TD5 or PUMA? The perpetual question!

[redneb72]

Alright you Defender aficionado's out there, time to man up and answer the question.

Defender TD5 or PUMA?

My history of Defenders started with a 130 TDi utility vehicle. It was awesome. I've attached a photo of it to this thread! If anybody knows who has it, or where it is, let me know cause if it comes up for sale I'd buy it back!

And then kids came along! God bless their little cotton socks! So i moved towards an Extreme TD5. It too had been modified, and included diff lockers front and rear amongst other things.

As age and family life settled in I went to a Discovery in TD5 and relocated to the Territory. I had it up there for a while and decided to sell it prior to moving to Groote Eylandt as I couldn't bear to see it sitting idly by exposed in the harsh sun. That and the fact that LR mechanics on Groote are as rare. No, actually they are non-existent.

So now I am back in Sunny Qld, living in Mackay where there is a great LR mechanic and am desiring to get back into a Deefer. Months of internet scouring has made realise this.

1 - That people are holding onto their TD5's and if they are selling them it is for good dollars, or they are letting them go for less dollars but excessive mileage.

2 - That people are out there in Defender world with PUMA's who either rate them, or are regretting them due to build quality and the faults that a listed on this website.

I have recently come to an arrangement whereupon I can get a 110 Puma (dual cab ute configuration) which has less kilometres and manufacturers warranty for $37000. Plenty of accessories.

Do I go this path where it is a nice, very drivable vehicle, or do I go for a TD5 for less coin and use the remaining money to purchase parts and the like. There are that many parts etc. available on eBay nowadays that you could build a Defender from scratch (well almost).

So I ask. Which is the better path. I have two days to decide!

I'll leave it in your capable hands and await your opinions.

[Disco Muppet]

Hi Redneb
Not a defender owner myself, however i have some good friends who run a defender with the PUMA engine, and they love it, say it runs great. I'd say go for the puma, unless you want to buy a TD5 for the purpose of doing it up yourself, which is what i did with my disco
Best of luck!
Muppet

[Slunnie]

I would have thought for the rough the TD5 would be stronger and better designed/built, or for Daily driving the Puma might be more comfy with the new dash and AC.

[Tombie]

You can't go TD5 or Puma...

Options are:

TD5 or TDCi

which were known as Project:
Storm or Puma

:wasntme:

[Chops]

Well,, after test driving a couple of TD5's, I'm glad I bought a "Puma". I have the crew cab, which will suit us nicely. Smoother, quieter and seems to ride better, although I would expect that from a new car with no mods.
Also, we have full factory warranty,, always a good thing for piece of mind.

Chops

[Blknight.aus]

if you want to be able to fix it properly yourself you'd get the TD5.

[miker]

HI Redneb. I've had fenders in TDI, TD5 & the current TD4 configurations. My PUMA has only 40k/two years on it and is a absolute pleasure drive compared with the previous two. Love the engine. Current vehicle has not been pushed yet as per its predesessors which covered most of Oz over the years. I've certainly had a few issues with build quality and some are still WIP through warranty. However at this point none would have caused concerns in the bush but do give you the sh*ts...so close yet so far!

Good hunting.

Miker

[SVX37]

Depends on what YOU want.

Forget the servicing yourself comments. If you service yourself then you don't need opinions on here.
:wasntme:

If you drove either vehicle back to back, the Puma wins in every area!

Plenty of threads on this topic so do a search.

After you confuse yourself with everyone's opiion's, drive both and I know which one you will buy!

[Tombie]

You can now fit the 6 speed into TD5s...

That will quiet it down, give more scope to play... (And be cheaper than a TDCi)

Add some great sound deadening and a Red Dot A/C unit and it would slay an off the shelf TDCi...

And still have vents :cool:

And be easily lifted if you so desire :wasntme:

[PAT303]

if you want to be able to fix it properly yourself you'd get the TD5.

Your a broken record Dave,please change the channel. Pat

[PAT303]

Depends on what YOU want.

Forget the servicing yourself comments. If you service yourself then you don't need opinions on here.
:wasntme:

If you drove either vehicle back to back, the Puma wins in every area!

Plenty of threads on this topic so do a search.

After you confuse yourself with everyone's opiion's, drive both and I know which one you will buy!

Best reply yet,drive all three and you'll take the TDCi home. Pat

[Sam65]

TD5 and Puma have same running gear and chassis. Puma engine and gearbox are a big improvement, likewise the interior "refinements". I have used a TD5 extensively and currently have a Puma. Go for the Puma every time.

[uninformed]

they both have the P38 type rear diff....so your buggered either way :p

[oldyella 76]

Just sold my td 5 defer and got a 2012 puma. I would go the puma, much better vehicle. A few more electrics but still the td5 could give you hearache if it wanted to. I have had them all from a series 2 to a 3 and all the defers
they are getting better.
Lindsay.

[uninformed]

I have no horse in this race....but I can say for many improvements they take a step backwards as well :mad:

[TimNZ]

I have no horse in this race....but I can say for many improvements they take a step backwards as well :mad:

How?

[TwoUp]

"I have no horse in this race....but I can say for many improvements they take a step backwards as well"

When will this stop??

Can a petrol series match the newer vehicle and at 12 mile the gallon? guess not.

The jap motor will not match as well!

I have had a 300tdi and know it will not!

Driven chipped td5 across the desert, performed well, but does not match the new jobbie.

So, the chasis is good, yes. Build is better, yes. Goes better, yes.

So when the sky falls, it falls on all!!

Wake up people, stop bagging, or else we should all live through depression from the constant badgers.

Missery enjoys company....... Take it somewhere else

Had a gut full of this crap,

Best regards,

PeterW

[djam1]

The perpetual question evolves with time
Originally it was leaf springs vs coil
Then 200TDi vs 300TDi then 300TDi vs TD5
Now its TD5 vs Puma
Tomorrow it will be Puma 2.4 vs 2.2

I personally hang back years so you know every fault and don't have to find the problems yourself.
They are all fine you just need to deal with what they throw at you just work around the weaknesses that are exposed

I currently have a TD5 and think its great I wouldn't go near a Puma but that's just my cautious nature. With what I have spent on my TD5 I could of bought a Puma.

I think the later TD5s were much better than the earlier ones as the problems were sorted, the issue is we are dealing with Land Rover and they do some stupid things sometimes like getting rid of the bullet proof Salisbury and put in something weaker than a Rover diff so this needs to be taken into account with the progression theory
I guess this will be the same with the Puma after all they have been around for a while as they progress they should get better just don't forget the Rover factor

[uninformed]

if you think the engine is the entire vehcile then you have your heads stuck in the sand.....diffs, suspension components, steel coatings, paint, wheel bearings, cvs etc

but hey, im just uninformed :angel:

[TimNZ]

if you think the engine is the entire vehcile then you have your heads stuck in the sand.....diffs, suspension components, steel coatings, paint, wheel bearings, cvs etc

but hey, im just uninformed :angel:

Are all the same on the TDCi as the 2002 onwards TD5.........

[uninformed]

Are all the same on the TDCi as the 2002 onwards TD5.........

well clearly build quality isnt, as seen by the larger number of rear diff failures in the latest defenders running the same diffs as the td5s. I know there has been subtle changes though the life of the td5. Others brought up the argument of the new defender being better than a series or a tdi....I agree there are improvements, but have seen the unimporvements pointed out to me on LR's over the years....those being not improved on since being unimproved

[TimNZ]

For sure there has been a problem with the rear diff's, but where did you get all the other stuff from?? (You forgot the vac pump btw :) ) But to condemn an entire vehicle because of that is a bit unreasonable, if that was the case nobody should buy a TD5 because of the oil pump bolt/fuel pump/plastic dowels/oil in the injector loom problems.

I imagine we will all get to argue about this further in a couple of weeks when this topic comes up again. In the mean time I'll be enjoying my Defender, (which must have a problem as it's still on it's original diff after 60k km's). I have nothing against the TD5 and if funds allowed I would have one as a second vehicle, (my current 110 is a work vehicle and must be under 5 years old).

Cheers,

[goingbush]

The problem with the TdCi or Puma or whatever you want to call it is not the Engine or Gearbox, but I reckon its the way it has been mounted.

The new Defenders seem to have Propshaft / UJ / front diff - TC bearing / Vibration issues because Im guessing the taller engine is mounted higher at the front to make clearance for the sump, (which is also why there is a lump in the bonnet)

Because the engine is higher at the front and Transfer case is at its regular position the front drive flange points up slightly , herein lies the problem with the TdCi the front uni / props / bearings flog out especially if you raise the suspension. This is why many are retrofitted with Hookes / DC prop shafts.

