Dear Mr New Defender Developer Guy

[inside]

Just some advice on developing the new Defender.

If you can't do this with the new one you have failed.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/160.jpg

[Celtoid]

Wouldn't a 'Newly Designed' Defender be water-tight? :wasntme:

[Xtreme]

Wouldn't a 'Newly Designed' Defender be water-tight? :wasntme:
After trying for 64yrs, I'd say the answer to your question is 'NO' :wasntme:

[Davo]

I think water would just interfere with the electronic cup holders in the new one . . .

[camel_landy]

Just some advice on developing the new Defender.

If you can't do this with the new one you have failed.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/160.jpg

Technically, that means you've gone deeper than the recommended wading depth... ;)

M

[Slunnie]

Just some advice on developing the new Defender.

If you can't do this with the new one you have failed.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/160.jpg

I would expect that his response would be:

Dear Sir,

IF the back of the Defender does look like that, then I have failed on multiple levels. To feed the families, pay the mortgages and pay the school fees of 3000 Land Rover employee's, including my own, and those in the outsourced companies, this new vehicle needs to outsell the current 20 units per month in Australia by about 300 units per month.

Kind Regards.

[inside]

Technically, that means you've gone deeper than the recommended wading depth... ;)

M
Or it means my 4 year old squashed Easter eggs through it and then decided to hide cream biscuits under the rubber mat. It's the simple practicality of the vehicle that is appealing, I just pull everything out and hose it down. If LR take that away then they've wrecked it.

[inside]

I would expect that his response would be:

Dear Sir,

IF the back of the Defender does look like that, then I have failed on multiple levels. To feed the families, pay the mortgages and pay the school fees of 3000 Land Rover employee's, including my own, and those in the outsourced companies, this new vehicle needs to outsell the current 20 units per month in Australia by about 300 units per month.

Kind Regards.

I guess Toyota keep selling lots of 70 series then, I'm sure the kids of the 70 series development team are eating at night.



Floor covering in cabin - Plastic/rubber

[Slunnie]

I guess Toyota keep selling lots of 70 series then, I'm sure the kids of the 70 series development team are eating at night.
I think that's the reality.

[Didge]

Love the title of this thread - hahaa

I've been thinking for a while it'd be nice to take the Defender shape and image and make our own car that's truly adapted for offroad conditions, doesn't leak for starters, isn't incredibly noisy, has a few more luxury or less agricultural features, runs on the smell of an oily rag or maybe a couple of rags, has as standard kit most of the accessories we crave and doesn't cost a fortune. Then we'd smash Toymota in the sales dept. I reckon we could do it. And it doesn't mean we have to make it in China. IF the Krauts are doing it in Europe and succeeding we can do it here. Whadya reckon? Who's in?

[clubagreenie]

Technically, that means you've gone deeper than the recommended wading depth... ;)

M

Is the recommended depth only measured from the wheels or also the roof if for instance one was to enter the wading situation say roof first?

[stealth]

The sad thing with Land Rover is the vehicle they could have, if they listened to their customers, would be absolutely fantastic.

[Slunnie]

The sad thing with Land Rover is the vehicle they could have, if they listened to their customers, would be absolutely fantastic.
Absolutely, they could improve the product so much and retain the niche.

The other sad thing is that they're redesigning the Defender into what appears to me to be for a completely different target market, as opposed to producing a new vehicle for that market, and designing a quality modern modular commercial vehicle in the next Defender.

[stealth]

The other thing I have heard people say is that what Land Rover should do is, once they have designed them, give them to the Japanese to build.

[Davo]

The Japs did start building them - that's how we got Patrols and LandCruisers, after some evolution, or devolution.

The dribbling, moronic, black-skivvy-wearing, designer undies, computer-loving, indoors-living, marketing-driven, urban fashion, soft-handed, heads-stuck-up-bums idiots who run Land-Rover these days should actually support the Defender instead of hiding it out the back with the skip bins, and then maybe their sales wouldn't be so pathetic.

"Look, Nigel, we only sold twelve Defenders worldwide in the last year."
"That's it. There's no demand. Kill it soon . . . by the way, what was the advertising budget for it?"
"We took some change from the coffee fund at head office."

I've been designing an improved Defender for years, but simply keep coming back to the original design, just with some improvements.

[ezyrama]

The Japs did start building them - that's how we got Patrols and LandCruisers, after some evolution, or devolution.

