To much lift! (Is there any such thing?)

[Pat The Rat]

Hi all,
First of all thanks to all who have contributed to the various suspension / shock / spring threads in the past, I have found searching through them very helpful.
Let me tell you where I am now at with my 110’s suspension.
I decided to go for a 3” lift, mainly based on the reasoning I thought I had a saggy 2” lift in the car when I bought it (bottom 4 coils touching on the front), and it’s fairly heavy (or so I thought) with full length metal drawers (its a 2 door hardtop), bulbar, side bars etc etc. Turns out is 2.2 tonne with ¾ of a tank of fuel and not much camping gear. I was concerned that buying 2” coils, then putting my 110 on them might only give say 1” of lift, which isn’t worth worrying about IMO. Also, 3” can nearly be managed with castor bushes, and some new shocks that are a tad longer (good enough for the weekend car that it is)...

So, in go my Dobinson C51-198V and C51-199V coils... I’ll let the measurements speak for themselves (averaged from D/S and P/S measurements) :

Initial front bump stop clearance: 65mm
New front bump stop clearance: 190mm
Front gain of 125mm ( 5” )

Rear initial BSC: 105mm
New rear BSC: 220mm
Rear gain of 115mm (4.5” ish)

If hub to guard measurements are better: front is now 600mm, rear is now 620mm roughly.

Now, I find myself in the position of having to get 6 degree radius arms, cranked rear arms etc etc just to get it looking somewhere near pointing up the road with any sort of accuracy.
My standing on the bulbar (simulating a 90kg! Winch) only drops the front 10mm or so..... So I have trouble believing the car is ‘underweight’ by too much.

Has anyone else used these coils, and have they given similar results? Or an I driving the worlds lightest Defender?

[BigJon]

IMO you don't want cranked front arms or castor bushes. You want slotted swivels. If you do a site search you will find all the info.

[landiematt]

They will settle down after a month or two, but i would expect about an inch not the two inch's you want them to drop.They always say every mod requires 2 more mod's to get it done correctly.

[Wal Rat]

Have you checked with Dobinson to find out if what you think you bought is what you actually got?

[isuzurover]

What big jon said.

Also - it sounds like the vehicle is set up for touring? IME 0-2" lift is the best option for a tourer, as it will avoid all the extra mods. Any larger lift is unnecessary for the application. I would get in touch with Dobinsons or the supplier.

For serious offroading the smallest lift you need to fit the tyres you want is best. Some have managed to fit 37" wheels on a defender with zero lift.

Apart from mud boggers - have a look at serious offroaders. All those that win (and/or don't roll over readily) have minimal lift.

[Pat The Rat]

IMO you don't want cranked front arms or castor bushes. You want slotted swivels. If you do a site search you will find all the info.

Thanks BigJon, I have thought of going the slotted swivels (looks to be signifigantly cheaper as a bonus!), do people worry about the bottom spring mount not being level?

I guess another bonus of the slotted swivels is that I won't need to find a DC front prop, as I would expect that to be causing problems if I did get the diff somewhere near level....

[Pat The Rat]

Have you checked with Dobinson to find out if what you think you bought is what you actually got?

Thats getting done today, I'll let you all know so we can confirm those part numbers one way or another.

[Pat The Rat]

What big jon said.

Also - it sounds like the vehicle is set up for touring? IME 0-2" lift is the best option for a tourer, as it will avoid all the extra mods. Any larger lift is unnecessary for the application. I would get in touch with Dobinsons or the supplier.

For serious offroading the smallest lift you need to fit the tyres you want is best. Some have managed to fit 37" wheels on a defender with zero lift.

Apart from mud boggers - have a look at serious offroaders. All those that win (and/or don't roll over readily) have minimal lift.


Cheers, sound advice. I will be getting in touch with Dobinsons (to re-confirm they are the correct springs), and the supplier (to ask for somthing a little lower perhaps :angel: )
It is basically a tourer, however I am realistic about how much 'touring' vs 'weekend with the lads' (we all only have a limited amount of leave each year :( ) type driving i'll be doing, hence getting a bit greedy with the extra 1" or so.

[ugu80]

Over 50m (2") at the front will also require adjustable panhard rod to bring the wheels back into line.

[JC Rover]

I have a similar lift in my 110 with Dobinsons. It has the cranked arms front and rear, adjustable pan hard rod and the double cardan joint on the front prop shaft. It really needs a double cardan in the rear too, as it grumbles between acceleration and deceleration, over 80km/hr. Other than that it handles like a race car :cool:

[Symo]

Lifed my puma by 2 (and a bit) using lovells srings and shocks - double cardan universal joint - bump stop extensions and caster correction bushes. Drives like a dream and has eneough lift to put my 34 x 8 STT's under it comfortably.

Its a tourer so i dont want anything too extreeeeeme- especially given all the hum drum of late about registering a radically lifted car.

[Pat The Rat]

Lifed my puma by 2 (and a bit) using lovells srings and shocks - double cardan universal joint - bump stop extensions and caster correction bushes. Drives like a dream and has eneough lift to put my 34 x 8 STT's under it comfortably.

Its a tourer so i dont want anything too extreeeeeme- especially given all the hum drum of late about registering a radically lifted car.

