Traction control

[olbod]

If I get a new Defender I think I would stick with the factory traction control untill Ashcroft come up with a suitable diff and locker fix.

Now the question.
I have never owned a vehicle with traction control and I have read on many occasions that traction control is no good in sandy conditions, EG: beach etc.
How do these late model Defenders handle it ?
Can the traction control be turned off ?
If so, is the centre lock diff good enough to handle, on its own, hard desert sandy conditions ?
Not interested in going along the beach anymore, been there done that.

Ta.

Robert.

[Leroy_Riding]

Cant comment on Sand, but my puma 2.2 TC had me spinning all 4 on a clay hill and handled me lifting a tire no problemo, driving the mud wiht the center diff unlocked and in highrange in mud no issues what so ever the TC light flickers on and off when its working but no noticible loss of momentum, and with the CDL locked and in low range and steep rocky inclines it flickers on and off but again no loss of momentum, im happy with it I dont think ill get lockers for a long time now! (had them in my old 4x4 without TC and needed them all the time with this the TC is doing the trick so far!)

[101RRS]

Problems with traction control is caused by owners not knowing their systems and how to get the best out of it - plus a bit of urban mythology.

Remember TC brakes the wheel that has not got traction transferring drive to the wheel that has traction and when both wheels are turning at the same speed no traction control is applied.

Older systems like my Freelander 1 required generous use of the accelerator to get the wheel without traction to spin and activate TC whereas newer systems in my RRS (and I guess the newer Defender) really do not need a lot of accelerator as the system is much more sensitive.

Resisting the urge to lift the throttle is the key to getting the most out of TC.

Garry

[Psimpson7]

, driving the mud wiht the center diff unlocked and in highrange in mud no issues what so ever the TC light flickers on and off when its working but no noticible loss of momentum,

Do not do that.. All you are doing is ****ing your centre diff.

If you are off road and it a situation where you are likely to lose traction. lock the cdl.

[frantic]

Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=87)
You can have your cake and eat it to. Get ashcroft locker+rear axles and if your a bit flush front axles n cv's.(my next want)
The traction control in my 02 td5 110 wagon worked well but i have never tried to turn it off but i have heard if you do it may affect the ABS not 100% sure? I have the the TC combined with the rear detroit in the salisbury(last year with them in:D) in my def works very well (along with maxi axles in the back).

[KarlB]

I have had no issues with the ETC on my 2010 Def 90 (including in sandy conditions). The TEC in MY12 Defenders operates across all 4 wheels while with earlier Pumas, the ETC operates independently front and rear.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[Loubrey]

Robert,

When I first got the Puma 90 I found that on very loose sand like highly trafficked dunes, the TC has a tendency to slow your momentum a bit as it works to stop the spinning wheel (which quickly turns in all 4 wheels).

This was however at least 50% operator error as I got to know the TC system (my first after many years of 300Tdi's) and the correct amount of throttle. The remaining 50% is however still the TC system as the car will stall (or fight the anti-stall) rather than bury itself with spinning wheels. This is in itself not a bad thing as a "failed ascent backup" can be done very safely.

Same as you though, I've done the beach and desert thing in the past and I prefer the slow and steady technical stuff these days. In these conditions the TC is unstoppable...

[goingbush]

Traction control works by braking the spinning wheel, i.e. the wheel that has lost traction. So, unless the braking is only momentary, you will lose momentum, which you do NOT want in sandy conditions.

This is an issue for me as we go on extended outback trips towing an off road van, under certain I do not want to be losing any traction.

Like you I have absolutely no interest in beach driving.

I considered diff locks but that makes the traction control redundant.

I opted for Detroit True Trac front & Rear ,

Traction control and Truetracs complement each other. You sacrifice a little traction/off road performance compared to a full locker but it isn't very much and even less so with Traction Control and a Truetrac. Unless you are intentionally and only looking for the most challenging terrain in which to run the rig, you probably won't notice much difference in performance. Truetracs are also quieter, easier on axle shafts and more predictable in some conditions such as slippery side hills.

[101RRS]

Traction control works by braking the spinning wheel, i.e. the wheel that has lost traction. So, unless the braking is only momentary, you will lose momentum, which you do NOT want in sandy conditions.



If the spinning wheel has no traction as it is spinning - how does locking it cause a loss of momentum when power is transferred to a wheel that has traction and not doing anything? If anything momentum will be maintained or increased.

This has not been my experience in older TC systems and the newest as well.

Garry

[PAT303]

Garry,you said it yourself,urban myth.It's no different to people saying you can't bleed the fuel system on a TDCi or the electrics will crap themselves as soon as you hit dirt etc etc,the T/C will only work on the wheel that DOESN'T have traction. Pat

[goingbush]

If the spinning wheel has no traction as it is spinning - how does locking it cause a loss of momentum when power is transferred to a wheel that has traction and not doing anything? If anything momentum will be maintained or increased.

This has not been my experience in older TC systems and the newest as well.

Garry

Good Point, & makes sense but what I found is the Defender is better in loose sand with the ABS fuse pulled out than with the Traction Control working.

ALSO the fact that Im towing, the problem is excaccerbated .

[Loubrey]

Good Point, & makes sense but what I found is the Defender is better in loose sand with the ABS fuse pulled out than with the Traction Control working.

I agree as well and believe me I'm a massive supporter of Pumas, so this is not intended as a negative blag.

What I found though is that as you power up the dune and a wheel loses traction, the ABS/TC stops/slows that wheel to transfer power to the other three wheels and 90% of the time it's enough to crest the dune. However, if on a very long and steep dune a second and/or a third wheel loses traction it does the same, thus applying brakes to 2 or more wheels. Therefore the wheel or wheels with traction (and theoretically all the remaining power) has no chance of overcoming the loss of momentum and will enevitably also spin and get stopped - hence a stall...

This is a condition unique to soft dunes and I've found it nowhere else and the TC system on my 2010 works perfectly and I love it.

[olbod]

Thank you for all of the replies, as always very interesting.