I am extremely happy with my TD5 but if the worst was to happen and it HAD to be replaced I would buy a New Defender but I would fit a DC front propshaft & definitely not raise the suspension

[Drover]

The problem with the TdCi or Puma or whatever you want to call it is not the Engine or Gearbox, but I reckon its the way it has been mounted.

The new Defenders seem to have Propshaft / UJ / front diff - TC bearing / Vibration issues because Im guessing the taller engine is mounted higher at the front to make clearance for the sump, (which is also why there is a lump in the bonnet)

Because the engine is higher at the front and Transfer case is at its regular position the front drive flange points up slightly , herein lies the problem with the TdCi the front uni / props / bearings flog out especially if you raise the suspension. This is why many are retrofitted with Hookes / DC prop shafts.



Big deal...whoo hoo

It is $650 dollar fix, and 7 dayes delivery for Baily-Morris for an extreme D/C front prop shaft and your whole rave is done.....

so how much for to fix - the oil pump bolt/fuel pump/plastic dowels/oil in the injector loom.

Keep in fair or dont bother

[uninformed]

For sure there has been a problem with the rear diff's, but where did you get all the other stuff from?? (You forgot the vac pump btw :) ) But to condemn an entire vehicle because of that is a bit unreasonable, if that was the case nobody should buy a TD5 because of the oil pump bolt/fuel pump/plastic dowels/oil in the injector loom problems.

I imagine we will all get to argue about this further in a couple of weeks when this topic comes up again. In the mean time I'll be enjoying my Defender, (which must have a problem as it's still on it's original diff after 60k km's). I have nothing against the TD5 and if funds allowed I would have one as a second vehicle, (my current 110 is a work vehicle and must be under 5 years old).

Cheers,

where did I say, or do you get that I am condeming an entire vehicle....your defensivness seems alittle odd :confused:

[uninformed]

Big deal...whoo hoo

It is $650 dollar fix, and 7 dayes delivery for Baily-Morris for an extreme D/C front prop shaft and your whole rave is done.....

so how much for to fix - the oil pump bolt/fuel pump/plastic dowels/oil in the injector loom.

Keep in fair or dont bother

another example of a backward step....the gearbox is better for sure. The engine is great so far....lets see some Km on them. Now the higher bigger engine and gear box mass has rasied the COG....and since the 300tdi has been moved forward which isnt great either

[TimNZ]

where did I say, or do you get that I am condeming an entire vehicle....your defensivness seems alittle odd :confused:


I'm defensive, because like other TDCi owners, I'm sick of being told by members of this forum that I have brought a piece of crap. I get enough of this greif from owners of other makes in the real world.

Cheers,

[uninformed]

I'm defensive, because like other TDCi owners, I'm sick of being told by members of this forum that I have brought a piece of crap. I get enough of this greif from owners of other makes in the real world.

Cheers,

once again, where did I say its a peice of crap.....im sorry i dont sugar coat things and blow wind up peoples butts. It has its good and bad, just like every LR made. Its just a shame they cant keep improving alone.

should you really care what others think....if so you certainly bought the wrong brand

[goingbush]

Big deal...whoo hoo

It is $650 dollar fix, and 7 dayes delivery for Baily-Morris for an extreme D/C front prop shaft and your whole rave is done.....

so how much for to fix - the oil pump bolt/fuel pump/plastic dowels/oil in the injector loom.

Keep in fair or dont bother

Thats a bit precious mate - a case of being your own worst enemy . No wonder PUMA drivers don't wave back to TD5 owners !!
Meybe you should read my post again without so much bias.

Your Bloody Right Mate, Ive done the Oil bolt ($50) & loom ($100) on the TD5 too,

As well as fitting a eaton Truetrac front & rear
Heavy duty axles & drive flanges
Heavy Duty Trailing arms

All of which I'd need to do on a New Defender too.

[TimNZ]

another example of a backward step....the gearbox is better for sure. The engine is great so far....lets see some Km on them. Now the higher bigger engine and gear box mass has rasied the COG....and since the 300tdi has been moved forward which isnt great either

Defender2 - View topic - 230,000 miles today (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic11626.html)

(Also 2.4 / 2.2 is smaller than 2.5)


once again, where did I say its a peice of crap.....


Well, re-reading your posts, you've got me there. (Lucky Dave and Dobbo aren't online tonight as I'm biting good :) ).
Cheers,

[TimNZ]

No wonder PUMA drivers don't wave back to TD5 owners !!


I wave :(

[PAT303]

another example of a backward step....the gearbox is better for sure. The engine is great so far....lets see some Km on them. Now the higher bigger engine and gear box mass has rasied the COG....and since the 300tdi has been moved forward which isnt great either

You've lost me,higher engine moved forward and raised center of gravity,so you don't have a roof rack,bullbar,winch and lift kit on your defender and never load anything in it which raises the COG and moves the wieght forward?????. Pat

[uninformed]

You've lost me,higher engine moved forward and raised center of gravity,so you don't have a roof rack,bullbar,winch and lift kit on your defender and never load anything in it which raises the COG and moves the wieght forward?????. Pat

No I don't have roof racks Pat, and your point is BS given apple's for apple's.....Given you are a smart guy when it comes to most things mechanical, how is it a postitive two have to cars side by side, that look the same, same physical size, yet one has a higher COG and more mass further forward?

oh and the new defender doors are all steel!

[gitney]

You guys are all a bit grumpy tonight. I think you all better go for a drive in your defenders tomorrow and I bet it doesn't matter if their Td5 or TDCi or Tdi or v8 you'll feel a lot better after the drive.

[goingbush]

if you think the engine is the entire vehcile then you have your heads stuck in the sand.....diffs, suspension components, steel coatings, paint, wheel bearings, cvs etc

but hey, im just uninformed :angel:

The Paint, The Paint, thats the problem.
I remember when the rot started to set in

When they started to paint the Galvanised Corner capping, Tub & door bottom capping,

Now if only they still had bare Gal strips & proper door handles like on this gem

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Lets push Solihull for a new retro model with Gal strips, sliding windows, Salisbury rear , Even with TdCi & Mustang gearbox I'd put my money down tomorrow,
bonnet bulge & All .

Bonus is you can have door recesses to hold maps & stuff .

[dullbird]

The Paint, The Paint, thats the problem.
I remember when the rot started to set in

When they started to paint the Galvanised Corner capping, Tub & door bottom capping,

Now if only they still had bare Gal strips & proper door handles like on this gem

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Lets push Solihull for a new retro model with Gal strips, sliding windows, Salisbury rear , Even with TdCi & Mustang gearbox I'd put my money down tomorrow,
bonnet bulge & All .


Bonus is you can have door recesses to hold maps & stuff .

I find GPS doesn't work so well in a door recess :D.....

[Blknight.aus]

Your a broken record Dave,please change the channel. Pat

let me know how you go with a "by the book" complete fuel injection system overhaul.

[Tombie]

You guys are all a bit grumpy tonight. I think you all better go for a drive in your defenders tomorrow and I bet it doesn't matter if their Td5 or TDCi or Tdi or v8 you'll feel a lot better after the drive.

Not if:
Timing belt snaps
Oil pump bolt falls out
Head moves
Liner slips
Diff fails
Vac pump fails

<insert evil laugh here>

But you are ABSOLUTELY right..

Go drive them fellas.. And smile!

[Naks]

Defender TD5 or PUMA?

One of my biggest regrets: getting rid of my 110 double-cab Td5.

The quality of the Puma is just not as good as that of the Td5 :(

[JayBoRover]

You guys are all a bit grumpy tonight. I think you all better go for a drive in your defenders tomorrow and I bet it doesn't matter if their Td5 or TDCi or Tdi or v8 you'll feel a lot better after the drive.
I drove the TDCi D90 down the driveway, past the Nissan, and out for a drive today. Put a smile on my face:). Appreciated being able to listen to the radio without inducing deafness. Also discovered the wipers have an intermittent setting but if you don't like the interval you can also just flick the lever briefly and get a "one shot" of the wiper action. Brilliant!:cool:

But tomorrow I'll take the S2a out, past the Nissan, for a drive. Don't know how I'll get on - with my left hand in a cast I might struggle without power steering. I'll be sure to open the front vents though for a rush of air - and maybe rain if this keeps up:(. I can guarantee I'll have the same smile on my face that I had today in the D90 though:).

The Nissan? It'll stay parked up. Anyone want to buy a boring Nissan GU ute? It'll go for a million kms with no problems, haul anything you want to move, costs bugger all to run really, will never get stuck and go anywhere you want. No smile though:p. No friendly waves from other Nissan drivers either:p. Cop a bit of flak from Toyota drivers, and the odd Landy driver, but pretty tame because there's not really any passion behind the jibes:p.