Too true!! I am getting pretty frustrated with my original supplier's lack of response on this now. Dobinson's responded quickly wanting to know bump stop clearances but haven't heard from them since.... :confused:
From other posts in this thread i'm not sure if this much lift is in fact the correct amount for these coils?:(

Really I am just wanting to get these springs back and either use it for credit towards 2" coils, or preferably be refunded so I can just stick with 'plan A' which was to go and grab some 110 HD front coils, see how the rear looks, and buy some new shocks. Silly rush of blood thinking I could sneak and extra inch or so of lift had cost me a little bit, and cause more headaches then its worth! Lesson learned :)

[LowRanger]

I am interested in your measurements,and the spots you took them from,as they don't really add up.
I have a genuine 3" lift,and my measurements are quite different to what you have quoted.
I also went down a similar route with the same brand coils,and can say I wouldn't use them again.
I have different coils now,and the vehicle is transformed,and the coils haven't sagged like the previous coils did in a very short amount of time.

I use a Woods custom made front shaft with double cardan joint,and use the original flange,unlike when you use a Disco front shaft.

There is no need to use a double cardan joint on the rear shaft,but I did replace the unis with wide angle unis when I found my old shaft flogged out,when I was doing the build.
I run 35's and required minimal body modification to get them to clear,and the vehicle is very stable off road.My suggestion is to do your study into it properly,and to look at what effects any mod you do does.It can be a long process,and frustrating at times,but well worth it,when you get something that really works in the real world,despite what the paper nay sayers say.

[Pat The Rat]

Thanks Wayne.
I couldn't agree more on doing the research. Hence my queries regarding bump stop clearances so far above the 65 - 70mm that sems to be the consensus for a standard 110. I believe with the 130 front springs you get to around 100mm, which is already technically a raise, but for me to have nearly 4" on top of that again seemed pretty tall.
I could not agree more with the research comment, to be honest I would fall into the 'over researched' catagory if anything, which makes me being suprised about the final height even more alarming / embarassing :blush:
Thanks for saying you also used the coils, good to hear, although not good to hear you got rid of them :(
I have taken measurements toward the front of the bumpstop. I guess the best way to explain it is from near the front of the diff flat 'pad' area, vertically up to the point I met the bump stop rubber. The flat area on the diff is at a fairly impressive angle now, so no doubt measuring from the rear of the pad will take 10mm or so from my measurements....
When you say my measurements don't add up - does the comparison between say bump stop clearance and hub to guard measurements not add up (in comparison to what you found on your vehicle), or saying it seems a bit weird in general??
As I stated earlier, I was just going to sneak an extra inch in, when 2 inches seems so easy, to ensure a bit more clearance.

[digger]

Land Rover Monster Truck - YouTube

Too much lift (is there any such thing? ) Yes and No!

[lambrover]

Pat I measure from the rear of that axle pad up to the bump stop, as this will be the first part to touch. I know Wayne has changed out his dobinson coils and he doesn't like them any more. I have seen Wayne's car in the field and it behaves nicely. I do have dobinsons the ultra flexi coils 3 inch lift and I like them massive difference from standard. With this lift you will need to fit extended brake lines as well. To all of the guys running castor correction bushes, do your self a favour and change to either castor corrected arms or slotted swivel hubs this is much better for articulation.

[goingbush]

I'm one of those that don't believe you need to lift a Defender.

Having said that I would not say No to the portal 130 below, exept I'd need a ladder to get in.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Each to their own
and this bloke on the link below seems to have all the answers. Worth a look

Defender suspension lift/Upgrades - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=12063)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/1300.jpg

[Pat The Rat]

Pat I measure from the rear of that axle pad up to the bump stop, as this will be the first part to touch. I know Wayne has changed out his dobinson coils and he doesn't like them any more. I have seen Wayne's car in the field and it behaves nicely. I do have dobinsons the ultra flexi coils 3 inch lift and I like them massive difference from standard. With this lift you will need to fit extended brake lines as well. To all of the guys running castor correction bushes, do your self a favour and change to either castor corrected arms or slotted swivel hubs this is much better for articulation.

Thanks very much for the comments. I have to admit to being a tad jealous of both your Defenders... :)

Is my height taken as correct then? If so then I will admit I was wrong, and go back to something a bit more sedate. I was only looking to run a 10" stroke shock (lets not go down the path of what I need to do to mounts for different shock, lets just take it as read :angel: ), so thought a BSC of about 3" over factory would be fine. I realise castor is my drama, not shock stroke, but seriously - 2" lift (plus of minus any tolerance in what a "2 inch" lift is), fixed with castor bushes. 3" lift - fixed with 6 degree raduis arms, rear arms etc etc??

If I was wrong and do have that amount of lift due to poor research / unrealistic expectations then I'll have a quick feed of humble pie and move on. If not I'd like to get it sorted and get out and about again!!

P.S: Yep - got brake lines sorted (here is a tip - go an look at your old factory rubber hoses if you still have them everyone, mine were due for the bin anyway!) . Thanks.

[Pat The Rat]

I'm one of those that don't believe you need to lift a Defender.

Having said that I would not say No to the portal 130 below, exept I'd need a ladder to get in.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Each to their own
and this bloke on the link below seems to have all the answers. Worth a look

Defender suspension lift/Upgrades - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=12063)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/1300.jpg

Thanks for that link. Every time I see a pic of Equipe 4x4 gear I think its looks dead flash.
Interesting they mention dislocation cones - I have been quoted these as part of my $2.5K 'fit it pack' to get my car pointing up the road correctly again. I have an open measurement of 710mm for +5" Terrafirma shocks (hope i'm not incriminating my supplier before there is a chance to sort this out). Now, I can jack my 110 up until the shock mounts are this far apart, and they aren’t coming loose. Just adds to the frustration is all... Getting this stuff offered to me that I am supposed to blindly bolt in.... Mind you, given my track record with these coils :angel:

[LowRanger]