But.
Probably getting into a hyperthetical and unnecessary area but can the TC in a TDCi be turned off or isolated ? That is the question.
If so, would just using its centre diff lock be more or less effective in handling that big sandy dune ?

With my old D1 I have never needed anymore than CDL to handle the dunes I have pointed it at. Sometimes a couple of runs at it but never defeated or risked breaking something.

Perhaps nobody has found it necessary to try it but an interesting question I think and I wonder what the outcome would be !!!
TC vs CDL with a DCi Defender.
Might be worth the experiment at Big Red.

Cheers.

Robert.

[101RRS]

Perhaps nobody has found it necessary to try it but an interesting question I think and I wonder what the outcome would be !!!
TC vs CDL with a DCi Defender.
Might be worth the experiment at Big Red.

Cheers.

Robert.

The test would have to be TC and CDL vs CDL.

TC does not replace a CDL.

Garry

[Loubrey]

Robert,

Short answer: There is no switch and TC is always on. It does have a fuse that some chaps take out to disable TC on certain sand environments. I've personally not done it and I don't think I would be inclined to either. Way past the age where I feel I need to prove what my car is capable of... :D

300Tdi's would run up and down dunes all day long with CDL only, so we know what non-TC equiped 90's are capable of, but take a Puma accross uneven ground, ruts and rocks and it's in a class of it's own...

[PAT303]

Thats been my experience with both the L322 and TDCi,in cross axle tracks simply point them and let them drive across,the L322 had the advantage of having a switch on the dash to turn the stability/traction control off. Pat

[DeanoH]

Can't comment about TC on a defender but can re SWMBO's D2a.

Whilst crossing the Simpson Desert (west to east) a couple of years ago TC was a definite advantage NOT a liability. The D2a is a TD5 auto, was heavily loaded but not overloaded and had poly air bags on the rear with standard LR shocks.
I found that in the afternoon the TC operated more than in the morning. This was due to shocker fade causing the vehicle to 'bounce' more than it normally would. The TC would operate to compensate for the loss of traction due to faded shockers and compensate accordingly. The poly airs would act as dampers as coils don't have the natural dampening ability of leafs and prevented the suspension from bottoming out.
So from my experience the combination of auto trans, poly airs, hot shockers and TC was a good one.
Re the std. shockers. I replaced these with Pedders foam cell shocks in Alice Springs. A very good shocker I'd had on previous 4WD's but unfortunately they have small really crappy mounting eyes, nothing like the big 'landrover eyes' on the std shocks. The eyes/mounts quickly crapped out and I ended up re-installing the original factory shocks. $1000 down the drain!!!

On a similiar vein, TC and ABS use the same sensors. On another trip towing a small off road van I found the ABS to be bloody lethal, as I tried to slow on dirt the bloody ABS would let go as the wheels built up a bit of a buffer and increased braking distance by a large margin. Very dangerous. Eventually the ABS crapped out and all was well, unfortunately it came good the next morning :(. If I were to tow again on loose dirt I would definitely disable the ABS for safety reasons.
The ideal of course would be to disable ABS but keep TC but I don't know if this is possible.

Deano:)

[isuzurover]

If the spinning wheel has no traction as it is spinning - how does locking it cause a loss of momentum when power is transferred to a wheel that has traction and not doing anything? If anything momentum will be maintained or increased.

This has not been my experience in older TC systems and the newest as well.

Garry

I think it is more the case that (some) momentum has been lost by the time the TC activates.

However the brakes are removing some energy from the system which could be used to power the vehicle.

For a given amount of engine power, a vehicle with twin lockers would have higher average momentum on a slippery surface than an identical vehicle with TC (instead of lockers).

[Summiitt]

On my 110 puma, I found that you need to lock the CDL to get the traction control working properly, you also need to adjust your driving style,in a steep hill climb, loosing traction normally without TC would mean a stall start and have another go, with the TC and CD-locked you simply need to maintain constant (low) revs, to allow the TC to grab,in some cases this may take up to 20-30 seconds, but it will eventually pull itself up.On some really really steep climbs in the vic high country, my 110 would go as far as a twin diff locked cruiser on 33s, and the defender was stock! Once you get use to it, its one of the tightest TC systems on the market.

[gitney]

Hi guys, I'm definitely no authority on the matter but I've driven on a fair bit of sand in my puma and with CDL locked the only times I've ever seen my traction control light flicker is when I'm pretty much going to stop anyway. Just at the last few seconds as its bogged in and coming to a halt.

[Loubrey]

Just to clarify matters a bit...

My Puma 90 has never been bogged in sand to such an extend that I needed to accept a tow or any assistance for that matter :D

Correct tyre pressure and a superbly capable vehicle ensures that. THe discussion about the TC was regarding its reaction and functionality on very long dunes in excess of 30 degrees incline. When there is no grip left a non-TC vehicle will continue to spin and either spin it's way to the top or bury itself.

I have personally found that on very steep, long and soft dunes as is found around the far north of Perth the TC has a tendency to bleed momentum when grip fails and will stop and stall the car rather than let it bury itself. This is not a bad thing as recovery can be done safely without anyone needing to dig near the back of a vehicle stopped on an incline.

Writing about it is not a critisism of the car or the system, but merely sharing experience with fellow Puma owners.

[olbod]

My inquiry is not a critisism either.
Besides asking how they perform I was also wondering if the TC could be turned off or disabled because I was thinking that it is an electronic device. So, is the TC electronics bullet proof, will it never fail, if it does, will it go into fault mode and immobilise the vehicle, requiring a dealer with a black box to reset it ?
From your replys it seems that you can remove the TC fuse, so it seems that a failure wont leave you stuck waiting for a flat bed. Or do you have to pull the fuse before a failure ?
I like to know these things.
Mental preparedness in the scrub is just as important as carrying a spare hose or fuse and a roll of fencing wire, eh.

Cheers.

Robert.

PS: these inquiries are just that and have no bearing on whether or not I would own one.
Every boy should have at least one Defender in his life, eh.

