth hand beaters until the cost of maintaining the complicated mechanical and electrical system becomes uneconomic when they will be relegated to scrap.
You need to get over the electrical bit,it isn't that hard really.The Puma is special like all the ones before it simply because it is the latest vehicle that comes from a line of vehicles that started will the series one,park a willys and series one next to the latest wrangler and puma and you can see the family tree,only those two and the Porsche 911 can boast the same lineage,the likes of the ''new'' FJ or mini are just a joke.I'll bet the puma will be here for many years and people will keep them going just like all it's brothers and sisters. Pat

[uninformed]

Basing facts on waves, I just had a nice looking young lady wave from her new white 90 with black rims and muddies. Now if the new jap defenders are going to put more cute bums on seats then I say not only wave but high five also.






Then again it could have just been my good looks.

[juddy]

Ok Conclusive proof, the defenders with the **** bulges in the bonnet, or Fords as I refer to them are NOT defenders.

On my recent drive out to Emerald we passed something like 30 landies while I was at the wheel....

Defender drivers wave, Check, every single time AND I was in a disco.
Disco Drivers, Check, well mostly usually the D1s waved and occasionally the D2s.
Ford Drivers, Nope, Not a single one out of about 10.

Since Defender drivers wave and all...... :)

So drivers of the defender with a nice bulge in the bonnet, don't wave at disco drivers, I can see that, drive with your own bulge out front and you may get more than a wave.

[Mick-Kelly]

You need to get over the electrical bit,it isn't that hard really.The Puma is special like all the ones before it simply because it is the latest vehicle that comes from a line of vehicles that started will the series one,park a willys and series one next to the latest wrangler and puma and you can see the family tree,only those two and the Porsche 911 can boast the same lineage,the likes of the ''new'' FJ or mini are just a joke.I'll bet the puma will be here for many years and people will keep them going just like all it's brothers and sisters. Pat
I guess that is where i am different to the modern crowd. I have driven a PUMA and i have a 63 year old series one sitting in my garage two metres from where i am typing this. MY opinion is that the PUMA is no different to the new mini or FJ. Just a vehicle that tries to look like it shares styling with the old 'true' versions. I like the smell, hot floor. non synchro box and all weather interior of the old land rover. Its called character. I dont think the PUMA has any right to claim an association with those older vehicles. They are made in India or wherever and they are simply just another throw away car. In all honesty after driving a PUMA if someone gave it too me for free i would sell it. I have zero interest in them but i have all of the time in the world for anything leaf sprung wearing a land rover badge.

[justinc]

I guess that is where i am different to the modern crowd. I have driven a PUMA and i have a 63 year old series one sitting in my garage two metres from where i am typing this. MY opinion is that the PUMA is no different to the new mini or FJ. Just a vehicle that tries to look like it shares styling with the old 'true' versions. I like the smell, hot floor. non synchro box and all weather interior of the old land rover. Its called character. I dont think the PUMA has any right to claim an association with those older vehicles. They are made in India or wherever and they are simply just another throw away car. In all honesty after driving a PUMA if someone gave it too me for free i would sell it. I have zero interest in them but i have all of the time in the world for anything leaf sprung wearing a land rover badge.

Totally know where you are coming from too Mick, but I have to daily drive mine, and have no time or extra $ to have a resto project, BUT if I did, it would be a swb 2a diesel truck cab....:cool:

As I say, each to their own, I personally had an idea to buy a new 110 or 130 for partial work use, or an old 85 110 shell to 'restore' and use for everything. I chose the latter and glad I did. Saved me about $40K and I get to enjoy it without the humungous lease repayments, or other things...:angel:

I loved my 109 2a 2 1/4 BUT i couldn't live with it day in day out.

JC

[uninformed]

I had my SIII swb truck cab petrol for 2-3years as a daily driver work truck in the late 90's....it was fun but it was painful ;)

[PAT303]

I guess that is where i am different to the modern crowd. I have driven a PUMA and i have a 63 year old series one sitting in my garage two metres from where i am typing this. MY opinion is that the PUMA is no different to the new mini or FJ. Just a vehicle that tries to look like it shares styling with the old 'true' versions. I like the smell, hot floor. non synchro box and all weather interior of the old land rover. Its called character. I dont think the PUMA has any right to claim an association with those older vehicles. They are made in India or wherever and they are simply just another throw away car. In all honesty after driving a PUMA if someone gave it too me for free i would sell it. I have zero interest in them but i have all of the time in the world for anything leaf sprung wearing a land rover badge.

Come over where I live were you have transit times that measure in days and you'll change your mind about modern vehicles.The Puma is nothing like the FJ or mini. Pat

[Slunnie]

Maybe the Puma's (Fords) are sick of Disco's (Taxi's) not waving.

I will keep waving at all LR badged vehicles! Big hand for series I, II, III, Defenders, Puma's (Fords) and Classic Range Rovers. 2 fingers for Disco's (Taxi's).

Did a run over the Blue Mountains Friday / Saturday. Got waves from everything except Disco's (Taxi's).

Where I grew up everyone waved at each other in any vehicle on local roads.....

Puma (Ford) Driver.
Thats why I always wave from the luxury of my "Storm" to the Fords with a single finger. :D


As an interesting perspective imagine for a moment that all of the land rovers prior to the td5 models never existed. All you have is td5 and PUMA. Now in that reality what is a land rover? what makes it different from a patrol, mitsubishi or land cruiser?
Without its heritage it is nothing special. The older models of 'true land rovers' are the source of the emotional value of modern land rovers. Without the ability to trade on the emotions intrinsically linked to the heritage of the brand they are just another vehicle. Sure they do a good job when stacked up against the other modern vehicles in their own way but they will never have that special indefinable element that makes them worthy as historical icons. No one will put a PUMA on a pedestal as a vehicle that did something unique or contributed to the development of the world. Its just another vehicle that gets traded off once the lease has run out. They will become second,third or fourth hand beaters until the cost of maintaining the complicated mechanical and electrical system becomes uneconomic when they will be relegated to scrap.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that all LR enthusiasts approach LR from that perspective. The earlier models were irrelevant to me when I first became involved and my attraction to them is purely from a meccano point of view rather than anything else.


... drive with your own bulge out front and you may get more than a wave.
I like your thinking. :D

[patclan]

I love my Defender, 2010 built in the UK not India, old folk with your fear of electricity, got to love you don't we.... My car has flaws but I don't care, if I had another 55k to spend I would not get another one as I will have this one for a long long time.

The electricity and all that fandangled magical electronics stuff that runs through my car must be non existent seeing as if I had any it would be causing me nothing but trouble.

I love my Land Rover..

[Beckford]

I guess that is where i am different to the modern crowd. I have driven a PUMA and i have a 63 year old series one sitting in my garage two metres from where i am typing this. MY opinion is that the PUMA is no different to the new mini or FJ. Just a vehicle that tries to look like it shares styling with the old 'true' versions. I like the smell, hot floor. non synchro box and all weather interior of the old land rover. Its called character. I dont think the PUMA has any right to claim an association with those older vehicles. They are made in India or wherever and they are simply just another throw away car. In all honesty after driving a PUMA if someone gave it too me for free i would sell it. I have zero interest in them but i have all of the time in the world for anything leaf sprung wearing a land rover badge.

Incorrect. My Puma was made in England!

[Beckford]

Yep i just cant see a group of blokes standing around and leaning on an old wreck of a 2012 puma in some farmers barn getting misty eyed and then having to sleep in the dog house because they trailered it home to restore and their wives found out. These days the vehicles get traded in when the ash trays full and a farmer wouldnt own one (or couldnt afford one) anyway. Times have changed and people have changed as well. The days of the true land rover are long gone.

I agree that times have changed;

1. My wife would prefer me to be in my shed tinkering with my series I's or on a trip in my Puma, rather than be down the pub.

2. Puma's do not have ash trays. Smoking is now considered to be bad for you.

3. Puma's are cheaper than a Hilux's modified to the same specification.

4. What makes the Puma not a "True Land Rover"? They said similar things about the Classic Range Rover, which has had the single biggest impact on 4wd's in general.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have Land Rovers built in a number of era's starting from the 80".

Everything up to my most recent D4 acquisition can be re-built with regular hand tools and kept going with generic parts.

The D4 is an awsome vehicle, but I have great fears that it won't be able to be maintained as long as all the other Land Rovers in the collection.

[dullbird]

I have Land Rovers built in a number of era's starting from the 80".

Everything up to my most recent D4 acquisition can be re-built with regular hand tools and kept going with generic parts.

The D4 is an awsome vehicle,
but I have great fears that it won't be able to be maintained as long as all the other Land Rovers in the collection.


isn't that the point these days though...the car has to work long enough for you to say "yep it was a good car" but not long enough that you dont go out and buy another one.

[justinc]

I tell you what gets me worried echoing Dianas post, the D3 manual also has a sensor to detect clutch pedal travel/ throw. IF you replace ANY hydraulic cylinders OR the clutch as a unit, then guess what??? it has to be recalibrated to avoid lights and bells and warning messages and worst case a 'special programs, power reduced' fault. Coupled with the same for the steering angle sensor which if faulted stops EAS functions and DSC/HDC/TC/etc. I am over this degree of electronic control in a so called offroad vehicle.

It is a fantastic performer, on and offroad, and the degree of engineering is astounding but COME ON, these 2 little issues are enough to get it flat trayed to a dealer from wherever:mad::mad:

theres my 2c rant:)

My advice to ALL D3/4/RRS owners is GET A MSV FAULTMATE and take it everywhere, especially on touring holidays.

