bring our boys back or not

[bob10]

Ok, this seems a good time to ask the question of our forum members, do we bring our people back from Afganistan or not? For me , bring them back, now. Bob

[Slunnie]

Ok, this seems a good time to ask the question of our forum members, do we bring our people back from Afganistan or not? For me , bring them back, now. Bob
Defence would be the best judge of that. As I understand it they consider that the job is done, so I assume they will shortly begin their exit plan.

[SuperchargedSport]

Its my understanding the locals dont want them there anymore and are become hostil to them. (listening to BBC)

I think they need to come home, they have made as much progess as can be done.

[boofdtl]

Being exarmy my self i have mates over there and they have been told not until mid 2013 at this time....
But i think we have done a top job so lets bring them home all together................

[THE BOOGER]

If the job is done properly them bring them home as planned but lets not make the same mistake george bush snr madewith iraq and have to go back in 10 years time do it once and be done with it/them:( seen a report that said 70% of the population will follow who ever is in charge so not much loyalty there:(

[p38arover]

seen a report that said 70% of the population will follow who ever is in charge so not much loyalty there:(

Explain how that is different to voters here?

[Slunnie]

Explain how that is different to voters here?
They have a level of respect for their leadership, whoever that may be. We don't.

[akelly]

It's a political decision, not a military strategic one.

[THE BOOGER]

Explain how that is different to voters here?

The only real difference is the extremes of the govt over there, ours are pretty middle of the road compared to the Taliban etc. I would like to believe that if we some how ended up with and extreme govt Of either left/right or religious the majority would oppose them:(

[THE BOOGER]

They have a level of respect for their leadership, whoever that may be. We don't.

Respect or fear?

[p38arover]

I would like to believe that if we some how ended up with and extreme govt Of either left/right or religious the majority would oppose them:(

How? Civil revolt? We don't have any guns any more.

Military coup? Do the armed forces have any bullets for their guns?

Overthrow of the govt. would have to wait for the next election.

[THE BOOGER]

How? Civil revolt? We don't have any guns any more.

Military coup? Do the armed forces have any bullets for their guns?

Overthrow of the govt. would have to wait for the next election.

1.possibly and no comment to the second part:D
2 our military is very apolitical so proberbly not(and they only keep a weeks supply of ammo in the system)
3 if we ended up with an extreme form of govt elections usally dont count anymore

[olbod]

For my way of thinking I would say, bring them home now.
Its a problem that will never be solved in any way in which America would want. Docile, subjued and with a total desire to keep America safe.
Na, not gonna happen.

The only way to stabilise Afghanistan would be to clean out Pakistan.
You remember just a few short years ago that the taliban had moved into
Pakistan and were making inroads there and taking over towns and territory. Had the poor Paki's jumping around in fear.
Then that push sort of died out and went on the back burner. No big battle was fought to bring the taliban under control. Why, what happened ?
I kind of think that the Paki's done a deal. Leave us alone and we will support you in regaining your territory in Afghanistan. At the moment the taliban need a base, protection and arms and money, ok, Pakistan. Continue to make the war unpopular to the west untill the yanks pull out.
Not a very difficult proposal.
Then when they are gone, the taliban will have free rein and their territory
back with Pakistani help and support.
Not much that the yanks can do about that because they have their hands tied in Pakistan because those buggers have the bomb. Must keep them friendly to a degree as we dont want nuclear arms in the hands of
suicidal ragheads. Pakistan would not want that either unless really pushed.
The USA and allies will never win the battle in Afghanistan as they would like.
Some might say, yeh but look at Iraq. we won there. Won what ? All that happened was we made a regime change, not an American style democratic new mindset.
Iraq was never a threat to America but the sheites are happy for their intervention.
Bring our guy's home I say.
We in the west face a far more insideous threat to our way of life and is not being addressed. But that is a different subject.

Robert.

[p38arover]

I don't think one can win a war against guerillas. If you can't identify your enemy, it becomes quite difficult.

If we start with the American War of Independence, can anyone name a war against guerillas which the military has won? The Malaya Campaign perhaps as the enemy weren't indigenous Malays (pre-Malaysia) but ethnic Chinese. Australian Forces were there for 13 years (or more - my B-I-L was there when I married Elisabeth in 1970 so that means we were there for at least 20 years)!

[DeanoH]

Afghanistan is and will probably remain a fuedal tribal ****heap, the Afghan 'tribes' have been killing each other for centuries, it is what they do best.
A few years intervention by the 'infidel' west will ultimately make no difference at all to the 'status quo' of Afghanistan. A countrys culture cannot be changed in five minutes, especially to an American inspired democracy, even an Islamic one. There's an oxy-moron for you 'Islamic Democracy'.

Americas stated goal in Afghanistan was to deny 'terrorist' training and support to its enemies post 9/11. This goal has probably been achieved, they moved to Pakistan, one of Americas allies !!