Go for a drive everyone! ... and smile because you're in a Landy!:)
Cheers
John B

[lowbox]

Puma and TD5's aren't that different really IMHO, Both computerised engines in a old school chassis and body. I went with a Puma, more powerful, quieter, 6 speed - and a warranty.
But they are a different proposition to the older landies - I can't fix the new electrickery on my own, and that seems a bit fragile compared to my old 90 with the 4.6 (on carbies!).

But they are still proper landies and we should all be grateful there's still some about before that godawful DC100 thing replaces them!

[redneb72]

Well contributors! I really don't know what to say, other than the fact that I certainly didn't mean for this thread to become a heated exchange between Defender owners.

Don't get me wrong I am grateful for any and all input. It has made me realise that people are passionate about their respective vehicles and like and want to express why this is better than that.

But I have made a decision and that is to go down the PUMA or TDCi path. Reason being is that is a bit more refined for my wife and kids to be in. I personally loved the TD5 for its ruggedness, the vents and airflow of having everything open, but I realise that the wife didn't like it for that same reason. It is not a car, but a truck. If going down this path means that we will spend more time on the road, enjoying good quality family time, I am prepared to wear what ever is thrown at me.

I have no doubt there will be issues. But then again I had issues with the TD5 and Tdi. That is part and parcel (unfortunately) with owning one of these mighty fine steeds.

All I know is that you are all Defender Aficionado's, you can tell that by the context of the thread. But make no mistake, IMHO, they are the best cars out there. So enjoy them, the rest of the people are envious!

I shall update with some photos once purchased! :D

[justinc]

I know most of you lot have owned all the models in question, and I have worked on / maintained all those models in question, they ALL have their problems, but more importantly they ALL have immense character and smile factor.

JayBoRover has hit the nail squarely on the head above, we wouldn't drive anything else.

So stop your moaning and go out and use them.

:)

JC ( was RRC now 110 County owner !!!:D)

[uninformed]

The Paint, The Paint, thats the problem.
I remember when the rot started to set in

When they started to paint the Galvanised Corner capping, Tub & door bottom capping,

Now if only they still had bare Gal strips & proper door handles like on this gem

http://goingbush.com/landy/county.jpg

Lets push Solihull for a new retro model with Gal strips, sliding windows, Salisbury rear , Even with TdCi & Mustang gearbox I'd put my money down tomorrow,
bonnet bulge & All .

Bonus is you can have door recesses to hold maps & stuff .

Now that is one beautiful LR 110 County. Is it yours?
No that should not be a retro model, but the current base model...but im my mind it goes a little like this:

New diffs front and rear, in fabricated housings with drop out 3rds, ring gear 9inch dia, 3rd bearing pinion support. 4-6inch wider track. larger swivels and cvs. Min 30 spline axle with room for 35. All oil lubed, wider wheel bearing spacing. Bigger brakes. Non abs available.

Body the same but 4-6inches wider. Longer front doors. Pull cab back on chassis 2 inches. SWB to be 100inch, LWB to be 112-114. 130 to be 130. Engine to have pulleys over axle center line (ill take a bigger trans tunnel for this to happen) Disco 2 RA bushes at axle with same spacing, original RRC chassis end, in narrow arms. Longer RA, TA and A frame to refelect the same geometry as the original RRC on 29s, but 32-33 standard on the Defender. Basic stand alone elecs for engine, with full gearbox, axle traction control also an option. either 5 or 6 cyl 3-3.2 ltr deisel. 500nm.

All elec wirering to be of good quality and heavy duty in copper cross section. KISS approach. ALL brimabright skins. Attention to sealing of windows and openings. Gal cappings on all steel...

I can dream right :angel:

[PAT303]

No I don't have roof racks Pat, and your point is BS given apple's for apple's.....Given you are a smart guy when it comes to most things mechanical, how is it a postitive two have to cars side by side, that look the same, same physical size, yet one has a higher COG and more mass further forward?

oh and the new defender doors are all steel!

I have both Serg and have driven both over tar and across dirt and the TDCi eats the Tdi over all conditions,the TDCi is the most predictable vehicle on dirt this side of the L322 I've ever driven.Remember,were talking 4wds here not Porche's. Pat

[uninformed]

I have both Serg and have driven both over tar and across dirt and the TDCi eats the Tdi over all conditions,the TDCi is the most predictable vehicle on dirt this side of the L322 I've ever driven.Remember,were talking 4wds here not Porche's. Pat

can you decribe more what you mean by predictable? If both are on stock springs, what is the difference in your mind? Could it be that the TDCi is alot newer and therefore tighter? No matter how good your bushes are on an old vehicle it will never be as tight as a new one of the same. Id bet that a TDCi would not handle corrogations as well as a 200tdi. Do you think the TDCi has better shocks stock than the TDi?

[PAT303]

The Tdi has firmer springs with Koni shocks,the TDCi is stock,the Tdi had all the bushes replaced 40K ago as well as the shocks and springs,the swivel hubs overhauled to new,new A frame ball joint etc and it drives as good as a Tdi can drive,the TDCi is still better.When I say the TDCi is predictable I mean I know what it's going to do,my eldest sister drove the Great Central with me at Xmas,she has never driven a 4wd before or driven on dirt roads,the reason she came with me and after a few hours she was totally comfortable behind the wheel,to the point where I had to ease her back a bit,she felt very confident and safe.My last four LR's,the Tdi,the Disco 1,L322 and now the TDCi have travelled many miles over Oz and the Tdi and D1 needed better shocks,IMHO the L322 and TDCi don't and the TDCi shocks will be replaced by genuine when they wear out,also I don't need lift kits or 35'' tyres to go where I go so needing DC shafts or bigger axles etc doesn't bother me.Just lastly my opinions are based on owning and driveing these vehicles in the outback,they are not based on ''my mate said'',''my mate had one'',''the bloke down the pub'' talk. Pat

[PAT303]

let me know how you go with a "by the book" complete fuel injection system overhaul.

The channel selector is the button on the left:eek:,or you probably don't own a modern radio with all that eledickery so turn the dial. Pat

[rovercare]

The channel selector is the button on the left:eek:,or you probably don't own a modern radio with all that eledickery so turn the dial. Pat

communication - YouTube

[Blknight.aus]

The channel selector is the button on the left:eek:,or you probably don't own a modern radio with all that eledickery so turn the dial. Pat

see now the problem with the job in question is totally unrelated to the eletronic side of things its the mechanical side of stuff...

but then you knew that.

the electronics are probably the most reliable part of the puma assembly its just a pity that a heap of the mechanical stuff that they are ment to control is just so much U/S....

it could also be that fords quality control is more on and off than an old fairbanks morse's governor.

[newhue]

phew, glad I missed this one. Been out camping in the rain.

I'd say without any doubt a TD5, a TDCi will do you proud.

One life, Live it

[lowbox]

One life, Live it

Or as the t-shirt says, "One Wife, Livid" :D

[numpty]

I. Also discovered the wipers have an intermittent setting but if you don't like the interval you can also just flick the lever briefly and get a "one shot" of the wiper action. Brilliant!:cool:
John B

As does the Td5 :cool:

[Allan]

Where to start, the heated Recaro seats, air conditionig that doesn't just cool my keys or testicles, a heater that warms the total vehicle, the ability to converse without shouting, six speed box, better lights (on the S.V.X. at least) better ride, more grunt, in standard trim at least, better looking dash etc. but I do love the TD5. The answer is to have one of each:D.

Allan

[Summiitt]

I think the tdci is miles ahead of the td5, I have 2 130 tray tops,one is a td5, one a tdci, both handle loads about the same, but the tdci is quieter,has better real world torque and the 6 speed gearbox is brilliant, particularly if your loaded or towing.

[ozscott]

Just go for a Disco 2 V8 manual and be done with it. :)

[redneb72]

Even though there has been opportunities to buy a number of defenders, I still haven't committed to either one.

All I know is that TD5's are holding some value in the used car market, and there seems to be a number of good opportunities to buy in the PUMA side of things......

Time will tell.

[MrLandy]

I drove the TDCi D90 down the driveway, past the Nissan, and out for a drive today. Put a smile on my face:). Appreciated being able to listen to the radio without inducing deafness. Also discovered the wipers have an intermittent setting but if you don't like the interval you can also just flick the lever briefly and get a "one shot" of the wiper action. Brilliant!:cool:

But tomorrow I'll take the S2a out, past the Nissan, for a drive. Don't know how I'll get on - with my left hand in a cast I might struggle without power steering. I'll be sure to open the front vents though for a rush of air - and maybe rain if this keeps up:(. I can guarantee I'll have the same smile on my face that I had today in the D90 though:).

