New Submarines due in 2025.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Smith says submarine decisions soon (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/smith-says-submarine-decisions-soon-20120427-1xpiz.html)

obviously not news for some of you out there--

So, if we are not running nukes, what designs/brands/companies are we left with?


one idea-
http://www.navyleague.org/seapower/aip_alternative.htm

[PAT303]

It won't matter what we buy,like everything else we've bought it'll turn into a **** shop and cost the Australian taxpayer a pile of money and we'll end with with an overpriced outdated inaffective system like every other piece of equipement the ADF has. Pat

[juddy]

Just look at the Canadian Submarine refurb program, what a joke that is...

[timbo]

Smith says submarine decisions soon (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/smith-says-submarine-decisions-soon-20120427-1xpiz.html)

obviously not news for some of you out there--

So, if we are not running nukes, what designs/brands/companies are we left with?


one idea-
The AIP Alternative (http://www.navyleague.org/seapower/aip_alternative.htm)


Have a read of Letters of last resort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Every time I read it I get the chills.

[clubagreenie]

AIR-INDEPENDENT PROPULSION – AIP Technology Creates a New Undersea Threat (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_13/propulsion.htm)

Expands on the concepts

[ugu80]

NSSN Virginia Class Attack Submarine, USA - Naval Technology (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nssn/)



Non nuclear powered is politics over reality.

[korg20000bc]

It won't matter what we buy,like everything else we've bought it'll turn into a **** shop and cost the Australian taxpayer a pile of money and we'll end with with an overpriced outdated inaffective system like every other piece of equipement the ADF has. Pat
I've read that the Collins class has embarrassed US in exercises. And, in some cases, has been undetectable by them.

I was told by a submariner that the main problems with the Collins submarines is that they cannot get enough sailors to crew the whole fleet effectively.

[Tank]

It won't matter what we buy,like everything else we've bought it'll turn into a **** shop and cost the Australian taxpayer a pile of money and we'll end with with an overpriced outdated inaffective system like every other piece of equipement the ADF has. Pat
Well Pat, the previous "O" class subs were the best Diesel/Battery Subs in the world, after they had been rebuilt/refitted in Australia. Totally undetectable under 4knots, and 2 "O" class subs sunk the US fleet (Carrier and escort Destroyers) in one of the Kangaroo exercises off the Australian coast, the yanks didn't even know they had been targeted and sunk till after the operation, which they claimed they had won with their Carrier Aircraft. Hell to pay for that blunder, Regards Frank.

[TwoUp]

"the main problems with the Collins submarines is that they cannot get enough sailors to crew the whole fleet effectively"

I think the recruiters are setting their standard way too high. If you want sailers to operate on the Collins, the you need to have them of an entry level for the sub! To that standard!

So it's quite obvious that the recruiters neet to look for persons "Sub-Standard" :o

Salutations,
Peterw

[DeanoH]

Well Pat, the previous "O" class subs were the best Diesel/Battery Subs in the world, ......................................

For someone who knows little about submarines I presume this refers to the very obsolete 'Oberon' class submarines of the 1960's. Whilst reputed to be an excellent submarines 50 years ago 'time and tide wait for no man' and I would assume they have been bettered.
It has always intrigued me, the condemnation of the Collins class submarine, (the Oberon replacement) as really a 'rubbish' boat, or is its bad publicity really good dis-information to lull Australias 'enemies' into a sense of false security ? I'll probably never know.
It strikes me as strange that the US with only nucs has allowed itself to be put in a situation where with no diesel/electric boats, it has no capability to 'exercise' with its most likely type of submarine adversary. Unless of course it relys on allies such as Australia to fill this role. I would have thought for shallow inshore work a diesel/electric boat would be better than a nuc but as I have said subs really aren't my thing.
As to Australias Collins class replacement, I guess the most relevant criteria would be quietness. To this end have 'Stirling' type external combustion engines ever been seriously considered in this role or is this just a pipe dream ?