JC

[Yorkshire_Jon]

...

My advice to ALL D3/4/RRS owners is GET A MSV FAULTMATE and take it everywhere, especially on touring holidays.

JC

And there's the rub. You wouldn't take a 50 yr old LR on a long trip without a toolbox, why then would you want

Sent using Forum Runner

[justinc]

And there's the rub. You wouldn't take a 50 yr old LR on a long trip without a toolbox, why then would you want

Sent using Forum Runner

I agree Jon, but some may not have grasped yet the degree in which the electronic tendrils have a grip on even basic operations of these modern vehicles.

I'm not knocking the engineering, it is amazing; just frustrating.

JC

[jakeslouw]

Another member of our ZA LRO forum has just taken his Solihull-built Puma Defender back and left it on the dealer floor. This is a LR veteran that has owned 300TDi, TD5 and Puma engine versions.

The problems experienced in South Africa (among others)

- diff problems
- major unfixable oil leaks (not minor LR territory markers!)
- skew chassis/suspension dimensions
- gearbox failures

Now it's fine if the vehicle has a 3 year warranty, but I think if the vehicle spends half the time in the workshop?

It would appear that the "colonies" should go back to self assembly via the CKD method?

[Yorkshire_Jon]

And there's the rub. You wouldn't take a 50 yr old LR on a long trip without a toolbox, why then would you want

Sent using Forum Runner

Not sure what happened to the rest of my post... It went something like this...

And there's the rub. You wouldn't take a 50 yr old LR on a long trip without a toolbox, why then would you want to take a modern 4x4 away without the appropriate diagnostic toolkit? Not doing so is just being ill-prepared.

The technology should be embraced, it is not the cars that need to step backwards, it's us DIY mechanics that need to step forward.

As for the cars being revolutionary or not, the TD5 engine was, so too was the D3. The Puma and D4 are not because they are updates of game changers. That said they are all important vehicles in their own right.

One thing that does concern me though and LR need to take note of this... The Pumas chew through Diffs because of the way they are manufactured & the new 3.0L engine is chewing turbos and more worryingly crank-shafts much, much too readily and frequently.

J

Sent using Forum Runner

[ADMIRAL]

The LR vehicles are no orphans.

The modern vehicles are loaded with electronics, not just the 4WD's. Try changing the brakes pads on a modern sedan with stability control. Most have to be disabled at the ECU before any work can commence.

Welcome to the modern world.

[PAT303]

I used to work with a bloke in Kalgoorlie who bought a new i30 which won't select gears if a light globe blows,twice he had it towed for that reason. Pat

[carjunkieanon]

Ok Conclusive proof, the defenders with the **** bulges in the bonnet, or Fords as I refer to them are NOT defenders.

On my recent drive out to Emerald we passed something like 30 landies while I was at the wheel....

Defender drivers wave, Check, every single time AND I was in a disco.
Disco Drivers, Check, well mostly usually the D1s waved and occasionally the D2s.
Ford Drivers, Nope, Not a single one out of about 10.

Since Defender drivers wave and all...... :)



I don't buy it Dave,

I drive a '03 Disco 2 and wave at everybody. Rarely get waves from pre bonnet bulge Defenders.

Have had some great waves from bonnet bulge defeers - and some good chats on the side of the road. One guy in North Sydney who was absolutely stoked to be owning a Land Rover.

[kenleyfred]

What about the Queen. She gets about in a very modern untraditional Range Rover.

And she waves to everybody.

[weeds]

you were driving a.....................................D1, i drive a defender and never wave at discos, maybe i should buy a puma

[Sue]

Ok Conclusive proof, the defenders with the **** bulges in the bonnet, or Fords as I refer to them are NOT defenders.

On my recent drive out to Emerald we passed something like 30 landies while I was at the wheel....

Defender drivers wave, Check, every single time AND I was in a disco.
Disco Drivers, Check, well mostly usually the D1s waved and occasionally the D2s.
Ford Drivers, Nope, Not a single one out of about 10.

Since Defender drivers wave and all...... :)

I drive a Puma and I wave..

but maybe I've yet to be affected by the snobbery of people like you who like to put themselves on some sort of fake pedestal by making ridiculous statements like Puma's are not Defenders..

The only thing that statements like that is going to achieve is segregation and animosity between older and newer Defender drivers.. and what a waste of time that is because once the 'old' Defenders were new too.. and I have to wonder if the owners of those vehicles were also ridiculed and snubbed because they were fortunate enough to have a newer version of the same brand of car.. :(

[gromit]

The whole approach to owning a car has changed.
Most people only keep them for a few years and they are now more worried about how 'green' it is and whether it has the creature comforts they demand.

If I go back to my Dad's first new car purchase it was effectively several years salary to pay for it, today it would be maybe 6-8months salary to buy a new car. The way to sell them 'cheaply' is to mass produce them and get them into the wreckers asap.
I run my business vehicle for at least 8 years (4 with me then 4 with the wife) but most new car purchasers aim to update them in 3 years or less.

Because you don't have to fix things any longer (just chuck it away and buy another) there is a trend towards people being less practical. Because they then have to pay people to fix their car they want to buy a new one with a warranty rather than fix up the old one (plus there is the element of 'keeping up with the neighbours')

I read an article the other day written by Jay Leno. A friend of his who has a stable of exotic classics told his son that he would buy him whatever car he wanted (money was not an issue). He asked for a Prius ! His reasoning was that it had good ipod connectivity !!!

Basically the car used to be a 'durable' and for many years now it has been a 'consumable'.

Our older Land Rover are 'durables' and it's cost effective for us to keep them running. I'm positive that overall they are 'greener' than most new vehicles because they can have a very long life.
'Green' nowadays means low emissions, but quickly scrapped and somehow people forget the emissions creating the car (especially the batteries) and the fact that they are scrapped in a very short time then another car is purchased with the associated emissions to produce it.

I think the latest Defenders are great vehicles, I'd love to own one but will stick to older Land Rovers that I can maintain myself. My business car will remain a 'consumable' product.



Colin

[dobbo]

I drive a Puma and I wave..

but maybe I've yet to be affected by the snobbery of people like you who like to put themselves on some sort of fake pedestal by making ridiculous statements like Puma's are not Defenders..

The only thing that statements like that is going to achieve is segregation and animosity between older and newer Defender drivers.. and what a waste of time that is because once the 'old' Defenders were new too.. and I have to wonder if the owners of those vehicles were also ridiculed and snubbed because they were fortunate enough to have a newer version of the same brand of car.. :(


Please don't associate your Ford powered monstrosity with my Land Rover, the only things they have in common is the overall shape and the now (thanks to the Puma) tarnished badge.

[olbod]

One thing that does concern me though and LR need to take note of this... The Pumas chew through Diffs because of the way they are manufactured

J

Sent using Forum Runner[/QUOTE]


G'day
Havent heard that they have a diff problem.
If that is true, would a pair of ARB diff locks cure it ?

Cheers.

Robert.

[ugu80]

Maybe people that don't like Pumas are just jealous that they don't have big bulges. Its bulge envy.

[dobbo]

Maybe people that don't like Pumas are just jealous that they don't have big bulges. Its bulge envy.
45741
Who needs a codpiece when you have a litre of displacement per cylinder, a horn and a tree on your roofrack?

[isuzutoo-eh]

If I shouldn't wave to Puma owners because their Landy has a Ford heart, should I be waving to owners of new Ford Territories since they have an LR heart?

[goingbush]

So are you only going to wave at 50% of the Series 2 or 3 Landrovers you see because the other 50% has a holden engine, what a lot of bollocks !!

[ADMIRAL]

If I shouldn't wave to Puma owners because their Landy has a Ford heart, should I be waving to owners of new Ford Territories since they have an LR heart?

I would not get too carried away with that logic. The cross fitting of powerplants these days, is pretty much across the board. I doubt you will see Merc. owners acknowledging SSanyong's, or Jeeps, and now you have Subaru and Toyota using shared technology.

[Slunnie]

Ibut maybe I've yet to be affected by the snobbery of people like you who like to put themselves on some sort of fake pedestal by making ridiculous statements like Puma's are not Defenders..

The only thing that statements like that is going to achieve is segregation and animosity between older and newer Defender drivers.. and what a waste of time that is because once the 'old' Defenders were new too.. and I have to wonder if the owners of those vehicles were also ridiculed and snubbed because they were fortunate enough to have a newer version of the same brand of car.. :(

Fake Pedestal is just the sheer fact that owners call it a Puma rather than a Defender. I don't recall any other incidence of this within the Land Rover range or any other manufacturer. I don't recall other Defenders, Discovery's, Rangies or Freelanders being called purely a 200tdi, 300tdi, V8, Tempest, Storm, TD5, 4BD1, Isuzu's or anything like that. Land Rover don't even call it a Puma, so why do owners need that distinction which goes above and beyond and totally unlike any other in the range? Fake Pedestal perhaps? So perhaps lets start by just calling it what it is..... a Defender. :p


as I get into my Storm now and drive into town to wave to all of the Pumas!

[dobbo]

So are you only going to wave at 50% of the Series 2 or 3 Landrovers you see because the other 50% has a holden engine, what a lot of bollocks !!


