Smoke in the rocker cover?

[Hendrous]

Howdy,

I wonder if someone could give me some idea on what might be
wrong with my normally trusty 300 tdi.

After driving about 1000k's over Easter it started to run rough and there is now a nasty burnt oil smell under the bonnet...No obvious signs of oil leaks or smoke from the muffler, but there is whitish smoke in the rocker cover and similar in air filter intake pipe.
No sign of water in the oil sump, or oil in the coolant, and the radiator pipes are not under pressure.

It's got 380k km on the clock so the engine is run in (LOL), but I've had the head gasket replaced and head planned and honed about 80k's ago..

THe problems did seems to coincide with filling up at a Caltex on the way home. I definitely used the diesel pump, but naturally I'm wondering about the fuel a little (more out of hope that it is a simple fix).

Any ideas to help me narrow this down would be appreciated. I'm booked to take it in to the local deisel mechanic on Monday, but it would be good to have a better idea on the possible problems before I do.

Chrs

Hendrous

[justinc]

Have you ran the engine with the filler cap off? Are there excessive pulses of smoke?

JC

[Hendrous]

Thanks for the reponse.
I just turned it over with the cap off and yes plenty of smoke is puffing out and it sounds not good at all.

[Tank]

Sounds like a blown head gasket leaking from combustion chamber to pushrod holes into rocker area, Regards Frank.

[justinc]

Sounds like a blown head gasket leaking from combustion chamber to pushrod holes into rocker area, Regards Frank.

Right on Frank, Thats what I was thinking with those symptoms. Don't drive it anymore, next thing it will try and run on its own oil.

Common place to blow through too.

JC

[Hendrous]

Thanks Tank and JC,

Not the diagnosis I was hoping for, but at least I know not to drive it now.
Considering the head gasket was replaced about 80k kms ago, is this hinting that the cooling system/radiator isn't working properly? I hoped to go a bit further on the new gasket that 80k km.
With 380k kms on the clock, I'm wondering if it would be better to look at buying a reconditioned engine rather than spend on another head gasket only to find the pistons rings give out or something down in the block.

Chrs

Hendrous

[justinc]

Thanks Tank and JC,

Not the diagnosis I was hoping for, but at least I know not to drive it now.
Considering the head gasket was replaced about 80k kms ago, is this hinting that the cooling system/radiator isn't working properly? I hoped to go a bit further on the new gasket that 80k km.
With 380k kms on the clock, I'm wondering if it would be better to look at buying a reconditioned engine rather than spend on another head gasket only to find the pistons rings give out or something down in the block.

Chrs

Hendrous

I wouldn't hesitate at 380K, I have replaced head gaskets at 450K in these engines before and bores look as new, that particular engine is now over 550K and going just as well as before.

Was the previous head gasket a genuine brand, IE Elring? Was it steel shim or composite?

Both those factors are important.

Elring (Genuine Landrover supplier) have proven to be the choice for longevity, and steel shim gaskets require an almost new block face to seal correctly, so it is still possible that the 80,000km lifespan of the current gasket isn't the engines fault, possibly a materials issue.

The cooling system may or may not have a bearing on this instance as the gasket seems to have blown as Frank suggested through to a pushrod gallery, usually indicative of age related failure as the original composite gasket can literally break down and allow the fire ring to push out, then gas to track across finally blowing through. Obviously Tdi's require exemplary cooling systems due to their miniscule radiator capacity but I'm not certain in this case it is a factor, usually if a gasket fails due to overheating, the vehicle becomes undriveable due to pressurising the cooling system or worse, hydraulic lock.

JC

[Hendrous]

G'day JC
I don't know what gasket they used last time, but I'm guessing it probably wasn't an Elring. I had it done at my local garage and after charging me about two grand the guy handed me back a car which was running on two pots and said he couldn't do any better without reconditioning the injectors. At that point I had to take it to an expert diesel machanic (who also drives a 200tdi) and he got it humming in no time after adjusting tapets and moving some gear to its proper position. So based on all this, i reckon it's a fair chance the first bloke didn't think about what gasket to use.

To save some bucks I'm considering trying to change the gasket myself. I have a manual and torque wrench, but I am concerned I might stuff the project up..
I've read through the manual and one thing it is telling me is to measure how far the pistons protrude to determine the thickness of the new gasket. Would you say this is essential? I haven't seen any gasket kits advertised of varying thicknesses.
Also had a look on utube to see if someone has filmed a gasket change on a 300tdi, but I couldn't find anything. Don't suppose someone has posted a link or made a thread about what to look out for on this site?

