D2a Manual vs Auto

[Rok_Dr]

Hi All

In looking around for a D2a TD5, I've come across the odd manual transmission model. I hadn't thought about a manual transmission before given the predominance of autos and at present have an open mind to either.

So the question is... what are the pros and cons of the manual verses the auto, behind a TD5 in a D2a, particularly reliability/durability, repair costs, drivability etc.

My intended usage will be towing a 1.8-2tonne caravan and a bit of offroading, nothing too extreme... mainly bush/station tracks and sand/beach runs.

Cheers

Steve

[Nicky]

For your use, Auto and diesel every time.

[MR LR]

The manuals are much faster and more fuel efficient towing, We used to tow with a manual D2, but we use the Navara now, the chassis is nowhere near as good as the D2 for towing, but the power is better. in answering your question, i would have a manual any day of the week.

Cheers
Will

[SuperchargedSport]

Hi Steve,

I have had several of both.

The manual is faster, better on fuel and better/stronger for towing.

But the td5 power band is much more suited to driving with the auto.

Once you have driven/owned both the manual feels, hard to use and cumbersome to drive. The auto does it smoother.

I have towed with a td5 chipped with lpg gas injection aswell. With the auto it was smooth and very easy to tow. I owned at the same time a td5 manual chipped and jumping into the manual it seemed like a chore.

But for braking with a heavy trailer, fuel economy on a long run and being able too choose the gear when towing i still like the manual.

If an auto has done alot of towing without a larger oil cooler or frequent changing of the oil, it is common for them to die. So you may be up for a new auto if you buy the wrong car. Also stalling them up at the lights or continually trying to pull off on hills with a heavy trailor also kills them.

So if your wife is driving the car in and out of carparks during the week the auto is the go.

If its only a go fishing car/ tow the boat on the highway the manual is good.

[alpick]

And don't forget, in lo range the auto can function as a manual, and does it very well.

[scarry]

Auto all day for me.Hard to beat in the bush,particularly in the sand.

Sure,the manual will be slightly better on fuel,but the turbo lag can be a PITA at times.

The auto needs to be serviced properly regularly,and will be very reliable.

The TD5 clutches are very expensive to repair,if they do fail.

[robbotd5]

Hey Rok Dr.
I have a D2a manual. Before it was modified, it was a bit of a slug; especially off boost. After the mods, it is still a bit dead until the boost kicks in. My wastegate is wound up to 21psi and it is great on boost. With my 2400kg van behind it, the aceleration is at best lesurely but what can you expect?. With the van, hill starts sometimes requires low range, which is no problem because of the gears depth and the ability to operate without the diff locked (take note Toyota and Mitsubishi). Only driven an auto once when I test drove it new so memories a bit fuzzy but and auto is a good thing. Like superchargedsport said, an auto is a good daily driver for the missus, a manual is good for a "lifestyle" .
Regards
Robbo

[SuperchargedSport]

Yes i forgot about that.

Thank you 'alpick'

You can also put it in low range diff lock. Turn the car off, turn it back on and traction control is now off.

But i prefer traction control on i think it really works well.:)

A tune and a VNT turbo from here http://bellautoservices.co.uk/products/vnt-vgt-turbo/td5-vnt-vgt-turbo/

And lag will not be a problem.

[gavinwibrow]

Yes i forgot about that.

Thank you 'alpick'

You can also put it in low range diff lock. Turn the car off, turn it back on and traction control is now off.

But i prefer traction control on i think it really works well.:)

A tune and a VNT turbo from here TD5 Defender and Discovery Vnt Hybrid VGT Turbo | Diesel performance tuning and economy remap chip tuning for Landrover Defender Discovery TD5 Puma TDV6 TDV8 (http://bellautoservices.co.uk/products/vnt-vgt-turbo/td5-vnt-vgt-turbo/)

And lag will not be a problem.
Pardon my ignorance, but for a TD5 auto, given the auto revs up to 2,000 rpm + before anything much happens, even on lightish throttle, is the VGT type turbo better off in a manual, or does it make significant improvements for the auto too? I get that it works better right across the rev range, but wonder if the auto configuration is a limiting factor?
Cheers

[SuperchargedSport]

Pardon my ignorance, but for a TD5 auto, given the auto revs up to 2,000 rpm + before anything much happens, even on lightish throttle, is the VGT type turbo better off in a manual, or does it make significant improvements for the auto too? I get that it works better right across the rev range, but wonder if the auto configuration is a limiting factor?
Cheers

It actually works better in the auto, the boost comes on earlier and as you take off you have more available power from the get go.

