P38 Coil Suspension Conversion

[p38oncoils]

While the subject has been covered a number of times in the past I decided to add my account to the forum to benefit anyone that is contemplating performing this conversion. While the superior comfort of the air bag suspension is not in question the objective of the conversion was to increase the reliability of the suspension of the vehicle for off road use and to that effect the air bag system was removed and coil springs fitted. Alan Bates' coil spring conversion article which can be reached from the following page (RockRover - P38 Range Rover Winch Bumpers and Sliders (http://www.rockrover.com/) ) served as a guiding light for me when performing the conversion and I acknowledge his invaluable contribution. As the end result of the conversion is above the 2” maximum legal lift from standard please look at this as one mans account of work performed on his own vehicle, not a specific recommendation for your vehicle – you must make up your mind how much lift you choose to perform on your own vehicle.

Old Man Emu springs are fitted to the vehicle - OME 2761 on the front and OME 2764 at the rear mounted with Land Rover coil spring insolators between the spring and chassis. The reason for choosing those particular springs was to stay as close to the spring rate of the air bags as possible in order to retain the comfortable ride of the vehicle. While the spring rate is a bit higher than the spring rate of the air bag system the end result is a reasonably soft ride with good handling on road and good off road articulation.

In order to perform the conversion I purchased a coil spring conversion hardware kit (RCA2C4046AK) from British Parts of Utah (which came with instructions on how to perform the conversion) and consists of spring mounting adapters, spring seats and isolators and wiring and instructions on how to disable the EAS alarm. The components of the kit are made by Arnott Industries. The front springs are OME 2761 which are Medium-Duty springs with a spring rate of 200 lb/in and a length of approximately 395mm. The rear springs are OME 2764 which are Medium-Duty springs with a spring rate of 220 lb/in and an approximate length of 425mm.

The vehicle has stock bumpers front and rear and has been fitted with 1” spring spacers from Arnott Industries (Arnott part number: K-2257) that are bolted between the bottom spring seat adaptor and spring seat on the right hand front spring (to counteract for the weight of the steering box and battery on that side) and 1” spacers bolted between the bottom spring seat adaptor and spring seat on both rear springs for extra lift. The combination of springs and spacers gives a total suspension lift of 2.75” on the front and 3.5” on the rear. On my vehicle 2.75” is the maximum front suspension lift that can be achived without causing front driveshaft vibration using the original drive shaft.

Standard front shock absorbers (STC3672) are fitted to both rear axle and front axle in order to maintain the comfortable ride of the vehicle. The front shock absorbers are longer than the rear ones and are used at the rear to compensate for the extra lift. The front shock absorbers are fitted with a 75x75x5mm RHS extension between the bottom shock absorber mount and the front axle in order to maintain the suspension travel with the extra lift. Sway bar linkages are also lengthened 75mm to compensate for the added lift. Slight relocation of the brake lines and ABS sensor wiring was done in order to eliminate the possibility of damaging them under maximum articulation.

The results of the lift from ground to top of wheel well with different size tyres are approximately as follows:

Front: 255 65 16 = 34.5” / 265 75 16 = 36.5” / 285 75 16 = 37.5”
Rear: 255 65 16 = 35.5” / 265 75 16 = 37.5” / 285 75 16 = 38.5”

The end result meets all my expectations for suspension performance, safety and comfort of the vehicle.

[serbastion]

Hi did you purchase your ome springs locally as arb are the agents for ome springs ( my local arb shop looks at me with weird overtones when i mention r/r you should of seen the looks when i ordered my lockers ) i have seriously considered fitting coils as air bags leave a lot to be desired off road particually on rocky steps are the coil spacers metal or poly type

[Keithy P38]

A well written article! I agree with your reasoning behind the swap to coils, as you say, it's your cup of tea and reliability out bush is your objective (I have felt the discomfort of being on the bump stops very far from home).

I would be interested to compare our heights, might measure mine today! I am still an airbag man however!

Cheers
Keithy

[DT-P38]

I really like that Rock Rover USA stuff, but am a dedicated Airbag & EAS fan... as such I love my Hard Range Australia 2" Airbag Spacer Lift Kit most!!!

I personally don't reckon you can beat driving to the tracks with a lower centre of gravity (in freeway mode) and then punching the button and get 4+ inches of lift to tackle virtually anything Australia can offer.

Also, don't know if I agree that bags can't handle rock steps... mine has been over some pretty curly terrain through the High Country with out issue. Most of the time it comfortably meets or exceeds the capabilities of the coil sprung vehicles I often travel with (Toyo's, Nissans and LR's).

Your entitled to youir opinion though... would love an opportunity to compare side by side some day! Do you have any photo's to share of your castrated (not so subtle, tongue in cheek humour!) Rangie please?

HooRoo, Dave

[RR P38]

Im not sure how it can be said that the airbags are not as good off road-(rocky ledges).
Being able to adjust your ride height is a big positive especially if you are on a high speed twisty rd, either on or off road. Lowering your center of gravity at will is a major + in my books.
Load leveling is another thing to consider, when i do a trip away i load up pretty well and i always look to my suspension with confidence when it comes time to drive away all trim.
Heavy trailer with coils looks shocking on coils air bags rule here as well.
Using my rangie most weekends off road still only accounts for a very small percentage of my vehicles time in motion and dont see any advantage in coils off rd.
Sure maintenance is an issue and coils win out here, having said that i dont mind changing out air bags 15 minutes a corner is all it takes......er and $120 a side.
EAS is a great system and i love it.

[p38oncoils]

Hi did you purchase your ome springs locally as arb are the agents for ome springs ( my local arb shop looks at me with weird overtones when i mention r/r you should of seen the looks when i ordered my lockers ) i have seriously considered fitting coils as air bags leave a lot to be desired off road particually on rocky steps are the coil spacers metal or poly type

Hi serbastion. I purchased the OME springs at an ARB store. I gave them the part numbers of the springs that I wanted and they ordered them in for me. The spacers are made by Arnott Industries from 6061-T6 aircraft aluminium and are made to bolt directly to their coil spring conversion. In this kit the spacers are bolted between the lower spring seat and the conversion adapter that mounts on top of the axle. You can get more information on them at the following webpage: 1 in. Aluminum Spacers for 1995-2002 (4.0L, 4.6L, and 2.5L) P38A Range Rover (http://www.arnottindustries.com/part_LAND_ROVER_Air_Suspension_Parts_yid4_pid22_gi d300.html)

[p38oncoils]

A well written article! I agree with your reasoning behind the swap to coils, as you say, it's your cup of tea and reliability out bush is your objective (I have felt the discomfort of being on the bump stops very far from home).