The Nissan? It'll stay parked up. Anyone want to buy a boring Nissan GU ute? It'll go for a million kms with no problems, haul anything you want to move, costs bugger all to run really, will never get stuck and go anywhere you want. No smile though:p. No friendly waves from other Nissan drivers either:p. Cop a bit of flak from Toyota drivers, and the odd Landy driver, but pretty tame because there's not really any passion behind the jibes:p.

Go for a drive everyone! ... and smile because you're in a Landy!:)
Cheers
John B

Awesome post JB...

...I worried for far too long about my 98 300tdi breaking down in northern Australia, all because I had a shot turbo once! and that's it, other than standard maintenance, with 300,000km on the clock! And even then I still had a smile on my face! ...and I learnt to just smile knowingly at the toyota nissan owners jibes. ...especially when pulling toyota's out of bogs, flying down ANY kind of road in four coil low centre of gravity heaven, and despite the crazy noisy cabin!

NOW...I'm worrying again... do I upgrade to a 2.2 Puma before its too late?? ...Do I keep my 300tdi in case the puma breaks down :-) Do I worry because parts for the decommissioned Puma Defender will be hard to come by and service will be even more difficult in remote areas (which is most of this continent - let's be honest!), do I wait for then (new) Defender? Hmmm...I can fix my 300tdi myself. Wont be able to do that with a Puma! All those electrics, limp home mode stories of dust, water, ingress etc.. Isn't What to do?? ...all contributions gratefully received...

Cheers, Mr Landy.

[VladTepes]

If the eternal question is "TD5 or Puma?", then the eternal answer is "Tdi"


Anyone fellas now saying "but the Puma is more civilized" should take a good hard look at themselves, go buy a Disco, and hand back their testicles.... :D

[Blade74]

My TD5 has been awesome. Never an issue with it.
It doesn't even leak oil... :-)
Got it at 38k Km's. It now has 91k Km's.
Had it for 2.5 years.
Stepped out of a 3 year old new Disco 4 into the 90.
I've just bought a my10 TDV8 Vogue so might have to sell the TD5 90.
I don't want to but something's gotta give.
I can't own too many vehicles.

[jimr1]

I am lucky , because I have both , a td5 , and a Puma 2.2 I have had the td5 for a quite a few years . It has been and is a great vehicle . The problem It is starting to get a bit old . It has been well looked after , but would I jump in It and drive It to the top end and back ? No not without serious overhaul . That's being honest with myself . The Puma yes , because It a lot newer , done a lot less ks , and to be honest is a better vehicle . That's because Land Rover have improved them . Lets face It the last td5 were 2006 so there starting to get a bit old , that's not a criticism , It's just a fact !!.. Jim

[steane]

If the eternal question is "TD5 or Puma?", then the eternal answer is "Tdi"


Anyone fellas now saying "but the Puma is more civilized" should take a good hard look at themselves, go buy a Disco, and hand back their testicles.... :D

"Essence of Defender" isn't found in a new car showroom or by waving like a wally to every Land Rover you see. It takes years of hardship and toil to develop to full maturity and ooze out of every rivet.

Some Pumas will get there but not yet...not yet.

[tact]

"Essence of Defender" isn't found in a new car showroom or by waving like a wally to every Land Rover you see. It takes years of hardship and toil to develop to full maturity and ooze out of every rivet.

Some Pumas will get there but not yet...not yet.

I think you are mistaking the stains on your driveway, or as the case may be, the dead patches of grass, as the "essence of defender" leaking from every rivet of your TDi. You shouldn't be sniffing that stuff either, it evidently causes delusions!

I have a long history with Toyota 4x4s and after a few years without a 4x4 at all, when it was time to get another of course I romped into the Toyota dealer.

I wanted to buy a new 4x4. The previous one I bought new, some 15yrs before. When I test drove the then new 2013 Hilux (only Toyota 4x4 to be had new in Malaysia) - well I just new there and then I couldn't in all good conscience buy one.

Of course I would have NEVER thought to check out a new defender. Was struggling with all the options (Rangers, nissans, etc...) all being just as much lacking of any "essence" as does the Hilux.

Wife suggested looking at a new defender. What a JOKE! "Hahah yeah sure, luv, let's do that - the moment you sit your butt in the vehicle you'll want to run away."

I was sold after the first test drive, wife wanted a few more drives to try parking etc Three test drives in all over a 2 month period and we bought a brand new 2013 TDCi

THATS "essence".

[steane]

No stains on my driveway tact. It just sits there as I'm too afraid to drive it these days. Struggles to get to 100kmh and when it does its a white knuckle ride.:p

Just wish it had that all new second generation chassis and suspension, like yours does.:D Man that would be sweet.

But it has the essence and that takes time, so I'll have to be content with that I guess.

[tact]

No stains on my driveway tact. It just sits there as I'm too afraid to drive it these days. Struggles to get to 100kmh and when it does its a white knuckle ride.:p

Just wish it had that all new second generation chassis and suspension, like yours does.:D Man that would be sweet.

But it has the essence and that takes time, so I'll have to be content with that I guess.

Love your response. Definitely deserves full points!
:D

[1nando]

I think you are mistaking the stains on your driveway, or as the case may be, the dead patches of grass, as the "essence of defender" leaking from every rivet of your TDi. You shouldn't be sniffing that stuff either, it evidently causes delusions!

I have a long history with Toyota 4x4s and after a few years without a 4x4 at all, when it was time to get another of course I romped into the Toyota dealer.

I wanted to buy a new 4x4. The previous one I bought new, some 15yrs before. When I test drove the then new 2013 Hilux (only Toyota 4x4 to be had new in Malaysia) - well I just new there and then I couldn't in all good conscience buy one.

Of course I would have NEVER thought to check out a new defender. Was struggling with all the options (Rangers, nissans, etc...) all being just as much lacking of any "essence" as does the Hilux.

Wife suggested looking at a new defender. What a JOKE! "Hahah yeah sure, luv, let's do that - the moment you sit your butt in the vehicle you'll want to run away."

I was sold after the first test drive, wife wanted a few more drives to try parking etc Three test drives in all over a 2 month period and we bought a brand new 2013 TDCi

THATS "essence".

Tact: I enjoy reading your posts mate. Just when I'm trying to word something to say, you come out and say exactly what I'm thinking. Well done sir.

Your story is not so dissimilar to mine

Sent from my GT-I9505 using AULRO mobile app

[tact]

Tact: I enjoy reading your posts mate. Just when I'm trying to word something to say, you come out and say exactly what I'm thinking. Well done sir.

Your story is not so dissimilar to mine


Hehehe was enjoying my latte and felt some warm gusts up my kilt. Checked the forum - now I know why. ;) (kidding!)

[tact]

I once wrote something similar to the following, not sure if in these esteemed forums or elsewhere, and seems like this topic is as good as any to break the thought out again:

Painting with the broadest brush there are essentially 2 types of TDCi owners:
- the first time Defender owner bought a shiny new TDCi
- the landy-lifer, the repeat offender, who after a series of older models in a history longer than his beard - bought a TDCi

The former: realised instantly that his TDCi was superior in every regard to all its predecessors. He had done the requisite reading (can spell "google" and knows how to use it). So he knew of the legendary unreliability of older models. He had even seen the bearded sages (the latter, from above), long time owners of older models, lamenting their archaic rides and how they struggle to reach 100kmh and white knuckle tales.

The latter: Can't spell google but his computer literate nephew helped him once to find AULRO. He read with wonderment all the grand reports of the TDCi crowd and at first would not believe it. Then denial set in - "well they may have a green oval but they are NOT real land rovers". Then reality bites so he dug up ridiculous reasons to hate "they have electronics! you can still hear your wife nag at well over 100kmh!". Then, grudgingly, he caved and bought one. Insidious thoughts about TDCi superiority, in every measure, grow evey day, creeping up on him like the neighbour's pumpkin vine.

So TDCi owners across these venerable forums: Whether you knew immediately. Whether it took a while to get your grudging admiration. Fact remains:

TDCi's are better, by every measure, in every way, than any predecessor.

[EastFreo]

I think there may be a third group. First time owner but brought up with series models and td5 farm defenders.

[MrLandy]

Indeed tact, Puma 2.2 Defenders are far superior to any other vehicle in many ways! And everyone will come around one day! ��...agreed. ...their refinement and power outweighs their electrickery and hence reliability, yes. And the aircon! Oh Yes.! .

..but not in every way. The 'engine note' of both Isuzu and TDI diesels are far superior; the simpler interior and front vent flaps are much better, inside feels lighter, freer , more open somehow. But that's about it!

...I have an idea, Pete from BAS if you're listening... I've heard about 'engine note' tuning, maybe there's a way to make a puma sound like an isuzu!?!?

Lookout! isuzu aficionados are about to descend on my blasphemy! ��

Having said that, I really like the puma air intake purr with the window down, it's distinctive in its own way.