[OffTrack]

So, is the TC electronics bullet proof, will it never fail, if it does, will it go into fault mode and immobilise the vehicle, requiring a dealer with a black box to reset it ?

TC/ABS failure results in those functions being disabled, not the vehicle being immobilised.

The capability to deal with ABS troubleshoot and repair requires access to a diagnostic tool, but it's been a while since that demanded a visit to a Dealer.

The original Nanocom was released in 2008 and the Bearmach Hawkeye followed shortly afterwards in 2009. Both tools will give you the ability to work on the electronic systems including ABS. Not sure if these cover the latest siemens systems.

https://blackbox-solutions.com/shop/?browse=NANOCOM%20EVOLUTION

http://www.bearmach.com/downloads/Diagnostic/Hawkeye_12pp_pages_d.pdf

[olbod]

TC/ABS failure results in those functions being disabled, not the vehicle being immobilised.

The capability to deal with ABS troubleshoot and repair requires access to a diagnostic tool, but it's been a while since that demanded a visit to a Dealer.

The original Nanocom was released in 2008 and the Bearmach Hawkeye followed shortly afterwards in 2009. Both tools will give you the ability to work on the electronic systems including ABS. Not sure if these cover the latest siemens systems.

https://blackbox-solutions.com/shop/?browse=NANOCOM%20EVOLUTION

http://www.bearmach.com/downloads/Diagnostic/Hawkeye_12pp_pages_d.pdf


Thanks.
I will be checking it all out regards the diagnostic software available, including as a last resort, what the dealer uses and if that stuff is portable.
If this stuff was portable, I would make it available to all those in reach and in need. Thats what Landy folk do, eh.

Robert.

[OffTrack]

Thanks.
I will be checking it all out regards the diagnostic software available, including as a last resort, what the dealer uses and if that stuff is portable.
If this stuff was portable, I would make it available to all those in reach and in need. Thats what Landy folk do, eh.

Robert.

The Nanocom and Hawkeye cover what the dealer systems are capable of in terms of reading codes and realtime information, plus altering settings. Where they lack is the dealer systems computer assisted diagnosis.

There is a used dealer system on eBay at the moment with bidding starting at $2000. It consists of a laptop, interface, cabling and software. The Nanocom and Hawkeye are in the range of $500-700 new.

Where the small hand held units are great is that they are small and will fit in a glovebox or centre console. You'll find most owners consider part of their traveling tool kit.

Many members have Nanocom's and Hawkeye's and are happy to assist other members, but as always the more, the merrier.

cheers
Paul

[Allan]

I have the T.C. switchable on our TD5 90 because someone told me it was needed for sand driving, debateable I have found out since, but on the Puma 110 I haven’t bothered. I did a lot of soft sand driving in the Puma just north of Coral Bay and boat launching of the beach at Middle Lagoon in the Kimberley’s and at no time found any problems with it, in fact it was almost unstoppable. As many have said, tyre pressure and getting used to the vehicle and the T.C. makes all the difference. I have an air locker in the rear diff and have never used it thus far, should have spent the money on something else. I did consider fitting a switch to this vehicle also but have thus far not found a need to and I am not sure if by doing so it will register a code every time I use it.


Allan

[Naks]

As many have said, tyre pressure and getting used to the vehicle and the T.C. makes all the difference.

Indeed, and correct gear ratio to achieve required momentum also makes all the difference in sand.

At a LR-sponsored sand driving course, the instructor told me to engage low range, as he was used to the Td5.

I kept getting bogged down during the first part of the course when others were flying up the dunes. As a rule everyone was down to 1 bar pressure, so it wasn't that.

I then took it out of low range and with some experimentation found that in these particular conditions, 3rd high was the optimum gear.

So play around until you find the optimum gear ratio for the particular conditions you find yourself dealing with :)

[sooly]

Hi guys,
I spoke to my LR service manager about pulling the fuse on the ABS or installing a switch to deactivate the TC. He told me it would definately bring up a code fault. It may not disable the vehicle but would need to be reset by the dealer.Cheers

[DeanoH]

Indeed, and correct gear ratio to achieve required momentum also makes all the difference in sand.

At a LR-sponsored sand driving course, the instructor told me to engage low range, .................................................. ...

I then took it out of low range and with some experimentation found that in these particular conditions, 3rd high was the optimum gear.

So play around until you find the optimum gear ratio for the particular conditions you find yourself dealing with :)

Momentum is everything when crossing dunes. As for low range, perhaps the instructor meant 'use low 4th' . This is my favourite gear for sand dunes as the gearbox is connected straight through (no gearing) at 1:1 ratio, so little chance of busting any of its internals.

Deano:)

[olbod]

Hi guys,
I spoke to my LR service manager about pulling the fuse on the ABS or installing a switch to deactivate the TC. He told me it would definately bring up a code fault. It may not disable the vehicle but would need to be reset by the dealer.Cheers


Yep, its that need to be reset by the dealer bit that I want to dispence with !!!
Not just with regard to the TC and ABS question but with any other situation within the new Defender that would leave one stuck in the Simpson needing a dealer to reset the thing.

I know nothing about the new Defender electronics so I am none the wiser
about how much there is on board that might immobilise the vehicle.

When you travel on your own you need to be self sufficient !!

Cheers.

Robert.

[Allan]

Yep, its that need to be reset by the dealer bit that I want to dispence with !!!
Not just with regard to the TC and ABS question but with any other situation within the new Defender that would leave one stuck in the Simpson needing a dealer to reset the thing.

I know nothing about the new Defender electronics so I am none the wiser
about how much there is on board that might immobilise the vehicle.

When you travel on your own you need to be self sufficient !!

Cheers.

Robert.

Hi Robert,
It would only log a code, this would in no way disable the vehicle as far as i'm aware

Allan

[Loubrey]

As long as you don't get the electronics wet, there is actually very little that will immobilise you. Logging codes is mostly the car "tattle taling" to the dealer as to what you did with and to it...:D

[olbod]

To add a bit to all this, I would not really be concerned with the TC perfomance ( although I am interested in how good it is ) because I would be fitting diff locks. They work most of the time and dont rely on the vehicles electronics.