I would be interested to compare our heights, might measure mine today! I am still an airbag man however!

Cheers
Keithy

Keithy P38, thank you for the compliment. There is no dispute about the comfort of the air bag setup, my objective was to bypass what one Land Rover specialist that I spoke to referred to as “90% of the problems with the P38.”

[p38oncoils]

I really like that Rock Rover USA stuff, but am a dedicated Airbag & EAS fan... as such I love my Hard Range Australia 2" Airbag Spacer Lift Kit most!!!

I personally don't reckon you can beat driving to the tracks with a lower centre of gravity (in freeway mode) and then punching the button and get 4+ inches of lift to tackle virtually anything Australia can offer.

Also, don't know if I agree that bags can't handle rock steps... mine has been over some pretty curly terrain through the High Country with out issue. Most of the time it comfortably meets or exceeds the capabilities of the coil sprung vehicles I often travel with (Toyo's, Nissans and LR's).

Your entitled to youir opinion though... would love an opportunity to compare side by side some day! Do you have any photo's to share of your castrated (not so subtle, tongue in cheek humour!) Rangie please?

HooRoo, Dave

Hi DT-P38. I'm sure our paths will cross some day – until then, attached is a picture of my “castrated” beast out in the wild ;) http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/p38oncoils-albums-p38oncoils-picture3416-articulation.jpg

[p38oncoils]

Im not sure how it can be said that the airbags are not as good off road-(rocky ledges).
Being able to adjust your ride height is a big positive especially if you are on a high speed twisty rd, either on or off road. Lowering your center of gravity at will is a major + in my books.
Load leveling is another thing to consider, when i do a trip away i load up pretty well and i always look to my suspension with confidence when it comes time to drive away all trim.
Heavy trailer with coils looks shocking on coils air bags rule here as well.
Using my rangie most weekends off road still only accounts for a very small percentage of my vehicles time in motion and dont see any advantage in coils off rd.
Sure maintenance is an issue and coils win out here, having said that i dont mind changing out air bags 15 minutes a corner is all it takes......er and $120 a side.
EAS is a great system and i love it.

Hi RR P38, I agree with load levelling as a bonus as well as a smooth ride but, in regard to off road driving - depending on your suspension setup - if you have standard suspension then there is limited suspension articulation in high setting and the ability to keep all four wheels on the ground which is of paramount importance is compromised. If you are in normal setting you will have articulation but you will lack ground clearance.

If on the other hand you have your airbag system lifted and recalibrated, along with a modified shock absorber and potentiometer setup, you will have the extra ground clearance and the articulation that is so important but you are still bound to the reliability issues that haunt the airbag system in this vehicle and continue to give it a bad name (whether we like it or not). I don't need to go into discussion of what those issues are – horror stories abound on the web if one cares to look for them.

I share your passion for the P38 and it is my opinion that it is one of the most – if not the most comfortable off road capable SUV available to mortals like us. Lifting and improving the articulation of the suspension makes a good off road capable vehicle a great off road capable vehicle regardless of whether the suspension is air bag based or coil spring based. It all comes back to what level of reliability one settles for. For me coil springs win on reliability.

[redandy3575]

Hi RR P38, I agree with load levelling as a bonus as well as a smooth ride but, in regard to off road driving - depending on your suspension setup - if you have standard suspension then there is limited suspension articulation in high setting and the ability to keep all four wheels on the ground which is of paramount importance is compromised. If you are in normal setting you will have articulation but you will lack ground clearance.

If on the other hand you have your airbag system lifted and recalibrated, along with a modified shock absorber and potentiometer setup, you will have the extra ground clearance and the articulation that is so important but you are still bound to the reliability issues that haunt the airbag system in this vehicle and continue to give it a bad name (whether we like it or not). I don't need to go into discussion of what those issues are – horror stories abound on the web if one cares to look for them.

I share your passion for the P38 and it is my opinion that it is one of the most – if not the most comfortable off road capable SUV available to mortals like us. Lifting and improving the articulation of the suspension makes a good off road capable vehicle a great off road capable vehicle regardless of whether the suspension is air bag based or coil spring based. It all comes back to what level of reliability one settles for. For me coil springs win on reliability.

Yeah.....i'd have to disagree with you on this one in numerous ways. Firstly in my opinion, and my opinion only, if converting to coils is your thing then don't settle for a Range Rover P38 but rather a series 1 or 2 Discovery which most models have the coils anyway and would be more up your alley in what your looking for as the airbags suspension (and i've said this before) is one of the main key features of why you or rather i chose the Range Rover in the first place. By doing my research found that the airbag suspension setup along with BeCM system reads and sensors the terrain by interacting with the springs, something you cannot do with coils as the suspension in a coil setup is working totally independant. Not only that, but your taking a step backward in off-road technology (bit like going from coils back to leaf springs). As far as reliability is concerned, airbag springs are only going to be as reliable as either yourself or your mechanic is willing to thoroughly inspect them properly upon your regular service interval. Ignore it, and like everything else, they will fail at some point. I might add coils are really no different, they too suffer from metal fatigue and prolonged sagging over time, and like airbags, they too need regular inspection. As someone else here on AULRO mentioned, airbags are now very commonly used not only in modern 4WD's but truck, buses & cars that are either towing or hauling heavy weights, so they're not uncommon, just different that's all. And as far as flexiblity is concerned, i run stock standard airsprings on mine, and they still out flex your typical japanese 4WD in more ways than one. Running over 2 inch lift might sound ok to you, but i reckon your insurance company would want to keep a close eye on you as that's above the legal limit within most insurance guidelines and you may find yourself driving uninsured unless going with a specialist insurance mob.

Look these are really only my opinion on this subject and that's all, but you really shouldn't believe everything you hear about the horror stories in regards to the P38 Range Rover & the airbag suspensions, cause as i said before, they're only as good as your prepared to maintain them. I personally have admired the Range Rover P38 for what they are, and respect the fact that they're not called 'King of off-road' or ' the most capable 4x4' for nothing.