Engine origins have nothing to do with it, reliability, livability, longevity and functionality have. The Puma has very little of the above and therefore are being shunned out of anywhere but the metropolitan areas by any sane persons because of this. Land rover had the potential to build the most reliable Defender ever built complete with there own (albeit BMW designed) euro emmissions spec engine, but by going with the Ford transit engine they altered many of the essential designs that made a Land Rover so versitile and practical for thousand of the out of suburbia applications. Just because it looks like a 110, doesn't mean it is. It's an SUV, not a light agricultural and ultility vehicle for use on farms in which a Land Rover was and is still supposed to be. Anyone wanting to prove me wrong is more than welcome to put their new Puma up against my real Land Rover, I'd like to see the aftermath of an unmodified Puma's driveline and body after herding animals and pulling stumps out of the ground all day. :D more to the point where the hell can I mount a rear PTO on a stock standard Puma to run a slasher?

[Slunnie]

:D more to the point where the hell can I mount a rear PTO on a stock standard Puma to run a slasher?

Do you do contract work? :D

[dobbo]

Do you do contract work? :D

Buy a few sheep instead of a dog that looks like one and you wouldn't have to ask me that question. ;)

Give us a call when your in Sydney next, it'd be good to catch up over a bottle or ten


Saying that who's the bloke who sells his LT95 PTO drive (to power a slasher) then buys a farm?

[Slunnie]

... :(

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Fake Pedestal is just the sheer fact that owners call it a Puma rather than a Defender. I don't recall any other incidence of this within the Land Rover range or any other manufacturer. I don't recall other Defenders, Discovery's, Rangies or Freelanders being called purely a 200tdi, 300tdi, V8, Tempest, Storm, TD5, 4BD1, Isuzu's or anything like that. Land Rover don't even call it a Puma, so why do owners need that distinction which goes above and beyond and totally unlike any other in the range? Fake Pedestal perhaps? So perhaps lets start by just calling it what it is..... a Defender. :p


as I get into my Storm now and drive into town to wave to all of the Pumas!Well actually, the VM diesel powered Rangies were caled VM Rangies (by the users) and they are generally considered a very poor model, probably by the same people who call a 2.4 and 2.2 Defender a Puma.

BTW I'm about to start calling my Disco a Duratorque after the Ford Dagenham built engine. Is everyone O.K. with that?

[DeanoH]

Well it would apear that Daves original observation ............'landrovers .... not what they used to be ...' strikes a chord with many.
Putting aside the issue of who waves to who and why/why not, I feel this issue begs the question of, well.............'landrovers.... what should they be ?'

At the risk of alienating the complete RR/Disco/Freelander membership of AULRO, not a small achievement in itself, I would suggest the definative LR would be of series ancestry. To wit, the Defender.

Body shape would remain the traditional slab fronted box with obvious improvements like panels that actually fit together and effective weather/sound proofing. Spiffy interior like from that 'special edition' SX, VX or whatever it was from last year.
How about the Iveco engine/drivetrain from their constant 4WD Iveco Daily ? 170 hp/400 Nm 3 litre common rail diesel matched to a 6 speed all synchro gearbox with dual range (4 speed) transfer case WITH diff locks both ends as well a the middle!
Suspension, probably long coil springs but not opposed to long semi-eliptical leaves.
Wheels and tyres 16" capable of taking 285/75's without body modification.

This would be my ideal defender, what would yours be ?

Deano:)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

My idea of an appropriate defender, It would be at least 100mm - 200mm wider in the interior (like the 6X6 perentie).
Drivers door would be longer, so the "A" pillar was behind your shoulder.
the mudguards would be moved outwards leaving more room in the engine bay for batteries etc.
The chassis rails would be tapered to enhance the turning circle but allow the choice of under-floor mounted spare or long range fuel tank in the rear.
the combination heater/demister/air con would be mounted in the engine bay and ducted to the vents on the regular dash (not slung underneath)
The station wagon, would have seating that lay flat like the seating in the D4.
it would be powered by an efficient diesel of about 3 to 3.5 litres, with the power and performance like the current SDV6.
suspension would be optionable, full EAS, coil and even a coil front long leaf rear option in the cab chassis model.
body shell, should be enhanced occupant protection, ~ ROP equivalent.

[dobbo]

This is what they still should be (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-2-2a/148370-attachments-equipment-series-land-rovers.html)


That 3 point linkage and PTO would make a defender very versatile

[Lotz-A-Landies]

This is what they still should be (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-2-2a/148370-attachments-equipment-series-land-rovers.html)


That 3 point linkage and PTO would make a defender very versatileWot like the UniMog

http://www.unimogs.co.uk/showcaseimg/display/29c-d.jpg
http://www.unimogs.co.uk/showcaseimg/display/41a-d.jpg
http://www.unimogs.co.uk/showcaseimg/display/7a-d.jpg

[juddy]

This is what they still should be (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-2-2a/148370-attachments-equipment-series-land-rovers.html)


That 3 point linkage and PTO would make a defender very versatile

Thing is it was available from 1960, but last appeared on the Land Rover price list in June 1966, so not a big seller, the one in the picture was hand operated too...

[PAT303]

Engine origins have nothing to do with it, reliability, livability, longevity and functionality have. The Puma has very little of the above and therefore are being shunned out of anywhere but the metropolitan areas by any sane persons because of this. Land rover had the potential to build the most reliable Defender ever built complete with there own (albeit BMW designed) euro emmissions spec engine, but by going with the Ford transit engine they altered many of the essential designs that made a Land Rover so versitile and practical for thousand of the out of suburbia applications. Just because it looks like a 110, doesn't mean it is. It's an SUV, not a light agricultural and ultility vehicle for use on farms in which a Land Rover was and is still supposed to be. Anyone wanting to prove me wrong is more than welcome to put their new Puma up against my real Land Rover, I'd like to see the aftermath of an unmodified Puma's driveline and body after herding animals and pulling stumps out of the ground all day. :D more to the point where the hell can I mount a rear PTO on a stock standard Puma to run a slasher?
Coming from a bloke who lives in suburbia;). Pat

[solmanic]

I'm glad my Puma Defender is not like my old Series III, or even either of my previous Td5 Defenders.

And for the record, I wave at anything the same shape as me.

[dobbo]

Thing is it was available from 1960, but last appeared on the Land Rover price list in June 1966, so not a big seller, the one in the picture was hand operated too...


Perhaps if it had an engine driven hydraulic pump on it, it would have sold. Remember these cars didn't have power assisted steering, the new ones do.

If a Ford powered Defender could be used as a farm implement using Land Rover supplied parts and accessories (like you used to be able to buy on a series) would there still be a market for them, or would their cheese drivelines and lowrider styled gearbox sitting 2 inches below the chassis rails (Is this actually a Land Rover first on any of the models) render them useless? Is the Defender destined to be remembered as being a cult vehicle, a vehicle having a proud military history, (then when they became usless to the worlds armed forces due to crap electrics and a dodgey Ford engine transplant and before mentioned weak driveline) or will it be remembered as being used as a Toorak tractor to cart Latte sippling soccer mums around the urban jungle.


Ladies and Gentlemen, we need not the Posh Spice inspired **** machines of today with panoramic roofs, 22 inch Chromies and the smell of real dead animal skin on a $8000 interior, we need a vehicle that will take us to see the animals, let the Cheetahs **** on our heads as they climb over the Sarafi roof. Replace the 22inch continental tyres and wheels with 7.50 R16 bartreads on steelies, I don't want automated systems telling me how to drive, wipe my arse or changing gear for me, I want a big diesel, with a real gearbox, and simple mechanics that wont break every 5 minutes but when they do can get fixed without the aid of a computer, I can live with leaf springs and drum brakes and a crackly radio. I don't need Leather, chrome and woodgrain at my finger tips, instead, I need a large fuel tank and a winch, a few spare tyres and a network of dealers that can service my mechanically simple vehicle anywhere I choose to go. When you realise this, and discover that you cannot any longer buy a brand new series or a real 110, you do what I do and don't give up on the dream, just walk out of the Land Rover dealer go and buy either a low spec Dmax or Colorado. It may not be as capable offroad as my County or D2 but I can get parts and services in any major town in Australia, and is everything a Defender in this country needs to and should be. And I have an air conditioner that works. With my spare coin and the money I am saving from service costs, I am looking for a tractor to use on my (as Pat303 states, suburban block)

[dobbo]

Coming from a bloke who lives in suburbia;). Pat

You choose to live in that ***** of a place don't blame me.

[TimNZ]

Perhaps if it had an engine driven hydraulic pump on it, it would have sold. Remember these cars didn't have power assisted steering, the new ones do.

If a Ford powered Defender could be used as a farm implement using Land Rover supplied parts and accessories (like you used to be able to buy on a series) would there still be a market for them, or would their cheese drivelines and lowrider styled gearbox sitting 2 inches below the chassis rails (Is this actually a Land Rover first on any of the models) render them useless? Is the Defender destined to be remembered as being a cult vehicle, a vehicle having a proud military history, (then when they became usless to the worlds armed forces due to crap electrics and a dodgey Ford engine transplant and before mentioned weak driveline) or will it be remembered as being used as a Toorak tractor to cart Latte sippling soccer mums around the urban jungle.