I would not be deterred in travelling anywhere in a new Defender if the only diagnostic tool I had was a multimeter.
But it would be a warm and fuzzy feeling if at the same time I had on board a diagnostic tool so that I would not need to invite a dealer along
to reset something, eh.

In the last fifty years I have owned six Landrovers, my current twenty year old Disco being the most modern. In the scrub I have always been able to patch them up to keep them going. Nothing major has broken because I am careful about how I approach stuff and always maintain the vehicle to a high level.
But these new fangled electronic gizmo's worry me about how easy they can immobilise a vehice and the need for diagnostic tools to reset something.
Getting my head around it because the Bro has a P38 which I am involved in maintaining.
When I get my new Defender I will feel much better if I have said diagnostic capability on board.

Cheers.

Robert.

PS: Am I being over cautious ? I dont think so.
Been hard pressed many times but havent done a perish yet.

[TimNZ]

To add a bit to all this, I would not really be concerned with the TC perfomance ( although I am interested in how good it is ) because I would be fitting diff locks. They work most of the time and dont rely on the vehicles electronics.

I would not be deterred in travelling anywhere in a new Defender if the only diagnostic tool I had was a multimeter.
But it would be a warm and fuzzy feeling if at the same time I had on board a diagnostic tool so that I would not need to invite a dealer along
to reset something, eh.

In the last fifty years I have owned six Landrovers, my current twenty year old Disco being the most modern. In the scrub I have always been able to patch them up to keep them going. Nothing major has broken because I am careful about how I approach stuff and always maintain the vehicle to a high level.
But these new fangled electronic gizmo's worry me about how easy they can immobilise a vehice and the need for diagnostic tools to reset something.
Getting my head around it because the Bro has a P38 which I am involved in maintaining.
When I get my new Defender I will feel much better if I have said diagnostic capability on board.

Cheers.

Robert.

PS: Am I being over cautious ? I dont think so.
Been hard pressed many times but havent done a perish yet.

A lot has to go wrong with a new defender for it to disable itself. Nearly all the on engine sensors have a dafault setting if they fail. The only real show stoppers are the throttle pedal sensor and the crank angle sensor, (even if this fails the engine will keep running on the cam angle sensor). I personally have a faultmate extreme, I purchased this because it covers all the systems on my 110, (and to carry out the pilot correction learning - @LR, the engine has to be warm before you can do this correctly!), however I'd look closely at the Nanocom Evo now it's available.

The only big problem I can see with the electronics is that the ABS and Alarm ECU's are under the seat where the run the risk of being flooded. However these can be moved up and under the center cubby box.

I was going to fit diff locks to my 110, but I haven't bothered because the traction control is so good, even in the soft WA sand. The other problem with fitting lockers is LR will void your entire drive train warranty.

Cheers,

[101RRS]

In the last fifty years I have owned six Landrovers, my current twenty year old Disco being the most modern. In the scrub I have always been able to patch them up to keep them going. Nothing major has broken because I am careful about how I approach stuff and always maintain the vehicle to a high level.
But these new fangled electronic gizmo's worry me about how easy they can immobilise a vehice and the need for diagnostic tools to reset something.


PS: Am I being over cautious ? I dont think so.
Been hard pressed many times but havent done a perish yet.

The electronic gizmos as a general statement are just the reporting mechanisms - the actual fault will generally be something mechanical (npt true 100% of the time). Rarely will "electronic" faults stop you in a Puma (maybe different in a RRS or D3/4 where suspension come into it with silly programming).

I really think you are worrying about nothing on a Puma.

Garry

[goingbush]

I'v unplugged every sensor & electrical connection from the TD5 just to see what happens & what I need to carry as a spare, The only single thing that stopped the show was the Crank Sensor , A cheap easy to replace $30 part.

The Defender was able start & drive with everything else hanging off, save for both temp sensors. The water sensor on the front is the same as the fuel temp sensor on the back, It will run fine with one off, but not both.

So all you need to carry are a Cheap as Crank Sensor and equally cheap Temp sensor (incase the both fail)

[isuzurover]

I'v unplugged every sensor & electrical connection from the TD5 just to see what happens & what I need to carry as a spare, The only single thing that stopped the show was the Crank Sensor , A cheap easy to replace $30 part.

The Defender was able start & drive with everything else hanging off, save for both temp sensors. The water sensor on the front is the same as the fuel temp sensor on the back, It will run fine with one off, but not both.

So all you need to carry are a Cheap as Crank Sensor and equally cheap Temp sensor (incase the both fail)

I think you missed the computer and injector loom???

[goingbush]

I think you missed the computer and injector loom???

And the fuel pump.

[sooly]

I remember reading a post from someone who did a creek crossing and got the little black box (very technical terminology I know)above the accelerator pedal wet and that was a show stopper.

[olbod]

Thank you all for the very informative reply's.
I am learning so much about the new Defender without actually owning one yet and I am looking forward to it.
I had a reply from BAS. Below
What they have is better than nothing, eh.
I have also asked what they have in development for the 2.2 systems.
When I get a Defender I will not change anything untill I have done some trips and seen for myself what's what.
Except perhaps to add the Mulgo long range tanks.

Cheers.

Robert.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Were you thinking of the 110 station wagon or dual cab, or the 90? If any of the others, you won't have the option of traction control as far as I understand it anyway.

[KarlB]

Were you thinking of the 110 station wagon or dual cab, or the 90? If any of the others, you won't have the option of traction control as far as I understand it anyway.

In Australia ETC/ABS comes standard on Defender 90, 110 SW, and 110 Crew Cab. It is optional on 110 HT, and 110 HCPU. It is not available on any 130.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[olbod]

Mark.
If you are asking me, i want the 110 hardtop with the opional rear sliding widows, in Keswick green.
Be cute, eh

Cheers.

Robert.