The British invaded Afghanistan in the 19th century, were forced out and slaughtered in their retreat, over 15,000 killed. There was one survivor.
The Russians invaded Afghanistan in the 20th century, were also forced out with over 60,000 casualties.
The 21st century sequel is America with its allies, including Australia, 'liberate' Afghanistan from the Taliban. So far allied deaths in Afghanistan approach 3000, I don't know how many injured.
Afghan casualties must number in the tens, hundreds ? of thousands. Certainly no winners here.

For me the whole mess was summed up by a picture in the Melbourne Age several years ago. It showed a group of Australian diggers on patrol walking through a poppy field. Here were our troops protecting a crop of opium poppies for the local farmers so that it could be harvested and turned into heroin. This owner of this 'cash crop' would then pay his cut to the Taliban who would use the money to help kill the Aussie troops guarding it in the first place. As a bonus (to the Taliban) the end product would then be shipped to Australia (and other countries) to help kill our own children.

Whilst 'realpolitick' may mean that Australia needs to show on ground support to our major ally, this has been done. Bring the troops home.


Deano:)

[akelly]

What makes you think the soldiers were protecting the opium crop? That's an odd conclusion.

[ramblingboy42]

has anyone asked "the boys" how they feel? every one of them volunteered and knew they probably end up in Afghanistan. They get extremely well paid and they all enjoy the adventure of warfare. Its only the media again beating up the situation and making maximum coverage of any event. Recruiting is at an all high. When I was soldier there was nothing we wanted more than a ****fight. Over there they get them often. The adrenaline fix is almost undescribable.This is not WW1 or WW2.Its a completely different scenario.I know no-one wants see another die or be injured but the waiting list to go war in afghanistan is quite long.

[bob10]

When I was soldier there was nothing we wanted more than a ****fight. .
Do you have qualifying service? Bob edit If you don't you have no right to speak for those who have, if you do , you need to see a counsellor, I can recommend one to you.

[tonic]

I was behind our efforts in Afghanistan until I heard our foreign affairs (not politicians) experts discussing Pakistan after Bin was found and dispatched. We also just helped an ex SAS member obtain his shot firers ticket and his comments after multiple tours also have changed my mind.

On the first hand, why was Bin able to live in Pakistan so comfortably for so long? Our expert foreign affairs people I watched on various shows discussed this at length and suggested that if Pakistan is helping those in Afghanistan we are fighting it is now a waste of time and we should come home.

To that, the Pakistan doctor who took the blood to confirm the DNA of Bin is being held on treason. The USA has asked for him to be released to them along with his family to be relocated to the US. To this date I am unaware if the US has been successful. On that, I think we should not play cricket with them or any other sport and look at other embargoes until this doctor and his family have been released.

The SAS bloke told us about the tribal stuff in Afghanistan, too much to go into here, but you get the idea that once we leave it will all go back to as it was before and therefore my view is now that we are wasting our time, resources and putting our people at risk for no good reason at all any longer. We got who we wanted, lets come home.

[bigcarle]

IMHO they have been fighting with themselves over there for centuries and i dont think we are EVER going to change that. again IMHO based on this opinion i do not think they should have gone in the first place!

[ramblingboy42]

Bob, yes I do have qualifying service. Speaking from the inside .Every soldier over there volunteered knowing they would inevitabley end up in Afghanistan and most if not all were/are looking forward to it. The preparation,training and build up to overseas deployment is exciting.Why do you think the defence force currently has little problem recruiting? I dont need counselling or anything like that, its how it is.I had a number of psychiatric counselling sessions for different roles in my military career and passed each one.

[Ferret]

Afghanistan is and will probably remain a fuedal tribal ****heap, the Afghan 'tribes' have been killing each other for centuries, it is what they do best.

I came across this quote awhile ago. I think it describes the structure of society in that region of the world perfectly.


Me against my brothers until a cousin comes;
Me and my brothers against my cousins until a neighbor comes;
Me and my brother and my cousins against the neighbor until a foreigner comes;
all of us against the foreigners.

I don't know the original source of the quote but I do know you don't change that way thinking by invading and imposing democracy. The concept is foreign to tribal society.

It's time to come home.

[DiscoMick]

They've been following a program to hand over to the local military/police so if that can be done then they should come home.
What happens after that is their problem.
We're apparently going to be subsidising their government for some years.
Personally, I'm pretty pessimistic about the long-term results, but I'd like to think it hasn't been in vain.

[p38arover]

I'd like to think it hasn't been in vain.

I think it has been.

[p38arover]

I dont need counselling or anything like that, its how it is.

The wife of a friend of mine has been to Iraq several times to do counselling of troops (dunno about Afghanistan) in her role as a psych in the Army. Maybe I should ask her of the affect those paces are having on troops.

[dick180641]

I do believe that the original quote was heard by Lawrence of Arabia and was
:- You, me and my brother against the world,
Me and my brother against You, and
Me against my Brother........

[austastar]

Hi,
for a modern foreign army fighting against local militia on their home turf it is always going to be a tough call.
Especially for the West, with the potential threat of media exposure to a sensationalist press tilting the playing field and seriously compromising their ability to overcome the odds against them.
Did our 'leaders' learn absolutely zilch from involvement in Vietnam?

cheers

[d3syd]

What makes the West think that they can transplant democracy (something that took a long long time to evolve) into a region where feudal triballism has been a way of life for time immemorial. We are not fighting a conventional enemy, but one with less structure than the Vietcong, multiple factions, and fanatical religious zeal.