I think from memory boost isnt produced until something like 2500 or 2750rpm standard it will be from say 1500rpm with a vnt

And a vnt constantly adjusts its self while drive to be the most efficient it can, so on an auto when you accelerate and they always seem to feel 'slow to respond' the vnt will dramatically improve that.

[OffTrack]

Yes i forgot about that.

Thank you 'alpick'

You can also put it in low range diff lock. Turn the car off, turn it back on and traction control is now off.

But i prefer traction control on i think it really works well.:)


Of course the TC disable trick only works with the pre-facelift D2's.

At the time of the D2 launch the LR CEO claimed the Td5 Auto best represented the character of the Disco 2.

[Rok_Dr]

Hi Guys

Thanks for all the good information. I do have to agree (based on other 4wds I have driven) that autos are a better at hiding the turbo lag and improving drive ability. That said I am pleasantly surprised that the manual seems to have a good rep for reliability now. Prior experience, mainly classic RR related, tended to give the feeling that the ZF auto was a pretty bullet proof piece of kit.

Yep I do so love the open centre diff. Low range in the Range Rover made it so easy to back the van up my driveway, without worrying about the drive train binding up.

Thankfully I have a nice old 4AGE Corolla for everyday duties so the Disco, when find one I am happy with, will be mainly for holidays etc rather than a daily driver. I'm also lucky? to be happily single ATM so I only have to myself (and the dog :)) to convince as to any purchase.

So looks like I can live with either, but I'll certainly look more critically at the history of any automatics I look at.

Cheers

Steve

[Fluids]

When we were looking for ur D2, we wanted an manual. Both of us have only ever owned and driven manuals. We looked and everytime we found a manual that ticked the boxes, it was too many km's for our liking.

When we seemed like we'd found the ideal vehicle, it turned out to be auto, and on a leap of faith we bought it ... no regrets. Not one.

It's great offroad & on the beach. The auto makes offroading a doddle. It tows fine, but I don't tow very often, and when I have to, it's been a large car trailer (recovering kids cars). I find the best approach is to put it in 3rd. Accelerate until it locks the torque converter, then it pulls like a train ... once up to 85-90kmhr, shift to 4th, ease back on the accelerator a bit to allow the TC to lock in 4th, then maintain a comfy 90-95kmhr. I'm surprise how well the 2.5L engine does (no chipping, just turbo wastegate wound up a bit) towing 2-2.25T ... and it's quiet economical doing it to (I've checked it at around 12-13L/100km on the open road).

We don't do any city driving, but the auto would make life easier, but I'm sure it would be haevier on fuel than the 12L/100km average we get for all driving combined (with tyres around 4% oversize).... which includes a bit of beach/dune driving as we live at Stockton Beach, and those drive do use a fair bit more fuel and road or bush.

I had to learn how to "drive" the auto box to make best use of it, and I quite often find that I manually downshift to 3rd for larger hills so it holds a locked TC up the hills. Offroad with the MANUAL mode engaged in low range, the auto works like a clutchless manual holding whatever gear you select.

For us, it's sort of been a best of both worlds thing, and as I said, no regrets at all.

[twr7cx]

The small torque converter in the auto models is horrible. It is mismatched, and really crud once you've done some performance mods. I have an Ashcrofts Heavy Duty replacement here that I can wait to fit, has some great reviews.

Personally I still like my auto, only gets better with more power and hopefully once the new TC is installed.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I remember being in a traffic jam up to, over and well past the old gateway in my D1 5 speed,, 3 hours of moving twenty feet at a time.
As Fluids said,, no regrets changing to an auto with my last two,

Now if they just made a 5speed auto with top at .9:cool:;)

[twr7cx]

Running 32" (3" increase over factory) on my truck did improve the auto somewhat. The top gear is now lower revs on the highway, I much prefer it, it's quieter in the vehicle.
However, you need to increase the engines power to compensate for the decrease in acceleration from the larger tyres.

[Fluids]

Ooooooo .... wouldn't a 5 speed auto just be the ants pants in a Td5 D2 ??

My brother bought a Holden Adventra (full bag of fruit V6) and it has a 5 speed auto ... not my cup of tea, but still a bloody nice car none the less, and the 5 speed auto is just magic ... a GM LE-380 or similar ??

[twr7cx]

Ooooooo .... wouldn't a 5 speed auto just be the ants pants in a Td5 D2 ??