All Defenders have the 'essence'... I'm lucky I have a Puma and a 300 TDI. My 98 purrs at 100kmh. And he rattles, shakes, vibrates!!! But I love him. AND I love the quiet powerful confidence of my puma! That everyday Defender 'feeling that can't be described' and nothing else can provide. ...AND I wish I had an Isuzu county AND a series 3 shorty AND a series 1 beauty!

[JayBoRover]

You forgot the lovely growl of a V8 101FC:angel:

[cuppabillytea]

Great posting everyone. I wish I had one of each and every model Land Rover, But the TDCi will do beautifully until one fine day when my collection begins.

[manic]

Tact..

I just drove ~8000km taking the gunbarrel hwy and other pounding trails through the center and back to Melbourne in a very well maintained tdi and two pumas (none towing). Rotating cars for research we found not much has changed over the years. The tdci was better up hills at highway speeds and the tdi more fun on dirt at speed with diff lock as the only traction aid.

Noise level difference was negligible, most noise at 110kph being wind noise.

Dash on pumas take more space, less customisable but sturdier on corrugations.

Suspension, handling differences does not factor. Same set up and customisation available across the years. The tdi was better but it was not original spring/shocks.

Tdci is not fast but short throw gearbox and better spread of ratios gets the best out of the motor and makes it feel less 'truck like' to drive. But we noticed the ecu on the pedal, smoothing and dipping the throttle input. We all noticed a lag when hitting the pedal after gear change on both pumas.

So a tdci is not superior in every way over previous defenders because it is mostly the same. It has slightly more power through the gears, less rattle in the dash and better aircon delivery. That is about all our group flagged as improvement. The tdci has lost bulkhead vents, platform/spare bonnet and simplicity.

we found the tdci easier to cruise on the highway but all five drivers preferred the tdi offroad for its pure control and drivers feel.

All three vehicles completed the trip without issue, having taken a real pounding. One of the pumas failed to start and had to be pushed out of the way - then it started... cause unknown, but not an issue in the end.

If you are looking to tow around australia - get the most recent defender you can afford. If looking to drive to Africa, build up a tdi or county.

[MrLandy]

You forgot the lovely growl of a V8 101FC:angel:

Yes apols, never driven a V8...

[steane]

Tact..

I just drove ~8000km taking the gunbarrel hwy and other pounding trails through the center and back to Melbourne in a very well maintained tdi and two pumas (none towing). Rotating cars for research we found not much has changed over the years. The tdci was better up hills at highway speeds and the tdi more fun on dirt at speed with diff lock as the only traction aid.

Noise level difference was negligible, most noise at 110kph being wind noise.

Dash on pumas take more space, less customisable but sturdier on corrugations.

Suspension, handling differences does not factor. Same set up and customisation available across the years. The tdi was better but it was not original spring/shocks.

Tdci is not fast but short throw gearbox and better spread of ratios gets the best out of the motor and makes it feel less 'truck like' to drive. But we noticed the ecu on the pedal, smoothing and dipping the throttle input. We all noticed a lag when hitting the pedal after gear change on both pumas.

So a tdci is not superior in every way over previous defenders because it is mostly the same. It has slightly more power through the gears, less rattle in the dash and better aircon delivery. That is about all our group flagged as improvement. The tdci has lost bulkhead vents, platform/spare bonnet and simplicity.

we found the tdci easier to cruise on the highway but all five drivers preferred the tdi offroad for its pure control and drivers feel.

All three vehicles completed the trip without issue, having taken a real pounding. One of the pumas failed to start and had to be pushed out of the way - then it started... cause unknown, but not an issue in the end.

If you are looking to tow around australia - get the most recent defender you can afford. If looking to drive to Africa, build up a tdi or county.

I've been waiting patiently for a response like this. The Defender hasn't actually changed that much over the decades, aside from powertrain and dashboard. The idea that a new one somehow rides better, handles at speed better or has less rattles than an old one is simply because it is NEW. Bushes are new, shocks are new, steering box is new etc.

Been funny reading the responses though.

[tact]

I've been waiting patiently for a response like this. The Defender hasn't actually changed that much over the decades, aside from powertrain and dashboard. The idea that a new one somehow rides better, handles at speed better or has less rattles than an old one is simply because it is NEW. Bushes are new, shocks are new, steering box is new etc.

Been funny reading the responses though.

Yes a good write up. If not much has changed then that cuts both ways.

I say "if" because I really wouldn't know the full story on what has changed and what has not. I am one of those "a TDCi is my first Defender" blokes.

Maybe TDCi's are only better handling because they are new. Maybe they only make more power because they are new.

But if every good thing about a TDCi is - just because its new and nothing else is is changed much: Then by definition, in every way the TDCi is superior than all its predecessors - simply because its not.... old.

Yes you can recondition an old defender and perhaps even bring it back to showroom newness. Yes you can improve on an old defender with aftermarket products.

You can do that with a TDCi too. (when it gets old and tired, barely able to do 100kmh, and scares the bejeezus out of you at speed)

But before we all start the group hugs and sing kumbaya - all that "not much has changed" stuff is just bollocks. :twisted:

- electrickery
- engine
- gearbox
- NVH engineering

[manic]

A 2008 TDCI would be considered old by some. A 2013 is getting old and I doubt the TDCI ages any better than the older models. The 2008 TDCI on our trip was wandering all over the place with loose steering and leaked into the footwells when it rained.... Same old story.

NVH engineering - hahaha gold!

Tact - As a TDCI first defender bloke you should know that the defender coming out the showroom today is essentially the same build as day one, only now they are further behind the times than ever before.

You cannot say that the new tdci powered defender is superior to the older motors because it has not stood the same test of time. The TDCI is not a land rover engine and years in the future when looking back in hindsight, the TDCI may not be looked at in highest regard.

But you are right, it's hard to beat a brand new defender!

[PAT303]

I've been waiting patiently for a response like this. The Defender hasn't actually changed that much over the decades, aside from powertrain and dashboard. The idea that a new one somehow rides better, handles at speed better or has less rattles than an old one is simply because it is NEW. Bushes are new, shocks are new, steering box is new etc.

Been funny reading the responses though.

If you think so. Pat

[MrLandy]

Has anyone done 200,000km in a TDCI? Interested to know how engine/gearbox are feeling at middle age?

Obviously the body, chassis and dynamics haven't changed, but quietness and smoothness have changed a little. But mercifly not too much! ...Otherwise it would be a 'new' Defender!

Everything definately loosens up. Rattles. My 2014 already has classic Defender body creaks over rough terrain. Flex. Like an airplane. Love it. Character and smooth humble power. The Defender TDCI is beautiful.

[tact]

Has anyone done 200,000km in a TDCI? Interested to know how engine/gearbox are feeling at middle age?

Obviously the body, chassis and dynamics haven't changed, but quietness and smoothness have changed a little. But mercifly not too much! ...Otherwise it would be a 'new' Defender!

Everything definately loosens up. Rattles. My 2014 already has classic Defender body creaks over rough terrain. Flex. Like an airplane. Love it. Character and smooth humble power. The Defender TDCI is beautiful.

230,000 MILES TDCi.... Original engine, drivetrain, etc
DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - 230,000 miles today (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic11626.html)

[tact]

A 2008 TDCI would be considered old by some. A 2013 is getting old and I doubt the TDCI ages any better than the older models. The 2008 TDCI on our trip was wandering all over the place with loose steering and leaked into the footwells when it rained.... Same old story.

[...]

You cannot say that the new tdci powered defender is superior to the older motors because it has not stood the same test of time.


See there you go - can't have it both ways. In a universe where old and new defenders are "the same" - how can the new not have stood the test of time!?

How can the new not have the "essence" steane proclaims to be the domain only of older Defenders - if there is nothing new about new Defenders!?

And if there is nothing different between old models and TDCi's - I most certainly claim TDCi's are better, just because they ARE newer. (C'mon: shiny new item vs same item but old --- new one is better.)

Truth is - the cry of "nothing new" about TDCi's is bollocks. Some things seem to never change (leaks in footwell etc) . But clearly some significant changes are in play. And because of that, you and steane do have a case - the TDCi does have to prove itself. (Are we there yet? - ref: the previous post about 230k mile TDCi)

We agree that the chassis/handling may only be better in a new TDCi because it's new. But then your point that a 2013 TDCi may be seen by some as old does have legs. How about my old 2013 TDCi, it still handles as well as new, even at high speeds, no suspension or steering parts yet changed, doesn't wander all over the road.

So is the "better only because it's new" argument getting a bit thin too? Now that there "old" TDCi's around and at least one I know of is still going well on original running gear (and a whole lot more too I reckon). Can't have that both ways either.