The dribbling, moronic, black-skivvy-wearing, designer undies, computer-loving, indoors-living, marketing-driven, urban fashion, soft-handed, heads-stuck-up-bums idiots who run Land-Rover these days should actually support the Defender instead of hiding it out the back with the skip bins, and then maybe their sales wouldn't be so pathetic.

"Look, Nigel, we only sold twelve Defenders worldwide in the last year."
"That's it. There's no demand. Kill it soon . . . by the way, what was the advertising budget for it?"
"We took some change from the coffee fund at head office."

I've been designing an improved Defender for years, but simply keep coming back to the original design, just with some improvements.

Here Here! Not a truer word has been said ( except they sold 13 as I bought one recently too :cool:) These pillicks seem to think that it will survive on it's past, which it wont. It still amazes me that in all the advertising its push to the rear of any pictures and does not even rate a mention when up to the 70's when the Rangie was introduced, it's predecessor was their bread and butter. I think the main problem is none of these gooseberries in Land Rover have probably never driven one as it's beneath them to bee seen in anything other than a Rangie or Disco and as for the new concept DC100, it's a bloody hairdressers car!

[ezyrama]

Bloody computers, duplicating what I say, duplicating what I say!

[Tombie]

Considering the overall use of vehicles nowadays...

The reality of their uses... Not those who dream....

Considering the company is a business, out to make a profit - by making vehicles - not making vehicles and hoping for a profit.

And considering that almost any current 4wd on the market can, and do go exactly where the Defender pilots go as well.... Leads itself to indicate that the market is correct and that Defenders time - in its current form - is done.

Skuilnaam :angel:

[Tombie]

Here Here! Not a truer word has been said ( except they sold 13 as I bought one recently too :cool:) These pillicks seem to think that it will survive on it's past, which it wont. It still amazes me that in all the advertising its push to the rear of any pictures and does not even rate a mention when up to the 70's when the Rangie was introduced, it was their bread and butter. I think the main problem is none of these gooseberries in Land Rover have probably never driven one as it's beneath them to be seen in anything other than a Rangie or Disco and as for the new concept DC100, it's a bloody hairdressers car!

It was their bread and butter... But so was Coal mining for the UK....
So were 34cm CRT TVs for Sanyo, PYE etc...

(Poor model to use for reference)

And a Disco 4 will - and has - out driven a Defender in real world situations... And with much higher levels of occupant comfort and safety...

The only limiting factor - People dont want to bend up a $75k+ vehicle as often...

I love Defenders - had them.. I have a soft spot for them...

But like GTs and Monaros of old - Sweet memories...

[Davo]

Considering the overall use of vehicles nowadays...

The reality of their uses... Not those who dream....

Considering the company is a business, out to make a profit - by making vehicles - not making vehicles and hoping for a profit.

And considering that almost any current 4wd on the market can, and do go exactly where the Defender pilots go as well.... Leads itself to indicate that the market is correct and that Defenders time - in its current form - is done.

Skuilnaam :angel:

The point is that they haven't tried with the Defender, not for decades, and unsupported its potential has never been realised.

As for the real world, there's just no comparison between a Defender and something expensive and complicated. The Defender is made for bolting things on, carrying large loads, simple repairs, and is still, as they used to say long ago when they actually advertised Land-Rovers, "the world's most versatile vehicle".

As for the real world, just look at all the traybacks and specialist vehicles and tradies trucks and the military, and if you're really keen, just come up here and see how many Troopies and LandCruiser traybacks there are - instead of Landies.

The people running Land Rover are idiots, complete idiots, and the Defender hasn't been properly supported for the entire time I've been toying with Landies, which is almost 25 years. And the Series Landies were never supported before that. They've always had a unique product they didn't know what to do with, and it took Toyota, with it's equally noisy and rough four-wheel-drives, to aggressively take on the market and win. Full marks to them for that.

[ezyrama]

The point is that they haven't tried with the Defender, not for decades, and unsupported its potential has never been realised.

As for the real world, there's just no comparison between a Defender and something expensive and complicated. The Defender is made for bolting things on, carrying large loads, simple repairs, and is still, as they used to say long ago when they actually advertised Land-Rovers, "the world's most versatile vehicle".

