Series Radius arms

[normbourne]

Hi Guys,

Having experienced "wind up" when driving in low range 4wheel drive, in my series 2A, I was wondering if there would be any advantage in fitting "Radius Arms", obviously they would have to be custom made, (or would they..?)

Does anyone have any experience in such a modification..?

Thanks,
Norm.

[Slunnie]

Why? It should be able to deal with the windup. Is this for the front or rear? When you say radius arms, are you talking along the lines of anti-wrap bars etc such as:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/856.jpg

[rick130]

Transmission windup or spring wrap ?

Anti-tramp/wrap bars can be made up as Slunnie posted, but you'd need to really plan them as it's dead easy to have them restrict your travel.

[goingbush]

I don't get it, dosen't the shackle on the chassis end of the cruiser ( in Slunnies image) defeat the purpose of the radius arm !!

I would use a couple of RRC trailing arms & mount them on top of the axle instead of under it.

[Slunnie]

I don't get it, dosen't the shackle on the chassis end of the cruiser ( in Slunnies image) defeat the purpose of the radius arm !!

I would use a couple of RRC trailing arms & mount them on top of the axle instead of under it.
It remains as a leaf sprung vehicle in every respect with locating the axle and providing the spring action, the addition of the anti-wrap bar only prevents the axle housing from rotating when under load.The reason for the shackle is the action of the spring moves the axle backwards and forwards as it loads and the inflexible anti-wrap bar needs to move with it rather than by binding and working against the leaf springs - ie, the springs and the anti-wrap bar move through different arcs. You could use a radius arm, it's been done that way but you would still need to mount it to the chassis with a shackle.

[goingbush]

Ok thanks, of course, now I get it.

When the axle is torqueing the front end of the radius are is moving up/down - not fore - aft .

cheers

[normbourne]

Hi guys, Sorry about the lack of response to your posts and interest, I've been in a bit of trouble health wise and am only just now getting back to normal.
Norm.

[harry]

Hi guys, Sorry about the lack of response to your posts and interest, I've been in a bit of trouble health wise and am only just now getting back to normal.
Norm.

I hope all's well and you can try popping a wheelie with or without track rods
I have recently acquired a shorty and think I notice the same problem, but I put it down to , new to the car, out of touch with clutch starts, old engine mounts or worn springs
I think I also try to start off at the same rate as modern vehicles, which I am learning to ignore!

[normbourne]

Why? It should be able to deal with the windup. Is this for the front or rear? When you say radius arms, are you talking along the lines of anti-wrap bars etc such as:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/856.jpg
Hi Guys,

Still have health probs. But yes slunnie, that's exactly what i,m looking for.

I had intended to modify the front, but I guess it would be politic to fit them on both.....??

[rick130]

Hi Guys,

Still have health probs. But yes slunnie, that's exactly what i,m looking for.

I had intended to modify the front, but I guess it would be politic to fit them on both.....??


Only if you're getting spring wrap on the front as well.

IIRC the old, original leaf sprung Hilux used an arm on the front end to prevent spring wrap as it uses a spring over axle setup, you're less likely to get spring wrap with the spring under.

[normbourne]

Hi guys,

I've been doing a bit of reading, regarding the benefits or otherwise of filling the chassis with high density polyurethane foam.

My idea was more along the lines of preventing the build up of dust, dirt and water, (having cleaned and painted my chassis interior) thus reducing the oxygen available for corrosion.

But it turns out there are other benefits, namely, sound & vibration proofing, and, importantly, stiffening of the chassis.

Apparently there are two suitable foams available, one is applied by pouring, the other by injection, the mixing taking place via a mixing nozzle at the end of the hose.

One drawback is that if there are any cables etc. within the chassis is that they will become embedded.

But seems to me that that shouldn't be such a problem, in That it would immobilise the cabling and minimise the chafe that occurs when cables are in constant movement.

One would need to be aware of the exothermic effect when the foam cures.

All in all, it seems to be a win,win project.....!!

Anyway lads has anyone ever done this..? I would appreciate a few opinions before embarking on such a project.

Norm.

[isuzurover]

Hi guys,

I've been doing a bit of reading, regarding the benefits or otherwise of filling the chassis with high density polyurethane foam.

My idea was more along the lines of preventing the build up of dust, dirt and water, (having cleaned and painted my chassis interior) thus reducing the oxygen available for corrosion.

But it turns out there are other benefits, namely, sound & vibration proofing, and, importantly, stiffening of the chassis.

Apparently there are two suitable foams available, one is applied by pouring, the other by injection, the mixing taking place via a mixing nozzle at the end of the hose.

One drawback is that if there are any cables etc. within the chassis is that they will become embedded.

But seems to me that that shouldn't be such a problem, in That it would immobilise the cabling and minimise the chafe that occurs when cables are in constant movement.