[Pickles2]

Never owned a TD5, so I'm only one of those guys who's "read" about it!!, but I DO know that TD5 owners LOVE their engine, and obviously for good reason.
However, IMHO, the Puma 2.2 does a good job, a VERY good job, in view of its small capacity, & weight of the Defender.
But for me, the advantage of the Puma, is not the engine, but the 6 speed OD gearbox, which makes long distance driving an absolute dream,....around 2000rpm @ 100ks,.....that is the main benefit for me, plus of course the A/C system is better, as is the stereo, but for me mainly, it's the OD gearbox.
Pickles.

[ATH]

Got to agree about the gearbox. Our 2.4 2010 pulls our small 1.5t van much much better than our 3ltr Prado did. In that if you kicked down a gear all you got was more noise no extra grunt.
Plus the vehicle drives as straight as it ever did at 140K without wandering or other older car habits. Apart from axles made from cheese that is.:(
Not a bad vehicle so far.
AlanH.

[Tombie]

Never owned a TD5, so I'm only one of those guys who's "read" about it!!, but I DO know that TD5 owners LOVE their engine, and obviously for good reason.
However, IMHO, the Puma 2.2 does a good job, a VERY good job, in view of its small capacity, & weight of the Defender.
But for me, the advantage of the Puma, is not the engine, but the 6 speed OD gearbox, which makes long distance driving an absolute dream,....around 2000rpm @ 100ks,.....that is the main benefit for me, plus of course the A/C system is better, as is the stereo, but for me mainly, it's the OD gearbox.
Pickles.

Had both (still have the TDCi) and the TDci is a cut above...

Saying that, would have a TD5 any day, brilliant engine...

[tact]

Got to agree about the gearbox. Our 2.4 2010 pulls our small 1.5t van much much better than our 3ltr Prado did. In that if you kicked down a gear all you got was more noise no extra grunt.
Plus the vehicle drives as straight as it ever did at 140K without wandering or other older car habits. Apart from axles made from cheese that is.:(
Not a bad vehicle so far.
AlanH.

Absolutely! The gearbox is damn good. The OD 6th is excellent on the highways.

Equally good (and far different to earlier Defenders) is the very low 1st gear in off-road and towing scenarios (and even bumper to bumper traffic jams)

Getting rid of a LOT of driveline slack recently with installation of HD drive flanges was an eye opener for me. Driving away from the workshop (yes I paid someone to do such a simple job for me) I really thought "Hey! Did the mechanic slip a full Toyota driveline in!?"

I.e. The excellent gearbox, with much reduced driveline slop, was allowed to shine even more!

[manic]

See there you go - can't have it both ways. In a universe where old and new defenders are "the same" - how can the new not have stood the test of time!?

Don't get silly now.

I fear you may have a tendency to twist words in absurd ways. I observed that not much has changed. Perhaps I should rephrase that and say that they come across as incredibly similar. The puma's feel more refined on the road.

The post about the 200,000 mile puma is not very impressive considering it was serviced with new oil and filters every week. There are 400,000+ mile TDI's running around on vegetable oil.

Personally I hope the TDCI's run on and on and turn out to be the most reliable, rust free and lasting Defender ever. Perhaps it will turn out to be the best generation to ever leave Solihull. The jury is still out. But what is great about the `defender` is that from 1980's to present all of them can be built up beyond current factory spec in your own back yard!

[PAT303]

Has anyone done 200,000km in a TDCI? Interested to know how engine/gearbox are feeling at middle age?

Obviously the body, chassis and dynamics haven't changed, but quietness and smoothness have changed a little. But mercifly not too much! ...Otherwise it would be a 'new' Defender!

Everything definately loosens up. Rattles. My 2014 already has classic Defender body creaks over rough terrain. Flex. Like an airplane. Love it. Character and smooth humble power. The Defender TDCI is beautiful.

There's probably more TDCi's with 200K on the clock,and flogged all the way than you can poke a stick at.Engine life is a stupid question in my opinion. Pat

[tact]

Don't get silly now.

I fear you may have a tendency to twist words in absurd ways. I observed that not much has changed. Perhaps I should rephrase that and say that they come across as incredibly similar. The puma's feel more refined on the road.

The post about the 200,000 mile puma is not very impressive considering it was serviced with new oil and filters every week. There are 400,000+ mile TDI's running around on vegetable oil.

Personally I hope the TDCI's run on and on and turn out to be the most reliable, rust free and lasting Defender ever. Perhaps it will turn out to be the best generation to ever leave Solihull. The jury is still out. But what is great about the `defender` is that from 1980's to present all of them can be built up beyond current factory spec in your own back yard!

Fear not, good Sir. Change the 4 occurrences where I used words to the effect of "the same". Change them to "incredibly similar" or words to that effect.

The result is incredibly little impact on my points. Without any twisting or turning.

In any case I really don't subscribe to the idea that the older defenders and the TDCi's are "incredibly similar".

Whilst there are major similarities (chassis, suspension, most body work, and some of the driveline are shared), there are major differences in very key areas:
- totally different engines with different, variable, turbos
- better power delivery i.e. more of it and better spread than TD5 per my 2013 Defender product brochure from Land Rover. Better for the highway, towing, and off-road also per the brochure from LR. (Yes, the TD5 is actually in print on the LR TDCi brochure as noted here).
- totally different gearbox. "Slicker" gear changes were also mentioned in the brochure, improving the driving experience. There seems to be a body of user experience also backing this up.
- with more gears, lower low gear, higher top gear (and again according to the LR brochure brings improvements over past models on the highway, off-road, and towing.)

So my conclusion is that in the very significant areas where the older defenders and TDCi models ARE incredibly similar, perhaps "the same" - newer is better just because it is new.

In the major areas where the old and new models are vastly different - then perhaps it's arguable whether the TDCi will in time prove to be as durable as the older models. What is not arguable is that TDCi's are by and large doing pretty well and some are getting up there in the age and mileage stakes.

[1nando]

Evolution is a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

Accept the change for what it is, whether you like it or not the puma is the cherry on the cake when it comes to defenders.

My opinion.


Sent from my GT-I9505 using AULRO mobile app

[PAT303]

This is AULRO,we don't like change,well some don't. Pat

[1nando]

This is AULRO,we don't like change,well some don't. Pat

Is that why we are all talking land rovers in a specific forum on the Internet in 2015????
The tdi, td5 was so yesterday......lol

Sent from my GT-I9505 using AULRO mobile app

[MrLandy]

This is AULRO,we don't like change,well some don't. Pat

Everything changes all the time, it's the spice of life. It's how a new Defender becomes an old Defender.

[manic]

Evolution is a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.


Same form with a ford engine/gearbox combo shoved in.

Evolution might be more evident in the defender replacement, and when that comes out we can all sell our rubbish old models and go next gen.

[MrLandy]

Yeah, can't wait to 'upgrade' to a hiluxrangertritonbt50amarokdefender!

[tact]

Same form with a ford engine/gearbox combo shoved in.

Evolution might be more evident in the defender replacement, and when that comes out we can all sell our rubbish old models and go next gen.

I'll just keep my old rubbish model I reckon.

[manic]

But change is the spice of life and the tdci will be so last century, why resist the newer = better model? It will be faster, quieter and tow better for sure.

[tact]

But change is the spice of life and the tdci will be so last century, why resist the newer = better model? It will be faster, quieter and tow better for sure.

You paint a tempting picture. I do like to buy new. The last three were at 7yr intervals. In 5yrs my TDCi will be 7yrs old. So if the new defender is out by 2020 it might get a look in.

Though when I bought this current TDCi I resolved it's the last car I ever buy (for myself). Am old enough to say things like that now.

[cuppabillytea]

I was told once that the first Law of nature is that: All order will decay.

[rar110]

This contribution will probably trashed.

I have had my turboed Isuzu 110 for years. I decided to start looking for something more modern.

I took a td5 for a drive. It was a bit better as it had air con. The Puma 2.2 was better again no doubt with nicer interior and better air con. But considering the Puma was 23 years younger I was disappointed. I only had one drive but I found 6 gears a real PIA. I actually thought the ride in my car was nicer. The suspension in both was much harsher. Anyway, I wasn't enticed enough by either.

I went in a direction I would not have contemplated 2 years earlier. Its great if others like their td5 or Puma. Neither was for me. It will be interesting what LR does next.

[tact]

No stains on my driveway tact. It just sits there as I'm too afraid to drive it these days. Struggles to get to 100kmh and when it does its a white knuckle ride.:p


Psssst...! Had a white knuckles moment or two in my TDCi today as it made its way to 100..... . . . .. . . .. (MPH!!)

Test run after fitting larger intercooler and loading a 170hp tune. I find those speeds scary in my Defender. Still didn't wander all over the road though.