As for the real world, just look at all the traybacks and specialist vehicles and tradies trucks and the military, and if you're really keen, just come up here and see how many Troopies and LandCruiser traybacks there are - instead of Landies.

The people running Land Rover are idiots, complete idiots, and the Defender hasn't been properly supported for the entire time I've been toying with Landies, which is almost 25 years. And the Series Landies were never supported before that. They've always had a unique product they didn't know what to do with, and it took Toyota, with it's equally noisy and rough four-wheel-drives, to aggresively take on the market and win. Full marks to them for that.

I agree completely with you Davo, full credit to Toyota and Nissan for making something to cope with harsh conditions, good drive trains and suspension, with decent sized engines and an agressive marketing campain to get their product into the market place with dealer back up as well. Admittedly, lately Toyota have been a bit lax in backing their product when used "enthuiastically", as are all manufacturers, but by and large they have a very tough product. It's just a shame that Land Rover, instead of listening to some moron in Brussels dictating emission levels, listen to their customers for a change and give them what they want and deserve and if the product and back up service is as good as the vehicle they produce, then sales numbers of the product would reflect that. Look, the Hilux/Landcruisers are very good vehicles, there is no denying that, the sales figure are good even though the price of the vehicle is excessive for what you get in a standard vehicle compared to other very competent competetors in their respective classes and Land Rover could have exactly the same success if they just pulled their collective fingers out, bit the bullet and listened to customer feedback.

[Tombie]

And what makes you think they didn't listen?

They did… and the Range Rover was born...

They did... And the Freelander was born...

They did… and the Evoque was born...

Now they're listening to a huge potential market... And the concepts are coming.

The biggest expanding markets... Not the "die hard" who think that a Defender is the be all and end all of a All Terrain Vehicle..

Defenders are great vehicles - again I love them... Had them... Go misty eyed at them.

But not what you lot are romanticizing at all.

Enjoy your vehicles - they are great... But will never sell in volume...

I can get a decent dual cab, all mod cons, and dust and door seals. That will do the Cape, gun barrel etc no problems..

Take the blinkers off... I bleed Green but I'm not blind or stupid... I'm realistic... And getting old.

Skuilnaam

[LRO53]

I have been told by contacts in LR at around 88 avg Defenders come off the line a day. 100 on a good day and 75 on a bad day.

Around 12 of those are CKDs. It's not what you would call amazing....

Considering in the building across the road over 900 RR:Sports Disco4s are coming off the line. And they are about to ramp up to a third shift so perhaps over 1000 per day....

Defender has to go but to replace with what is the question? They need a platform that can handle a cab chassis. Solid Axles on aleast the rear. No other LR Product / Platform meets this.

[newhue]

There is no doubt it has a healthy following but price and a poor stigma also seem to follow it as well.

There has to be bias in there somewhere. I read a shoot out where the Defender came a distant last, or 6th. Compared with Pajero, FJ cruiser, 2x Jeeps, and a Patrol, all mostly family orientated vehicles. I felt it should have been compared to the 79 series toyota and maybe just the patrol. These are the only range of vehicles that have a similar variants in the one body. All slow and few mod cons.
The reporters do Defender no favours, but HQ seem to do little to fight back as well.

What I do find interesting though, after a certain magazine has taken the bollocks on Defender for years, has now started include one in every magazine and found one to go along with their videos. I wonder if their mighty Land Cruisers and Patrol are fading as well. The Jap twin cab gets a very small look in even though the sales are gong gang busters.

[manic]

And what makes you think they didn't listen?

They did… and the Range Rover was born...

They did... And the Freelander was born...

They did… and the Evoque was born...

Now they're listening to a huge potential market... And the concepts are coming.

The biggest expanding markets... Not the "die hard" who think that a Defender is the be all and end all of a All Terrain Vehicle..

Defenders are great vehicles - again I love them... Had them... Go misty eyed at them.

But not what you lot are romanticizing at all.

Enjoy your vehicles - they are great... But will never sell in volume...

I can get a decent dual cab, all mod cons, and dust and door seals. That will do the Cape, gun barrel etc no problems..

Take the blinkers off... I bleed Green but I'm not blind or stupid... I'm realistic... And getting old.

Skuilnaam

We are talking about a replacement defender here, not continuing the current one...

If the RR, Disco, Freelander, Evoque are selling so well and please so many of you then Land Rover can afford to keep the defender alive in a model that is true to form. It would be a fail if they turned it into another city spec SUV and killed the foundation of the Land Rover brand.