[OffTrack]

Thank you all for the very informative reply's.
I am learning so much about the new Defender without actually owning one yet and I am looking forward to it.
I had a reply from BAS. Below
What they have is better than nothing, eh.
I have also asked what they have in development for the 2.2 systems.
When I get a Defender I will not change anything untill I have done some trips and seen for myself what's what.
Except perhaps to add the Mulgo long range tanks.

Cheers.

Robert.

Hi Robert,

BAS sell Blackbox Solutions diagnostic products, they don't develop their own. The head honcho of Blackbox Solutions post to AULRO under the name BBS Guy and is a regular poster to the Electronic Diagnostics forum. If you are interested in what the status of the 2.2 is you can always send him a PM, or post to diagnostics area of the forum.

It's worth noting Blackbox Solution also offer a discount on equipment purchases to AULRO members. There are some conditions - being a member for more than 6 months and a minimum number of forum posts - to prevent people signing up purely to get the discount.

Blackbox Solutions Ltd. -- Products Page (http://www.blackbox-solutions.com/products.html)

cheers
Paul

(Not affilated in any way shape or form with BBS, just a satisfied owner of one of their products)

[gavinwibrow]

x 2
(Not affilated in any way shape or form with BBS, just a satisfied owner of one of their products)

[olbod]

In Australia ETC/ABS comes standard on Defender 90, 110 SW, and 110 Crew Cab. It is optional on 110 HT, and 110 HCPU. It is not available on any 130.

Cheers
KarlB
:)


Hmm, I suppose the hardtop has the same diff,s ?
Without the TC, they would need something like locking diff,s then.
If lockers fitted without the optional TC, I wonder if that would still void the warrenty ?
Perhaps that would be an important question to ask a dealer before placing an order. Or maybe better to just order the optional TC.
I wonder if you can have that without the ABS ?

Cheers.

Robert.

PS: Thanks for that info Paul.

[Allan]

Hmm, I suppose the hardtop has the same diff,s ?
Without the TC, they would need something like locking diff,s then.
If lockers fitted without the optional TC, I wonder if that would still void the warrenty ?
Perhaps that would be an important question to ask a dealer before placing an order. Or maybe better to just order the optional TC.
I wonder if you can have that without the ABS ?

Cheers.

Robert.

PS: Thanks for that info Paul.

Yes the warrenty goes. I had a locker fitted when my vehicle was just 2 weeks old, no warrenty on the rear diff after that. Even a pinion oil seal weep they would not touch. They suggested I take it to A.R.B. to fix. The remainder of the transmission was still warrented though. I would order the T.C. option, as I said in an earlier post, I have yet to use my locker and we go to some remote areas to play.

Allan

[KarlB]

ETC and ABS are all the same electronic braking system. ABS braking is a very good thing.

[copba]

If you are asking me, i want the 110 hardtop with the opional rear sliding widows, in Keswick green.
Be cute, eh

Cheers.

Robert.

Nice.

Would look great with the white roof :)

Can you still get a white roof? If not paint it.

[DeanoH]

ETC and ABS are all the same electronic braking system. ABS braking is a very good thing.

ABS is brilliant on bitumen but IMHO bloody lethal when towing on loose surfaces.
ABS works by detecting when a wheel has locked up (under braking) and then releasing the brakes on that wheel and re-applying braking force on that wheel without locking up. A brilliant and effective safe braking system when used on a FIRM surface.
ABS is absolutely bloody useless when used on a loose surface. For example outback dirt roads. When braking on loose surfaces a 'bow wave' of loose material is built up ahead of the wheels which is the major stopping contributor when breaking hard on such a 'ball bearing' surface. ABS negates this condition by applying and releasing the brakes thus preventing the formation of this 'bow wave'.
When towing (especially an unbraked trailer) this is very obvious. Breaking distance under hard breaking is dramatically increased.
Whilst ABS may be a life saver on firm surfaces it is bloody scary on loose surfaces.

Deano:)

[rovercare]

ABS is brilliant on bitumen but IMHO bloody lethal when towing on loose surfaces.
ABS works by detecting when a wheel has locked up (under braking) and then releasing the brakes on that wheel and re-applying braking force on that wheel without locking up. A brilliant and effective safe braking system when used on a FIRM surface.
ABS is absolutely bloody useless when used on a loose surface. For example outback dirt roads. When braking on loose surfaces a 'bow wave' of loose material is built up ahead of the wheels which is the major stopping contributor when breaking hard on such a 'ball bearing' surface. ABS negates this condition by applying and releasing the brakes thus preventing the formation of this 'bow wave'.
When towing (especially an unbraked trailer) this is very obvious. Breaking distance under hard breaking is dramatically increased.
Whilst ABS may be a life saver on firm surfaces it is bloody scary on loose surfaces.

Deano:)

Correct, pure evil in the slippery stuff, nothing like mashing the big pedal and all you feel is pulsations and no stopping....reach for the handbrake;)

[olbod]

The LRA site shows the Hardtop with a white roof. I dont like it and I would colour code it green if it came with white. I chose the green because it would be less visible if parked off in the scrub overnight.

I would also choose not to get the ABS TC option. I would stick with the centre diff lock and and diff locker combination. Works more than fine in me Disco.
I have a bit of a theory with regard to which end to put the locker in for starters. Perhaps wrong.
If the Puma has a rear diff problem with backlash and stuff due to a poor design, perhaps a locker in the rear working in real hard terrain would only make the rear diff problem worse due to the strain on it ? What do you Blokes think ?
Perhaps for starters it might be better to fit the locker in the front diff untill Ashcroft or someone else makes available a suitable rear diff and locker conversion ? To hell with warranty on that diff.
I would also be fitting the HD double cardian front tailshaft replacement. Does anyone have a link for that supplier.
Would also fit black King wheels with zero offset.

Another concern I have is the nine hundred kilometre round trip for service and warranty work. The trip to Townsville is a mongrel and boring with a stay of God knows how long in a motel.
Depending on what the warranty work was required I think I would rather fix it myself or pay my mechanic to do it rather than let some dealer apprentice fool around with it.
I have sent an email to LRA asking if I would void the warranty if I was to engage LandRover Spares here in Mackay to carry out the routine log book service. Still waiting for a reply.