Chrs

Hendrous

[justinc]

G'day JC
I don't know what gasket they used last time, but I'm guessing it probably wasn't an Elring. I had it done at my local garage and after charging me about two grand the guy handed me back a car which was running on two pots and said he couldn't do any better without reconditioning the injectors. At that point I had to take it to an expert diesel machanic (who also drives a 200tdi) and he got it humming in no time after adjusting tapets and moving some gear to its proper position. So based on all this, i reckon it's a fair chance the first bloke didn't think about what gasket to use.

To save some bucks I'm considering trying to change the gasket myself. I have a manual and torque wrench, but I am concerned I might stuff the project up..
I've read through the manual and one thing it is telling me is to measure how far the pistons protrude to determine the thickness of the new gasket. Would you say this is essential? I haven't seen any gasket kits advertised of varying thicknesses.
Also had a look on utube to see if someone has filmed a gasket change on a 300tdi, but I couldn't find anything. Don't suppose someone has posted a link or made a thread about what to look out for on this site?

Chrs

Hendrous

Chris, this really is a simple job, about as simple as removing and replacing a 6 cylinder Holden Red motor head:D

The gaske protrusion doesn't need measuring in this case as the block hasn't been machined (Decked) and the pistons replaced, just check how many holes were on the edge of your existing gasket (There are a series of small holes punched into a small outer section of the gasket determining its thickness, 1,2,3 and no holes)I usually go with a 3 hole in most cases as it is the safest bet. The 'no hole' gasket is actually the thickest, so you could use that if you are worried about it.

You'll be fine but you need to angle torque the final 2 stages after the initial torque up.

JC

[Hendrous]

Thanks again,

After talking with my mechanic today, he wouldn't give me a ball park figure to replace the gasket and so I've decided to give it a go. I guess there are a number of possibles and he didn't want to tell me one thing and then have the figure blow out (parden the pun.) Hope you don't mind if I ask for some further advice if I hit a snag or two.
Found some helpfull threads on this forum and reading those has alerted me to a few potential pitfalls. If anyone can think of any common mistakes offhand, I'm keen to hear about them before I find out the hard way.
Chrs

[Tank]

First, remove drain plug in block just behind alternator and dipstick tube, will save you getting water in the bores.
Second remove head bolts as per directions from W/Shop manual.
Third, buy correct size thread tap (plug) and run all threads down to the bottom.
Fourth scrupously clean block surface till you could eat a meal off it, dont forget to plug pushrod holes with paper or rags to stop crud dropping down holes, use a vacuum cleaner to suck any debris off rags/paper before removing,
Fifth, check head surface (after scrupously cleaning surface) for flatness with a straight edge (engineers steel ruler) and have it milled if warped and the valves reset deeper to comply with specs.
Sixth, use new bolts and make sure they screw all the way down in their threads, by hand, a little WD40 on the threads, lubricate with engine rebuild oil under bolt head flats, buy a Kingchrome torque angle tool (less than $30).
Seventh buy a genuine Land Rover W/Shop Manual/Rave Disc or go to the "Good Oil" section there you will find a 300TDi workshop rebuild manual.
Eighth buy the best head gasket you can buy Elring springs to mind, i used the 3 peice laminated steel H/G and haven't had a problem since (knock on wood).
Ninth, if you get into trouble or not sure ask here and you will get it done, Regards Frank.

[Hendrous]

Chrs Franks

All noted. I'll let you know how I get on. Have a good wkd.

[justinc]

I think we would all be a bit offended if you DIDN'T ask questions/ ask for help.:p

Make sure you do!!

There are lots of us here who have done this job.:)

JC

[Hendrous]

Appreciate the support and looks forward to staying in touch .

It's funny, this disco has been my wifes wagon for about five years and then when I sold my ute to get her something that didn't blow so much smoke on start up into the footpath around the burbs I live in, I inherited it and it's been growing on me ever since. No joke a few weeks before easter I bought some new shocks thinking I need to improve the ride and they didn't arrive in time but here I am with a busted engine and four new shocks! They have pride of place in my garage, glistening as they are. Even bought a set of new stands to get that sorted. So point is moving I must be leaning to DIY and whyt not the bills are killer even though it makes sense to keep a vehicle of this vintage and quality going. I have to fix the engine so I can see what some new shocks will do to the ride which is like pretty bouncy i have to say.
Chrs

[pistolpete]

shocks are another DIY project...