[PaulP38a]

In addition to Redandy's comments on the legalities of a +2" lift, there is also the insurance aspect of it all. There was never a coil sprung P38 model released by Land Rover, so you would be relying on the ignorance of your insurance company should you ever have to make a claim. This is also true of your local RTA and authorised vehicle inspectors.

Most of the time you will be lucky as these folks generally have no idea about air suspension and think of it as something that only goes on trucks, and as load levelling assist.

When I transferred my lifted P38 from Qld to NSW the inspector had no concerns about the 2" lift and 33" tyres but asked me for an engineers certificate for the air suspension. I just showed him the owners manual ;)

I applaud P38oncoils' write-up and respect his decision to convert the best 4x4xFar in to just another 4x4. When you own the car, it is yours to do with as you wish.

When people contact me with issues on their EAS, usually due to lack of maintenance, I sometimes get asked about coil conversion. My standard response is "buy a non-SLS Disco 2 and sell the P38 to someone who will look after it". If you have deep pockets and are prepared to let a mechanic learn on your car, or are prepared to let LR replace components rather than repair them... that is a hands-off approach to P38 ownership.

IMHO the P38 is now an enthusiast vehicle that requires an owner willing to maintain some parts of the vehicle him/herself, the EAS being the most obvious... Not because it is difficult or expensive (it is quite simple and cheap to maintain) but because people get scared off by dealers and workshops who don't know/care and want to charge silly amounts to do anything on it.

While I have had to do a couple of in-field repairs to the EAS during off-road playtimes, the time taken was less than recovering my coil-sprung companions from situations where they could not keep up. BTW the only time my EAS is set to high mode (less articulation) is when doing water crossings.

The main design flaw in the EAS is that LR did not include a means to individually inflate the bags in the event of component or system failure. This is the cause of most EAS horror stories. There are several variants of my (i mean our, it is actually Andy's design) EAS Emergency Bypass Kit out there, or just carry around 4 Schroeder valves. If you are an off-roader you will already have an air compressor in the boot for tyre inflation. A punctured bag is not the end of the world (hopefully you carry a spare) and it is quite possible to carry on with 3 bags operated manually to compensate. Coils fade and break too, with more devastating results as you can't pump up the other coils to compensate.

Cheers, Paul.

[redandy3575]

i actually have the 4 schroeder valve, and to this day haven't had to use it.

[Scouse]

That's why it hasn't failed.

Do a trip & no matter what tools/spares you take, you'll need what you've left behind.
:(:(:(

[p38oncoils]

Yeah.....i'd have to disagree with you on this one in numerous ways. Firstly in my opinion, and my opinion only, if converting to coils is your thing then don't settle for a Range Rover P38 but rather a series 1 or 2 Discovery which most models have the coils anyway and would be more up your alley in what your looking for as the airbags suspension (and i've said this before) is one of the main key features of why you or rather i chose the Range Rover in the first place.


Converting to coils is not “my thing” but after having done my research on other P38 owners experiences by the way of the internet I chose to convert the suspension to coils in order to eliminate what one Land Rover mechanic that I spoke to referred to as “90% of the problems with the P38”. In the same way as you didn't purchase a P38 because you simply had to have a vehicle with airbag suspension I didn't purchase my vehicle because I just had to have a vehicle that I could convert to coil springs. So when you suggest that I should purchase a Discovery I draw to your attention to other factors that came into play as I contemplated owning a P38. Some of the things that I considered were the look of the vehicle, the sound proofing, street credibility, its off road capability and the price of the vehicle as well as other more subjective ones.


By doing my research found that the airbag suspension setup along with BeCM system reads and sensors the terrain by interacting with the springs, something you cannot do with coils as the suspension in a coil setup is working totally independant.


Correct me if I'm wrong bit my recollection is that there is a 20 second delay in the the activation of the airbag system in relation to the positioning of the suspension potentiometers, so that the system does not respond to the terrain as you drive the vehicle over undulating terrain. When you are driving in a particular setting the air springs operate exactly the same way as coil springs. If the system was that active you would find that your air compressor would wear out in a relatively short period of time.



Not only that, but your taking a step backward in off-road technology (bit like going from coils back to leaf springs). As far as reliability is concerned, airbag springs are only going to be as reliable as either yourself or your mechanic is willing to thoroughly inspect them properly upon your regular service interval. Ignore it, and like everything else, they will fail at some point.


What you are stating here is correct and this is where part of the problem stems. My experience is that a substantial percentage of vehicle owners try to get as much driving out of the vehicle with the minimum amount of money spent on them in maintenance. The end result is that the system will fail.



I might add coils are really no different, they too suffer from metal fatigue and prolonged sagging over time, and like airbags, they too need regular inspection.


You are correct on this point also – so if you are converting to coil springs do your homework and be sure to buy them from a quality source.



As someone else here on AULRO mentioned, airbags are now very commonly used not only in modern 4WD's but truck, buses & cars that are either towing or hauling heavy weights, so they're not uncommon, just different that's all. And as far as flexiblity is concerned, i run stock standard airsprings on mine, and they still out flex your typical japanese 4WD in more ways than one. Running over 2 inch lift might sound ok to you, but i reckon your insurance company would want to keep a close eye on you as that's above the legal limit within most insurance guidelines and you may find yourself driving uninsured unless going with a specialist insurance mob.


Do as I did, inform the insurance company of what you have done and they may want to have a look at the vehicle, if they refuse to insure it with the lift then go to another insurance company. Keep in mind that a substantial number of 4WD vehicles that are driving on our roads are lifted more than 4” as well as running tyres that substantially larger than the tyres that came with them when new. If you are going to make an issue of a moderate suspension lift then you should also question the legality of running oversize tyres for a given vehicle. While I am declaring a lift above 2” on my vehicle I can categorically state that my vehicle looks like a low rider compared to some of the pictures that I have seen of air suspension vehicles on this forum with a “legal” 2 inch lift ;)

[p38oncoils]

In addition to Redandy's comments on the legalities of a +2" lift, there is also the insurance aspect of it all. There was never a coil sprung P38 model released by Land Rover, so you would be relying on the ignorance of your insurance company should you ever have to make a claim. This is also true of your local RTA and authorised vehicle inspectors.

Most of the time you will be lucky as these folks generally have no idea about air suspension and think of it as something that only goes on trucks, and as load levelling assist.