Ladies and Gentlemen, we need not the Posh Spice inspired **** machines of today with panoramic roofs, 22 inch Chromies and the smell of real dead animal skin on a $8000 interior, we need a vehicle that will take us to see the animals, let the Cheetahs **** on our heads as they climb over the Sarafi roof. Replace the 22inch continental tyres and wheels with 7.50 R16 bartreads on steelies, I don't want automated systems telling me how to drive, wipe my arse or changing gear for me, I want a big diesel, with a real gearbox, and simple mechanics that wont break every 5 minutes but when they do can get fixed without the aid of a computer, I can live with leaf springs and drum brakes and a crackly radio. I don't need Leather, chrome and woodgrain at my finger tips, instead, I need a large fuel tank and a winch, a few spare tyres and a network of dealers that can service my mechanically simple vehicle anywhere I choose to go. When you realise this, and discover that you cannot any longer buy a brand new series or a real 110, you do what I do and don't give up on the dream, just walk out of the Land Rover dealer go and buy either a low spec Dmax or Colorado. It may not be as capable offroad as my County or D2 but I can get parts and services in any major town in Australia, and is everything a Defender in this country needs to and should be. And I have an air conditioner that works. With my spare coin and the money I am saving from service costs, I am looking for a tractor to use on my (as Pat303 states, suburban block)

So what do you suggest we do? Just not buy one because they don't meet your specifications?? Perhaps you should pitch your ideas to JLR, there's no point in whinging at us, it's JLR that design the vehicles. Who know's, you might get lucky, Posh's contract could be up soon and there might be an opening for you. :)

Regards,

Tim

[uninformed]

the sooner people stop referring to them as "Puma"s the better...not only is it segregating, its causing all sorts of confusion in other areas, causing some people to complain about threads being derailed, when, in fact it is the clearing up of confusion that is derailing due to the bloody Puma lableing...

or should I just call mine a Gemini Series II

[PAT303]

You choose to live in that ***** of a place don't blame me.

Sorry mate It just makes me laugh when city people act country.By the way you can't buy the the vehicle you described because it doesn't exist,having come from series LR's I would not have enjoyed my across the center trip and back at Xmas or my 13hr return trip to Perth last week or my 12 hr return trip to Broome in four weeks or my 5 day return trip to Darwin in 8 weeks that my swiss cheese drivetrain,break down every 5 mins,low gearbox hanging,can't fix in the bush,no one wants to work on,can't herd cattle,non stump pulling TDCi aka puma has done,but if you want to do all those things on bar treads with a plow on the front and slasher on the back with no air con in summer be my guest. Pat

[PAT303]

Just to add my TDCi hand brake drum,the lowest point on a defenders drivetrain sits 20mm lower than my Tdi's HB drum,I don't know where you got 2'',your mate down the pub?,the P38a diff in the TDCi has 240mm of clearance but the Sals in the Tdi has only 220mm and it runs 34'' tyres but anyway we won't let the facts get in the way of a good story. Pat

[dobbo]

Sorry mate It just makes me laugh when city people act country.By the way you can't buy the the vehicle you described because it doesn't exist,having come from series LR's I would not have enjoyed my across the center trip and back at Xmas or my 13hr return trip to Perth last week or my 12 hr return trip to Broome in four weeks or my 5 day return trip to Darwin in 8 weeks that my swiss cheese drivetrain,break down every 5 mins,low gearbox hanging,can't fix in the bush,no one wants to work on,can't herd cattle,non stump pulling TDCi aka puma has done,but if you want to do all those things on bar treads with a plow on the front and slasher on the back with no air con in summer be my guest. Pat


Ok I'll admit it, yours is bigger, shame it's not in the correct anotomical place
;)

[inside]

Defender drivers wave, Check, every single time AND I was in a disco.
Disco Drivers, Check, well mostly usually the D1s waved and occasionally the D2s.
Ford Drivers, Nope, Not a single one out of about 10.
Seems to me the Puma drivers may be more discerning. Now we need to track down these Disco waving Defender drivers and have a word to them about "the rules".

[DeanoH]

......................I am looking for a tractor to use on my ...........................

A good idea.

Whilst it was a good idea to have a combination tractor/utility vehicle back in post war 1948 England, manafacturing has moved on. There are actually companys that produce tractors now. The neccessity to have a belt pully on the back of a Land Rover is no more. The provision of a roof as standard was definitely an improvement as the desire for more comfortable 4WD'ing took hold. And so it goes.

4WD vehicles may have evolved to SUV/Toorak Tractors with a degree of robustness/reliability/complexity that is enough to make a diehard off road enthusiast throw up but unfortunately that's the market as percieved by the major players.

With a bit of luck Tata won't be 'waving goodbye' to the people who actually want a 4WD with off road capability and will corner the market in this area. I live in hope. What they don't need to do is build a tractor.

Deano:)

[PAT303]

Ok I'll admit it, yours is bigger, shame it's not in the correct anotomical place
;)

Your the one doing all the chest beating. Pat

[rick130]

[snip]

or should I just call mine a Gemini Series II

:lol2:

[Mick-Kelly]

I think what ****es people off is the complete redundancy of the newer vehicle systems. Can anyone point out to me how a 'puma' is in any way a functionally better tool than a 'county' Land Rover? Yet the puma is massively more complicated and completely beyond home servicing by the average person with an intricate electrical system and a price tag beyond the reach of its target audience. These unneeded extra complications make the vehicle far more susceptible to a trip ending component failure. The target audience of the Defenders ie. farmers and military will not touch a puma with a barge poll and could not afford to anyway. It is now in the world of the tourer style 4wd similar to the landcruiser and patrol. As such it is (in my opinion) as removed from a real land rover (leaf spring) as the current 200 series cruiser is from the old FJ's. I believe a well know principal applies to anything claiming to be a real landrover and that is K.I.S.S.

[rick130]

I think what ****es people off is the complete redundancy of the newer vehicle systems. Can anyone point out to me how a 'puma' is in any way a functionally better tool than a 'county' Land Rover?
[snip]


Reduced exhaust emissions have foisted the newer engines on us Mick, that's what is really pushing most development these days.

[newhue]

well it's interesting the original mud chucker's series is broken down and resting in the front yard, and perhaps has been for some time now.

I'm one of those pathetic Defender drivers who bought new because he didn't have the skills, time, space or tools to rebuild a worn out legend. It makes no difference to me if mine stops no matter what era, it's getting towed.

I once ment a long term landy nut who walked from Land Rover to Nissan when the the Isuzu (sounds land rover) motor was replaced with the Tdi. Back then it was too gutless but the Tdi's sold and now are looked upon favourably.

One thing coming from this post, I don't feel like waving at anyone presently. This banter is like a slow creeping cancer, just like engine emissions are, but eventually it becomes a fact of life.

[Blknight.aus]

tell you what nue hue...

IF a puma makes it to 33+ years old and then basically unmodified does a cape trip while lugging all the tooling, parts and oils to support about a 10 Vehicle cape trip come and talk to me...

lets make it interesting, you have to start from ipswich and do the first 1400 odd Km on filtered and Dewatered vege oil with 3 teeth missing from the transfer case intermediate gear

and FYI, the series vehicle your talking about still runs fine... its been pulled off the road because it needs repairs done to its brakes and the gearbox seals need doing because after the 3 years and about 50K Km I've had it for the grease is leaking out. (can you even run the ford gearbox on grease?)


skills, time, space or tools to rebuild a worn out legend.

but at least you can rebuild them.....

[Sue]

tell you what nue hue...

IF a puma makes it to 33+ years old and then basically unmodified does a cape trip while lugging all the tooling, parts and oils to support about a 10 Vehicle cape trip come and talk to me...

lets make it interesting, you have to start from ipswich and do the first 1400 odd Km on filtered and Dewatered vege oil with 3 teeth missing from the transfer case intermediate gear

and FYI, the series vehicle your talking about still runs fine... its been pulled off the road because it needs repairs done to its brakes and the gearbox seals need doing because after the 3 years and about 50K Km I've had it for the grease is leaking out. (can you even run the ford gearbox on grease?)



but at least you can rebuild them.....

Seriously.. why would he or anyone want to do that?

To prove a point.. ?? I think not.. it's much nicer to just get in the car turn it on, know it's going to work and get you to where you want to go without the worry, stress and hassle.. it may make you feel superior because your 30 year old car can or has done this but it doesn't raise you in my eye's or probably any one else's..

And for the record.. I don't care how old or how new someone's car is.. I like Defenders.. all of them and refuse to discriminate on account of car age... :)

[gromit]

Back to my earlier post....cars are now a 'consumable' rather than a 'durable' item and attitudes to driving have changed. Comfort & ipod connectivity are far more important than how long the vehicle will last or how practical it is.

The World is constantly changing.
Us older vehicle owners are 'living in the past' but hey, we're having fun doing it, our motoring costs are probably much lower that someone running a new 4WD and recycling older vehicles is 'green'.

It doesn't matter whether it's an original Land Rover, a BMW Land Rover, a Ford Land Rover or a Tata Land Rover it's still a Land Rover. If they were 'still making them like they used to' they would have gone out of business years ago......


Colin

[juddy]

Seriously.. why would he or anyone want to do that?

To prove a point.. ?? I think not.. it's much nicer to just get in the car turn it on, know it's going to work and get you to where you want to go without the worry, stress and hassle.. it may make you feel superior because your 30 year old car can or has done this but it doesn't raise you in my eye's or probably any one else's..