Deano:)

[PAT303]

Well Pat, the previous "O" class subs were the best Diesel/Battery Subs in the world, after they had been rebuilt/refitted in Australia. Totally undetectable under 4knots, and 2 "O" class subs sunk the US fleet (Carrier and escort Destroyers) in one of the Kangaroo exercises off the Australian coast, the yanks didn't even know they had been targeted and sunk till after the operation, which they claimed they had won with their Carrier Aircraft. Hell to pay for that blunder, Regards Frank.

I'm not in any way bad mouthing equipement from oversea's,it's the way the ADF goes about buying and then ''Australianizing'' it.The Seasprite helicopter,Super Hornet,JSF,F111,Wedgetail Awacs and of all things the POS boots the diggers have to use are but a few examples. Pat

[3toes]

Colins subs are a very different beast to the ones they replaced. Has a very significant electronic intellengence gathering capability that the older ones never had. Intention is they can park off the coast and hover up all that is going on. Being diesel electric are better for the shallow waters around the coast and our neighbours to the north.

Like the subs they replaced have also done over the US fleet on a regular basis without being discovered. They were noisy when first in service this was however a fault of the design and was corrected. US technology used with much protesting from the country of origin.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

US technology used with much protesting from the country of origin.

Which brings up the next question,,

what happens to the old ones??
buried like the F111's?

[bob10]

It strikes me as strange that the US with only nucs has allowed itself to be put in a situation where with no diesel/electric boats, it has no capability to 'exercise' with its most likely type of submarine adversary. Unless of course it relys on allies such as Australia to fill this role

Deano:)

Exactly what they do, Deano. extract from " Australian Warship":

"The Chilean submarine Carrera is currently participating in the Diesel Electric Submarine Initiative [DESI] :) training program alongside US Navy ships.Desi is a 3 month partnership that allows the US & partner Navies to work together to train & test underwater warfare capabilities through engagement tactics, weapon system tests, and close encounter operations. Other participating DESI partners include Colombia, Brazil, & Peru. This is the fourth time a Chilian submarine has participated in DESI [ gotta love those acronyms] " Bob

[THE BOOGER]

Yep the aussie subs are sort after for training by the US, did any know they are they largest non-nuk subs in the world at the moment. The sonar absorbing tiles used to quieten them is all australian as both the yanks and brits would not share the tech :(

[THE BOOGER]

Good to see some money coming throught:)

Gillard announces submarine design cash (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8461227)

[Bigbjorn]

Russia had Kilo class for sale to all comers.

[bob10]

Russia had Kilo class for sale to all comers.

You could almost lay in your bunk and hear them coming, Bob :)

[Bigbjorn]

You could almost lay in your bunk and hear them coming, Bob :)

You sure of that? Everything ever published about them or found on the internet says they are about the quietest of all, capable of detecting other subs at 3-4 times the distance at which they can be detected. From what I can find the Yanks were just about wetting themselves at their inability to detect the Kilo class.

Our Indonesian friends are buying a few.

[PAT303]

Their buying Su27's as well,they can outfly everything including the JSF were are getting not the mention the donkey cart Super Hornets. Pat

[bob10]

You sure of that? Everything ever published about them or found on the internet says they are about the quietest of all, capable of detecting other subs at 3-4 times the distance at which they can be detected. From what I can find the Yanks were just about wetting themselves at their inability to detect the Kilo class.

Our Indonesian friends are buying a few.
They must have upgraded the design, if that is the case. [ thats the norm with all evolving weapons systems, so I will stand corrected ] The USN find it difficult to find any conventional boats, that's why they are exercising with Sth. American submarines, in order to reskill. Bob

[DeanoH]

Interesting that Minister Smith noted that the Ohio class subs were having their working life extended by 10 years to 40 years.

Deano:)

[THE BOOGER]

If you put the kilo class beside the collins the collins wins in most areas including detection range. The collins are larger but faster under water better range and have the same sonar as the virgina class of nukes most of the collins specs are still classified as they are the same as the current US subs:). they have a smaller crew deeper diving etc so we should be able to start infront this time and get an even better boat dont always believe the media about how bad they are:o

[juddy]

Interesting that Minister Smith noted that the Ohio class subs were having their working life extended by 10 years to 40 years.

Deano:)

US Defence cuts... mean the old stuff need to plod on....