One would need to be aware of the exothermic effect when the foam cures.

All in all, it seems to be a win,win project.....!!

Anyway lads has anyone ever done this..? I would appreciate a few opinions before embarking on such a project.

Norm.

Did you read this?
Foam Filling Chassis Rails - Experiment gone crazy - The Australian 300zx Owners Association (http://www.aus300zx.com/forum/showthread.php't=254844)

If you think it will stiffen a landie chassis then I think you are dreaming...
It may help with noise and vibration.
The biggest concern I would have is that moisture is trapped between the steel and the foam, leading to accelerated rusting - then causing all sorts of OHS concerns if you start cutting and welding a foam filled chassis.

[normbourne]

Hi Is...rover,

Well that's disappointing, regarding the stiffening, howevever, I think my primary objectives are still valid.

As regards entrapment of moisture, I've been restoring my 2A series, over 20years, all this time it has been in my workshop so it is bone dry.

That is one reason for excluding the dirt dust and oxygen, which of course, once it becomes wet will promote corrosion.

Also once filled, condensation within the chassis becomes a non-event.

Coatings and application methods, are still to be explored..!



Norm.

[Dougal]

Did you read this?
Foam Filling Chassis Rails - Experiment gone crazy - The Australian 300zx Owners Association (http://www.aus300zx.com/forum/showthread.php't=254844)

If you think it will stiffen a landie chassis then I think you are dreaming...
It may help with noise and vibration.
The biggest concern I would have is that moisture is trapped between the steel and the foam, leading to accelerated rusting - then causing all sorts of OHS concerns if you start cutting and welding a foam filled chassis.

Not surprising. To increase the stiffness of a steel box chassis you need to add something as stiff or stiffer than steel to the walls.
There are no foams or urethanes anywhere near stiff enough and its all in the wrong place to help.

[normbourne]

! I bought the vehicle in 1971, research has shown that the vehicle was built in 1967 which made the car approx 4 years old. One wouldn't have thought it, it was in a terrible state. The previous owner, I suspect, had taken it on numerous beach expeditions. Having said that, I, with my wife and daughter, Undertook a trip from Perth to Townsville, in an as bought condition. There is no doubt that we had a few probs, eg. two broken front springs, etc.but the point is the vehicle kept going....! No matter what. But over the next 20 years, I was forever cutting out rust in the chassis. Eventually I decide to change the chassis for a secondhand military chassis. This chassis was in great condition, apart from dirt and mud in the interior, which I sooned rectified. This was the beginning of a lengthy restoration which had to take second place to my establishing an electrical business and the addition of two more children to the family, hence the resto continues to this day.
My experience of rusted out chassis leads me to being quite keen to preventing it happening again. The point has been made that because of where I am located it is likely that exposure to salt will occur, how true, also of course, areas of interest to me involve the salt lakes of Australia's interior. The foam I'm proposing is that supplied by "UScomposites" and is a far cry from the $5-00 can from the local hardware store. It is waterproof, creates tremendous bond to the sub-strate and comes in various strengths. The two compounds that one mixes, are not in themselves flammable. It is the stuff from which surf boards are made which are subject to flexing. But as I say, my main reason for my proposal is to exclude mud and crud from entering the chassis in the first place, sound and vibration proofing are a bonus. If it stiffens the chassis all well & good but that's not the primary purpose.. It is not my intention to use it behind panels etc. there are numerous spray on sound deadening compounds for that purpose. I apologise for the rather lengthy comments.

Regards

Norm.

[isuzurover]

I am a big fan of galvanising. Once done you know you won't have to worry about rust for 30-50 years.

The polyurethane foam needs water to cure - so you will need to wet the inside of the chassis before applying to get the foam to expand to fill the whole cavity. I am not convinced there will not be water trapped in there - or water won't get in in some places after creek crossings, etc...
I could very well be wrong... However from what I can see the long term rust issues of foam in 4x4 chassis remain untested...

[uninformed]

there is no way you can garrantee 100% filling of the entire chassis space. There will be a day mositure gets in there and it will be trapped longer and lead to what isuzurover has said. I would bet my left nut on it.

HDG is a much better approach IMO.

Edit: It can not be waterproof AND be the same stuff surboards are made from....

[clubagreenie]

We used to do this back in the 60's/70's on rally cars in sills etc. It wll still collect moisture (it's an open cell structure) and it will rust in there. and you will never fill it entirely.

[Dougal]

As Isuzurover and Uninformed have said, galvanizing is the answer. It's the only way to guarantee steel a long life in harsh conditions.

Hot dip galvanising is the best but has a risk of warping thin steel. Chassis should be fine.
Zinc electroplating isn't quite as good but will still get in all the nooks and crannies.
Spray galvanising is as good as electroplating but can only be done externally.
Cold galvanising (zinc rich paint) is the easiest and cheapest but least reliable.