And for the record.. I don't care how old or how new someone's car is.. I like Defenders.. all of them and refuse to discriminate on account of car age... :)

I think thats a very good point Sue, I go out side turn the key and my Defender starts and drives first time, I go out side turn the key and the Series Land Rover never works ( until i have spent hours on the dam thing getting covered in oil ) not really practical for day to day life...... Will the Puma start first time in 30 years? going on the last 30/40/50/60 years probably not, but who cares, it works now and thats what matters........

Non the less just because the series land rover never works,does not for one second mean i must have a hate for them, there a old vehicle and as such cant be as reliable as a new vehicle, ( and so far in my own experience that as been the case ), be it a old Land Rover or any other old car, time, and expertise are required to keep them going, unfortunately not everyone as the knowledge, and more so in modern day life neither the time to do so......

[solmanic]

Reading a lot of these posts about how simpler is better - maybe those people should be lobbying Iveco to import the Massif.

[PAT303]

I think what ****es people off is the complete redundancy of the newer vehicle systems. Can anyone point out to me how a 'puma' is in any way a functionally better tool than a 'county' Land Rover? Yet the puma is massively more complicated and completely beyond home servicing by the average person with an intricate electrical system and a price tag beyond the reach of its target audience. These unneeded extra complications make the vehicle far more susceptible to a trip ending component failure. The target audience of the Defenders ie. farmers and military will not touch a puma with a barge poll and could not afford to anyway. It is now in the world of the tourer style 4wd similar to the landcruiser and patrol. As such it is (in my opinion) as removed from a real land rover (leaf spring) as the current 200 series cruiser is from the old FJ's. I believe a well know principal applies to anything claiming to be a real landrover and that is K.I.S.S.

The TDCi is one of the easiest vehicles I've ever serviced,you don't need so much as a rag to clean up afterwoulds,intricate electrical system?,like dobbo you should find the facts instead of my mate down the pub said,functionally better,my oath it is,like I've already posted you,me and dobbo should cross the center and we'll see how good a shape you two are in on the other side,farmers and the military in the UK do use the TDCi to do what they do,the King off the road Landcruiser is the looser in all this as farmers and the mines etc aren't using them as much and are changing to other makes and the TDCi defender is removed from the leaf sprung LR's because this is 2012 not 1960. Pat

[juddy]

Maybe if someone really hates a particular land rover model, then they should direct there issues to Land Rover, or set up there own I HATE THE LAND ROVER PUMA Facebook page. or twitter account, just imaging the amount of friends you would get then...

This Forum should embrace the Whole Brand!!!

[wrinklearthur]

Hi All

Me? well I build what I need from parts here and there.
Just gone in halves financially with another bloke with my first TD5 venture.
At about 230,000 Klm's it needs;
Head gasket and possibly a new head and hopefully not a complete motor,
Flanges and maybe axles as well,
Wheel bearings and seals,
Door frames rebuilding, all five need doing as it's a five door SW,
Dent in the roof needs working out, pulling the head lining down will be a pain,
Front seats need new cushions and seat covers,
A cut and polish, with some TLC on the interior.

Should come up good.

So what I save on depreciation by not buying new, more than pays for any repairs I do on my vehicles and with enough left over to throw at the real expense in my life - my house!!
Decrepit.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=45765&stc=1&d=1334276058)
.

[olbod]

With regard to the late model Defender with the 2.4 Ford Transit engine,
phew, If I owned one it would be the Defender and I might yet as I am looking hard at the 2 door hardtop for a tourer expedition thingy. When I ask a question here I refer to it as a Puma, ta da, because everyone knows straight up what I am referring too. Its that simple.
While we are here discussing the Puma, can anyone tell me about the weak diffs and whether an ARB locker or better still an Ashcroft, if he makes one, will cure the problem ? or if it is the CWP that lets go ?
One more, is there any diagnostic software available for this thingo, like there is for others like the faultmate and nanacom stuff.

Like them ( Puma ) or not, it is, along with the 110's and Defenders with other donks, still the best looking 4x4 that has ever been built, so there, eh.

Cheers.

Robert.

PS: I will read up in the Defender area about lots of stuff but as we are here I just thought I would ask. Ta.

[dobbo]

The TDCi is one of the easiest vehicles I've ever serviced,you don't need so much as a rag to clean up afterwoulds,intricate electrical system?,like dobbo you should find the facts instead of my mate down the pub said,functionally better,my oath it is,like I've already posted you,me and dobbo should cross the center and we'll see how good a shape you two are in on the other side,farmers and the military in the UK do use the TDCi to do what they do,the King off the road Landcruiser is the looser in all this as farmers and the mines etc aren't using them as much and are changing to other makes and the TDCi defender is removed from the leaf sprung LR's because this is 2012 not 1960. Pat


Make a challenge, how about we do it in blknights Fozzy, and you in your Puma run both vehicles running on environmentally friendly WVO

[PAT303]

And that prooves what exactly???,but yes we'll do the Gunbarrell,me in the TDCi and you two in the leaf sprung series,do you know what corrigations are?,don't worry you will.Tell me,how many K's in outback Oz have you done?,where have you been and what did you do?,I'm only asking because like many many others on here I've done lots in rubbish vehicles like the Tdi,rover V8,TDCi and that most evil of all vehicles,the electric everything toorak tractor,the one and only Range Rover.Oh and the puma,sorry TDCi is enviromentally friendly,thats what all that scary stuff under the bonnet is. Pat

[rovercare]

Ok... lets be definative about this.

theres lots of different schools of getting fuel from your dieso tank into your combustion chamber. theres CAV pumps, VE pumps, Direct injection, indirect injection, common rail, unit injection, hydraulically actuated injection, electrically controlled injection, hydraulically actuated electronically controlled injection and now total electronic common rail injection along with some hybrid stuff like mechanically actuated electronically controlled injection. And I haven't even gotten round to thinking about filtration and fuel lift techniques.

But lets break it down and keep it simple at the end of the day theres 2 common ways of defining what type of diesel you have a mechanically injected engine or an electronically injected engine.

So whats the fuss? Theres an inherent miss trust of electronic stuff on stuff thats ment to be reliable and why? personally I blame bill gates and windows. If hed managed to actually get a computer stable in the first place people would probably be more receptive of them.

I know, I can hear you ranting Whats your point?

ITs actually easier to fix an electronic diesel engine than it is a mechanical one. you just need to be carrying the right gear.

Wait, no, stop dont even think about going the line of "But Dave, your recent trip to purgatory has left your brain addled we never had to carry specialist gear to fix the old engines." actually yes you did if you wanted to fix some of the problems you could have encountered.

dont believe me? ok lets break down a diesel injection system.

To start with generically whats the injection system do.

1. it raises the pressure of the fuel to allow atomization upon injection
2. it decides when to inject the fuel
3. it injects a predetermined quantity of fuel as required by the conditions of speed and load on the engine.

so if you want to do that mechanically you need a very fine tolerance pump, some form of mechanical timing device and a mechanical metering device which means lots of springs, levers, cams, balancing acts and high pressure fittings as well as the obligatory fine tolerance injectors. and if any of that went seriously west you'd need the right specialist gear to setup your pump again after you put it all back together. Spring scales, micrometers, Depth gauges, a pump calibration rack, spill timer tube, Pump aligning tool

and if you want to do that electronically you need about the same but you can do away with a heap of the fine tolerance parts, the balancing acts, cams and depending on which injection method you use you can off load the fine tolerance pump because it becomes part of the injector itself then you replace all of this with a couple of sensors and a computer, hereafter referred to as the ECU. and if it went west youd need a full suite of electronics repair gear to have a hope at repairing it cro, multimeter, logic probe, clean room, laptop yada yada yada.

ok you can say it now.... everyone all together.

"Dave your off your meatballs, what happens when the ECU spits itself"

Exactly the same thing if the primary drive gear for the injector pump spits itself on any of the standard injector pumps or if the primary plunger on a cav or VE pump cracks. The engine stops.

So how do you fix it? simple on the Electronic vehicle you replace the ECU with the spare you just happened to be carrying. which is exactly the same thing you do with the injector pump when your primary drive gear on your injector pump spits or you crack the plunger. Sounds easy right?

Well in the case of the ECU yes it is, undo a handful of bolts a couple of electrical connectors and then replace the unit put the plugs back on and do up the bolts. In the case of your mechanical injection pump the basic list is as follows.

Set the engine to the injection timing point, on the compression stroke
remove and seal the injector lines and injectors.
remove and seal the fuel lines, ditto for the lift pump depending on where it fits
remove the injector pump
do the coarse timing of the injector pump
fit the spare injector pump
unseal and re-install the the lift pump and fuel lines
bleed up the fuel system to the injector pump
spill time the injector pump
unseal and install the injector lines to the injectors
bleed and prime the injectors
start the engine.

simple huh....

and that doesnt even go to cover some of the other possabilities like, say the weight return spring on fly weights of the governor lets go (the engine wont start or run) or if the link from the governor to the fuel control rail lets go (runaway engine)

just for kicks, how much does a fully setup injector pump cost and weigh, compare that to the cost of a standby ECU.

some other arguments....

no-one carries the equipment to diagnose an ECU in the event of a sensor failure stopping the show. urm, how many people now a days go bush with a laptop, PDA and in some cases a really good phone? all of those things with the aid of the right connectors and software can talk to an ECU. Lets look at the other side of that...

how many people go bush with an inline injector crack pressure tester? how about a precision depth gauge to set plunger bump clearances no, none of that? how about a pump calibration rack? spill timing line? cmon really none of you driving old school diesels carry any of that? so how do you re-time the pump if you have to remove it?