Thanks Wayne.
I couldn't agree more on doing the research. Hence my queries regarding bump stop clearances so far above the 65 - 70mm that sems to be the consensus for a standard 110. I believe with the 130 front springs you get to around 100mm, which is already technically a raise, but for me to have nearly 4" on top of that again seemed pretty tall.
I could not agree more with the research comment, to be honest I would fall into the 'over researched' catagory if anything, which makes me being suprised about the final height even more alarming / embarassing :blush:
Thanks for saying you also used the coils, good to hear, although not good to hear you got rid of them :(
I have taken measurements toward the front of the bumpstop. I guess the best way to explain it is from near the front of the diff flat 'pad' area, vertically up to the point I met the bump stop rubber. The flat area on the diff is at a fairly impressive angle now, so no doubt measuring from the rear of the pad will take 10mm or so from my measurements....
When you say my measurements don't add up - does the comparison between say bump stop clearance and hub to guard measurements not add up (in comparison to what you found on your vehicle), or saying it seems a bit weird in general??
As I stated earlier, I was just going to sneak an extra inch in, when 2 inches seems so easy, to ensure a bit more clearance.

I just went and checked the bumpstop and centre of hub to metal guard edge clearances and I have 130mm front bumpstop clearance,and while I have longer rear bumpstops,taking into account the extra length of the bumpstop,would give me approx 140mm bumpstop clearance on the rear.
And my hub to guard clearances are 600mm on the front and 620mm on the rear.And I run a genuine 3" lift,this is why I can't fathom the specs you listed for yours.

[Pat The Rat]

I just went and checked the bumpstop and centre of hub to metal guard edge clearances and I have 130mm front bumpstop clearance,and while I have longer rear bumpstops,taking into account the extra length of the bumpstop,would give me approx 140mm bumpstop clearance on the rear.
And my hub to guard clearances are 600mm on the front and 620mm on the rear.And I run a genuine 3" lift,this is why I can't fathom the specs you listed for yours.

Thanks again Wayne, I appreciate you taking the time to crawl under yours to check. I think I might not be following procedure here, and have measured from centre of hub to the bottom of the standard plastic flare (touching the tape on both). Apologies if this is not standard practice and has caused confusion. :(
Going off your bump stop clearances, I do seem a bit tall....... And you would be bang on for a 3" lift as you said.
The guy who got back to me so quickly at Dobinsons has been out of the office since Wednesday apparently, and the supplier will deal with me (by confirming if my clearances are normal) when they are good and ready it seems.
I will be sure to post on here the end result of all this for future reference.

[LowRanger]

Thanks again Wayne, I appreciate you taking the time to crawl under yours to check. I think I might not be following procedure here, and have measured from centre of hub to the bottom of the standard plastic flare (touching the tape on both). Apologies if this is not standard practice and has caused confusion. :(
Going off your bump stop clearances, I do seem a bit tall....... And you would be bang on for a 3" lift as you said.
The guy who got back to me so quickly at Dobinsons has been out of the office since Wednesday apparently, and the supplier will deal with me (by confirming if my clearances are normal) when they are good and ready it seems.
I will be sure to post on here the end result of all this for future reference.
Pat
The only reason to use the measurements to the bottom of the metal wheel arch and not the plastic flare,is to take out as much variance as possible caused by the plastic flares drooping over the years due to being knocked and leaned on etc.I can't give you measurements to the lip of the plastic flare,as I have different flares,mounted in different positions.
If your bumpstop clearances are correct,then in my opinion,it is way too high and will make the vehicle very unstable,particularly on sideslopes.
With the height I run,I have no problem clearing my 35's and am able to fully cycle my suspension,and the vehicle is very stable offroad

[100inch]

I'm one of those that don't believe you need to lift a Defender.


Having said that I would not say No to the portal 130 below, exept I'd need a ladder to get in.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Each to their own
and this bloke on the link below seems to have all the answers. Worth a look

Defender suspension lift/Upgrades - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum (http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=12063)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/05/1300.jpg
Seen the blue 90 at Billing show a couple of years ago. Just another badly liftet dead trap....IMO

[lambrover]

I have just checked my bump stop clearance. I have 150mm in the front, measured from the rear of the bump stop. 46542 46543.

I have included a side shot for you to compare heights. My tyre is a 285/75/16 or 33".

[lambrover]

Thanks for that link. Every time I see a pic of Equipe 4x4 gear I think its looks dead flash.
Interesting they mention dislocation cones - I have been quoted these as part of my $2.5K 'fit it pack' to get my car pointing up the road correctly again. I have an open measurement of 710mm for +5" Terrafirma shocks (hope i'm not incriminating my supplier before there is a chance to sort this out). Now, I can jack my 110 up until the shock mounts are this far apart, and they aren’t coming loose. Just adds to the frustration is all... Getting this stuff offered to me that I am supposed to blindly bolt in.... Mind you, given my track record with these coils :angel:

I have found photo's of a tape against the coils, my front free length is 500mm and the rears are 550mm. What are yours.

Are you saying that when you jack the vehicle up on one side inducing articulation, the shock reaches full travel and the coil is still seated.

I have found that with such a tall coil trying to get a coil to unseat in the drive way is very hard. You need a real world test as this pushes the oposite side up further then just jacking one side.

I have terrafirma +5 shocks front and rear with +2 towers on the front and the rear mounts to suit the +5 shocks. I believe you don't need the +2 front towers and will change them out for standard height one day.

I have slotted swivels for the castor. I would never use castor correction bushes. I do have 6 degree arms in the shed to fit later on, I want them as they are cranked at the chassis bush, I don't really need them but it will give me a little more flex over what I have now. If you go slotted swivels you can usually get away with wide angle uni's instead of a double cardon joint.

[LowRanger]

I have found photo's of a tape against the coils, my front free length is 500mm and the rears are 550mm. What are yours.