When I transferred my lifted P38 from Qld to NSW the inspector had no concerns about the 2" lift and 33" tyres but asked me for an engineers certificate for the air suspension. I just showed him the owners manual ;)


While there has never been a coil sprung P38 model released by Land Rover a 2 inch lift coil spring conversion is accepted by both vehicle inspectors and insurance companies as long as the spring rate is above that of the air springs that the vehicle came with. To the best of my knowledge you will struggle to get coil springs with a lower spring rate than the standard air springs of the P38 under normal load.

As you point out the vehicle inspector that inspected your vehicle had no concerns about the 2 inch lift nor the 33 inch tyres. Look, some of these inspectors have 4WD vehicles that have been lifted and modified and its not fair to assume that they are ignorant when it comes to the various 4WD vehicles. These inspectors are human and have a fair bit of discretion on how tough they will be when inspecting your vehicle. Depending on what the issue that they are dealing with is they can and will (in my experience) show leniency when it comes to common sense in regard to some modifications outside of stated legal limits – tyre sizes and suspension lifts are instances where I have seen a great deal of discretion used.



I applaud P38oncoils' write-up and respect his decision to convert the best 4x4xFar in to just another 4x4. When you own the car, it is yours to do with as you wish.

When people contact me with issues on their EAS, usually due to lack of maintenance, I sometimes get asked about coil conversion. My standard response is "buy a non-SLS Disco 2 and sell the P38 to someone who will look after it". If you have deep pockets and are prepared to let a mechanic learn on your car, or are prepared to let LR replace components rather than repair them... that is a hands-off approach to P38 ownership.

IMHO the P38 is now an enthusiast vehicle that requires an owner willing to maintain some parts of the vehicle him/herself, the EAS being the most obvious... Not because it is difficult or expensive (it is quite simple and cheap to maintain) but because people get scared off by dealers and workshops who don't know/care and want to charge silly amounts to do anything on it.

While I have had to do a couple of in-field repairs to the EAS during off-road playtimes, the time taken was less than recovering my coil-sprung companions from situations where they could not keep up. BTW the only time my EAS is set to high mode (less articulation) is when doing water crossings.

The main design flaw in the EAS is that LR did not include a means to individually inflate the bags in the event of component or system failure. This is the cause of most EAS horror stories. There are several variants of my (i mean our, it is actually Andy's design) EAS Emergency Bypass Kit out there, or just carry around 4 Schroeder valves. If you are an off-roader you will already have an air compressor in the boot for tyre inflation. A punctured bag is not the end of the world (hopefully you carry a spare) and it is quite possible to carry on with 3 bags operated manually to compensate. Coils fade and break too, with more devastating results as you can't pump up the other coils to compensate.

Cheers, Paul.

Thank you for your kind words Paul. A P38 is only an enthusiasts vehicle if it is in the hands of an enthusiast. There is a reason for so many P38s ending up in wrecking yards (in my opinion) prematurely. The fact is that not all people that want to own a P38 have either the capability nor perseverance to keep on top of maintaining the air suspension system (as well as other annoyances). The EAS has broken many an owner of a P38 and included in those are some that have been ardent mouthpieces for the benefits of the system. As you know Arnott Industries who manufactures the Gen III airsprings that are in your vehicle also manufacture the coil spring conversion kit that I use in my vehicle (the springs are from Old Man Emu). It can't be all bad.

I realise all the benefits of the system but I am not blind to its drawbacks and neither are you. As you point out there are design flaws in the system that compound the issues of substandard maintenance and this is where the main cause of the “90% of the problems with the P38” lies. Be fair when approached by a person that wants to own a P38 and don't deny him the chance of doing so even if he may choose to bypass “90% of the problems with the P38” by installing a coil suspension system, it doesn't have to be a lift that is over 2 inches. If an individual wants to own a P38 please don't condemn him to owning a Discovery, which is a totally different vehicle, if it is a P38 that he wants for all the other benefits either perceived or real. Keep in mind that each match-up between an happy owner and a P38 is one less P38 for the wrecking yards ;)

[Gippslander]

I own a P38 on coils it came with them and passed a roadworthy to do so i have since changed them to 2" over King coils with Bilstiens.:cool: Recently participated in the Alpine challenge in the P38 over three days from Walhalla to Harriettville and was really happy i have done some 40,00kms since buying the old girl and absolutely love it (when it isn't broken or being stubborn) I have a D3 on air and love it also but out of the two i feel more comfortable out in the bush in the P38 on coils as the chance of breaking a coil as compared to stuffing an air bag i believe is less. :angel:Each to there own when it comes to cars mine is mine and i like it that way yours is yours and you like it that way if you didn't you could always buy a Nissan or Crapota.
Gippslander.:D

[DT-P38]

A hell of a lot of words here to say very little. Boring, boring, boring. Doesn't matter how you look at it, a p38 is an air suspension equipped vehicle by design and build of it's manufacturer.

Do what you want with yours to make yourself feel ok about it. But don't tell me mines any less for being the real deal. If the systems were such a big problem LR would have ****ed them off after the P38, not put versions of them into just about everything released since.

I reckon you have lobotomised and castrated your version of the car LR originally built. But hey, if it makes it easy for you to live with enjoy! Myself and many other purist enthusiasts will happily do the easy yards to keep ours true to the original "Best of Breed" design standards. Instead of just going the simple backwards option of dumbing them down.

Perhaps we can also focus on taking the bull**** out of EAS being such a big drama. It's a robust system when kept in good order. "80% of issues" is one "grease monkeys" questionable personal opinion based on his experiences.

You should have asked that fella what the true "root causes" of him developing that opinion were... Like lack of servicing and maintenance and general wear and tear. And quite possibly his dumb fear of the unknown through having never reco'd one completely himself.

Anyway, let's keep saving them from the scrap heap by educating on the ease and low cost of DIY EAS maintenance and repair. And that way at least the ones we save will be original and true to the manufacturers intended design.

[rovercare]

Why did this turn into an EAS pro con thread?, these are all you see, some think it's a huge bravado thing they saved the EAS, big ****ing whoopy, it's just a **** stinking car, carve the thing up, do as you please, coils for you? Cool, nothing wrong with that, EAS? Yay..... Whatever, do some of you really harp on so much about EAS in the real world? Cause seriously, it's a modified p38 that goes bush and that's a good thing

[redandy3575]

Why did this turn into an EAS pro con thread?, these are all you see, some think it's a huge bravado thing they saved the EAS, big ****ing whoopy, it's just a **** stinking car, carve the thing up, do as you please, coils for you? Cool, nothing wrong with that, EAS? Yay..... Whatever, do some of you really harp on so much about EAS in the real world? Cause seriously, it's a modified p38 that goes bush and that's a good thing

We're just having a friendly debate that's all, i don't think there's any hard feelings amongst us.

I as an enthusiast with not just P38, but cars in general see the real value with vehicles kept to originality with the best possible care over time. Let's look at say a Phase 3 XY Ford Falcon GT ' Shaker', there are so many aftermarket conversions out there to make just about any XY falcon look and run like the real thing but.............they're not real & genuine. Despite how the aftermarket conversion looks and sounds, they're not worth 2 bob when going to sell it, why, because a cashed up enthusiast will know and only a fool will fall for the fake. Now having said that, i don't mind some mild aftermarket changes to lightly spice up the looks a little without doing any strucktual changes i can settle for that as can many enthusiasts, but drastic changes will reduce the vehicles appeal.

Where is all this going?? well if i and most likely many of you not only P38 enthusiast, but LR in general will look out for when purchasing your next LR is how well the vehicle has been cared and maintained in its past life. I know when looking around online at other later P38's (1999 - 2001), as soon as the word 'coil conversion' is mentioned, i immediately stop looking at that vehicle and move on. Cause to me that says the vehicle has had somewhat half its guts torn out and is not worth anywhere near their rediculous asking price. Again, only a fool will pay it not knowing what has been done, (bit like that Car history advert with that blue Volvo).

But look, at the end of the day if coil conversion is your thing, it's your car, and as Paul said, you can do whatever pleases you. But one thing is for certain that i won't be the one buying off you when selling it.

Also regarding lift kits, i see them as more trouble than their worth as it involves more than just simply lifting a vehicle and again will require changes both strucktualy and mechanically. Personally i'm not a huge fan of lifts, which again with air suspension you do not need as you can adjust your ride height to suit the road condition, instead of sitting up high all the time swaying like the leaning tower of Pisa. Your insurance company may be oblivious to this, but i can guarantee you one thing that when it comes to paying out and their bottom line is at stake here, they''ll find something to ping you on, and if you don't know your legality limits and have the right paperwork (e'g engineer certificate) your on your own.
A lot of 4WD's with these oversized tyres and 4 inch lifts you'll find that they'll either have specialist insurance (i.e Shannons) or worse, no insurance at all, and are really taking a gamble.

[redandy3575]

Be fair when approached by a person that wants to own a P38 and don't deny him the chance of doing so even if he may choose to bypass “90% of the problems with the P38” by installing a coil suspension system, it doesn't have to be a lift that is over 2 inches. If an individual wants to own a P38 please don't condemn him to owning a Discovery, which is a totally different vehicle, if it is a P38 that he wants for all the other benefits either perceived or real. Keep in mind that each match-up between an happy owner and a P38 is one less P38 for the wrecking yards ;)

Look no one is denying anything, if coils is your choice, so be it... But remember that you started this thread off looking for other peoples opinions & comments, so here we are giving it to you, we're only saying it how we feel it, so please don't hold that against us.

As i said in other posts is i'm not fan of it personally, but if you choose to go down that road, then that is your choice, it is your vehicle after all. And if you think that 90% of the problem is EAS related, then that is your opinion on that. Again i don't think that is the case as most issues i've had been non-EAS related, a simple wear & tear issues with a vehicle that is 16 years old. It all comes down to how prepared you are if things do go wrong, can you fix it? Like would you drive on solid rubber tyres so you don't get a puncture etc. Where do you draw the line.......[bigwhistle]

[p38oncoils]

Perhaps we can also focus on taking the bull**** out of EAS being such a big drama. It's a robust system when kept in good order. "80% of issues" is one "grease monkeys" questionable personal opinion based on his experiences.

You should have asked that fella what the true "root causes" of him developing that opinion were... Like lack of servicing and maintenance and general wear and tear. And quite possibly his dumb fear of the unknown through having never reco'd one completely himself.


Hi DT-P38. The "root causes" of developing that opinion is that he is a Land Rover specialist and repairs them when owners bring their P38s in for repairs ;) But you are correct in your opinion that lack of maintenance (along with some design issues as PaulP38 pointed out earlier) is the main cause of the issues with the EAS.

[wayneg]

Each to their own, If a Coil conversion for you is cheaper than a set of air springs and a valve block o ring kit then why not.
I have had air sprung Range Rovers since 1993 and would never consider a coil conversion. The system is resilient and from my experience trouble free for 8 years or so. Then like most things a bit of TLC or replacement is needed. I have yet to hear of a Land Rover Specialist garage with the knowledge or inclination to repair any parts of the EAS so the poor punter has to replace very expensive parts that are most probably serviceable. No doubt the cost of labour is a big factor as well.
As already said, if I were also in the market for another P38 as soon as I saw Coil Conversion in an add I would discount that car immediately.

[rovercare]

We're just having a friendly debate that's all, i don't think there's any hard feelings amongst us.

I as an enthusiast with not just P38, but cars in general see the real value with vehicles kept to originality with the best possible care over time. Let's look at say a Phase 3 XY Ford Falcon GT ' Shaker', there are so many aftermarket conversions out there to make just about any XY falcon look and run like the real thing but.............they're not real & genuine. Despite how the aftermarket conversion looks and sounds, they're not worth 2 bob when going to sell it, why, because a cashed up enthusiast will know and only a fool will fall for the fake. Now having said that, i don't mind some mild aftermarket changes to lightly spice up the looks a little without doing any strucktual changes i can settle for that as can many enthusiasts, but drastic changes will reduce the vehicles appeal.

.

Your comparing a gtho to a p38, now that's dillusional! It should be compared with every xy, as it's no rare, race prepped version built for a differing purpose, a p38 is merely just a range rover

[redandy3575]

Your comparing a gtho to a p38, now that's dillusional! It should be compared with every xy, as it's no rare, race prepped version built for a differing purpose, a p38 is merely just a range rover

Did you read the rest of thread? At what point did I compare a P38 with a GTHO?

[p38oncoils]

I reckon you have lobotomised and castrated your version of the car LR originally built. But hey, if it makes it easy for you to live with enjoy! Myself and many other purist enthusiasts will happily do the easy yards to keep ours true to the original "Best of Breed" design standards. Instead of just going the simple backwards option of dumbing them down.


Has yours really been kept true to the original “Best of Breed” standard? No modifications;)


Also regarding lift kits, i see them as more trouble than their worth as it involves more than just simply lifting a vehicle and again will require changes both strucktualy and mechanically. Personally i'm not a huge fan of lifts, which again with air suspension you do not need as you can adjust your ride height to suit the road condition, instead of sitting up high all the time swaying like the leaning tower of Pisa. Your insurance company may be oblivious to this, but i can guarantee you one thing that when it comes to paying out and their bottom line is at stake here, they''ll find something to ping you on, and if you don't know your legality limits and have the right paperwork (e'g engineer certificate) your on your own.
A lot of 4WD's with these oversized tyres and 4 inch lifts you'll find that they'll either have specialist insurance (i.e Shannons) or worse, no insurance at all, and are really taking a gamble.

Are you against all lift kits, air suspension lift kits included, or just coil spring suspension lift kits? Bigger tyres, such as 33 inch, are also a way to lift vehicles - against them as well ;)


In light of the comments about coil spring conversions on the P38 by the die hard adherents of the P38 air spring system I will highlight a few things about the most advanced version of the P38 air spring setup that is available to the general public in the form of Arnott Industries Gen III air springs and Hard Range air spring lift kits in order to put the discussion taking place into logical perspective.

The original P38 air spring spring rate under normal load is about 190 lb/in. The Gen III air springs from Arnott Industries are a lot firmer at highway setting than the original ones and thus effectively take the spring rate of the Gen III air springs over 200 lb/in which is close to that of a soft coil spring coversion setup. This has been hailed as a substantial improvement on the overly soft spring rate of the original air springs, thus making the vehicle better handling in highway mode and a safer vehicle at highway speeds.

The Gen III front air springs give an extra 2 inches of travel and the rear Gen III air springs give an extra 3.5 inches of travel. To maximise the off road abilities of the P38 it makes perfect sense to purchase a 2 inch air suspension lift kit from Hard Range Australia and extended shock absorbers in order to access the full possibilities of what the air spring suspension invites. With with the HR 2 inch lift and the Gen III air springs that makes up 4 inch suspension lift on the front axle and 5.5 inch lift on the rear axle. To further maximise the vehicles potential one can fit 33 inch tyres which will give an extra 2 inch lift on the vehicle. If one has maximised the off road capability of an air sprung P38 in this way one will have 6 inches total lift from standard on the front axle and 7.5 inches on the rear axle.

Another one of the improvements of the Arnott Gen III air springs is to provide a softer spring rate at high lift, opposed to the unpopular firm spring rate of the standard air springs at high lift. While there is a more comfortable ride gained by this in rough terrain the drawback of the lower spring rate of the Arnott Gen III air springs at high lift is that the vehicle will sway more as the centre of gravity of the lifted vehicle is that much higher than that of a standard P38. If one decides to install quick disconnect anti-sway bar linkages and then choose to drive without them fitted then the vehicle will become very unstable in certain terrain because of the absence of the anti-sway bar. It is not called an anti sway bar without reason.

I've written these observations tounge in cheek to show that when one lives in a glass house one should be weary of throwing stones ;) It's not all black and white when it comes to choosing between coil spring suspensions and air spring suspensions. The hypothetical air spring vehicle above would be a lot more off road capable than my modest P38 with a maximum suspension lift of under 4 inches but would still be subject to the reliability issues discussed earlier, but as also discussed those reliability issues can be moderated by keeping up your maintenance. What ever way you go just enjoy what you have ;)

[DT-P38]

Yes but with enhancement to EAS, not complete removal and replacement with "classic" standard stuff.

Completely different kettle of fish that. But you keep telling yourself (and the rest of us) whatever you need to. Tongue in cheek or whatever.

You have my opinion on your set up pretty clearly already... The subject does nothing for me.

Over and out.

[redandy3575]

Has yours really been kept true to the original “Best of Breed” standard? No modifications;)



Are you against all lift kits, air suspension lift kits included, or just coil spring suspension lift kits? Bigger tyres, such as 33 inch, are also a way to lift vehicles - against them as well ;)


In light of the comments about coil spring conversions on the P38 by the die hard adherents of the P38 air spring system I will highlight a few things about the most advanced version of the P38 air spring setup that is available to the general public in the form of Arnott Industries Gen III air springs and Hard Range air spring lift kits in order to put the discussion taking place into logical perspective.

The original P38 air spring spring rate under normal load is about 190 lb/in. The Gen III air springs from Arnott Industries are a lot firmer at highway setting than the original ones and thus effectively take the spring rate of the Gen III air springs over 200 lb/in which is close to that of a soft coil spring coversion setup. This has been hailed as a substantial improvement on the overly soft spring rate of the original air springs, thus making the vehicle better handling in highway mode and a safer vehicle at highway speeds.

The Gen III front air springs give an extra 2 inches of travel and the rear Gen III air springs give an extra 3.5 inches of travel. To maximise the off road abilities of the P38 it makes perfect sense to purchase a 2 inch air suspension lift kit from Hard Range Australia and extended shock absorbers in order to access the full possibilities of what the air spring suspension invites. With with the HR 2 inch lift and the Gen III air springs that makes up 4 inch suspension lift on the front axle and 5.5 inch lift on the rear axle. To further maximise the vehicles potential one can fit 33 inch tyres which will give an extra 2 inch lift on the vehicle. If one has maximised the off road capability of an air sprung P38 in this way one will have 6 inches total lift from standard on the front axle and 7.5 inches on the rear axle.

Another one of the improvements of the Arnott Gen III air springs is to provide a softer spring rate at high lift, opposed to the unpopular firm spring rate of the standard air springs at high lift. While there is a more comfortable ride gained by this in rough terrain the drawback of the lower spring rate of the Arnott Gen III air springs at high lift is that the vehicle will sway more as the centre of gravity of the lifted vehicle is that much higher than that of a standard P38. If one decides to install quick disconnect anti-sway bar linkages and then choose to drive without them fitted then the vehicle will become very unstable in certain terrain because of the absence of the anti-sway bar. It is not called an anti sway bar without reason.

I've written these observations tounge in cheek to show that when one lives in a glass house one should be weary of throwing stones ;) It's not all black and white when it comes to choosing between coil spring suspensions and air spring suspensions. The hypothetical air spring vehicle above would be a lot more off road capable than my modest P38 with a maximum suspension lift of under 4 inches but would still be subject to the reliability issues discussed earlier, but as also discussed those reliability issues can be moderated by keeping up your maintenance. What ever way you go just enjoy what you have ;)

To answer your first question......YES!!!

And what are you talking about, you sound like a porn star with all this inch talk.:wacko:

Firstly and again point out where i said that i'm against lift kits? I said that i'm not a fan of it, cause frankly, i do not see a need for it in Range Rovers due to the fact that you can adjust the suspension when and where needed that's all. Maybe in other 4WD's i.e Toyota Landcruisers or Nissan Patrols i can see the need for one cause they do not have the luxury of adjustable suspension straight out of the box, let alone a lot of the underbody components that hang below the chassis line that ends up being scrapped when heavy duty off-roading. With Range Rovers (and not just P38's) the clever designs have ensured everything underbody is well tucked above the chassis line. When off-roading, i found the only real thing that scrappes is the diff, therefor a diff guard will do nicely.

Secondly, who says that the standard high suspension setup is unpopular? i've never heard of that from a single Range Rover enthusiast that i've spoken to, it may be unpopular to you but certainly not to the majority. Sure Arnott III springs are an improvement, but wouldn't go as far as saying that they're essential when going off-road, and the standard suspension handles the terrain just fine. Also understand this, Range Rovers are 4WD's after all not sports cars and they naturally sway more than cars therefor you need to allow for that. There's nothing wrong with softer springs either, as believe it or not, that alone increases the vehicles off road capability due to the better suspension flex and constant ground contact of the wheels, and your driving is what will determine the stability of your Rangie.

So P38oncoils, please don't get upset from all this, cause i get the impression that your simply looking for a debate, and that's fine, that's what forums are for, and we're just at odds with opinions that's all. But like i & others have said before........it's your choice!! Do as you please!!!!

[p38oncoils]

So P38oncoils, please don't get upset from all this, cause i get the impression that your simply looking for a debate, and that's fine, that's what forums are for, and we're just at odds with opinions that's all. But like i & others have said before........it's your choice!! Do as you please!!!!

Thank you redandy3575, wayneg, serbastion, Keithy P38, RR P38, Gippslander, rovercare, Scouse, PaulP38 and DT-P38 for taking the time to have a chat. I enjoyed the discussion. Attached is a side shot of my vehicle with the illegal lift :o just to put things into perspective ;) I hope to catch up with you guys at some stage on a muddy track somewhere - take care :)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/p38oncoils-albums-p38oncoils-picture3424-border-ranges.jpg

[33chinacars]

LOVE THAT COLOUR :BigThumb::BigThumb:

Gary

[Gippslander]

Here is a couple of mine doing what four wheel drives are built for.:D on the Barclay river Jeep track what a hoot.

[p38oncoils]

Here is a couple of mine doing what four wheel drives are built for.:D on the Barclay river Jeep track what a hoot.

Thanks Gippslander and here is a link to a couple of videos from a day out in the Glasshouse Mountains area earlier this year.

Glasshouse Mountains 4x4 Trip 22-04-2012. (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC5E55C6120D18253)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members/p38oncoils-albums-p38oncoils-picture3443-glasshouse-mountains.jpg

[Keithy P38]

Vids say "currently unavailable" on YouTube!

[p38oncoils]

Vids say "currently unavailable" on YouTube!

I just tested the link now and had no problems in watching them.

[nothofagus]

Im not sure how it can be said that the airbags are not as good off road-(rocky ledges).
Being able to adjust your ride height is a big positive especially if you are on a high speed twisty rd, either on or off road. Lowering your center of gravity at will is a major + in my books.
Load leveling is another thing to consider, when i do a trip away i load up pretty well and i always look to my suspension with confidence when it comes time to drive away all trim.
Heavy trailer with coils looks shocking on coils air bags rule here as well.
Using my rangie most weekends off road still only accounts for a very small percentage of my vehicles time in motion and dont see any advantage in coils off rd.
Sure maintenance is an issue and coils win out here, having said that i dont mind changing out air bags 15 minutes a corner is all it takes......er and $120 a side.
EAS is a great system and i love it.

I agree that air bags have a lot going for them in the areas you note above particularly with keeping trailers level.
As for the maintenance issue changing an air bag is no big deal. Where the problem becomes annoying is when the system shuts down and you have a long trip home on the bump rubbers followed by another trip to the dealers for recalibrating.

An alternative is to disconnect the BC computer and wire it up manually with a number of jump wires. The instructions are on the web. I did this 6 years and 80,00kms ago and have had no trouble with this latter problem. I have 8 switches - one for each wheel, one for the compressor an up and a down and a power switch. It works surprisingly well both on and off road. I jack it up or let it down to suit the conditions. At the moment one air bag looks like it is on the way out and I am able to keep it up manually without overburdening the compressor (about 6 mins is enough ) until I find a new one at a good price. Hopefully I will be able to plug the computer back in and go to a dealer for recalibrating before I sell it.

Has anyone else tried this - I would love to hear of your experience.

[Keithy P38]

I have toyed with the idea of installing an eas ecu bypass switch and an up/down toggle for each bag... Would come in handy if the need to bypass the ecu arises!

Provided there are no major leaks in the system it would prove very valuable!

Keithy

[RR P38]

I agree that air bags have a lot going for them in the areas you note above particularly with keeping trailers level.
As for the maintenance issue changing an air bag is no big deal. Where the problem becomes annoying is when the system shuts down and you have a long trip home on the bump rubbers followed by another trip to the dealers for recalibrating.

An alternative is to disconnect the BC computer and wire it up manually with a number of jump wires. The instructions are on the web. I did this 6 years and 80,00kms ago and have had no trouble with this latter problem. I have 8 switches - one for each wheel, one for the compressor an up and a down and a power switch. It works surprisingly well both on and off road. I jack it up or let it down to suit the conditions. At the moment one air bag looks like it is on the way out and I am able to keep it up manually without overburdening the compressor (about 6 mins is enough ) until I find a new one at a good price. Hopefully I will be able to plug the computer back in and go to a dealer for recalibrating before I sell it.