At the end of the day it all comes down to trip preparation and knowledge. mechanically speaking its a hell of a lot easier to diagnose and repair an electronically controlled engine if you carry the right gear and spares which unlike a mechanical diesel engine every sensor and in some cases all the diagnostics gear fits neatly into a box about the size of a shoebox.

But a mechanical engine if you know and I mean REALLY know the principals of your engine you can field repair it providing you diagnose it in the first place and then can get yourself to somewhere that has all the gear to manufacture or repair your damaged part.

Summarising,

Any electronic part that can cause an electronically controlled engine to stop has a similar mechanical component (often more than one) doing the same job and if that part (or parts) fails then your in exactly the same boat as the bloke with the electronic engine but I'm tipping (and this excludes things like head gaskets and piston failure) that any failure of the same nature that stops both engines will be repaired quicker on the electronic engine.


...

[stevo68]

Bloody hell......a ****ing contest amongst LR owners :angel:. The old...what is a real LR.............cripes all mighty. Look, I appreciate the fact that some of you are avid and passionate LR owners....especially for the earlier models. It could also be that you have a lot of time up your sleeves and feel the need to espouse various levels of knowledge and what is going to run in 40 yrs time. Bows for being able to service and maintain your own vehicles. But so what? Seriously...so what? Does it really matter in the overall scheme of things? I've never read so much **** as I have in this thread.

As long as my LR gets me from A to B and out camping and 4WDing with mates and back again..............I couldn't give a flying fig as to whether it will be around in 30 yrs.....whether I could service it or not...........or what type of fuel it may or may not run. ITS A 4WD. Yep...you read it correctly..........ITS A 4WD. I've had Smokey for 4 yrs now.....over 200,000 kms.....2 issues...fuel pump and a fan belt. Got flat bedded....fixed and home again within 24hrs. Whoopdee doo. Do I care if Smokey doesn't have the same lineage as opposed to a Series? I tell ya...I'd never want to own one of those as I think you have to wear a tin helmet :p.

Seriously......be passionate about the marque we all drive in it's various derivations and if you want to have a crack at something.....set your sites on the Evoque :twisted:....Range Rover my arse.

Regards

Stevo

[Loubrey]

Hear, hear Stevo...

I'm personally rather disappointed with the whole vain of this thread. I take great pride in every vehicle Land Rover as a Marque produces. Do I personally want to own a sample of each one? Most likely not, but obviously there are people out there that stick to the green oval and buy a model that suit their personal lifestyle

This sort of bashing has no place on a site where the name states "Land Rover Owners" and all owners of all models have the opportunity to receive advice and have discussions on their choice of Land Rover...

[ugu80]

Can't stand it anymore. Have to have a rant. I have a 300tdi. Call me Luddite, I love it because there is no electronic anything and I don't care it doesn't make a smillion kilohorsepowerwatts, I celebrate its simplicity. I view the KISS principle with religious awe. Every time I see a Puma I stop and look at it, particularly the inside, and think, 'Gee that's nice. Hope they love and enjoy it as much I love and enjoy my 130 300tdi'. The only thing I am envious of is an Izuzu County.

[incisor]

The only thing I am envious of is an Izuzu County.
15 hours behind the wheel of one fixes that :p

[Blknight.aus]

double post.... dunno how...

[Blknight.aus]

...

quite correct...

now go bleed an unmodified puma with nothing more than a 4 inch shifter and the gear provided with the vehicle...

[Loubrey]

That's why I spent $38 and got the tool to bleed the fuel system...

This argument is like comparing a DC-3 airliner with a DC-11 airliner. Yes, the pilot would most probably be able to bleed the fuel system on the old Dakota, but why...?

I sure as hell know which one I would prefer to travel in!

[ugu80]

I sure as hell know which one I would prefer to travel in!

Exactly. Each to their own. One is not better or worse than another, its our money, its our choice; so no more bagging different model Defenders, County or Series LR, that's what Landcruisers are for.

[rovercare]

quite correct...

now go bleed an unmodified puma with nothing more than a 4 inch shifter and the gear provided with the vehicle...

Why? I don't like any of the land rover diesels, nor any of the petrols, I see them as a blank canvas for something better

I'll be heading to ls3 powered p38 land over this winter when I build it, I prefer the luxury:D

[Blknight.aus]

yeah, im currently admiring a knock off of a detroit 4/53.....

[Mick-Kelly]

And that prooves what exactly???,but yes we'll do the Gunbarrell,me in the TDCi and you two in the leaf sprung series,do you know what corrigations are?,don't worry you will.Tell me,how many K's in outback Oz have you done?,where have you been and what did you do?,I'm only asking because like many many others on here I've done lots in rubbish vehicles like the Tdi,rover V8,TDCi and that most evil of all vehicles,the electric everything toorak tractor,the one and only Range Rover.Oh and the puma,sorry TDCi is enviromentally friendly,thats what all that scary stuff under the bonnet is. Pat

Well Pat lets see if i can answer a few of your questions.
Landies I have owned - Series 3 diesel, Series 2A petrol, Series 3 lightweight petrol, Disco tdi, Series one petrol. I currently drive the current Hilux for work however in the past my bum has graced various land cruisers (including the turbo V8 diesel), patrols, hiluxes, Ford F series etc. etc. as work supplied vehicles. And i have been left on the side of the road by an electric wonderland Sahara cruiser more than once. Roads i have driven, well i have been up Cape york, lived in Burketown for 6 months, lived in Doomadgee for 3 months (wet season), Lived in the Isa for years and drove weekly between Isa and Birdsville. Driven the Simpson, Driven around most of the territory and have driven every beach that you can in Qld. I must say i have never driven in WA or SA. I am well aware of what corrugations and bulldust are (you seem to have a bit of bulldust left on your chin). I have towed boat trailers to their early death across corrugations in the gulf country. I would very happily take a leaf sprung landy across any desert you would care to in this country. I hope your ECU copes with the vibrations off those corrugations. Wouldnt want to have to get a chopper in to airlift you out when a piece of solder let go. Or do you cary a spare computer in your car?
Hmm maybe at the end of the big trip we could have a little competition. I will hose all of the bulldust out of the interior of my leaf sprung truck and i will hose all of the bulldust out of the interior of your puma. Competition is which car starts afterwards. Maybe the wet upholstery will screw up your resale value.
I am a little surprised at your user name. You seem to go for 303's. I would have pegged you for a STEYR man myself. You know, made from plastic so you can just clip a new bit on when the old breaks off. I rest comfortably knowing that the 63 year old land rover sitting in my garage will still be driveing when your puma is a faded memory.
What i am realy surprised at is unless i am mistaken you were giving it to a hyundai or something similar earlier in the thread whose engine locked down when a light bulb blew out. Do you really think all of this unecessary electrical crap is better? Simple systems are better by design.

[TimNZ]

Well Pat lets see if i can answer a few of your questions.
Landies I have owned - Series 3 diesel, Series 2A petrol, Series 3 lightweight petrol, Disco tdi, Series one petrol. I currently drive the current Hilux for work however in the past my bum has graced various land cruisers (including the turbo V8 diesel), patrols, hiluxes, Ford F series etc. etc. as work supplied vehicles. And i have been left on the side of the road by an electric wonderland Sahara cruiser more than once. Roads i have driven, well i have been up Cape york, lived in Burketown for 6 months, lived in Doomadgee for 3 months (wet season), Lived in the Isa for years and drove weekly between Isa and Birdsville. Driven the Simpson, Driven around most of the territory and have driven every beach that you can in Qld. I must say i have never driven in WA or SA. I am well aware of what corrugations and bulldust are (you seem to have a bit of bulldust left on your chin). I have towed boat trailers to their early death across corrugations in the gulf country. I would very happily take a leaf sprung landy across any desert you would care to in this country. I hope your ECU copes with the vibrations off those corrugations. Wouldnt want to have to get a chopper in to airlift you out when a piece of solder let go. Or do you cary a spare computer in your car?
Hmm maybe at the end of the big trip we could have a little competition. I will hose all of the bulldust out of the interior of my leaf sprung truck and i will hose all of the bulldust out of the interior of your puma. Competition is which car starts afterwards. Maybe the wet upholstery will screw up your resale value.
I am a little surprised at your user name. You seem to go for 303's. I would have pegged you for a STEYR man myself. You know, made from plastic so you can just clip a new bit on when the old breaks off. I rest comfortably knowing that the 63 year old land rover sitting in my garage will still be driveing when your puma is a faded memory.
What i am realy surprised at is unless i am mistaken you were giving it to a hyundai or something similar earlier in the thread whose engine locked down when a light bulb blew out. Do you really think all of this unecessary electrical crap is better? Simple systems are better by design.

So because you and Dave don't like them we shouldn't own them?

[Blknight.aus]

So because you and Dave don't like them we shouldn't own them?

nahh you can own em...

y've just gotta call em fords cause defender drivers wave.

[TimNZ]

Perhaps they're just not waving at you?

Regards,

Land Rover Defender owner :)

[Mick-Kelly]

So because you and Dave don't like them we shouldn't own them?

Nope you can own them, chose whatever you want to drive. Just dont claim that pumas are what land rovers used to be. That is what the topic is about after all :):)

[justinc]

Gee these 'other' makes of 4x4 will be loving this, land rover owners snapping at each other, get a grip.