[Hendrous]

Well it hasn't taken me long to hit a minor obstacle..

I can't get this coolant drain plug out of the block because it seems impossible to get a decent purchase on it using my socket wrench. Any tips on what to use or what I need to move?
Was trying to move the oil dip stick pipe a little to get help get at it, but I'm not sure if I should be bending that around.


Chrs

Mark

[Hendrous]

Found an old spanner I could shorten and using that I slowly got the nut out..Bugger of a spot to get at with the muffler in the way..but I guess it is all about having the right tool and I needed a short 13mm spanner.

I bloody hope every bolt or nut is not going to prove this challenging.

Chrs

[Hendrous]

G'day Frank and Justin,

Finally got the head off and you blokes were right on the money about the gasket. Gas had been getting across under the gasket to one of push rods holes.
Apart from that everything looks ok..no cracks that I can see.
THe old gasket is one of the composite types and I am stuffed if I can find the holes to tell me what thickness it is. Someone told me they are supposed to be around the drivers side adjacent to the fuel pump...nothing there I can find resembling little holes. Looks about 1.2 to 1.5mm thick.. What do you recommend? Should I just go to a three hole Elring or should I get it measured? I don't have one of those nifty measuring gauges.

Also wondering about the three triangular shapes in the block between the cylinders...one is open and looks like coolant might go through while the other two are completely closed off with what looks like some kind of scale. Are these channels meant to be delivering coolant around the head or are they just blank holes? I don't want to go digging into them if they are meant to be left as they are.

Finally in terms of cleaning the block and head, what is the go? Can you use a wire brush or do you have to go slowly across with a scrapper or something like that..Both faces are reasonably smooth but there are tiny bumps where some resin from the old gasket has stuck. I'm wondering if there is a solvent that will help lift this off?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Chrs

Mark

[justinc]

Hi Mark,

The holes are water ports and supposed to be open in the block etc, BUT the gasket has restrictors in it to slow the water down. Is there any chance of taking some pics of the gasket so we can point out the holes we are talking about? There IS a chance that the previous head gasket job they used the no hole thickest one, as some people just do that regardless.

Pics would help a lot.

Also, block up the pushrod holes and cylinder bores with rag, and use a sharp gasket scraper ( I use a good quality paint scraper, honed to a good sharp edge) to remove the big bits, then wet and dry with a bit of CRC to finish it off. Don't go too berserk as the CRC and particles of block face and gasket etc will wash down into the bores etc and act like grinding paste:o A little goes a long way.


I would also get the head machined, ONLY enough to clean up the face, NOT a great amount at all maybe only a few thousands of an inch. The old gasket can leave small rings in the surface where the fire ring was compressed, if they aren't taken out they will aid the new gasket to leak sooner.

JC

[Hendrous]

Thanks Justin,

How do you attach pics here? The image icon is asking me for a url. I'll try and pm them to you.

Chrs

Mark

[87County]

Thanks Justin,

How do you attach pics here? The image icon is asking me for a url. I'll try and pm them to you.

Chrs

Mark

Hi Hendrous - here are the instructions:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/25511-how-post-photos-forum.html


BUT:

basically you log on to photobucket (or similar) and open an account (free)

load the pics you want to post from your computer to your photobucket (or similar) a/c

copy the IMG ref from the photobucket album (shown under each pic you upload) and paste it in your post on this site

all done by mouse clicks....

It's simpler to do than to write this out !

HTH :)

[Hendrous]

Thanks the heads up.
Here we go.



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/790.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/791.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/792.jpg

[Hendrous]

Two more shots on the drivers side of the gasket..Can anyone see the holes I am looking for?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/786.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/787.jpg

[justinc]

thats a no hole gasket, the thickest one.:)

jc

[Hendrous]

Howdy,

Got to scrapping back the head last night and I could have a problem with some corrosion where two of those triangular water ports meet the head.

As pictured the corrosion is quite close to one of the gasket rings to the third cylinder and I'm concerned about whether the gasket will seal with that there. Can the head be filled with something- don't laugh, but I was wondering about some muffler putty just to provide some backing for the gasket?