The look of the new defender can change and a new vehicle built from the ground up is the way to go but it should compliment the best parts of the original land rover...

I would love to see:
- the modular ethos contiuned where you can simply bolt on/off pretty much any component with basic tools.
- the use of composite materials for lightweight bodywork that will not rust.
- bodywork panels likely to get bashed should be cheap and easily replaced.
- strong chassis with solid axles.. galvanised steel built to last.
- just as high payload and tow figures
- various bolt on body types and chassis lengths, van, cab, tray back etc
- an interior choice that can be luxurious or hose down utilitarian.
- next level high tech traction/off road aids including mech locking diffs.
- an engine and gearbox that works great on the highway but even better for offroad.
- quality dust filtered air conditioning and dust proof cabin
- smart sound proofing
- no leaks
- as good or better approach/departure angles

In short keep all that is good, and fix all that is bad. Theres no reason why the new defender could not satify the die hard and the sell outs.

If they get it right then it could carry the integrity of the brand for another 50 years.

dreaming..

[Davo]

And what makes you think they didn't listen?

They did… and the Range Rover was born...

They did... And the Freelander was born...

They did… and the Evoque was born...

Now they're listening to a huge potential market... And the concepts are coming.

The biggest expanding markets... Not the "die hard" who think that a Defender is the be all and end all of a All Terrain Vehicle..

Defenders are great vehicles - again I love them... Had them... Go misty eyed at them.

But not what you lot are romanticizing at all.

Enjoy your vehicles - they are great... But will never sell in volume...

I can get a decent dual cab, all mod cons, and dust and door seals. That will do the Cape, gun barrel etc no problems..

Take the blinkers off... I bleed Green but I'm not blind or stupid... I'm realistic... And getting old.

Skuilnaam

Sport, I think you're getting this site confused with your day job of writing dialogue for "Home and Away".

Nobody is getting romantically misty-eyed about the leaky, noisy, overpriced rarity called the Defender. We would actually like to see it improved and promoted and supported. The rest of the market is well covered by the other models the factory has managed to scrape together over the years.

How well the Defender would sell will never be known. There just hasn't been the distribution and support. They would no doubt sell in volume, just as the noisy, heavy, expensive, horribly rough-riding Troopie does, if only the Defender was, you know, actually available.

[Tombie]

Sport, I think you're getting this site confused with your day job of writing dialogue for "Home and Away".

Nobody is getting romantically misty-eyed about the leaky, noisy, overpriced rarity called the Defender. We would actually like to see it improved and promoted and supported. The rest of the market is well covered by the other models the factory has managed to scrape together over the years.

How well the Defender would sell will never be known. There just hasn't been the distribution and support. They would no doubt sell in volume, just as the noisy, heavy, expensive, horribly rough-riding Troopie does, if only the Defender was, you know, actually available.

OK, play the man not the ball if you must.. :eek:

You have no facts to back up such wild claims...

And your Rose coloured Glasses are skewing your thinking...

LR used to market the Defender, hard... But only certain breeds of people like niche market vehicles.

Like all vehicle enthusiasts - generic doesn't fit - and a defender is an enthusiast vehicle.

Generics want ergonomics, seals, no leaks...

Enthusiasts want the traits that make a vehicle more than just a tool. They want the passion of the experience.

LR marketed that and couldn't grab the market share you refer to.

Even Toyotas Pov spec cruisers dont sell in volume compared to GXL spec..
Why? Because people want the comfort afforded as well.


As for expanding the vehicles appeal.

- Regulators on emissions etc say it must comply, no comply - no sell.
- Larger market forces (compared to our joke of a market) command what is done and what is not.. America & Europe rule this bit.
- To make a Defender costs far more than any other LR product. Its manually intensive, and expensive. To make it reliably built (fit and finish) would be its immediate demise financially.



**I've put several hundred kilometers on my vehicle(s) off road this month..
I'd suggest stepping back from playing CyberWheeler and go enjoy your vehicle.... :whistling:



Skuilnaam

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Just some advice on developing the new Defender.

If you can't do this with the new one you have failed.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/04/160.jpgIf you've got that much water in the back and didn't exceed the wading depth, then you have an OEM sunroof fitted!