Just look at boat trailers and see how they last.

[normbourne]

It is bit late for stripping, or galvanising, the resto has progressed to the point where all the bodywork has been re-installed together with the running gear. Having said that, when I cleaned the chassis out, it received a coating of rust converter followed up with a few coats of "Kilrust" paint, with a bit of luck that should negate any internal rust problem. In any case, for rusting to continue, it will require oxygen, which of course would be in fairly limited supply once the chassis has been filled. Norm.

[roverrescue]

Norm it sounds like you are keen to do it anyway but despite the claims of US Composities 98-99% closed cell
I used that as an underfloor pour in a tinnie.
Sure it stiffened the old girl up and got rid of the banging but I can tell you that a few years after the pour vs before the pour the hull weighs 100 or so kilos more.
40 kilos of foam went in... the rest Im afraid is water despite the claimsof the manufacturer you will not exclude water being trapped.

The only way I can dry this old girl out these days is flip it upside down and leave it a few weeks.

I think in a chassis poured foam is a terrible idea - it will trap water in voids and within the structure and you will never be able to dry it out. You will rust out the chassis from the inside out.

If you dont want to HDG then get a kero gun length of garden hose and a few litres of lanox/lanolin/fishoil etc etc jam the hose attached to the gun up the rails and spray it all about while slowly withdrawing

S

[isuzurover]

...In any case, for rusting to continue, it will require oxygen, which of course would be in fairly limited supply once the chassis has been filled. Norm.

You don't need many O2 molecules, and along with the H2O, plenty will still be there...

[clubagreenie]

When I rebuilt my S2 (Many years ago) it was not an option back then to hot dip so it got all the rust cut out and rebuilt. Then plugged all the holes and filled with fish oil and left to soak for a few weeks standing up. Then drained left to dry under cover. Then did the same with lanolin based stuff (thicker and stickier coast) and let dry. Then did same with zinc cold coat paint, poured in and sloshed around and drained.
Outside was back to bare metal, zinc coated, kill rusted, orminoided (bitumen based paint) and kill rusted again.

Never saw an ounce of rust in the 6 years I had it. Wish I knew where it was now. But then again maybe I don't depending on what was done to it after.

[uninformed]

When I rebuilt my S2 (Many years ago) it was not an option back then to hot dip so it got all the rust cut out and rebuilt. Then plugged all the holes and filled with fish oil and left to soak for a few weeks standing up. Then drained left to dry under cover. Then did the same with lanolin based stuff (thicker and stickier coast) and let dry. Then did same with zinc cold coat paint, poured in and sloshed around and drained.
Outside was back to bare metal, zinc coated, kill rusted, orminoided (bitumen based paint) and kill rusted again.

Never saw an ounce of rust in the 6 years I had it. Wish I knew where it was now. But then again maybe I don't depending on what was done to it after.

how did the zinc paint bond to the fish oil/laolin blend???

[chazza]

In any case, for rusting to continue, it will require oxygen, which of course would be in fairly limited supply once the chassis has been filled. Norm.

Then rejoice; because Flood's Penetrol will stop the oxygen; it is easy to apply; relatively cheap and can be over-painted. Forget the foam it won't stop the water,

Cheers Charlie

[clubagreenie]

Once it was left to completely dry out it was fine. Like the fish oil, many people have complained that they can't paint over treated surfaces but being oily it needs to dry right out and essentially set. I built the chassis and then left it for a couple of years while I did the body, engine, gearbox etc. Eventually put it all back together.

[chazza]

Zinc electroplating isn't quite as good but will still get in all the nooks and crannies.


No it won't!

Electroplating inside a shape such as a cup, is exceedingly difficult to do and involves all sorts of trickery with extra anodes; electroplating the inside of a chassis is mission-impossible,

Cheers Charlie

[Dougal]

No it won't!

Electroplating inside a shape such as a cup, is exceedingly difficult to do and involves all sorts of trickery with extra anodes; electroplating the inside of a chassis is mission-impossible,

Cheers Charlie

I should have said it'll get in more than spray galv will. It will get some deposits inside and the sacrificial protection is the important part.

[normbourne]

Hi guys,

Thank you one and all for the interest, advice etc. tremendous response....!

It seems to me, that the main thrust is towards pockets that are not filled and becoming repositories of water, and the eventual breakdown of the foam.

Unfortunately there is no way to check.

The ideas regarding flooding the interior with fish oil, paint etc. is certainly valid.

The problem here is still the ingress of mud & crud etc.which is the prob I was trying to solve. But having said that if the interior is well coated it really won't matter.

Mention is made of the sacrificial nature of the Zinc in the galvanising, as protection, I don't know how valid that is, but how about Zinc sacrificial anodes....?? Similar to the type used on marine craft..? Anyway it would certainly be worth a try.

Thanks again,

Norm.