I have enclosed modified a pic of a Hardtop from the LRA site to get a bit of an impression. Colour coded the roof and added a rear window thingy.
I like a room with a view.
Looks cute dunnit.

Cheers.

Robert.

[101RRS]

I would also choose not to get the ABS TC option. I would stick with the centre diff lock and and diff locker combination. Works more than fine in me Disco.


Well if you want to stay in the age of the dinosaur why not just stay with your Disco.

I would never buy a new car that did not have ABS - it is a life saver and with decent tyres is not such an issue when braking offroad.

Garry

[PAT303]

Agreed,just buy a Tdi defender.Seriously you blokes think too much,just remove your blinkers and buy the vehicle and after 6 months you wonder why you ever listened to the knockers,don't worry about warranty work,LR allows you to take it to a third party to be repaired and still honours your warranty if you use genuine LR parts,a TDCi defender with TC and an Ashcroft torque biased diff center would be very capable offroad. Pat

[Drover]

Bailey Morris link provided -

http://www.baileymorris.co.uk/4x4.asp (http://www.baileymorris.co.uk/4x4.asp)

I ordered mine, arrived 6 days latter, about $650 to the door.

These are a very nice piece of kit
.

[isuzurover]

The LRA site shows the Hardtop with a white roof. I dont like it and I would colour code it green if it came with white. I chose the green because it would be less visible if parked off in the scrub overnight.

I would also choose not to get the ABS TC option. I would stick with the centre diff lock and and diff locker combination. Works more than fine in me Disco.
I have a bit of a theory with regard to which end to put the locker in for starters. Perhaps wrong.
If the Puma has a rear diff problem with backlash and stuff due to a poor design, perhaps a locker in the rear working in real hard terrain would only make the rear diff problem worse due to the strain on it ? What do you Blokes think ?
Perhaps for starters it might be better to fit the locker in the front diff untill Ashcroft or someone else makes available a suitable rear diff and locker conversion ? To hell with warranty on that diff.
I would also be fitting the HD double cardian front tailshaft replacement. Does anyone have a link for that supplier.
Would also fit black King wheels with zero offset.

Another concern I have is the nine hundred kilometre round trip for service and warranty work. The trip to Townsville is a mongrel and boring with a stay of God knows how long in a motel.
Depending on what the warranty work was required I think I would rather fix it myself or pay my mechanic to do it rather than let some dealer apprentice fool around with it.
I have sent an email to LRA asking if I would void the warranty if I was to engage LandRover Spares here in Mackay to carry out the routine log book service. Still waiting for a reply.

I have enclosed modified a pic of a Hardtop from the LRA site to get a bit of an impression. Colour coded the roof and added a rear window thingy.
I like a room with a view.
Looks cute dunnit.

Cheers.

Robert.

Given your issues with servicing and the changes you want to make, it soulds like you would be better off buying a Puma just out of warranty and swapping the axles with your disco 1 if you have lockers.

EDIT - and a TrueTrac geared LSD + TC is 99.9% as good as lockers apparently

[rovercare]

Well if you want to stay in the age of the dinosaur why not just stay with your Disco.

I would never buy a new car that did not have ABS - it is a life saver and with decent tyres is not such an issue when braking offroad.

Garry

Your definition of off road is far different to mine, abs is a death trap in som places

[DeanoH]

............................................. ABS - .................... with decent tyres is not such an issue when braking offroad.
Garry

please explain ?

Deano:)

[101RRS]

please explain ?

Deano:)

Please explain what??? How ABS works.

Simply ABS unbrakes a locked wheel to maintain steering - so if a wheel has more grip it does not lock.

So offroad and onroad with grippier tyres ABS activates less. HT tyres offroad when heavy braking ABS will be on all the time - ATs and MTs much, much less.

With my Freelander on BFG ATs ABS rarely activates (but constantly on with bald HTs) and I have never had ABS activate on my RRS in normal offroad driving and braking.

[rovercare]

Please explain what??? How ABS works.

Simply ABS unbrakes a locked wheel to maintain steering - so if a wheel has more grip it does not lock.

So offroad and onroad with grippier tyres ABS activates less. HT tyres offroad when heavy braking ABS will be on all the time - ATs and MTs much, much less.

With my Freelander on BFG ATs ABS rarely activates (but constantly on with bald HTs) and I have never had ABS activate on my RRS in normal offroad driving and braking.

If you play on more difficult terrain, it becomes an issue, may not where you take your vehicles, but that's not necessarily the same as others

[OffTrack]

If you play on more difficult terrain, it becomes an issue, may not where you take your vehicles, but that's not necessarily the same as others

Out of interest which model LR's have you experienced this behaviour with?

I'm curious because in 1993 WABCO was granted a patent on logic for an all-terrain mode of ABS operation which allows more wheel slip to occur. The description of the patent makes note of the wedge of built up material in front of the locked wheel "causing substantial braking". The invention described in the patent attempts to balance the retention of steering control derived from abs while maximising braking forces on soft and slippery surfaces. The all-terrain mode allows the brakes to lock for short periods.

The technical material for the Wabco Type-D braking system makes mention of the availability of this optional all-terrain mode. While I don't have any hard evidence to support the claim I suspect that LR have used either low range or locked CDL to trigger all-terrain abs operation in vehicles equipped with derivatives of the Type-D system.

If I am correct then the loose surface braking behaviour of post 1998 Defenders, post-1999 P38a's, pre-2001 Freelanders, and Discovery 2's will be quite different in low range|locked cdl operation to earlier vehicles.

I've noticed that Disco 1 and early P38a drivers tend to be the most vociferous opponents of ABS and I wonder if this is one of the reasons?

cheers
Paul

[Loubrey]

Not that too many of us in this section gets to use it, but that is one of Terrain Response's functions...