[ozscott]

Bloody hell. Where was the 5 mile straight?

[EastFreo]

Bloody hell. Where was the 5 mile straight?

And that is for the braking!

[steane]

Psssst...! Had a white knuckles moment or two in my TDCi today as it made its way to 100..... . . . .. . . .. (MPH!!)

Test run after fitting larger intercooler and loading a 170hp tune. I find those speeds scary in my Defender. Still didn't wander all over the road though.

That's great tact. That would be down to Land Rover spending all of those millions of pounds re-engineering the Puma for high speed handling. It's remarkable what a few weeks testing at the Nurburgring will do.

I heard that they were doing laps in a 2.2 110 in under 7 mins thanks to that new semi-apoplectic integrated body and spring steel chassis combination and lets not forget those big Brembo stoppers!

Heard somewhere else today that they've fitted a massive stock exhaust as well.:cool: sight to behold apparently, when you are underneath looking up at it and would no-doubt have helped get the lap times down.

It'll all be in the brochure somewhere.;)

Also read just today that Land Rover will be releasing one last special edition 2.2 before they stop making them altogether, to celebrate the performance records the Defender has been breaking recently.

Only available in bright orange metallic they are calling it the 'Burning Ring' special. It's aimed at those who are new to the marque and don't know much. Comes with a full set of leather bound dealer brochures and a step by step guide to the history of the Defender that includes the original Land Rover 90 and 110, along with an extra bag of the fairy dust that some recent 2.2 owners are getting a real jolt out of sniffing. Makes them go a bit silly but is apparently great for the libido, although can interfere with steering if sniffed while driving.

Gonna cost a bit though. Only 69 of them.

[tact]

That's great tact. That would be down to Land Rover spending all of those millions of pounds re-engineering the Puma for high speed handling. It's remarkable what a few weeks testing at the Nurburgring will do.
[...]


Awww... and I was being serious for a bit. Really was a bit scary - didn't want to even glance at instruments. (Fortunately I had the live data recording on and could review later.) ;)

[tact]

Bloody hell. Where was the 5 mile straight?

:twisted: They really don't need a run up - the stock 2.2 TDCi is speed limited to 140something (90mph) and gets up there pretty willingly. Throw in an extra 50 ponies and remove the speed limiter - 160kmh doesn't take so long to reach.

but having done it once... wouldn't be doing it again

(well maybe once or twice more...) :angel:

[Summiitt]

Puma every time..run both together for work
, the Td5 is a pig compared to the puma..

[manic]

Jeez Tact I hope your motor lasts til 2020 , 160kph in a defender is painful. You not got a more suitable car you can use to speed about in?

[1nando]

That's great tact. That would be down to Land Rover spending all of those millions of pounds re-engineering the Puma for high speed handling. It's remarkable what a few weeks testing at the Nurburgring will do.

I heard that they were doing laps in a 2.2 110 in under 7 mins thanks to that new semi-apoplectic integrated body and spring steel chassis combination and lets not forget those big Brembo stoppers!

Heard somewhere else today that they've fitted a massive stock exhaust as well.:cool: sight to behold apparently, when you are underneath looking up at it and would no-doubt have helped get the lap times down.

It'll all be in the brochure somewhere.;)

Also read just today that Land Rover will be releasing one last special edition 2.2 before they stop making them altogether, to celebrate the performance records the Defender has been breaking recently.

Only available in bright orange metallic they are calling it the 'Burning Ring' special. It's aimed at those who are new to the marque and don't know much. Comes with a full set of leather bound dealer brochures and a step by step guide to the history of the Defender that includes the original Land Rover 90 and 110, along with an extra bag of the fairy dust that some recent 2.2 owners are getting a real jolt out of sniffing. Makes them go a bit silly but is apparently great for the libido, although can interfere with steering if sniffed while driving.

Gonna cost a bit though. Only 69 of them.

Lmao. Lol......hat off to you sir

Sent from my GT-I9505 using AULRO mobile app

[PAT303]

Lmao. Lol......hat off to you sir

Sent from my GT-I9505 using AULRO mobile app

It's OK,our responses are just for laughs,the pinnacle of defender development was the 1994 300 Tdi. ;). Pat

[MrLandy]

It's OK,our responses are just for laughs,the pinnacle of defender development was the 1994 300 Tdi. ;). Pat

...I thought it was the one yet to be built Pat! 😄

[steane]

It's OK,our responses are just for laughs,the pinnacle of defender development was the 1994 300 Tdi. ;). Pat

Can you please stay on topic Pat. This thread concerns the TD5 and Puma. Your thoughts regarding the 300TDi aren't relevant here.;)

[manic]

If Land Rover offered brand new defenders with options

- classic or modern dash
- tdi, td5 or tdci powered

Most would choose the TDCI with modern dash, because for most people there is no reason not to.

I would get a brand new TDI with classic dash as my ready to go anywhere in the world collectors edition. Sacrificing refinement for the ability to eat through crap fuel, go snorkel submarine, force the fuel solenoid and start the engine off a roll should my batteries die. The perfect machine for a transglobal 'expedition' like adventure.

But if I had to drive the blasted thing everyday and satisfy privileged passengers, I'd get the TD5 with new dash. It is up there in power with the TDCI, has had more time to prove itself, and it has a land rover engine/gearbox/tc set up made for purpose. For those reasons I'd feel more confident in the longevity of the set up over the current TDCI offering.

But that's dream land.

Thankfully I do not use a defender as a daily driver, there are cars better suited to pottering around town. But if for some reason I needed one for daily work I would not hesitate to get a brand new TDCI.

Just look at current sales, it's not just because it is going out of production; loads of first time owners are buying in because the TDCI is the least abrasive defender ever made. I can see it here in Melbourne. People are using TDCI defenders in the city as daily drivers now - they are that good!

[PAT303]

I think LR should have taken the Tdi out to 2.8 and not bothered with the Td5,I'd rather one less piston and a longer stroke.The TDCi in 3.2ltre doesn't feel like it has any torque improvement over the 2.4 the same way the Td5 doesn't over the Tdi. Pat

[rar110]

I think LR should have taken the Tdi out to 2.8 and not bothered with the Td5,I'd rather one less piston and a longer stroke.The TDCi in 3.2ltre doesn't feel like it has any torque improvement over the 2.4 the same way the Td5 doesn't over the Tdi. Pat

I'm hoping the next defender will leak frog this market segment like the first Range Rover. It would make sense for LR build on the award winning D3/4 and apply some of that technology.

[Disco Muppet]

I think LR should have taken the Tdi out to 2.8 and not bothered with the Td5,I'd rather one less piston and a longer stroke.The TDCi in 3.2ltre doesn't feel like it has any torque improvement over the 2.4 the same way the Td5 doesn't over the Tdi. Pat

Oooh Pat, you know just how to get my alarm bells ringing :twisted:

[PAT303]

Nothing wrong with the Td5 as a motor but the defender needs bottom end torque,the 2.5's don't have any. Pat

[Landy Smurf]

I just bought a TD5. I have not driven in a TDCi though.
I can compare the TD5 to the 300TDi.
If I had to choose I would probably go the 300TDi.
In saying that the TD5 does pull hard when you put your foot down. There is quite a long steep hill near where i live and I can just keep 5th all the way up.

Now that this thread is on a bit the KMs on the TDCi's would be higher and maybe a better judgement on the comparison between the two.

[DiscoMick]

I've had a 300 Tdi and a TDCi. The TDCi is much better. And the six-speed makes a huge difference to highway cruising.

[DazzaTD5]

Note:
I havent read through the OP's huge essay or the 11 pages debating it... soooo IMHO:
TDCi (puma) is the best Defender Land Rover have built AND WILL be the best Defender Land Rover will ever build.

We have gone from a scroll of 50 million faults on previous models (TD5) down to a handful of faults.

[Zeros]

I've never owned a TD5 so can't compare, but it sounds like they are great to drive but had many gremlins.

While a little of the OP's topic, perhaps this will be helpful to some...

Having both a 300 TDI (320,000km) and TDCI (100,000km) I am constantly comparing the two.

I use the TDI more as a daily driver now, but it's done extensive bush / touring work over almost 20 years. The TDCI I use for touring and when I want aircon LOL.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

TDCI has steel bonnet & doors, while TDI are all aluminium = more rust/strength / heavier and less dents vs dents / lighter / less prone to rust.