Are you saying that when you jack the vehicle up on one side inducing articulation, the shock reaches full travel and the coil is still seated.

I have found that with such a tall coil trying to get a coil to unseat in the drive way is very hard. You need a real world test as this pushes the oposite side up further then just jacking one side.

I have terrafirma +5 shocks front and rear with +2 towers on the front and the rear mounts to suit the +5 shocks. I believe you don't need the +2 front towers and will change them out for standard height one day.

I have slotted swivels for the castor. I would never use castor correction bushes. I do have 6 degree arms in the shed to fit later on, I want them as they are cranked at the chassis bush, I don't really need them but it will give me a little more flex over what I have now. If you go slotted swivels you can usually get away with wide angle uni's instead of a double cardon joint.

Mark
The only problem with going back to standard height front towers and running the "+5" shocks,is that you run the risk of the shocks topping out,unless you run extended bump stops.

[lambrover]

Mark
The only problem with going back to standard height front towers and running the "+5" shocks,is that you run the risk of the shocks topping out,unless you run extended bump stops.

yeah correct. I reckon it would be better because with taller coils your compressed length is obviously taller than standard coils so you won't hit the bump stops as you will bind before this. So making use of the wasted up travel, converting it into down travel makes sence.

I thought you ran standard height front towers/turrets ?

[LowRanger]

yeah correct. I reckon it would be better because with taller coils your compressed length is obviously taller than standard coils so you won't hit the bump stops as you will bind before this. So making use of the wasted up travel, converting it into down travel makes sence.

I thought you ran standard height front towers/turrets ?

Coil bind is one of the reasons I that I changed my coils.You want to be able to allow the suspension to maximise up travel,as down travel is limited by the suspension bushes.I have raised front towers,which allow my 35's to fully tuck into the guard cavity,maximising up travel without topping out the shocks.The secret is finding a shock,with a short enough closed length,and a long enough extended length,maximising the full movement available with the standard Land Rover front link setup.

[lambrover]

I would be surprised if at full compression you were on the bump stops.

I know mine do not, 46547

[uninformed]

im wondering if your front coils had been installed upside down? reason I say is because my 98 110 cam stock with varibale rate coils and the top 3 coils were bound up 4 years in...

with that much lift rotating the swivels is a must to return the castor....but your axle roll axis is going to be high oversteer front and rear meaning that bump steer will be high as will squirliness on uneven cambered roads.

[Pat The Rat]

Thanks guys. My coils have a free length of about 480mm front, and 540mm rear (quick measurements). So it sounds like it could well be the same items. Thanks Lambrover for the pics, I am measuring mine the same way, but from the front of the bump stop. I would think my BSC from your measuring point would still be closer to 180-185mm? I assume that is the rear you have attached a phtoto of, sorry the ruler is a bit blurry, but it looks like you have a pretty impressive BSC there as well....... I can try to replicate the lift (coils back out now) tomorrow.
Good point about unseating the coil, that isn’t something I had thought of. However, surely if the shock is at maximum extension and the coil stays put then thats that? The opposite wheel articulating could change the angle of the mounting plate on the diff a bit, but not actually vary the length the coil is at by very much surely?
Either way, I have taken them out now, and have a “long and low” 110 in the driveway again until I get this sorted out. :(
I have just added an album on here with some photos of the 110 with the coils in. Sorry but I’m not sure how to post them directly on here (searching that now).
My tyres are 7.50 x 16. The photo of the coils next to my old black one is of the rear coils. After a clean up, I found some orange and green dashes on them, so I would assume they are LRA orange/green 320 lb springs. Original free length of these is supposed to be 426mm but mine have sagged to about 400mm.
For anyone else with a Defender this height - std exhaust will hit on A frame (at ride height, let alone on droop). :(

I am really waiting to hear back from the seller and Dobinsons to see what their thoughts are. Good to hear that Lambrover’s coils were that same free length, but I must admit I was hoping mine were longer to start with (as in – wrong springs in the box or something). To me that says my car is either a fair bit lighter than yours, or the rate is quite different?
Bracing for a big feed of humble pie here, garnished with 'you've stuffed this up Pat' hence not naming names.... Fairly well decided that is this amount of lift IS 3" then its more than I was expecting / prepared to do properly at this stage anyway. Lesson learnt. :blush:

I must say its quite frustrating that getting answers from manufaturer and supplier is very "when I'm ready you'll get your answer", where as dealing with UK companies regarding arms etc has usually been an overnight response (but lets not go there) :angel:

Cheers for the input guys, its really a big help.

[Pat The Rat]

im wondering if your front coils had been installed upside down? reason I say is because my 98 110 cam stock with varibale rate coils and the top 3 coils were bound up 4 years in...

with that much lift rotating the swivels is a must to return the castor....but your axle roll axis is going to be high oversteer front and rear meaning that bump steer will be high as will squirliness on uneven cambered roads.

I had wondered this myself, I put the front coils in with the closer coils at the bottom (as this is where the close winds were on the old coils - and they had about 4 touching). But I am not sure it would reduce the height by much flipping them over?

Good info regarding roll axis. A question that came to me was that if I was to go with slotted swivels (I am walking away from this lift now - so its hypothetical), would I need to put a wedge or similar under the bottom mounting plate? As having an uneven base at normal ride height can’t be good for the coils or accuracy of height etc etc ?

[Pat The Rat]

I have slotted swivels for the castor. I would never use castor correction bushes. I do have 6 degree arms in the shed to fit later on, I want them as they are cranked at the chassis bush, I don't really need them but it will give me a little more flex over what I have now.