My brother bought a Holden Adventra (full bag of fruit V6) and it has a 5 speed auto ... not my cup of tea, but still a bloody nice car none the less, and the 5 speed auto is just magic ... a GM LE-380 or similar ??

A 6 speed ZF such as from the Falcons would be even better. Don't Mercedes do an 8 speed automatic now too?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

5 would be plenty,,
(doesnt the 6 just have two overdrives?)

but I need top/OD ratio around .9

[Fluids]

Yes, a ZF 6 speed would be good ... but isn't that an even MORE evil grey box of evil ? .... I'd need to sell a kidney just to pay for an oil change :p

... and Pedro ... 3rd is 1:1 (4th is .74) .... just put SMALLER wheels on it and drive in 3rd ;)

... and our new Impreza (6sp manual) is an overdrive in 4th, 5th and 6th !! 3rd is just under 1:1

[OffTrack]

Offroad with the sport mode engaged in low range, the auto works like a clutchless manual holding whatever gear you select.

But Kev....

How come the M lights up on the dash when you push the mode button in low range? Shouldn't it be S if it's sports mode?

:angel:

[clubagreenie]

The falcon 6sp is a completely different box. When I had mine rebuilt the guy who did it specialises in rebuilding the 6spds for street drag applications. We tried a mock up of it to the tfr and it's very different (but could be adapted) but it's wider and taller and all around a bigger job than either the cost of a well built (ashcroft or specialist) 4HP or possibly a toy auto from behind a 1/3UZ and matching tfr.

That's be my ideal combo, built 3UZ and matching auto/tfr combo.

[Fluids]

OK Mr Smarty pants ... posted edited to keep the hecklers in check ! :tease:

:p

[clubagreenie]

The danger of the falcon box is the comp is inside the PLASTIC pan so some form of sump protection would be mandatory. The wiring is massive into it and getting it to talk to the LR ecu's....

[OffTrack]

I think from memory boost isnt produced until something like 2500 or 2750rpm standard it will be from say 1500rpm with a vnt


Standard turbo is producing boost from reasonably low rpm. It depends on the load. I had the nanocom hooked up this afternoon while running some errands and respecting the 50kph back streets limit I was seeing low level boost from 1200rpm. Obviously not huge amounts down low but around 6psi @1200rpm, and up to 16psi at 1800rpm.

16psi is getting within a couple of psi of maximum standard boost, so these claims of no boost under 2000, 2500, or even 2750 rpm are waaaaaaay off the mark.

cheers
Paul

[Fluids]

Hi Paul. I don't think it's a case of no boost nder certain rpm's, but more a case of the time it takes for the boost to develop under these rpm's.

I get stuck part way up the back of a dune in the soft powdery sand. I've pretty much sunk close to the axles. I cannot proceed forward. In reverse with light throttle, thinking I can juts back down I also make no prgogress either .... so, I floor the pedal, the engine revs rise, and it appears nothings going to happen & I need to break out the shovel ... and then I reckon If I wait and count to 3 before all of a sudden there's a great burst of power and the D2 "pops" up out of the soft sand backwards ... this is from a standing / idle start.

Obviuosly, driving with some anticipation in an auto, it's far easier to keep the turbo on the boil by using the slip in the TC to get the revs up higher and have the turbo already up to speed sooner than it would be under a light throttle ... and I'm referencing sand driving here .... a bit hard to do in a manual unless you fan the clutch.

All that said, I don't find the lag to be an issue ... and the Td5 always seems to be producing plenty of boost at speed .... it's the lag between gas on and the boost rising that annoys some.

[OffTrack]

I understand where you are coming from but that is not what is being said. The claim is "no boost below xxxx rpm" not "it's a bit slow to come on".

[Fluids]

Paul, I agree ... "no boost below xxxx rpm" is wrong afaik, like you have eluded to, and I believe people are using the wrong explanation because what they really mean is "it's a bit slow to come on". By the time they've put the boot in, the engine revs (auto) are up to 2500/2700 and then the turbo is singing (the slippery torque converter doesn't help either for the fact it doesn't hit it's stall speed until around 2700rpm) ... there's definitley a lag off the line. That's where the VNT makes a difference ... low engine speeds/off the line.

My D2a with 255/70*16 ... 90kmhr / 2000rpm and the nancom shows 1.28bar (18.6psi) with the boot in going uphill with the TC locked .... no boost ? I think people are explaining it wrong. There's plenty of boost.