Any thoughts ? https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/738.jpg

[Tank]

What I can't work out is why are those triangular shape holes there for anyway, there doesn't seem to be anywhere for the water to go, it's hard to tell if there are holes in the engine block that match. What colour was the coolant.
I would clean the head up all over and take it to someone that repairs heads and have them weld the erosion holes, machine the head surface and have it heat treated (hardened). You can buy new heads on eBay for around $1100 +, you maybe able to use Devcon alloy metal paste in a pinch, but you would need to get the head "hot Tanked" and remove all traces of corrosion before using Devcon, have you any pics of the block surface directly above those triangular water holes. Can anyone tell me why they are there when there is no corresponding hole in the head? Is it the correct gasket? Regards Frank.

[Hendrous]

I can't work out why they are there either. In my case it seems they are there to provide a means to corrode the head!

The coolant was orange when I drained it and the two triangular ports under where the head is damaged are blocked with some corrosion or scale deposits. I don't know if I should attempt to clean them out in case a larger chunk drops down into the engine and blocks another part of the cooling system.

Since posting previously I drilled the two areas out and filled them with a two part 'steel epoxy' which is supposed to handle 600c. Probably should have waited and had it welded, but once it cures I'll see how it sands back.

If it isn't binding, I think i'll have to go for another head as I can't see the welding and heat treating costing less that a few hundred and even then I'm guessing it is still a compromised head. What does the heat treating do btw?

Oh well not going to plan, but at least it isn't pulled to bits in my mechanics workshop and I would be about $700 down and facing the same problem plus interest.

Chrs

Mark

[Tank]

Steel epoxy is no good and will react with the alloy head and cause the same problem, if you are going to use an epoxy use Devcon Aluminium epoxy, was the water you drained red OAT additive or rusty water. You need to clean the block surface, heat treating brings the head surface back to the specified hardness. Has anyone on the forum reading this any explanation of why those triangular water holes in the block don't go into the head, they seem to be a waste of space, Regards Frank.

[Hendrous]

Hi Frank,

At least the steel epoxy hasn't set yet. I'll dig it out and start again. Thanks for the heads up on that.

I'm in two minds at this point thinking about getting a new head if this one is on the way out..I saw on ebay a new head with valves plus bolts and gaskets for $1300. Deducting the cost of all bolts and gasket which I need anyway it starts to make sense.
That said I keep mulling over whether this head is still ok. The problem areas are only over those two triangular ports, the old gasket failed elsewhere and it is totally flat.

Adding to the quandary I'm suss about the state of the coolant ports in the block. THe coolant that came out looked quite rusty, certainly was a rust colour..I don't know what they filled it with when the head was done last, but I think it was the green stuff.
If it possible to flush the block while the head is off?
I've flushed the radiator..but that is all.

Thanks again for the help.
Chrs
Mark

[Tank]

Hi Frank,

At least the steel epoxy hasn't set yet. I'll dig it out and start again. Thanks for the heads up on that.

I'm in two minds at this point thinking about getting a new head if this one is on the way out..I saw on ebay a new head with valves plus bolts and gaskets for $1300. Deducting the cost of all bolts and gasket which I need anyway it starts to make sense.
That said I keep mulling over whether this head is still ok. The problem areas are only over those two triangular ports, the old gasket failed elsewhere and it is totally flat.

Adding to the quandary I'm suss about the state of the coolant ports in the block. THe coolant that came out looked quite rusty, certainly was a rust colour..I don't know what they filled it with when the head was done last, but I think it was the green stuff.
If it possible to flush the block while the head is off?
I've flushed the radiator..but that is all.

Thanks again for the help.
Chrs
Mark
You can flush the block but you will have to totally seal the cam follower holes and any oil holes in the block surface, stuff with rags, make sure you can get them back out and smear some grease over the rags, you will need to get any crap out of the block.
A new head would be the way to go, you can always keep the old head and get it repaired when your more flush, don't forget to tap all the head bolt holes and clean the block surface, any further problems call me, regards Frank.

[lokka]

Mark im in the same boat as you im about to do a head on my TDI 300 i just sent you a PM with a bit of info on heads

[Hendrous]

G'day Lokka,
Appreciate the pm mate, but later on yesterday I got onto an engine refurb outfit nearby and they're going to drill out and alloy weld/fill the corroded bits and plane the head as was suggested as an option by Frank and Justin. All up I'm looking at about $170 so I'm going for the cost saving option and I'll have to live with the consequences if the engines blows up when I am at the bottom of a dirt track somewhere.

Best of luck with getting the new head back on..I found myself lying awake last night rehearsing what might screw up with the torque down, angle tightening process!