I've personally witnessed a D4 on trials with a full payload and max trailer weight stop perfectly safely on a skid pan using all it's electronic trickery. The test was specially aimed at European ice conditions, but gravel would be a breeze in comparison to that.

Fair enough that the Defenders TC is significantly simplified in comparison, but the MY12's system is again a major leap on the MY10's for example.

[OffTrack]

As I said my previous post was fairly speculative, and having found a "prior art" description in a later WABCO patent I'm not sure that LR have implemented the off-road feature.

It will be easy enough to confirm however. Below 25mph/40kph off-road mode should selectively lock brakes to enhance stopping power, and below 10mph/16kph it should be possible to lock the brakes without any ABS intervention.

[rovercare]

Out of interest which model LR's have you experienced this behaviour with?

I'm curious because in 1993 WABCO was granted a patent on logic for an all-terrain mode of ABS operation which allows more wheel slip to occur. The description of the patent makes note of the wedge of built up material in front of the locked wheel "causing substantial braking". The invention described in the patent attempts to balance the retention of steering control derived from abs while maximising braking forces on soft and slippery surfaces. The all-terrain mode allows the brakes to lock for short periods.

The technical material for the Wabco Type-D braking system makes mention of the availability of this optional all-terrain mode. While I don't have any hard evidence to support the claim I suspect that LR have used either low range or locked CDL to trigger all-terrain abs operation in vehicles equipped with derivatives of the Type-D system.

If I am correct then the loose surface braking behaviour of post 1998 Defenders, post-1999 P38a's, pre-2001 Freelanders, and Discovery 2's will be quite different in low range|locked cdl operation to earlier vehicles.

I've noticed that Disco 1 and early P38a drivers tend to be the most vociferous opponents of ABS and I wonder if this is one of the reasons?

cheers
Paul

Predominantly d2 and early p38s

[rovercare]

As I said my previous post was fairly speculative, and having found a "prior art" description in a later WABCO patent I'm not sure that LR have implemented the off-road feature.

It will be easy enough to confirm however. Below 25mph/40kph off-road mode should selectively lock brakes to enhance stopping power, and below 10mph/16kph it should be possible to lock the brakes without any ABS intervention.

You've got to get below 16kph though:D

I haven't played with later stuff in the bush, I'll be disabling the abs in my own p38 for bush work

[OffTrack]

You've got to get below 16kph though:D

I haven't played with later stuff in the bush, I'll be disabling the abs in my own p38 for bush work

Below 40kph the wabco off-road/all-terrain mode uses a "deep-cycle" mode that allows the wheels to build up a "wedge" before unlocking to regain steering control. The big question is IF it is implemented by LR on Type-D abs systems :confused: Just need to find a quiet gravel road to play on - which is easier said than done when you live 5km from the GPO. :(


I've attached a chart from the patent showing the progression from normal abs, to deep-cycle, to fully locked.

46129

Once the wheel are fully locked they'll slide regardless of abs.

cheers
Paul

[101RRS]

If you play on more difficult terrain, it becomes an issue, may not where you take your vehicles, but that's not necessarily the same as others

No issues on any terrain if you are driving sensibly.

[olbod]

I dont have an issue with Abs, I have never had a vehicle with it.
My decision to buy a Defender rather than use my Disco is because it is a V8, 3.5, cant sleep in it, cant carry enough fuel for extended long trips unless overweight and besides, I love it and nowadays I would not want to risk causing it any pain.
My decision to go without the ABS TC option is not based on their ability question but purely financial, I dont think I need it. I think for what I plan to use it for, the diff lock and winch is a better option. I want to revisit the Canning, Madison, pop over to the geographical Simpson centre and check out the Gunbarrel. I also like to bush bash, I intend some of that in Lenny country. In the eighties I bush bashed around the Lake Amadeas region for a few weeks, came in from the north. Always wanted to go back for another look.
I travel on my own not in convoy ( but in time if anyone wants to tagalong on a trip, fine ) so a new reliable truck with the right capability so as not to be a burden on others for rescue, needs some thought. That's why I ask questions and appreciate answers.

I rather like the idea of putting in D1 axles, front and rear ( not mine )
Fitted with Ashcroft lockers and HD stuff. I didn't know they would fit.
I will talk to Graeme at LandRover Spares as he would know about such things.
Nuh, must be new, you have solved the problem re: service so I will take pot luck with warranty. Dont think they would want to know anyway with the conversions that I would make !!!

Thanks.

Robert.

[olbod]

Bailey Morris link provided -

http://www.baileymorris.co.uk/4x4.asp (http://www.baileymorris.co.uk/4x4.asp)

I ordered mine, arrived 6 days latter, about $650 to the door.

These are a very nice piece of kit
.


I forgot to mention.
Thanks Drover.

Robert.

PS: I will be fitting that style of bullbar also and winch with plasma.

[DeanoH]

Please explain what??? How ABS works.
.................................................. ......

No, your statement that ............'with decent tyres (ABS) is not such an issue when braking offroad'.


Locking wheel(s) on a firm surface increases braking distance (as traction is reduced), ABS compensates for this by releasing and re-applying the brakes to a point before traction is lost thus improving braking efficiency and vehicle control.
In a situation where there is less traction available (loose surfaces) wheel lock up is more prevalent when braking which leads to longer braking distances. In this situation the build up of material in front of the wheels becomes the major factor in slowing down. The wheel may be locked up and skiding but the vehicle is slowing because of this 'wall' in front of the tyre(s). ABS in releasing and re applying the brakes causes the vehicle to drive over the wall thereby reducing braking efficiency. This effect is very noticable when towing a trailer on a typical outback loose dirt/gravel surface. The reason ABS is ineffective on loose surfaces is because it 'assumes' traction is the main contributor in slowing the vehicle.
Whilst tread choice effects traction on firm surfaces it becomes less relevant as traction decreases on loose surfaces.
When you're braking heavily on a ball bearing surface and being slowed by your 'bow wave' tread type doesn't matter as much. Whether you've got HT's, AT's or MT's isn't as important as traction is not the main player in slowing down.
There could be an argument that skinny tyres could give more effective braking (than wider tyres) as they may more easily cut through the loose layer to an underlying firm surface therby increasing traction. eg. My old SII with its factory 6.00 X 16 pizza cutters was suprisingly good in mud as its really skinny wheels readily cut through mud to the underlying hard surface providing traction.
Re the Wabco system, it certainly is not on SWMBO's 2004 D2a but may be fitted to something like the RRS. I don't know. What I do know is that ABS can be a very dangerous, even potentially lethal on loose surfaces regardless of what tyres you've got.