[Davo]

Yeah, yeah, I think that by calling the rest of us "dreamy misty-eyed romantics" - or whatever it was - you started the man-playing a bit before my post.

The fact is, the market that you are so sure doesn't exist does, and it is owned by Toyota. Look up where I live, and that is the market that Land Rover doesn't bother with. There are literally thousands of Troopies and traybacks up here. They are simply everywhere. There's a fact for you! I went to a funeral here once, and there was a million dollars worth of LandCruisers there - all sales that Land Rover missed. They could have been Land Rovers, but the company just never bothered. Imagine if you couldn't open a newpaper or switch on the telly without seeing a Defender ad? Can you imagine that? It's laughable, and that's because we're so used to not seeing Defender ads.

It's got nothing to do with blinkers, rose-coloured glasses, dreamers, or romantic thinking, or with the passion of the enthusiast. In fact, I'm not incredibly fond of Landies, they're just the closest to what I want.

The company just don't make enough of them or sell them. Toyota did and does. If fact, when you think about it, a small company like Land Rover could have done quite well with something like the market share that Toyota has, compared to how massive Toyota is.

And "cyberwheeler"??? Come on, no name calling. Anyway, we only have about twelve paved roads up here. I test the suspension just doing a tip run. Geez.

[ezyrama]

All I am saying is there is no reason why Land Rover cant do a toyota and market like they do and take a giant slice of their market share if they build a vehicle that's competent, capable and reliable. The dont have to turn an iconic legend into a hairdressers car like the new fj cruiser, I have a mate who has one, capable, but not my cup of tea. It doesnt have to have all the mod cons, but then again, up where Davo is, most of them dont have them either. I think to automate the majority of the production line as is the Disco, Rangie and Freelander which up till recently shared a production line with the X Type Jag, would increase production to a point where they could keep up with any increased demand and customers would not get the ****s with waiting 3 and in one case on this forum 6 months for a vehicle. For a start, be proud of what you produce. A good vehicle, dealer back up, in your face saturation advertising and then build on a market share with the ones that want/need a few extra creature comforts with the Disco and also the double decaf soy mocha latte' set Range Rover/Sport clientele :wasntme: BTW, My eyes arent covered with rose coloured glasses either:cool:, their Mid Bronze Green if must know!;)

Cheers Ian

[Davo]

All I am saying is there is no reason why Land Rover cant do a toyota and market like they do and take a giant slice of their market share if they build a vehicle that's competent, capable and reliable. The dont have to turn an iconic legend into a hairdressers car like the new fj cruiser, I have a mate who has one, capable, but not my cup of tea. It doesnt have to have all the mod cons, but then again, up where Davo is, most of them dont have them either. I think to automate the majority of the production line as is the Disco, Rangie and Freelander which up till recently shared a production line with the X Type Jag, would increase production to a point where they could keep up with any increased demand and customers would not get the ****s with waiting 3 and in one case on this forum 6 months for a vehicle. For a start, be proud of what you produce. A good vehicle, dealer back up, in your face saturation advertising and then build on a market share with the ones that want/need a few extra creature comforts with the Disco and also the double decaf soy mocha latte' set Range Rover/Sport clientele :wasntme: BTW, My eyes arent covered with rose coloured glasses either:cool:, their Mid Bronze Green if must know!;)

Cheers Ian

Yup, that's it right there.

[Tombie]

Bwahahahahaha....

If you say so guys... So is either of you in...

Automotive Marketing?
Market Research?
Automotive design?
Fleet management?

A million dollars worth of Land Cruisers... So about 10-12 vehicles then!

And Toyota owners are no different to Ford / Holden drivers...
Most of it is my Dad had a xyz mentality.
It's Certainly nothing to do with cost vs performance or LR would win hands down.

Several mine buyers are now going to the new Ford Ranger as its proving better and more reliable and they are getting better fleet deals.

To suggest a business keep making old designs propped up by profits from the new....well....
If I was a shareholder I'd be selling!!!!!!

And hairdressers cars... Composite non rusting panels and parts...
Doesn't plastic reduce weight, not rust or oxidise or react with other metals?

And I too, get a "Misty eyed sense of nostalgia" when I see a good Defender.

You lot - actually sound exactly like those on the other brands forums!!!!!

I say bring back crank handles.....