JC

[Mick-Kelly]

The greatest car of all times !!! - YouTube

[TimNZ]

I'll take your sugestion under advisement Mick.

Regards,

Tim

P.S. I've updated my signature block just for you :)

[Ranga]

Gee these 'other' makes of 4x4 will be loving this, land rover owners snapping at each other, get a grip.

JC

Wait... there's other 4x4 makes?! :eek:

Sent from the dodgy keyboard on my phone via Tapatalk

[newhue]

I am quite disappointed in this discussion. It seems some authors have it in for the Ford powered Defender and that's it, period.
To me it seems they have a personal disappointment with Land Rover, but for all who have the latest offering somehow have to be put down because of this. If we could by a non electrical new Defender most of us probably would, but we cant, so we don't.
If it's as simple as carting a spare ECU and the tools to fit it well so be it. Just like an axel for a series or a whatever for a Tdi. I don't think filling a gbox with grease is a solution, only the army would carry such quantities, or have it trucked in.
It seems odd that a US Ford is no good, but a Japanese Isuzu is OK. I have heard both motors can achieve 1000 000km. MR have a client who has 1 million on his Tdi. And last weekend I met a guy with a 2.25lt S2 motor who has done so on the original motor as well. So it's possible, but also a lucky dip in many ways.
I have not heard any bagging for the TD5, thankfully. But perhaps because it's LR designed it's OK. Or perhaps it electrical vilification is still to come. We all drive Land Rovers, and the Defender even it's latest form is still the most capable 4x4 on offer.
If the Armies of the world were scared of technology then we would still be in the trenches with wistles. I would think the reason they have not gone with LR is more to do with back up service, up front price, general attitude, and supply. Something LR are very bad at in all fields.

The key to any remote travel is preparation, and just about anyone who has done so will say so. In my experience, and it's a long way from some of you, the things that break after good preparation can't be prepared for in a practical sense, so you don't. It's that stupid clip that holds that hose that rattled loose and got caught in something. Ahh I now know to zip tie that...

[isuzutoo-eh]

Hmmm every 'long' trip i have attempted in my 'rugged minimal electronics' County has resulted in breakage. Axle let go in QLD, diff in the central west. It has spent more time being fixed than any tdci has spent having warranty work done.
When i drive past a tdci Defender the wave i give is not one of pity it's envy that they have a warranty instead of a box of tools and some chassis stands!
Also, the traction control makes tdci Defenders more capable than my County as it currently stands. I would need another lsd or a locker to be as capable.

[incisor]

why take what the black one says so serious in the first place?

he must be tickled pink!

:angel:

[Loubrey]

You'll have die hard bitter pills on every topic.

In the UK you have people who claim the last "real" landrover was the 2.25 liter petrol and if you want to sink as low as a diesel, possibly the 2.5 liter normally aspirated diesel (who needs them new fangled turbo contraptions...?)

The Isuzu dielsel engine was not available anywhere but Australia, so they can't possibly be "real" Land Rovers either...?

Maybe the Td5 was received well in Australia, but leafer fans the world over hated them. Land Rover apparently "ruined the brand" by making things electronic. The Td5 engine was developed and produced during the BMW era and they got the blame for it...

The 2.8 petrol engine out of the BMW 328 was installed in South African Defenders for a few years. 10 years on and who could possibly believe that they could make it past the "Millenium Bug"...?

I've owned to date the following Land Rover 90's (County's for those who don't understand the term Land Rover 90) and Defender 90's:

2.5 N/A diesel (1984)
2.5TD (1988)
300Tdi's (1996, 1994, 1998) In that order untill 2 years ago
Td4 Tdci (2010)

I loved all of them, but who do you need to kid that the 2.5 was a grimly underpowered experience? That the 2.5TD was 5 times harder to bleed than a Puma?

I love my Puma, it is by a country mile the most pleasant, most comfortable, most sound proof, most waterproof, most dust proof and yes, to date most reliable Defender I've ever owned. I'll look after it and I'll put money on it that it will still be on the road in 20 years.

Long Live Land Rover!

[CAPT. Defendo]

The only reason the army is replacing their 110's with G wagons is the tender called for automatics. As we all know land rover don't make an auto defender and couldn't be bothered to develop one so they didn't supply a vehicle to the tender. G wagon won by default as cruisers and patrols are too soft.

[dobbo]

And that prooves what exactly???,but yes we'll do the Gunbarrell,me in the TDCi and you two in the leaf sprung series,do you know what corrigations are?,don't worry you will.Tell me,how many K's in outback Oz have you done?,where have you been and what did you do?,I'm only asking because like many many others on here I've done lots in rubbish vehicles like the Tdi,rover V8,TDCi and that most evil of all vehicles,the electric everything toorak tractor,the one and only Range Rover.Oh and the puma,sorry TDCi is enviromentally friendly,thats what all that scary stuff under the bonnet is. Pat


If Dave is up for it, bring it. How come we'd be travelling 3000+ km's more than you though?

[PAT303]

Well Pat lets see if i can answer a few of your questions.
Landies I have owned - Series 3 diesel, Series 2A petrol, Series 3 lightweight petrol, Disco tdi, Series one petrol. I currently drive the current Hilux for work however in the past my bum has graced various land cruisers (including the turbo V8 diesel), patrols, hiluxes, Ford F series etc. etc. as work supplied vehicles. And i have been left on the side of the road by an electric wonderland Sahara cruiser more than once. Roads i have driven, well i have been up Cape york, lived in Burketown for 6 months, lived in Doomadgee for 3 months (wet season), Lived in the Isa for years and drove weekly between Isa and Birdsville. Driven the Simpson, Driven around most of the territory and have driven every beach that you can in Qld. I must say i have never driven in WA or SA. I am well aware of what corrugations and bulldust are (you seem to have a bit of bulldust left on your chin). I have towed boat trailers to their early death across corrugations in the gulf country. I would very happily take a leaf sprung landy across any desert you would care to in this country. I hope your ECU copes with the vibrations off those corrugations. Wouldnt want to have to get a chopper in to airlift you out when a piece of solder let go. Or do you cary a spare computer in your car?
Hmm maybe at the end of the big trip we could have a little competition. I will hose all of the bulldust out of the interior of my leaf sprung truck and i will hose all of the bulldust out of the interior of your puma. Competition is which car starts afterwards. Maybe the wet upholstery will screw up your resale value.
I am a little surprised at your user name. You seem to go for 303's. I would have pegged you for a STEYR man myself. You know, made from plastic so you can just clip a new bit on when the old breaks off. I rest comfortably knowing that the 63 year old land rover sitting in my garage will still be driveing when your puma is a faded memory.
What i am realy surprised at is unless i am mistaken you were giving it to a hyundai or something similar earlier in the thread whose engine locked down when a light bulb blew out. Do you really think all of this unecessary electrical crap is better? Simple systems are better by design.

Your putting in some attitude there Mick,I like old actually Mick and yes I'm a303 fan,I like mausers too,I have 6 in the safe and Steyr's,if you want the best they have no equal this side of anything German or Swiss.I think you should have a nana nap and get over yourself as like I've posted I've had most types of LR's and I like them all,every one but as I get older and have to travel further because of were I live I want a vehicle that can do the miles and a series 2a isn't it.Anyway thats it for me,enjoy you series and I'll enjoy my TDCi with all it's electric hocus pocus that lets me have plenty of power with economy too. Pat

[uninformed]

:lol2:

make that a gemini series II with a Brazilian.....:D

[V8Ian]

Hold on everyone, I've got to go and replenish the popcorn. :p

[Fluids]

Choc-Top & a box of Jaffa's while your there please Ian ! :p

[newhue]

to drag this thread back on topic,
I took my 1955 series 1 for a burn today.
I was sitting at a small local round about and a pre 2007 Defender entered and exited as oncoming traffic to me. GASP he didn't wave.
I then passed another oncoming pre 2007 Defender on Browns Plain Rd, and again GASP no wave. I don't judge these Defender drivers, I do't care what model Defer they drive, there are many reasons as to why people don't wave.
It would have been cool if they did wave, but they didn't, so what.
My little old 2lt ran like a dream, except for the amazing backfire it's capable of when it's turned off. Should see the folks at the servo jump.:p

[dobbo]

Choc-Top & a box of Jaffa's while your there please Ian ! :p


Maltesers and a blue slushie please, this is better than Foxtel

[mfc]

Ok Conclusive proof, the defenders with the **** bulges in the bonnet, or Fords as I refer to them are NOT defenders.

On my recent drive out to Emerald we passed something like 30 landies while I was at the wheel....

Defender drivers wave, Check, every single time AND I was in a disco.
Disco Drivers, Check, well mostly usually the D1s waved and occasionally the D2s.
Ford Drivers, Nope, Not a single one out of about 10.

Since Defender drivers wave and all...... :)

probably fixated with there guages and the grinding noise coming from there rear diff to notice you

[Blknight.aus]

Hold on everyone, I've got to go and replenish the popcorn. :p


Choc-Top & a box of Jaffa's while your there please Ian ! :p


Maltesers and a blue slushie please, this is better than Foxtel

ITs a bit like shooting fish in a barrel... Frozen coke and minties for me..


probably fixated with there guages and the grinding noise coming from there rear diff to notice you

OR worrying about the drop of water that may have made it into the tank on the last fuel fill or when the Vac pump is going to hurl oil everywhere.

[TimNZ]

ITs a bit like shooting fish in a barrel... Frozen coke and minties for me..