Deano:)

[DeanoH]

No issues on any terrain (with ABS) if you are driving sensibly.

Rubbish.

So Wabco spent all this effort to overcome a non-existant problem ?

We all take our 4WD's to different places and over varying terrain. ABS is a potential killer in some situations and people should be aware of this. One of the advantages of this forum is that information is passed to others and this helps to make our 4WDing experience safer and more enjoyable.

It is aparent that you have not driven in these conditions. Whilst it may not be your thing to do so it is dangerous and misleading to infer that the issues/dangers involved don't exist or only occur if one is not 'driving sensibly'.

Deano:)

[PSi]

Someone's been thinking about this problem and offered a solution.
Now, to find out how well it works.

All-New Ford Ranger Raises the Bar on Safety | Ford Motor Company Newsroom (http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=35332)

(New Ford) Ranger’s Anti-Lock Brake System (ABS) provides additional safety, especially with Gravel Road Logic that further improves stopping distances on loose surfaces, which are common in countries with a lot of unsealed roads.

[101RRS]

Rubbish.

So Wabco spent all this effort to overcome a non-existant problem ?

We all take our 4WD's to different places and over varying terrain. ABS is a potential killer in some situations and people should be aware of this. One of the advantages of this forum is that information is passed to others and this helps to make our 4WDing experience safer and more enjoyable.

It is aparent that you have not driven in these conditions. Whilst it may not be your thing to do so it is dangerous and misleading to infer that the issues/dangers involved don't exist or only occur if one is not 'driving sensibly'.

Deano:)

If you say so.

[OffTrack]

....

[OffTrack]

If you say so.

The D2a manual has the following disclaimer relation to ABS:


It cannot reliably compensate for driver error or inexperience on difficult off-road surfaces.

I'm not suggesting anyone is inexperienced but it does seem to be a bit of a "get out of jail free" card for LR.

[rovercare]

No issues on any terrain if you are driving sensibly.

Abs is not required at all for vehicles driven sensibly, it's for when non sensible things happen

It may be fine for where you potter in the feelander or rr, how much off road have you done in those vehicles?

[101RRS]

Abs is not required at all for vehicles driven sensibly, it's for when non sensible things happen

It may be fine for where you potter in the feelander or rr, how much off road have you done in those vehicles?

Quite a bit on the Freelander - more than enough in the RRS for the short period of time that I have owned it.

Yes if you race around at high speed relative to the road conditions on poor tyres you will have ABS chattering away non stop with extended braking distances. Most issues related to poor braking with ABS are not related to slower tracks but higher speed gravel roads here ABs can cause considerable extended braking distances if you are not aware of the issues.

Know the limitations and the advantages of ABS and drive to conditions.

They are my experiences - if others disagree - fine.:D

garry

[austastar]

Hi,
Not sure if I have got this correct or not, but I believe that the traction control does not work in reverse.
We needed to have a vehicle do a 3 point turn on a snow covered steep road, and the driver was surprised that he had wheel spin and no TC light showing.
cheers

[PAT303]

I must admit after having three LR vehicles with ABS and quite a few Jap vehicles also I found the poor handling of the Japanese vehicles played a bigger part in being dangerous than the ABS. Pat

[OffTrack]

Below 40kph the wabco off-road/all-terrain mode uses a "deep-cycle" mode that allows the wheels to build up a "wedge" before unlocking to regain steering control. The big question is IF it is implemented by LR on Type-D abs systems :confused: Just need to find a quiet gravel road to play on - which is easier said than done when you live 5km from the GPO. :(


I've attached a chart from the patent showing the progression from normal abs, to deep-cycle, to fully locked.

46129

Once the wheel are fully locked they'll slide regardless of abs.

cheers
Paul

Sorry to reanimate this thread but I came across a bit of information that indicates LR did use the off-road ABS function. In a book titled the essential guide to choosing and using your 4wd vehicle published in 2004 by LR Australia, there is a section on Abs and 4wds which reads in part:


Even the experts disagree about whether ABS is an advantage or disadvantage off-road. For light off-roading, ABS can be helpful in keeping control of the vehicle, especially on slippery surfaces like sand, mud, or rain-swept tracks.

However in deep mud or gravel, locked wheels can actually stop more quickly, the debris forming a "braking wedge" in front of the locked wheels. For this reason, some manufacturers have developed smarter systems that can defect different types of road surface and change the cycle of brake pumping accordingly.

These "all-terrain" anti-lock brakes provide the best all-round performance -good stable braking on wet roads and short stopping distances on loose surfaces. Land Rover models feature "all-terrain" ABS.

You can definitely lock the brakes on the D2 at low speeds on slippery mud, and I'd suspect other LR models of the same era equipped with all terrain abs would behave in a similar manner.

The speeds for change over between the various braking modes can be varied by the manufacturer so they may differ from the speeds mentioned above.

Cheers
Paul

[carlschmid2002]

Hi,
Not sure if I have got this correct or not, but I believe that the traction control does not work in reverse.
We needed to have a vehicle do a 3 point turn on a snow covered steep road, and the driver was surprised that he had wheel spin and no TC light showing.
cheers

Mine does. I have a MY12 D90 and it definitely got me out of one hell of bog hole one day.

[scarry]

What I do know is that ABS can be a very dangerous, even potentially lethal on loose surfaces regardless of what tyres you've got.

Deano:)

Exactly what i found with all the D2's i owned over the years.
You get used to it & drive to the conditions,particularly at high speeds on gravel roads that had a lot of loose stuff on the surface.