Bring our guys back, they've done a good job and did what they could in a hopeless situation. Unfortunately, the moment the coalition is gone, it will be almost as if they were never there within a short few months. All those lives lost for what:confused:

The War on Terrorism can NEVER be won until the root cause of Arab discontent is addressed. This is of course the way the State of Isreal conducts itself and the perception of double standards in the way the West, particularly the US deals with the issue.

I say sort the Isreal problem out and then leave them all alone, it is the only way there will be any degree of long lasting peace with the West. Yes they will still be fighting amongst themselves, but this has been happening since shortly after Muhammad died and deep denominational rifts developed within Islam. Sticking our nose into their problems will only be a repeat of what the British and then the Soviets went through with Afghanistan, resulting in a severe nose bleed.

[austastar]

Hi,
there is a wonderful cartoon, I think it is in one of the Lonely Planet guides on Afghanistan, where a group of be-turbaned, whiskery, sword wheeling vagabonds are cheering from there ridge top at the departing Russian Army.
The caption is 'At last we are free.'

The next frame depicts them all sword fighting each other, blood and guts, limbs lopped and total wild eyed mayhem.
The caption is 'To return to the 18th Century.'

cheers

[bob10]

Bob, yes I do have qualifying service. Speaking from the inside .Every soldier over there volunteered knowing they would inevitabley end up in Afghanistan and most if not all were/are looking forward to it. The preparation,training and build up to overseas deployment is exciting.Why do you think the defence force currently has little problem recruiting? I dont need counselling or anything like that, its how it is.I had a number of psychiatric counselling sessions for different roles in my military career and passed each one.

If ever you feel the need to talk to someone, I can help. Don't carry the load on your own. I tried, and it almost ruined my life. Bob

[ramblingboy42]

If ever you feel the need to talk to someone, I can help. Don't carry the load on your own. I tried, and it almost ruined my life. Bob

I dont need to talk to anyone.I need no help. I have no load to carry. Whatever you did that almost ruined your life was your problem. I t seems to reflect in a lot of your posts.

[bob10]

I dont need to talk to anyone.I need no help. I have no load to carry. Whatever you did that almost ruined your life was your problem. I t seems to reflect in a lot of your posts.
Thank you for the assessment, I just hope your attitude doesn't come back to bite you , all the best for the future, Bob
btw, what happened was on active service

[ramblingboy42]

not really meant to be derogatory Bob. All our experiences in active service reflect differently upon one another. Anzac day coming up.....time to reflect upon those who have suffered as a result of war.

[85 county]

Explain how that is different to voters here?

I read a statement like that and think what a wally. and then i think again and realize that thinking like that is a product of a soft life in Australia. which is in its self why Australia is such a good place.

put simply, you are submissive to who ever has the most power ( perceived or other wise) a god has bore power, or a gang with guns has more power. BUT a god with a gang with guns has absolute power. its simple survival.

the most dangerous time as always is when the natives get news that you are pulling out. IE a new gang will be in charge. so the smart ones will turn on there old mates ( the gang departing) so they can claim to have been supporting the new Gang when they fill the vacuum.

so stuff the moral argument as we may see it because they do not. we can debate morals they are just thinking about survival.

and remember this is only one of 3 places where a British army was eliminated ( one survivor)
also remember the British returned and leveled Kabul. now this may have been just a few decades ago but unlike us other people have longer memory's.

Lastly, it is good for Australia. Like the UK and northern Ireland a few years ago, the ADF boys ( and girls) get to play for real. some cut it some leave ether way we end up with a better DF.

[85 county]

The wife of a friend of mine has been to Iraq several times to do counselling of troops (dunno about Afghanistan) in her role as a psych in the Army. Maybe I should ask her of the affect those paces are having on troops.


sheeesh she would be most of the problem then. have to justify there funding.

keep the boys on task longer say 2 years, chuck in the odd sky pilot.

Mates and confidence, that works not some over paid cow asking questions and bringing back what you shove way down back

[p38arover]

sheeesh she would be most of the problem then. have to justify there funding.

keep the boys on task longer say 2 years, chuck in the odd sky pilot.

Mates and confidence, that works not some over paid cow asking questions and bringing back what you shove way down back

I shall have to ask her (and her husband who was a Captain in the Army) — she's a Major (or was the last time I looked) — if there was any value in her work.

[85 county]

I shall have to ask her (and her husband who was a Captain in the Army) — she's a Major (or was the last time I looked) — if there was any value in her work.

or you could ask me, or some one else who has spent 22.3% ( yes i did the maths) of my life on task and loud. and the lack of diggers singing the praises of the PPSS

[lambrover]

Proof that Psychs for the Army are useless is some of the idiots that get through recruiting.

No body takes SSO's serious any way civi's in uniform. I think Defence has them for political reasons to appear to be doing the right thing.