Peace
Skuilnaam

[clubagreenie]

The days of Land Rover trading on it's name are not to, but far enough and forgotten enough that simple increases in marketing are no longer enough. It used to be the case that the others would have to attract the buyers away from out marque. These days Rover aren't even attempting to market their product let alone attract people away from/back to their product.

I'll always be a Rover guy, but then again I've also knocked back $100k + from someone for another car I have that I purchased for $300-. So I'm part looney, part looser, 100% brand loyal to a fault because I just can't bring myself to sit in a cruiser again. The only time I did get in one I got bitten literally, on the ass by a bee, 2 days across the Simpson. If thats not a sign, I don't know what is.

[jasonedu]

to increase volumes and sell to the masses you need to dumb things down and that is incompatible with the reasons why we have all ended up in a defender.

it reminds me of asking a work canteen once why their food was so dull. there response was whenever they added any flavour someone would complain so they stopped adding anything. Say hello to the D-Max, Hilux, BT-50, Triton, and Amorak. Bland, dull, they all look the same but geeze they sell.

I here the volume argument all the time from Toyota and Nissan drivers, they must be better because they sell more. My response is you stick to your Justin Beiber version of a 4wd but thats not for me.

And lets face - all of us enjoy the fact that the truck we drive is different. I dont want to see millions of them on the road. Where would that leave the wave?

[Davo]

Bwahahahahaha....

If you say so guys... So is either of you in...

Automotive Marketing?
Market Research?
Automotive design?
Fleet management?

A million dollars worth of Land Cruisers... So about 10-12 vehicles then!

And Toyota owners are no different to Ford / Holden drivers...
Most of it is my Dad had a xyz mentality.
It's Certainly nothing to do with cost vs performance or LR would win hands down.

Several mine buyers are now going to the new Ford Ranger as its proving better and more reliable and they are getting better fleet deals.

To suggest a business keep making old designs propped up by profits from the new....well....
If I was a shareholder I'd be selling!!!!!!

And hairdressers cars... Composite non rusting panels and parts...
Doesn't plastic reduce weight, not rust or oxidise or react with other metals?

And I too, get a "Misty eyed sense of nostalgia" when I see a good Defender.

You lot - actually sound exactly like those on the other brands forums!!!!!

I say bring back crank handles.....

Peace
Skuilnaam

Right, I see we're still missing the point. Let me break it down for you:

1) No-one says the Defender should stay the same.
2) Instead it should be improved - or - replaced by another utility vehicle instead of a hairdresser's car.
3) So that it can compete in the utility market that really does exist, as proven by the competition making money from it.
4) The aforementioned million-dollar example was an attempt to show that there's plenty of money out there, which Land Rover doesn't get because other companies do.
5)
And I too, get a "Misty eyed sense of nostalgia" when I see a good Defender.

That's nice - I don't. I've been waiting for years for them to improve it!

[clubagreenie]

So the basics of what a revised defender should be is:

1. Bolt together, modular assembly on a ladder chassis with alloy body.
2. Live axle, built in/optional factory portals, factory mech diff locks.
3. Turbo Diesel, inter-cooled. Std Large volume fuel capacity.
4. Hose out, basic interior but with options for more appointed upgrades.
5. Marketed, appropriately, to both consumer and fleet users. Pointing out it's suitability for each users uses.


And finally, available in colors other than white that suit and a factory dealer network that gives a ****, doesn't quibble on warranty claims for the sake of it and doesn't see spare parts as a money making exercise but as a support to the product, keeping it going just as we do for the previous generations.

[Davo]

And finally, available in colors other than white that suit and a factory dealer network that gives a ****, doesn't quibble on warranty claims for the sake of it and doesn't see spare parts as a money making exercise but as a support to the product, keeping it going just as we do for the previous generations.

Yup, and especially that! Unimaginable, isn't it?

[pannawonica]

Pommie property developer bought some land, an underling informed him that in buying the site of an old factory he had purchased the rights to Triumph Motorcycles Merriden. He then spent 5 million quid of his own money just doing a feasibility study in how to re enter the the bike market. He thought big and then put in @100 mil of his own dough.Who has grow bike sales in a recession, largest large bike sales in Europe ? Previous owners of JLR have not had the vision, some ripped off what they thought where the good product/ideas. Tata so far seem to be an improvement, they are investing, however the gaylander is just a prototype. Maybe they are listening. Volume worldwide sales are attainable but their vehicles have to conform to the same parametres as others.:):beer: