Coolant Probs

[tcgooge]

Hi there everybody!
Have had intermittent problems with the coolant on my D2a (TD5 auto).
Randomly overheats, always managed to pull over before to far gone, just enough to set the warning light off.
Have replaced the expansion tank cap - no change.
Thermostat - no change.
Found a small leak in the heater feed pipe, replaced - no change. Not sure if this was a result of playing under the bonnet and creating the leak by bad pipe positioning.
Replaced the radiator ( the old one was partially blocked and warped).
Now when running and the system bled, there is still air coming from the bleed nut on the top pipe. Haven't driven anywhere yet.
Have had the coolant system pressure tested and all was ok.
Have good return flow to the expansion tank.
Bought the car about a year ago and drove from Melbourne to home on the Gold Coast, and then no problems since until about a month ago.
No oil in the coolant, no coolant in the oil. No evidence on the block of any coolant leaks.
Does this mean there is a leak in the head gasket?
How do I test the head without taking it off?
Have I simply missed something in the bleeding process?

[Marmoset]

Have you done anything with the water pump yet? Might be worth checking what state it is in - have a look under the cast bracket that holds the aircon/power steering/water pump to see if there's any sign of a leak through the weep hole.

[trevor]

Ditto on the water pump. Before I did mine it got so hot under the hood, never had the warning light though. Check my Profile for a thread titled rapid coolant loss. It has pictures of the weep hole and a write upTo replace.

[MAD MAT]

had similar problem with mine . only used a cup every few months around town . flog it on a long trip towing and it would start to get hot after 5 or so hours due to a slow leak. when i put the bright pink nulon coolant the leaks showed pretty soon after . a few small drips around some fittings but i was losing most from weeping head gaskets . . i still havent changrd them yet . ran water only for a month with silver seal in it . crossed my fingers and re filled with nulon . has not leaked anymore since . but i will not be confident till i get the new head gaskets on. maybe your gasket is leaking from water passage into cylinder and going out tail pipe as steam . wont really show up in oil if its only a tiny amount . pull all your plugs and see if one is nice and clean compared to others . good luck with it all the best mat

[Frontier1]

Hi Guys,

I am getting something like this but more extreme.

As soon as I start the engine (which is now suddenly very hard to start), I get massive amounts of air pressure coming back through the water reservoir tank and through the pressure cap!

Is this a blown head gasket thereby pushing the cylinder pressure out through the water jacket and back through the water lines back to the reservoir?

I hesitate to ask but what am I looking at to get a replacement head gasket done on my 2001 Series 2 TD5 (assuming it hasn't warped the head?)

Cheers, Pete'

[It'sNotWorthComplaining!]

Hi there everybody!

Have I simply missed something in the bleeding process?

did you have the heater on full and disconnected the coolant tank by lifting it up off it's clips and then holding it up higher than any coolant spot on the vehicle when you were filling and had the bleeder hole on the top hose open

[trevor]

So after I fixed my water pump it seems like my coolant just doesn't wanna stay in there. It now leaks from the breather hose and because my driveway has a small incline it leaks overnight :(. Can anyone tell me why this is happening? I can only stop it if I keep it at about 1/4 full in the reservoir away from the breather tube. Sometimes I've just wanted to cut and shorten the thing in the tank but thought better of it. I know there is a mark on the tank saying cold level but if I fill of to that lip/protrusion it just leaks out again. It seems like there is too much pressure building up in the system or something but I don't know, I though it needs to be a bit pressurized? Coolant issues have been my most recurrent problem with my d2 :( but I guess it could be worse.

[dinosaur]

Don't know if it helps or not, but a bit of blue cellophane on the end of a torch, at night, illuminates the red coolant llike the dogs 'proverbials'. Really handy for spotting coolant leaks.

[Dustkicker]

So after I fixed my water pump it seems like my coolant just doesn't wanna stay in there. It now leaks from the breather hose and because my driveway has a small incline it leaks overnight :(. Can anyone tell me why this is happening? I can only stop it if I keep it at about 1/4 full in the reservoir away from the breather tube. Sometimes I've just wanted to cut and shorten the thing in the tank but thought better of it. I know there is a mark on the tank saying cold level but if I fill of to that lip/protrusion it just leaks out again. It seems like there is too much pressure building up in the system or something but I don't know, I though it needs to be a bit pressurized? Coolant issues have been my most recurrent problem with my d2 :( but I guess it could be worse.

I had the same problem it turned out to be a leak in the oil cooler. Mine was caused by previous owners only putting in water not coolant . Hope it helps. It drove me crazy for months.

[trevor]

Have to ask... Where's the oil cooler... :p. is it at the front of the engine near the fan as I've had a coolant leak from there before as the connection got really brittle and just gave way. My ONLY leak is from the reservoir breather tube that sits in the coolant tank and then hangs about over where the vaccuum pump thing is (I think that's what it is, I had to remove 2 plugs when I removed the EGR and had to tap it with a small screw). I see red all around it and when Im working underneath red coolant drips down onto the front diff and axle and gets me so annoyed. I just don't think I'm the only one who's had this issue as it seems relatively simple (yet complicated), water is beig pushed out of the breather tube (but why). If I let it drain it all I get to a 1/4 of a tank and there is no way that can be right, right? Any suggestions? If the oil cooler is not what I think it is I will have a look again but seems like my only loss now is from the tank itself in a way. Quite annoyed to say the least.

[goingbush]

the oil cooler is under the turbo heat shield,
check this post

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/145294-check-your-td5-turbo-heat-shield.html#post1637857

[Dustkicker]

Have to ask... Where's the oil cooler... :p. is it at the front of the engine near the fan as I've had a coolant leak from there before as the connection got really brittle and just gave way. My ONLY leak is from the reservoir breather tube that sits in the coolant tank. I just don't think I'm the only one who's had this issue as it seems relatively simple (yet complicated), water is beig pushed out of the breather tube (but why).

The leak in the oil cooler causes more pressure in the system which is why it is coming out your breather (over flow)pipe.
I had this problem for nearly a year changed water pump/hoses/had rad flushed twice/replaced dowels and head gasket no joy. Topped up tank every week was frustrated but engine ran ok. it got worse all of a sudden topped up every day. Then by accident my dad back in Ireland was talking to a work mate that had the same problem he replace most of the engine before he found the cure. I put in new oil cooler two years ago and coolant job done and didn't looked back.

If I let it drain it all I get to a 1/4 of a tank and there is no way that can be right, right? Any suggestions? If the oil cooler is not what I think it is I will have a look again but seems like my only loss now is from the tank itself in a way. Quite annoyed to say the least.

Hope this helps sorry I not that mechanical minded but I'm sure someone that is can understand and get technical:D.

[djam1]

When a TD5 starts randomly overheating or loosing coolant due to pressurizing the system ask the following questions.

Has it had a head gasket during the course of its life?
Was it manufactured between 1999 up to about 2005?
If the answer is no and yes and you have done 170000 Km or more it may be head gasket time.

TD5 head gaskets are a shim type and are usually driven into the workshop they are repaired at, not that many are trucked in its not often they fail catastrophically.

If the correct coolant has been used through the course of its life its not an enormously expensive provided it hasn't been overheated.
If its had normal glycol coolant in it, you may be up for a head and oil cooler.
Don't ask me how I know

I am sure there are exceptions to what I have said but speaking to people who work on them all day everyday will usually concur with what I have said.

[trevor]

When a TD5 starts randomly overheating or loosing coolant due to pressurizing the system ask the following questions.

Has it had a head gasket during the course of its life?
Was it manufactured between 1999 up to about 2005?
If the answer is no and yes and you have done 170000 Km or more it may be head gasket time.

TD5 head gaskets are a shim type and are usually driven into the workshop they are repaired at not that many are trucked in its not often they fail catastrophically.

If the correct coolant has been used through the course of its life its not an enormously expensive provided it hasn't been overheated.
If its had normal glycol coolant in it, you may be up for a head and oil cooler.
Don't ask me how I know

I am sure there are exceptions to what I have said but speaking to people who work on them all day everyday will usually concur with what I have said.

Thanks everyone, been really helpful as usual. I am actually leaning on the leak in the oil cooler pipe for 2 reasons. 1) I have a leak down that side of the engine that I attributed to not having a gasket on my turbo to sump drain pipe, I fitted that and I believed there was a decrease in oil. 2) when my turbo was replaced by a mechanic friend the heat shield was pop riveted back on and has eventually come loose. At the time I thought nothing of it as I was a disco newb. I believe I lose to much oil for it to be anything except oil cooler related (I hope).
In answer to the questions above; no and yes (2002). It has had the LR stuff and in 2010 I ran the equivalent green when a brittle hose saw me lose all coolant. When replaced waterpump 4months ago I uses the red Nulon long life stuff used by many here. I am dying to check the oil cooler pipe but not possible at the moment. Probably tomorrow arvo or Monday morning. I will try to take pictures but I don't have the patience that everyone else does and I really just like to get in there and get it done (a very big thank you though to those who do have that patience).
When changing oil regularly at 10k strict intervals there was never a milkshake of oil and coolant/water (thank god), and despite long standing coolant issues the temp gauge hasn't budged above half way, engine running hotter than normal but not overheating as I don't do very long drives often.
Thank you everyone again and I will keep you posted.

[tcgooge]

Thanks to everyones insightful replies.
I am going to have a look at the oil cooler this morning, didn't realise that there was a coolant flow there. Had been using the old RAVE (with mostly V8 references) and making up the rest from guess work. I now have the 2003 RAVE with the TD5 component and will make a more valiant effort in tracking this little dilemma down.
To answer some of the questions posted:
Original gasket (according to log book).
2003 model.
Bled the system with the heater on and raised the expansion tank to ensure full expulsion of air.
Always run on the red stuff (as far as I know).
Water pump checked out OK.
Car is at 240K.
Still has lots of power.
Have driven, since last post, 70km with no problem, then the same 70km the next day and found a 600ml of coolant in catch bottle (fixed under the overflow pipe) and around the coolant expansion cap.
When the car is left overnight, the coolant system is still under pressure in the morning, even when it has been 3degC!

[Blknight.aus]

start with the hidden heater hose no-one knows about... (its under #4 exhaust, you can see it easily with the heat shield off)

The heater is full flow all the time, so turning it on only provides heat to the cab which you use as an indication that the cooling system is primed and operating correctly (the heater core is the first place air gathers, if you have enough air in the system and you hold the flex pipes and pinch them closed you'll feel the air "rushing" through)

Check the thermostat, actually just replace it, if you test it later and it works properly then you have a spare.

The cooling system staying pressureised after cool down means somethings being added to the system. Heres an experiment.

Get a large balloon put about 100ml of water in it, tie a knot in it and put it in a large pot of boiling water. as the water in the balloon boils the balloon inflates. take the heat away and the balloon will deflate. back to its orignal size.

What would happen if when filled with steam air was added?

to do that test you need a ball with an inflation nozzle receptacle. insert a hundred mil or so of water boil the ball till it starts to inflate then inflate it the rest of the way with an air pump.


sorry mate but everything is pointing towards a dying head gasket.

[trevor]

Sad face :(... I will have a look at all the things mentioned and hope its one of them before concluding its a head gasket. If it is any suggestions where to get it done in the western suburbs in Victoria? Also prices to get an idea? I'll tart small and (hopefully not) work my way up to the HG. also are there any sure signs that I could look for to indicate it could be the HG? Thanks all.

[Pierre]

Off you go to Romsey Land Rover, Trev.

Pete

[trevor]

Hi all, I did post a few pics in another thread and dont mean to spam but here is the link to some pics of my exhaust manifold and oil cooler pipe which seems dry. http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/108913-coolant-leak.html there is red dried coolant on the exhaust and some warpage near this dried coolant, and a missing nut on a manifold bolt closest to the cab. Not sure if related but may be worth checking out. Thanks again all

[tcgooge]

Have now checked everything, the oil cooler looks fine, dry and clean. The hoses look in good shape and the riser that connects to the oil cooler hose, slightly rubbed by the heat shield, but by no means worn through.
As Trev has posted in the other post, my exhaust manifold gasket is also warped, and at a bout the same position. In fact there is the missing nut as well.
If the cooler is clean and dry should one assume that the cooler is OK? Is there another test to do?
Looks like I'm heading towards anew head gasket....

[trevor]

Bob10 suggested in the other thread "May I suggest remove the small hose from the oil cooler, and inspect the spigot on the cooler the hose fits on. Quite often after time this spigot can develop pin holes. Also, squeeze the hose, it looks a bit " bulgy" to me, is it soft? If you remove the hose, to make it easier, there is a 10 mm bolt holding the steel pipe onto the back of the engine, remove it to give you some " give". Bob"


I will be doing this tomorrow but not sure what the bulge means. Maybe a block? I'll be interested to see what it looks like in there. If its blocked doesn't anyone know if this blockage is consistent with our current problems?

[Fluids]

No bulge (me thinks) ... the hose is a different dia' at each end ... supposed to be like that.

[bell1975]

Do I win bonus points for providing a photo showing two coolant leaks in the one picture...

I'm having the oil cooler replaced in a couple of weeks as it has fairly significant corrosion at the spigot (rear of vehicle) end. I'm guessing this was contributed to by the previous owner neglecting to run the vehicle with a decent ratio of coolant to water. When I drained and flushed the system about 10000kms ago the water ran out a distinctly "clear" colour.

Putting in the red Nulon stuff really makes it easy to spot the leaks.

In my case the weep from the front end of the short hose we're referring to here is due to the fact that the outer surface that the hose is mating to/being clamped onto is no longer smooth and uniformly round. Rather it is pitted, corroding and bumpy. I tried to take some of the worst lumps out of it by running a loop of old bicycle chain around it back and forth (like a rasp). It was never going to fix it, just create a smoother surface for the hose to be pushed back onto.

The other weep is from the threaded plug between exhaust manifold ports 3 and 4 (also referred to as a water jacket plug?).

To reseal this one requires the manifold to come unless you get creative with a Dremel and "deweb" the manifold at that point.

Once these two leaks are sorted I'll do the o-rings in the fuel cooler on the other side.

One can't rush these things...

[Marmoset]

I replaced that short hose on mine a few weeks back, and like all the other faces on hose joints on mine, t was slightly lumpy :mad: With it being a bit tight in there I tried the old bike chain technique, wrap it around the spigot and pull back and forth - it worked like a charm.....

I didn't see m cooler leaking like hat but I'm still getting air drawn into my coolant when it's cooling down, so I'm still chasing the dream of a fully sealed coolant system!

Rich

[bell1975]

I replaced that short hose on mine a few weeks back, and like all the other faces on hose joints on mine, t was slightly lumpy :mad: With it being a bit tight in there I tried the old bike chain technique, wrap it around the spigot and pull back and forth - it worked like a charm.....

I didn't see m cooler leaking like hat but I'm still getting air drawn into my coolant when it's cooling down, so I'm still chasing the dream of a fully sealed coolant system!

Rich

Man's gotta have a dream!

I too would like to know where the air is entering the cooling system. Once the engine has cooled down (even the following day) there is a hiss when I remove the expansion tank cap. One LR mechanic (by all reports very reliable) told me that this was normal.

Can anyone reference a post or thread where this pressurisation is explained please?

[northiam]

The hiss you hear when opening the coolant cap when cold is breaking the vacuum, all good and normal.

[bob10]

Bob10 suggested in the other thread "May I suggest remove the small hose from the oil cooler, and inspect the spigot on the cooler the hose fits on. Quite often after time this spigot can develop pin holes. Also, squeeze the hose, it looks a bit " bulgy" to me, is it soft? If you remove the hose, to make it easier, there is a 10 mm bolt holding the steel pipe onto the back of the engine, remove it to give you some " give". Bob"


I will be doing this tomorrow but not sure what the bulge means. Maybe a block? I'll be interested to see what it looks like in there. If its blocked doesn't anyone know if this blockage is consistent with our current problems?
G'day, Trevor, the bulge I mentioned occurs when the small hose, which is out of sight, out of mind, becomes affected by the heat in that area over a period of time, and becomes soft, mine ,after a long run was bulging like a balloon. It was just lucky I spotted it in time. The hose is a step down from the cooler spigot dia. to the pipe dia., but the bulge pushes it out of shape. cheers, Bob

[trevor]

Thanks Bob. I tried to remove the rubber bit to have a look inside but couldn't get enough grip in the nut behind to be able to move and remove the rubber. It wasn't too bulgy as it looks in the pic to be honest, it's actually quite hard not soft but I will be keeping an eye on it. I've actually started working from least expensive in sorting out my issue and I bled the coolant with the heater full blast and since then I haven't been losing much/any coolant from the overflow hose. :). I've been keeping an eye on it but haven't done any drieves longer than 15 minutes but even that driving before would cause it to drip out very regularly. Does anyone think bleeding the system and running the heater would stop the over pressurization thats been ocurring? Also, I was pretty sure I did it right when I changed my coolant but maybe not? Time will tell and i will let you know if it starts to leak again. Hopefully not though!

[bob10]

Yeah, Trevor, sometimes we go straight to the worst case, when in fact it can be something quite simple. One thing I know, sooner or later you will have to replace that little hose, it can be a bit of a struggle. People who work on Land Rovers have to have perseverence, & a refined sense of humour! Good luck, Bob

[tcgooge]

Could it be that this is a self aggravating problem?
Since the first "warming" of the engine, the occurrence has been more regular (although irregular).
So I am thinking that, given the age of the head bolts (not to mention the unknown running history) that they might have "stretched" beyond their mechanical serviceability.
This would then account for the irregular purging and certainly the more consistent purging when on long hard runs.
To this extent, I have decided to bite the bullet and replace the head gasket and head bolts. This would then give me piece of mind regarding this piece of the jigsaw.

[tcgooge]

Bit of a sad update.
Finally bit the bullet and took the head off.
When tested it was found to be quite warped! Looks as though it had developed a hot pocket in the back of the block, furtherest from the temp sensor.
This then led to the cam shaft follower seizing and burring the cam shaft.
Purchased a new head and parts and is in the local shop getting a make-over.
So far has cost about $3000 at mates rates and it's not back together yet!😢

Whilst it's off, I am thinking of putting a second temperature sensor in, can anyone suggest the best spot for this?

BTW, when pulled apart found many other little things.
The timing chain guide was broken and had been for some time.
The exhaust manifold had two gaskets in it and some of the nuts missing.
Many other little things like busted clips taped over and hose clamps only just holding.
These are things that had been missing/broken for some time, longer than I have been the proud owner.
So even some of the more reputable workshops are prone to little shortcuts. 👎

[alpick]

"always managed to pull over before to far gone, just enough to set the warning light off."

again proof that relying on your LR temp gauge means that by the time it says your engine is getting too hot its too late, your cooked.(search for the sorry tales). If your temp gauge goes above the horizontal pull over. Do not wait for the light.!!

I have a TM2 combo head temp and coolant level sensor. The temp sensor measures from being attached to the passenger side of the head at the firewalll end.

so i have a coolant temp sensor (the gauge) and a digital head temp readout as well.

cheers.

AP