TDI - Pros:
- Uses less fuel; noticeably lighter; front air vents; better rear diff; bullet proof driveline (except rear axles / flanges); simple mechanically; no ECU / sensors etc; more fuel tolerant;
TDI - Cons;
- Noiser; less powerful engine; only 5 speed;

TDCI - Pros:
- Much quieter / smoother to drive; More powerful engine; 6 speed; air-conditioning; electric windows; better seat backs; better second row seats;
TDCI - Cons:
- Adapter shaft between TC and Gearbox must be replaced / lubed; Weaker transfer case (ashcroft ATB excellent fix); more complex electronics; uses more fuel than TDI;

Showstoppers:
TDI - seized alternator at 250,000km
TDCI - zero

Servicing:
TDI - cheaper parts and slightly easier
TDCI - gearbox oil change is a pain

If I had to let go of one? ....neither LOL. ...actually I would keep the TDI (for simplicity & sentimental reasons). But i love driving both.

[Robmacca]

Zero.... Good to know :)

I'm in the same boat as u.... having '95 Defender 110 Wgn (sort of my daily driver), '09 Tdci Puma 110 wgn (currently prepping it for a desert crossing this year), but I also have a Tdi300 Disco-1(daily driver when I want AC and feeling lazy and want an Auto) which I also love as well.... IS and would be very hard to part with any one of them... If only rego was cheaper up here in Qld :(



I've never owned a TD5 so can't compare, but it sounds like they are great to drive but had many gremlins.

While a little of the OP's topic, perhaps this will be helpful to some...

Having both a 300 TDI (320,000km) and TDCI (100,000km) I am constantly comparing the two.

I use the TDI more as a daily driver now, but it's done extensive bush / touring work over almost 20 years. The TDCI I use for touring and when I want aircon LOL.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

TDCI has steel bonnet & doors, while TDI are all aluminium = more rust/strength / heavier and less dents vs dents / lighter / less prone to rust.

TDI - Pros:
- Uses less fuel; noticeably lighter; front air vents; better rear diff; bullet proof driveline (except rear axles / flanges); simple mechanically; no ECU / sensors etc; more fuel tolerant;
TDI - Cons;
- Noiser; less powerful engine; only 5 speed;

TDCI - Pros:
- Much quieter / smoother to drive; More powerful engine; 6 speed; air-conditioning; electric windows; better seat backs; better second row seats;
TDCI - Cons:
- Adapter shaft between TC and Gearbox must be replaced / lubed; Weaker transfer case (ashcroft ATB excellent fix); more complex electronics; uses more fuel than TDI;

Showstoppers:
TDI - seized alternator at 250,000km
TDCI - zero

Servicing:
TDI - cheaper parts and slightly easier
TDCI - gearbox oil change is a pain

If I had to let go of one? ....neither LOL. ...actually I would keep the TDI (for simplicity & sentimental reasons). But i love driving both.

[weeds]

Wonder what the OP went with...

[Orkney 90]

After reading through all 13 pages, it seems to me that the OP went with a TDCi Puma.

Personally I have owned my TDCi for 6 years now and the one and only thing I have had to replace on it (whilst still under warranty) was one hinge of the sunroof. This snapped with a loud ping when I was closing the sunroof. Apart from that and normal servicing items, nothing else has been replaced or broken. Now I know a lot of people who purchased a whole variety of brand new cars from various marques and have had a hell of a lot more issues with them over the same time frame than a small sunroof hinge. Two of those cars didn't even last 6 years.


Even looking back at all the cars that I have owned over the years, my 2013 TDCi Puma 90 is the most reliable car I have ever owned. Can't complain about that.

[Zeros]

Excellent. How many kms has your 90 done? Have you replaced any driveline parts as preventative maintenance? Adapter shaft? Axles/flanges?

[DiscoMick]

Yep. One clutch for mine, plus a broken wire to one of the rear door locks. Also replaced a plastic heater valve. Done 127,000 Ks.

[ezyrama]

I've had the intercooler changed, (Turbo hoses, ecu & MAF sensor changed beforehand as they couldn't find the split intercooler)
recall on the output shaft didnt fix the noise, so they replaced the gearbox, then the clutch, pressure plate etc.
Corrosion around the alpine windows was repaired, and they replaced the fuel filler hoses and associated breather hoses after
it dumped diesel all over on my drive outside of warranty and they did it as good will because it was serviced its entire life at LR.
Luckily it was all done as warranty and I have a great dealer that looked after me really well, and gave me a loaner each time I had an issue.
I own, and have owned and driven Series 2's Series 3's, 300tdi, and driven TD5's, whilst I would have any of them, I wouldn't give up my Puma, love it!

[DiscoMick]

I've had the intercooler changed, (Turbo hoses, ecu & MAF sensor changed beforehand as they couldn't find the split intercooler)
recall on the output shaft didnt fix the noise, so they replaced the gearbox, then the clutch, pressure plate etc.
Corrosion around the alpine windows was repaired, and they replaced the fuel filler hoses and associated breather hoses after
it dumped diesel all over on my drive outside of warranty and they did it as good will because it was serviced its entire life at LR.
Luckily it was all done as warranty and I have a great dealer that looked after me really well, and gave me a loaner each time I had an issue.
I own, and have owned and driven Series 2's Series 3's, 300tdi, and driven TD5's, whilst I would have any of them, I wouldn't give up my Puma, love it!
Did your split intercooler cause a whistle, particularly when accelerating in the lower gears?

[djam1]

TD5 Defender 270000 kms the only warranty claims were dents in the body.
Have done much preventative maintenance but it’s never failed to proceed

[Robmacca]

Just curious here.... but has anyone had to replace their PUMA Injectors &/or TD5 Injectors and what is the cost comparisons like?

[djam1]

Just curious here.... but has anyone had to replace their PUMA Injectors &/or TD5 Injectors and what is the cost comparisons like?

TD5 Injectors have a design life of 800000 ks and very rarely fail.
You can buy them for about $400 each if you ever needed them.
Puma no idea

[MLD]

Just curious here.... but has anyone had to replace their PUMA Injectors &/or TD5 Injectors and what is the cost comparisons like?

Re 2.4 Puma - what i'm about to write is antidotal based on my engine failure and paying attention to posts others describe which are similar. There are about a dozen examples (that i'm aware of) of the bosch injectors failing around the 100,000 to 150,000 kms mark. LR switched to siemens injectors around MY13 and i haven't seen any complaints for that injector. I asked Baileys Diesel Group if i can swap to the siemens and was told no. about $400 each for OEM, $350 for Baileys Diesel blue printed injectors. Not a huge problem but expensive if symptoms are ignore or an injector goes without notice (as most do)

[Robmacca]

Re 2.4 Puma - what i'm about to write is antidotal based on my engine failure and paying attention to posts others describe which are similar. There are about a dozen examples (that i'm aware of) of the bosch injectors failing around the 100,000 to 150,000 kms mark. LR switched to siemens injectors around MY13 and i haven't seen any complaints for that injector. I asked Baileys Diesel Group if i can swap to the siemens and was told no. about $400 each for OEM, $350 for Baileys Diesel blue printed injectors. Not a huge problem but expensive if symptoms are ignore or an injector goes without notice (as most do)

Which is the better - OEM or Baileys ??

Also, I was told from MR Auto that the injectors are about $1000 each which was a bit scary.... I'm assuming one could buy overseas if one needed to?

[ezyrama]

Did your split intercooler cause a whistle, particularly when accelerating in the lower gears?

Hi Mick
No, It took them about 2 weeks to find the split, They gave me a loaner and a mechanic (who is now an independent here now) drove it home
and back trying to find the source of the MIL fault. It only seemed to do it on max boost, like when he would almost stop and the 1st gear pull ,
hard pull up a driveway would only sometimes make it fault out. It was a 2nd smoke test that found the split and I was told the flimsy aluminium
would flex open, then closed again when boost was applied. That was their story and they stuck to it. :)
Cheers Ian

[MLD]

Hi Mick
No, It took them about 2 weeks to find the split, They gave me a loaner and a mechanic (who is now an independent here now) drove it home
and back trying to find the source of the MIL fault. It only seemed to do it on max boost, like when he would almost stop and the 1st gear pull ,
hard pull up a driveway would only sometimes make it fault out. It was a 2nd smoke test that found the split and I was told the flimsy aluminium
would flex open, then closed again when boost was applied. That was their story and they stuck to it. :)
Cheers Ian

I know of 2 others that had a split at the join of the plastic to aluminium on the intercooler.

Robmacca, google Bailey Diesel and see for yourself. They sell OEM and their blueprinted recon injectors. Which are better? Some on this forum say the Bosch injector is problematic (i can't use the word ****) so new or recon might not give you much comfort either way. Personally i had positive experience with Bailey Diesel and would buy their recon unit. As for $1,000 an injector. The TD5 injectors were the price of gold a few years ago but seem to be more affordable now. Supply and demand doesn't put the puma injector in the same boat as the TD5 injector.

[cuppabillytea]

Splits are easy to find. Just look for black oil smears. There you have it.