So you're deliberately trolling then? Or just having a bit of a laugh.

[Blknight.aus]

well it started out as a bit of a jybe, much in the same way as the old rangie drivers VS Deefer Drivers wave thing went.

But if they're are biting this well and easily I'll just keep reelin' em in........

:twisted:
I believe that the current PC term for it is "Excrement agitation"

[dobbo]

re: the corrigations, considering "Fozzy" is pre ADR, we could take it in turns snoozing on a bean bag whilst the other continues driving. and lets not forget dropping the windscreen for that warm desert breeze :D

[juddy]

re: the corrigations, considering "Fozzy" is pre ADR, we could take it in turns snoozing on a bean bag whilst the other continues driving. and lets not forget dropping the windscreen for that warm desert breeze :D

Dropping the windscreen for a face full of dust and flys. Yum yum

[Blknight.aus]

Dropping the windscreen for a face full of dust and flys. Yum yum


rarerly a problem, just drive according to dust distance and dont be in such a rush.

[Mick-Kelly]

Your putting in some attitude there Mick,I like old actually Mick and yes I'm a303 fan,I like mausers too,I have 6 in the safe and Steyr's,if you want the best they have no equal this side of anything German or Swiss.I think you should have a nana nap and get over yourself as like I've posted I've had most types of LR's and I like them all,every one but as I get older and have to travel further because of were I live I want a vehicle that can do the miles and a series 2a isn't it.Anyway thats it for me,enjoy you series and I'll enjoy my TDCi with all it's electric hocus pocus that lets me have plenty of power with economy too. Pat
If you dont want the attitude, dont poke the bear :p:p:p:p

[DeanoH]

...........................I like old actually Mick and yes I'm a303 fan,I like mausers too,...................... Pat

An interesting analogy here Pat, and not dis-similiar to the comparative Landy argument going on here.

Whilst .303 might be a 'classic' calibre dating back well over a century, time and design moved on, not unlike a S1 Landy. Though realistically in firearm terms the British .303 became a piece of junk compared to 'the opposition' offerings. Rimmed ammunition had had its day, not particularly suited to auto/semi auto applications. Why the British persevered with it past the turn of the 20th century remains a mystery.
The S2 Landy is probably the 'classic' Land Rover. Not flash but rock solid reliable, a good design. Not unlike my old 98k Mauser, arguably the best (manual) action ever. Mine was in 30-06 calibre, another classic. The 98k Mauser is so named because it's action was invented in 1898 and is widely regarded as the 'ultimate' design for a manual action. Modern high powered ammunition is derived from the original 30-06 rimless case, so named because of its .30 calibre and its design year, 1906.
Perhaps the Land Rover County can be compared to my old Valmet M88. A work of art, refined, simple and very capable. Perhaps the best of its kind in a modern design.
As to the Land Rover Defender, I can't say. That bastard Howard, with the stroke of a pen, turned me into a criminal overnight and confiscated the lot (firearms that is) and I've not owned a 'modern' Defender so can't comment on them.

I've got green Land Rover blood flowing in my veins. I've owned SII, SIII, RRC, P38a and D2a (SWMBO's) for 40 years. For the type of remote outback touring we do reliability and the ability to diagnose/repair is everything. 'Modern' 4WD's don't come close to meeting this requirement, LR included, which is why we bought our OKA. Not flash, not sexy, no iPod connectivity but if the bastard breaks it's so bloody simple a child could diagnose the problem (which is usually harder than the repair) in my experience. For me complexity=unreliability=unsafe for the type of 4WD'ing we do.
Sure, if you're close to support and are happy to rely on others to get you out of the ****, buy your brand new piece of electronic trickery and live happily ever after. I come from an 'different' generation where taking responsibility for my actions and 'stuff ups' means I should try to do so. Also there's no NRMA or RACV where we go and EPIRB's are for aeroplanes and not irresponsible 4WD nitwits, though we do have HF/Sat comms to call for (very expensive) suport should the need arise.
Unfortunately simple, reliable 4WD's are now an extinct species. But as most 4WD's are now used as shopping trolleys, soccer mum transports and 'soft road' tourers and the ability to call others for assistance instead of taking responsibility for ones own actions/predicament is now socially 'normal' perhaps there is no longer a need.
But I worry about the modern 4WDers reliance on electronic trickery, whether it's the vehicle of which they have little or no knowlege or control, GPS as opposed to a knowlege of map reading/own situation, ignorance of comms limitations of mobile phones/UHF coupled with the desire to travel in remote outback regions and a general lack of serious consideration to the real dangers involved.
Whilst self reliance may be unfashionable and un-neccessary for most 4WDing I'm old enough to remember the fate of the Page family on the Birdsville Track in the '60's, a more practical era, and can see the potential for further tragedy with less knowlegable and self reliant travellers of today.
Perhaps Frederick Blakely (1882-1962) had the right idea, with Dick and Jim O'Neill bicycled from White Cliffs to Darwin in 1908. No electronic trickery on their transport and they did OK.:D

Deano:)

[V8Ian]

Maltesers and a blue slushie please, this is better than Foxtel
In yer dreams Dobbo!

Blue slushie slurpers never wave. :mad::p

[jakeslouw]

"But I worry about the modern 4WDers reliance on electronic trickery, whether it's the vehicle of which they have little or no knowlege or control, GPS as opposed to a knowlege of map reading/own situation, ignorance of comms limitations of mobile phones/UHF coupled with the desire to travel in remote outback regions and a general lack of serious consideration to the real dangers involved."

I think you could say the same about most military forces as well: I reckon most armies don't teach fundamental map reading and direction finding any more.
Let alone basic survival skills: I learnt more when I was doing my Master Backwoodsman badge for Scouts than what they teach the average infantrist today.

[V8Ian]

So you're deliberately trolling then? Or just having a bit of a laugh.
:eek: Ding! Abley assisted by the master, Dobbo. :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:
What a team. :clap2:

[Scallops]

I got your post Blackers! Go the Ford!


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[rick130]

to drag this thread back on topic,
I took my 1955 series 1 for a burn today.
I was sitting at a small local round about and a pre 2007 Defender entered and exited as oncoming traffic to me. GASP he didn't wave.
I then passed another oncoming pre 2007 Defender on Browns Plain Rd, and again GASP no wave. I don't judge these Defender drivers, I do't care what model Defer they drive, there are many reasons as to why people don't wave.
It would have been cool if they did wave, but they didn't, so what.
My little old 2lt ran like a dream, except for the amazing backfire it's capable of when it's turned off. Should see the folks at the servo jump.:p

Typical Jason.

IME, Queenslanders don't wave.......:angel:

[DiscoMick]

I got lots of waves as I arrived late at Flanagans just as half the GCLRO campers were heading out for their day trip.:cool:
But on the way home near Beaudesert I waved at an old Defender and he ignored me. :(

[newhue]

Typical Jason.

IME, Queenslanders don't wave.......:angel:

hey, I'm a Qld resident. But yes well I am guilty of not waving. They day Lucky was registered myself and zulu delta were have a great time coasting along discussing (loudly) the finer points on the S1 and didn't see an oncoming Defender waving furiously at us.
I only became aware of this when Mrs Ho Har pointed this out. But the Defender driver...well who knows what he thought.

[rick130]

hey, I'm a Qld resident.
[snip]


I know, just stirring :D

[uninformed]

I know, just stirring :D

some QLD'rs dont wave because they have their head in their hands trying to figure out how they are stupider than dirt....:angel:

[Beckford]

Nope you can own them, chose whatever you want to drive. Just dont claim that pumas are what land rovers used to be. That is what the topic is about after all :):)

Bit rich, coming from the bloke who just bought a Hilux. ;)

[Mick-Kelly]

Bit rich, coming from the bloke who just bought a Hilux. ;)
I wouldnt think so. LR dont make a product i want anymore and the pumas simply are not what land rovers used to be. Notice i said 'drive whatever you want' well i wanted a vehicle that has comfortable ergonomics, dual cab ute and leaf springs over live axles with a simple non electric turbo diesel engine. And thats exactly what i got :p:p:p:p:p and i absolutely love it.

[Scallops]

I love my Ford - ever since Blackers threw a spanner on it, it has become bewitched.....Darned thing is running like a dream! :D

[dobbo]

And that prooves what exactly???,but yes we'll do the Gunbarrell,me in the TDCi and you two in the leaf sprung series,do you know what corrigations are?,don't worry you will.Tell me,how many K's in outback Oz have you done?,where have you been and what did you do?,I'm only asking because like many many others on here I've done lots in rubbish vehicles like the Tdi,rover V8,TDCi and that most evil of all vehicles,the electric everything toorak tractor,the one and only Range Rover.Oh and the puma,sorry TDCi is enviromentally friendly,thats what all that scary stuff under the bonnet is. Pat


Is this a rant, a bitch or a moan. Yes I am well aware of what a corrigation is and believe it or not the phenomena does occur outside the Pilbara. What did I do? Which time? I can tell you when we went fishing, we fished, drank a lot, did a bit of the old inout inout with the missus, you know the usual stuff. Tell me does Nhulunbuy qualify as Outback Oz? I can tell you there is nowhere a Valiant cannot get you if you have enough fuel.

[weeds]

nahh you can own em...

y've just gotta call em fords cause defender drivers wave.

Dave....thought you got rid of your defense years ago, it kinda helps if you at least own one

[Blknight.aus]

still do, its just on a very long term loan to the old man....

:)