So you are usnig stock raduis arms and no castor bushes at the moment? What about rear arms? - interesting to hear that.......

[Pat The Rat]

Pic attached (he says with crossed fingers)
46548

[lambrover]

So you are usnig stock raduis arms and no castor bushes at the moment? What about rear arms? - interesting to hear that.......

Yeah mate I am using stock radius arms and standard bushes. I have cranked rear arms. Lowranger has really good rear arms, I think they are Gwyn Lewis ((spelling is most likely wrong).

[lambrover]

With regards to the angle of the bottom spring perch, don't touch them. As the axle travels up the axle rolls back and the perch angle flattens out, our spring won't fall out, mine are like now and so was my last car.

My coils were made for my old 110 county with the Isuzu engine and dual wheel carrier on the rear, long range tank and draw system, bullbar and winch. When you ordered your coils what did you say you had fitted, it sounds like you have some for a loaded vehicle so the spring rate is to high for your empty vehicle.

[Pat The Rat]

I did say it was fitted with drawers, and a LR factory bullbar (ARB style). I asked if they needed to know weights or for me to run the car over a weighbridge etc. I am sure I didn't give a weight, just a quick outline of the stuff bolted to it. I was amazed they could order springs based on this (they never saw the car), but I figured my 110 is hardly exceptional in any way - and they must know what they are doing :( certainly no Isuzu under the bonnet....

[Pat The Rat]

By the way: my Deefer is standard, with some big draws (full length and up to the tub depth), bullbar, tune side steps, rear bar (made from factory front bumper), rear wheel carrier and that's about it. Got diff locks and a few bits and bobs but nothing extra weight wise..

[LowRanger]

Pat
Not knowing exactly what you are trying to achieve with your setup,makes it a bit difficult to make too many recommendations.But if you are only going to run up to 33" tyres,then my serious recommendation is that you swap the springs you have for something that gives up to 2" lift. Using the springs you have is going to require a lot more mods and money to overcome.And it sounds like you are dealing with the same company I did,when I bought my original replacement springs,they don't like to give away any information,hence part of the reason I will never deal with them again.I went and had the corners of my vehicle weighed when in normal loaded mode,and bought the appropriate springs to match the weight



Sent from my Truck using Electrickery

[lambrover]

Wayne is right, what are you going to do with the car?

With regards to coils and who's to use, not sure. Wayne's current coil set up works really well and he has a little less body roll then I do.

Hay Wayne what brand are your coils.

[Benny_IIA]

im wondering if your front coils had been installed upside down? reason I say is because my 98 110 cam stock with varibale rate coils and the top 3 coils were bound up 4 years in...

with that much lift rotating the swivels is a must to return the castor....but your axle roll axis is going to be high oversteer front and rear meaning that bump steer will be high as will squirliness on uneven cambered roads.


Would it matter which way the coil was installed?

[Pat The Rat]

Cheers guys, the car is going to end up with a set of 35" weekend tyres at some stage, but not for a while. I recon daily rubber wil be 33" (or if I'm really tight the same as what is on there).
I will be aiming for the 2" coils of better yet some $ back and slot in LRA or the 130 front springs. I realise there is bugger all lift needed in a Defender for tyre or other reasons, I was just thinking that as it isn't really a daily driver, 3" would be OK.
I do use the car for some long trips, but they are few and far between, whereas a weekend out with my mate in his bloody 4" coil + 2 body lift J**p are more common...
As I said, I'll chalk this one up to experience (even though I am not admitting too much fault yet - other than being a goose for wanting an 'extra inch' of lift), and get some front coils initially to get its nose off the ground, and then see if the rear looks OK (and maybe just put a small spacer in it if I need 20mm or so to match whatever the front comes out at). I am happy with the (old) rear spring rate in there.
Aiming for a front BSC of 100mm or a smidge over now.....

[Pat The Rat]

Would it matter which way the coil was installed?

Wouldn't have thought so myself, although with the closer winds at the bottom, they were touching at the rear of the coil. Maybe having the wider winds at the base would allow the softer part of the coils to work a bit better?
Height wise - i'm going to say not much difference surely.

[lambrover]

Cheers guys, the car is going to end up with a set of 35" weekend tyres at some stage, but not for a while. I recon daily rubber wil be 33" (or if I'm really tight the same as what is on there).
I will be aiming for the 2" coils of better yet some $ back and slot in LRA or the 130 front springs. I realise there is bugger all lift needed in a Defender for tyre or other reasons, I was just thinking that as it isn't really a daily driver, 3" would be OK.
I do use the car for some long trips, but they are few and far between, whereas a weekend out with my mate in his bloody 4" coil + 2 body lift J**p are more common...
As I said, I'll chalk this one up to experience (even though I am not admitting too much fault yet - other than being a goose for wanting an 'extra inch' of lift), and get some front coils initially to get its nose off the ground, and then see if the rear looks OK (and maybe just put a small spacer in it if I need 20mm or so to match whatever the front comes out at). I am happy with the (old) rear spring rate in there.
Aiming for a front BSC of 100mm or a smidge over now.....


There is nothing wrong with running a three inch lift for a daily driver it's just that you need to do the other bits and pieces for it to work safely and properly.

The springs you have aren't a three inch lift, its more like 4-5 inch. So if you had plans to fit new radius arms or slotted swivels, just change out the coils and go ahead with the 3inch lift. Don't worry about what other vehicles are running in lift. A friend has a Patrol he has 2inch body lift 6inch spring lift and 35's, when I park next to it my sills, chassis line up and I only had 2inch lift and 33's. Other cars need all the lift to get there bellys of the ground.

I don't think this is your fault, it's just that the springs you were given are to heavy a rate for your vehicle, Wayens coils and mine are taller then yours in free lenght but our cars sit lower then yours, this indicates the rate is to heavy.

I would recommend fitting some new rims, 16x8 with a neg 25 offset to increase your wheel track, this improves stability.

[Foxspell]

I fitted some variable coils to the rear of my D1 recently, the instructions said to put the closer winds to the top as they are meant to bind, I don't think it would be desirable for them to bind at the bottom.
Cheers,
Lee

[Slunnie]

I fitted some variable coils to the rear of my D1 recently, the instructions said to put the closer winds to the top as they are meant to bind, I don't think it would be desirable for them to bind at the bottom.
Cheers,
Lee
Where they bind isn't so much of a problem... I guess apart from wear on the chassis at the front of Rovers, but when the closer winds are at the bottom they trap debris.

[Pat The Rat]

Thanks guys - seems close winds at the top is the go then.
I still doubt it will effect height too much overall, but do appriciate its better to have the close winds up against a nice level mounting bracket on the chassis then the varying axle housing (and prevent them collecting crap too).

[Pat The Rat]

There is nothing wrong with running a three inch lift for a daily driver it's just that you need to do the other bits and pieces for it to work safely and properly.

The springs you have aren't a three inch lift, its more like 4-5 inch. So if you had plans to fit new radius arms or slotted swivels, just change out the coils and go ahead with the 3inch lift. Don't worry about what other vehicles are running in lift. A friend has a Patrol he has 2inch body lift 6inch spring lift and 35's, when I park next to it my sills, chassis line up and I only had 2inch lift and 33's. Other cars need all the lift to get there bellys of the ground.

I don't think this is your fault, it's just that the springs you were given are to heavy a rate for your vehicle, Wayens coils and mine are taller then yours in free lenght but our cars sit lower then yours, this indicates the rate is to heavy.

I would recommend fitting some new rims, 16x8 with a neg 25 offset to increase your wheel track, this improves stability.

Thanks mate, I'll be doing going along roughly these lines. Depending on what the supplier offers me (store credit or $ back).
If I get store credit I'll probably roll the money over onto 2" coils, a new rear wheel carrier (random I know) or more likely +2 Terrafirm shocks, which look like good value.
Between you, me and the other few hundred reading the thread ;) I'll be hoping for $ back, to get some front coils (either 130 fronts or LRA in same rate but a bit higher, and looking to get a bit better quality shock (had an amazing run out of Bilstein in the past - but I'd like the 10" travel LRA ones - again, waiting & waiting on Heasmans for an price).

I'll just trim the rear up to suit where my front finishes and call it done for now. I'm looking to do a few larger trips this year (hence enbarking on this whole shamozzle), so I am just keen to be back on the road.

[LowRanger]

Cheers guys, the car is going to end up with a set of 35" weekend tyres at some stage, but not for a while. I recon daily rubber wil be 33" (or if I'm really tight the same as what is on there).
I will be aiming for the 2" coils of better yet some $ back and slot in LRA or the 130 front springs. I realise there is bugger all lift needed in a Defender for tyre or other reasons, I was just thinking that as it isn't really a daily driver, 3" would be OK.
I do use the car for some long trips, but they are few and far between, whereas a weekend out with my mate in his bloody 4" coil + 2 body lift J**p are more common...
As I said, I'll chalk this one up to experience (even though I am not admitting too much fault yet - other than being a goose for wanting an 'extra inch' of lift), and get some front coils initially to get its nose off the ground, and then see if the rear looks OK (and maybe just put a small spacer in it if I need 20mm or so to match whatever the front comes out at). I am happy with the (old) rear spring rate in there.
Aiming for a front BSC of 100mm or a smidge over now.....

Pat
From your description,it sounds like you are trying to set up your vehicle for similar use to mine,except that I don't run anything except for my 35's,as it is my weekend only vehicle.Having said that,I took a very long time looking at what works in the real world,and what was basically advertising hype.Working in the industry for over 30 years; helped to separate fact from fiction a lot of the time though.
There is nothing wrong with running 3" lift on a Defender,despite what the purists will say.BUT you need to be prepared to do it properly,or you can end up with a very unstable mess:eek:
You don't need huge lifts to compete with j##%s off road or any of the J#p vehicles for that matter.
It is all about spring selection,shocks selection and mounting.
You mention that your springs are "progressive wound" ie have tighter coils at one end.What you haven't mentioned is whether the coils are tapered wire coils ie the wire at the closer wound coils is smaller diameter than the other coils.
If the coils are all the same diameter,then the coils are NOT true progressive springs,but rather what is known as ramp progressive.These coils can be mounted either way up,depending on where you want the most amount of resistance?
A tapered wire coil ie. where the tail of the coil is a smaller diameter,will require the thinner coils to be mounted to the top.This type of coil is what is known as a "Progressive" wound coil.
I run a set of "Progressive" coils in the rear of my vehicle,and a set of "Linear" rate springs in the front,which allow the vehicle to keep full articulation and they add stability to the front when compared to the "ramp progressives" that I ran previously.
The other thing,is that the later the year model the more likely you are to require a double cardan front shaft and at least wide angle uni's in the rear shaft.
I know that at the height that mine is now,that I need both and mine is a 93 200Tdi.
If you run 35's and wish to have"full" articulation,then they will just touch the body at the rear wheel arches,depending on wheel offset and variabilitiy in actual tyre size.There are people out there that say they don't rub,but that is usually due to the fact that they have limited the available UP travel due to fitting "Lower" rear upper shock mounts.
There are lots of different ways to set the vehicle up with regards to brands etc.but a lot of what I have seen leads to very unstable vehicles,particularly in Offroad situations.I wanted something that was as stable as I could make it and allowed me to run the gear that I wanted.
The end result for me has been something that I am very happy with,is inherently very stable in the roughest country,and even though it is an old truck,has proven to be very reliable.
Do the homework,and resist impulse purchases based on what a salesman tells you,is my advice;)