Has anyone else tried this - I would love to hear of your experience.

I have not gone to the level of complexity that you have. But i do run an inhibit switch that interrupts the power to the EAS ECU.
This reduces the compressor run time to a bare minimum as i only level the RR as required ie at start up.

[nothofagus]

I have not gone to the level of complexity that you have. But i do run an inhibit switch that interrupts the power to the EAS ECU.
This reduces the compressor run time to a bare minimum as i only level the RR as required ie at start up.

Where did you wire in the inhibit switch? Did you have to unplug the EAS ECU to get at the correct wire?

I would like to include an automatic cut out device on mine but it looks too tricky. One of the plugs (no 17 I think) goes to 12 volts when the tank is full of air and cuts out the compressor. This would only be useful for when you forget to switch the compressor off - I have a bright red light to warn me when it is on but I forgot once and the springs jacked up the vehicle like it was ready for the Camel Darian Gap Challenge. I just let it down and it didn't seem to do any harm. Maybe the airbags have some pressure valve that stops them exploding. An inline timer might also do the job - 6 mins seems to be all you need to get enough air for most things like trailer levelling.

I would be surprised if there is no aftermarket device that does all this which plugs into the socket when you pull it out of the ECU. It would have to contain a row of switches and lights similar to mine but finished neatly where your fingers replace the computer. You would think it could be cheaper than the other gadgets - schroeder valve kits, etc.
Anyone heard of this?

[RR P38]

The EAS ECU is under the left front seat.
I just interrupted the power to the ECU ad mounted a switch in the dash where the diesel glow plug switch would be mounted.
From memory it was the purple/red wire.

[Gippslander]

Once again the Technocrats want to take over i am a basic four wheel driver i love to go bush i chose to buy a Range Rover and intend to use it to the fullest, the fact i have coil suspension or not is not the issue going bush is. If people choose to have a technically perfect vehicle does not bother me but at the end of the day i drive mine as i believe it should be, the fact it does not have an air bag suspension is of no concern the fact it goes where i want and the fact it does what i require a four wheel drive does if some people want to espouse the virtues as built is fine but do they get them dirty or is it in their mind ? i don't care i drive it like i stole it and it is great:D

[wayneg]

Once again the Technocrats want to take over i am a basic four wheel driver i love to go bush i chose to buy a Range Rover and intend to use it to the fullest, the fact i have coil suspension or not is not the issue going bush is. If people choose to have a technically perfect vehicle does not bother me but at the end of the day i drive mine as i believe it should be, the fact it does not have an air bag suspension is of no concern the fact it goes where i want and the fact it does what i require a four wheel drive does if some people want to espouse the virtues as built is fine but do they get them dirty or is it in their mind ? i don't care i drive it like i stole it and it is great:D

Where did you get the idea that those of us that have commented in this thread stick to the tarmac? Far from it, I think you will find most like me push their air sprung P38a`s as far off road as you would, probably further with the benefit of adjustable air suspension

[Keithy P38]

I don't like making a habit of popping the air springs in mine, however fun it may be ;-)

I can see where gippslander is coming from - he's not saying no P38 owners take them out and make them work hard in low range, he's saying that there are probably more that don't! It's a status thing (and why not, I look back at pics of mine polished up and parked in a stylish city location under lights and perve), the small majority of us take them out and royally lift wheels and out class the tojo's and 'trolls on the tracks!

I recall watching glenhendry's vids on YouTube, and no offence to the patrol owner, but the P38 owned you!

Either way we all just love our P38's, sometimes!

Cheers
Keithy

[Gippslander]

That is the point we bought the most capable off road vehicle and i am proud of it i managed 9th in the recent Alpine challenge with a two inch lift and 33" tires out of forty vehicles the rest were comp trucks i am wraped we made it. Let alone got a place i was trying to stir some faith in the Range Rover that couldn't due to computers and too bloody sophisticated as compared with Comp NISSANS AND TOYMOTORS There was a shorty ninety driven by Andrew from HILINE Traralgon who manged a second i believe it had four hundred K"S on it at the start and it just went did amazing thing's i was more than happy with the Rangger she did it hard i have virtually no clear coat left but it never faulted. To do the Barclay river Jeep track after the fires is hell let alone the rest of the trip 350KM's and no letup was a trip of a lifetime the trip was well organized and fully catered i am in for next year but one of the other guys is driving his car so i will be either a passenger or a navigator. I believe the Range Rover P38 on a good day is the best off road vehicle to date without all the bull**** electronics that we see and pay for in the rest of the field.:D
Love my Rangger

[parasnoop67]

I run a P38 on tracks all over Tassie, and am running the EAS system and since I replaced a of a faulty height sensor about 2 years ago it hasn't put a tyre wrong.;)
I replaced the airbags standard airbags with Gen 111 Arnotts about 18 months back to get the increased length and softer ride at full height. I have changed the height settings at off road height to gain approach and departure angle improvement but as Paulp38a says, the standard height is the one for best articulation. A set of Bighorn 265/75's makes it a very capable offroader.
For on road use it runs Toyo open country all terrains in 255/65 which are quiet and give better fuel economy. On a recent trip from Hobart to Smithton and return the fuel consumption was 13.2l/100k mostly sitting on 110k's.
I think I get the best of both worlds this way because on highway height with the firm ride that the Arnotts give at that height, the handling is excellent.
This vehicle has done 268000k's and is origional. But it is very well maintained.

[RR01]

I have been a long time advocate of keeping my p38 stock. I have loved the air suspension. The problem is that every 5 years or so i have to spend a couple of grand getting it back into order.
This weekend I went for a drive in my old stomping grounds in the latrobe valley and went places that would need a helicopter to recover the vehicle if it failed.
The Rr performed flawlessly is the bush but on the trip back to melbourne
Came up with an eas fault. I went back to the mechanic to reset the fault to find that there was a slow leak between the compressor and the air tank.
Given the fact that the car has done over 150,000 kms since the last major repair I think that this latest problem will be the tip of the iceburg.
So, coil springs are going in.
Unashamedly I will modify the Rr fit a winch for looks, never needed one before it what the heck.
I will let you all know how he conversion goes.
Cheers