Chrs

Mark

[Hendrous]

Howdy,
Got the parts I ordered today and they've sent me a three hole Elring gasket instead of the no hole I requested. Not sure if it was a simple oversight or they just thought it makes very little difference.
Can someone tell me how much difference is there between the 3 hole and no hole?

Im tending to think it probably isn't enough to worry about. I mean surely this motor wasn't fitted with a no hole originally and I am pretty sure the block was never shaved back so why would top dead centre be above the factory levels? Or does it vary a bit straight from the factory?

Any advice appreciated. Would hate to put it all back together and have a piston crack the head in half.

Chrs

Mark

[Tank]

Does it say anything in the TDi 300 overhaul manual, otherwise do a search on the Forum or Google it, they (LR) wouldn't make different thickness gaskets if it wasn't necessary,Regards Frank.

[justinc]

thicknesses are available to ensure clearance between piston and head, the orignal engine wouldn't have had a no hole, unless it had been rebuilt and severely decked. There are measurements for piston protrusion in the overhaul book, I would say if the engine is untouched since new, a 3 hole should be fine, but if in doubt always measure.

JC

[Hendrous]

Thanks again for the responses.

I know for sure the block hasn't been decked so I reckon i will go with the 3 hole.

I've sanded back the block and there are still little matchhead size blue stains on it from the underside of the last gasket. At least I think they're stains because you can't feel them on the surface, it's like the steel is tarnished blue in the pattern of these matchead sized spots. I reckon I would be wet dry sanding for a week to remove those marks.
Also I've used a bit of inox while sanding, is it imperative to clean this off 100% before the gasket goes on? I'm wondering on the one hand is the inox ok to prevent rust or is it bad because the gasket has some resin on the underside which is designed to adhere to the block. Which is it?
Frank I know you said get it clean enough to eat your dinner off, but does that simply mean get rid of anything that was stuck to it and then leave it rust proofed with a little spray of WD or innox

Chrs

Mark

[Tank]

Thanks again for the responses.

I know for sure the block hasn't been decked so I reckon i will go with the 3 hole.

I've sanded back the block and there are still little matchhead size blue stains on it from the underside of the last gasket. At least I think they're stains because you can't feel them on the surface, it's like the steel is tarnished blue in the pattern of these matchead sized spots. I reckon I would be wet dry sanding for a week to remove those marks.
Also I've used a bit of inox while sanding, is it imperative to clean this off 100% before the gasket goes on? I'm wondering on the one hand is the inox ok to prevent rust or is it bad because the gasket has some resin on the underside which is designed to adhere to the block. Which is it?
Frank I know you said get it clean enough to eat your dinner off, but does that simply mean get rid of anything that was stuck to it and then leave it rust proofed with a little spray of WD or innox

Chrs

Mark
You can leave the inox on to protect it from rust till you are ready to install the gasket and head, but use some thinners or brake clean to remove any oil/inox residue and yes it should be clean enough to eat off, no oil on either surface, Regards Frank.

[Hendrous]

Howdy,

Took a little longer than I thought and there were some unexpected twists and turns, but I just turned my disco over and it fired up and it's humming nicely. I'm kind of surprised and very happy to get a result (although I suppose it is a little early to jump around as I haven't driven it far yet).

Many thanks to everyone for the tips and especially Frank for taking my call when I could not for the life of me get the thermostat housing back on.

For anyone attempting a head gasket on the 300tdi- remember to put the thermostat housing on before you put the head back on, or don't even take it off in the first place. It is very hard to get at it once the head is on. I at least put the two lower bolts for the thermostat half in the head after reading a post here and assumed it would be easy enough to fit the thermostat at the end.
Ended up having to get bend a 10 mm spanner with a blow torch and grind half of it away to get to the lower left bolt, but eventually I got the little blighter tight.

The other thing I would mention for any novice backyard mechanic is be sure not to wind the crankcase anti clockwise...I did this a little when trying to work out the tappet settings and Frank advised me that can be a big stuff up if the timing belt slip off a cog. Seems i got away with that..Set the tappets by aligning the notch on the crankcase with the arrow in two stages, and I just took a deep breath before I turned it over. I figure if the timing belt was out it wouldn't be sounding good or running at all.


Chrs

Mark

[Tank]

Mark, further to your last PM to me can you ring me on 0407103320 anytime, Regards Frank.

[justinc]

Mark, further to your last PM to me can you ring me on 0407103320 anytime, Regards Frank.

Gentleman and a scholar Frank:D

JC