[Pat The Rat]

Wayne,
Thanks for another legendary-ily (new word?) helpful post.
In answer to your queries:
Coils are same diameter. They just have the closer windings at one end.
Mine is a 1994 300 TDI – so I’d be in a worse boat than you regarding driveshafts. :eek:
I agree with you 100% on unstable vehicles, I have seen plenty of the Niss-ota brigade driving around with their arse permanently clenched in a 6” lifted truck, which always seems to want to fall over... Stuff that for a joke.
I recon your 110 looks the bee’s knees, and I do appreciate (even more over the last few days) the work and research you have put into it. I can see that 3” is not a record breaking lift for a 110, but getting a lift that height that works is well worth mentioning.
My 110 either sits in the drive (99% of the time it seems :( ), goes for a boys weekend (ewww - I’ll say ‘camping and 4WD weekend’ in future), or drives for 6-7 hours in any given direction to visit someone. It does not get used every day, but it does get used on longer trips – so having something good on road is still important to me.

I realise now that my initial thought of getting a ‘really soft’ 3” lift (expecting 2 and a bit inches – as opposed to asking for 2” and getting 1” or 3” rock hard) was very silly – I should have been more clear with what I wanted.. In a way getting the wrong coils sold to me (yes – I am saying that now :angel: ) has been a good and timely eye-opener.
I have air lockers - and with them, nearly std height suspension, the worlds skinniest tyres and 8” travel shocks I haven’t really missed out on anything. So I figure my money is better spent on a setup that can cycle through, say, a 10” shock (common size), and gives me clearance for some larger tyres down the track. This means a lower ride height, picking some better lines, but still being able to articulate the wheels enough to get some good stability. The lower height (say 2” or 2.5” above std) will mean I can save the radius /rear arm and bushes $$ for other bits and bobs (and my upcoming trip north) later on.
I know this had been the ‘traditional’ line of thought forever – I’m slow OK!

I notice Rick130 has a front BSC of about 120mm (down a bit on that now), and seems to think this is a good compromise. I have just jacked my front up to this height, and it sits level, looks good, and will work fine I believe. This is about 2.3” above factory. If I can get my front clearance to this, or even100mm, I will be happy. Researching the coils that will do this for me now (LRA purple I think?)
Just sweating on British Offroad ‘s (yes I will say it now :angel: ) response, to see what my options are.

[Pat The Rat]

Actually I think 130 front springs or LRA purple yellow in the front... ahh we arn't out of the woods yet :D

[lambrover]

Wayne,
Thanks for another legendary-ily (new word?) helpful post.
In answer to your queries:
Coils are same diameter. They just have the closer windings at one end.
Mine is a 1994 300 TDI – so I’d be in a worse boat than you regarding driveshafts. :eek:
I agree with you 100% on unstable vehicles, I have seen plenty of the Niss-ota brigade driving around with their arse permanently clenched in a 6” lifted truck, which always seems to want to fall over... Stuff that for a joke.
I recon your 110 looks the bee’s knees, and I do appreciate (even more over the last few days) the work and research you have put into it. I can see that 3” is not a record breaking lift for a 110, but getting a lift that height that works is well worth mentioning.
My 110 either sits in the drive (99% of the time it seems :( ), goes for a boys weekend (ewww - I’ll say ‘camping and 4WD weekend’ in future), or drives for 6-7 hours in any given direction to visit someone. It does not get used every day, but it does get used on longer trips – so having something good on road is still important to me.

I realise now that my initial thought of getting a ‘really soft’ 3” lift (expecting 2 and a bit inches – as opposed to asking for 2” and getting 1” or 3” rock hard) was very silly – I should have been more clear with what I wanted.. In a way getting the wrong coils sold to me (yes – I am saying that now :angel: ) has been a good and timely eye-opener.
I have air lockers - and with them, nearly std height suspension, the worlds skinniest tyres and 8” travel shocks I haven’t really missed out on anything. So I figure my money is better spent on a setup that can cycle through, say, a 10” shock (common size), and gives me clearance for some larger tyres down the track. This means a lower ride height, picking some better lines, but still being able to articulate the wheels enough to get some good stability. The lower height (say 2” or 2.5” above std) will mean I can save the radius /rear arm and bushes $$ for other bits and bobs (and my upcoming trip north) later on.
I know this had been the ‘traditional’ line of thought forever – I’m slow OK!

I notice Rick130 has a front BSC of about 120mm (down a bit on that now), and seems to think this is a good compromise. I have just jacked my front up to this height, and it sits level, looks good, and will work fine I believe. This is about 2.3” above factory. If I can get my front clearance to this, or even100mm, I will be happy. Researching the coils that will do this for me now (LRA purple I think?)
Just sweating on British Offroad ‘s (yes I will say it now :angel: ) response, to see what my options are.

I know you are moving away from this now but remember using a soft 3 inch lift would be bad news, it would be unstable. Shock length if you want long travel, Wayne and I run 11inch, Wayne runs OME Sports I think and I run Terrafirma +5.

I have a friend in QLD he runs standard height with -2 mounts and it is very good, and can get away with just retaining your coils. With the 11 inch shocks you would want to have relocation cones.

I am surprised British offroad would supply the wrong coil but they are made by Dobinson from memory. My coils are Dobinson but were custom made for my 110county and taper ground progressive rate (progressive like Wayne's).

Well it sounds like you have now formulated a plan any way. Good luck

[Pat The Rat]

I know you are moving away from this now but remember using a soft 3 inch lift would be bad news, it would be unstable. Shock length if you want long travel, Wayne and I run 11inch, Wayne runs OME Sports I think and I run Terrafirma +5.

I have a friend in QLD he runs standard height with -2 mounts and it is very good, and can get away with just retaining your coils. With the 11 inch shocks you would want to have relocation cones.

I am surprised British offroad would supply the wrong coil but they are made by Dobinson from memory. My coils are Dobinson but were custom made for my 110county and taper ground progressive rate (progressive like Wayne's).

Well it sounds like you have now formulated a plan any way. Good luck

Yes - I think I have a better idea about how to move forward now (bit of extra flex and not so much height) thanks largely to both you guys. I gotta say getting these 'too tall' coils confused the absolute s**t out of me, it was great to hear both your experiences to have something to work off.
I will be sure to finish this thread off with what I end up with, and how it goes.
Cheers guys.

[LowRanger]

Wayne,
Thanks for another legendary-ily (new word?) helpful post.
In answer to your queries:
Coils are same diameter. They just have the closer windings at one end.
Mine is a 1994 300 TDI – so I’d be in a worse boat than you regarding driveshafts. :eek:
I agree with you 100% on unstable vehicles, I have seen plenty of the Niss-ota brigade driving around with their arse permanently clenched in a 6” lifted truck, which always seems to want to fall over... Stuff that for a joke.
I recon your 110 looks the bee’s knees, and I do appreciate (even more over the last few days) the work and research you have put into it. I can see that 3” is not a record breaking lift for a 110, but getting a lift that height that works is well worth mentioning.
My 110 either sits in the drive (99% of the time it seems :( ), goes for a boys weekend (ewww - I’ll say ‘camping and 4WD weekend’ in future), or drives for 6-7 hours in any given direction to visit someone. It does not get used every day, but it does get used on longer trips – so having something good on road is still important to me.

I realise now that my initial thought of getting a ‘really soft’ 3” lift (expecting 2 and a bit inches – as opposed to asking for 2” and getting 1” or 3” rock hard) was very silly – I should have been more clear with what I wanted.. In a way getting the wrong coils sold to me (yes – I am saying that now :angel: ) has been a good and timely eye-opener.
I have air lockers - and with them, nearly std height suspension, the worlds skinniest tyres and 8” travel shocks I haven’t really missed out on anything. So I figure my money is better spent on a setup that can cycle through, say, a 10” shock (common size), and gives me clearance for some larger tyres down the track. This means a lower ride height, picking some better lines, but still being able to articulate the wheels enough to get some good stability. The lower height (say 2” or 2.5” above std) will mean I can save the radius /rear arm and bushes $$ for other bits and bobs (and my upcoming trip north) later on.
I know this had been the ‘traditional’ line of thought forever – I’m slow OK!

I notice Rick130 has a front BSC of about 120mm (down a bit on that now), and seems to think this is a good compromise. I have just jacked my front up to this height, and it sits level, looks good, and will work fine I believe. This is about 2.3” above factory. If I can get my front clearance to this, or even100mm, I will be happy. Researching the coils that will do this for me now (LRA purple I think?)
Just sweating on British Offroad ‘s (yes I will say it now :angel: ) response, to see what my options are.

Pat
It sounds like you are working out a plan of attack,which is good.
Bump stop clearance is very subjective,and depends on where it is measured from.Everyone seems to measure from a different point,so be careful when doing comparisons.
My one big suggestion would be to take the truck,packed with what you would normally take on a day/weekend away,and get it weighed at both ends,preferably at all 4 corners.This will give you a starting point for the springs that are required.When you have the springs,then you can fit them,and cycle the suspension through its full travel with the shocks disconnected.You can then measure the required open and closed lengths required for the shocks,relative to whatever shock mounts you want to run.This way you can avoid another pitfall of many ie Topping and bottoming out of shock absorbers.
I think you are on the right track,looking at 2"-2.5" genuine lift,this will give you the required clearance needed if you want to run 35's in the future,and keeping the lift down,may enable you to avoid having to slot your front swivels.
But regardless of the lift,I suggest that you either strengthen or replace the standard rear arms,as they are spaghetti,and will let you down eventually,and usually in a very inopportune place.
One last thing is,that the place you purchased your springs from,is different to where I got my initial set from.
Good luck with the rest of the build up,and keep us informed how you go,I always like to see how other peoples plans work out:eek:
Any further questions,don't hesitate to ask.

[Pat The Rat]

Good on you Wayne, thanks again mate. I will definitely be following your advice, and general steps outlined in your last post.
Now its all up to getting British Offroad to take these coils back, and if I get store credit / told I can only exchange them for other coils / told they are my problem now then that will determine how I move forward. I feel a lot more confident to push for certain items now, rather than just calling again and saying “ummm they aren’t right” ...:(
I agree with you on bump stop measurements. I can focus more on coil lengths (free length and how they sit in the 110). Again hard to measure accurately across a range of vehicles , but as long as I am consistent on my car I should be right.
I have the advantage of knowing what the rear springs are (would like to just keep them if I can – but see what Brit Offroad say), so I can work out a weight based on their heights. I also had it over a weighbridge a while ago in front/rear halves, which I have written down, but from memory it was nearly 50/50 distribution :cool: and about 2.4 tonne all up. It wasn’t quite loaded up though, so that figure could do with an update..
But I definitely have a clearer view of what I want as an end result, and what I really need, thanks to you guys. Absolutely awesome to have this help at hand. :BigThumb:
I’ll be sure to keep you posted.
Cheers