Engineering a 200Tdi into a series 3

[gromit]

I'm looking at a series 3 that has a 2.4 Isuzu motor installed but the flywheel needs to be replaced. The seller also has a 200Tdi motor he would like to sell so I'm considering this as an option if the flywheel proves too difficult to track down.

What sort of hoops will I have to jump through to get it registered in VIC?
I assume the motor change will have to be signed off but is there anything else I might have to upgrade to get engineering approval ?
If it goes onto a Club Permit I still need a roadworthy but do you have to get it engineered ?

Just considering my options because apart from paint & a couple of doortops it's a nice straight S3 which already has LWB brakes fitted. Gearbox needs an overhaul and fitting the 200Tdi shouldn't present too many problems. I'd stick with the Isuzu C240 motor but the flywheel is proving difficult to obtain.

A few more questions....
If going the 200Tdi route has anyone kept the turbocharger on and their Series gearbox & driveshafts survived ?
If the turbo is removed does the injector pump need to be re-adjusted to suit ?
I'm guessing that changing the diff ratios or fitting a high speed transfer box may be on the cards with a 200Tdi ?


Too many projects, too little time............

Thanks,

Colin

[jerryd]

This site is quite informative even though it's a 300 di conversion :)

1980 Series 3 Hybrid in Sweden (http://www.tukojack.com/index.htm)

I'm putting a 300 tdi motor into my dormobile and will be using the original gearbox / overdrive unit after getting it reconditioned. It's a popular conversion in the uk as the engines seem easier and cheaper to obtain.

Nitemare in the uk has done a couple of 200 tdi conversions, have a look through the "other powered landrovers" and you'll find a few threads.

[gromit]

Jerryd,

I get the impression the 200Tdi is the most popular because it's easier to mate to the S3 bellhousing but 200Tdi parts are getting more difficult to obtain.
Installation should be straightforward, it's all those extra costs to get it 'engineered' that worry me...

It'll only be used occasionally so it's difficult to justify the additional $2K the seller wants for the 200Tdi motor....maybe I'll go back & haggle some more.


Colin

[NiteMare]

someone has already mentioned me as having fitted a couple (three so far)...

it's a really easy conversion in either a 2/2a or 3 88" it's also not hard in the 109 but you have to be aware of the deeper chassis rails conflicting with the 200 turbo, chassis can be scalloped to clear, engine and gearbox can be lifted/tilted to clear or my favourite way is to fit a 300turbo to the 200 engine

a standard 200 turbo outlet needs "clocking" to point the outlet upwards if you don't want to cut the inner wing to clear the hoses, this is the only slightly tricky bit of fitting the 200 into a Series vehicle

a fair few folks recommend redrilling and tapping the flywheel housing to prevent flex and the risk of oil leaks from the back of the engine but i've not done this on any of my conversions i've just removed the studs that don't align with the holes in the bellhousing, my first was done 3 years ago on my 88" bitsa, this motor is a daily driver/workhorse and all round hooligan tool and not treated particularly kindly, my first gearbox in that one lasted 18 months and it was already tired, it got sank and filled with water more than once and still driven on, it still works but howls like a banshee in all four gears (probably worn all bearings out along with scrapped the synchros etc') i've since fitted another cheap worn gearbox while i rebuild a nice one that has only lost it's layshaft bearings

my 109 has a delightful 1965 2a gearbox, quiet and slick which i'm more careful of, i'm gentle with the clutch and gentle with the power, i refuse to let it labour and watch my gear timing carefully to keep any stresses to a minimum although i do run with 3.54 diffs in the axles which means i spend a lot of time in third rather than fourth when with other standard Series motors

you really will need 3.54 diffs or an overdrive or an ashcroft high ratio transfer box with the 200tdi or you'll find yourself hard against the redline really easily in all gears (too easily) and you'll be wearing out the engine in double quick time :eek:

i personally like the 3.54 diffs plus an overdrive for distance driving as with a light right foot and this combination you'll return 35/6 miles per gallon (UK gallons) on aggressive 7.50 tyres at 50-55mph (i like the howl of Deestones or General SAGs crossplies)

i personally haven't broken a halfshaft to date but i think the 3.54 diffs protect them

the 200tdi fits really easily on the original chassis mounts using the original Series engine mounts bolted to the block, i use a 3mm thick washer above and below each rubber mount to lift the engine a 1/4" and if the cast iron front pulley is fitted i recommend turning the bigger diameter Vee off completely along with a couple of mm off the front lip to assist avoiding clashing with the front axle when offroading or you'll end up damaging the front keyways on the crank

use a Series alternator mount on the engine block and space it forwards 30mm and the altenator will line up really easily (there is other ways of doing it but this is the simplest to explain and the way i've used)

i used the standard 200 radiator and intercooler in my 88" and cut the frame to suit my fitting, i also used the standard oil cooler lines

in my 109 i used the standard 200 rad' with a cutdown and modified surround and then mounted a TD5 intercooler to the front of that with two small plates cut out of the rad' panel to allow the rad' to sit in the usual position

throw the viscuous fan away as there's not enough space and fit an electric fan, i also cut the threads off the front of the waterpump for extra clearance

exhausts i make myself using scrap pipes from Kwikfit and assorted other fitting shops, 50-52mm bore pipe is ideal, i run straight through exhausts which gives a nice growl without being offensive when on the power or just purrs when cruising (everybody that has heard my exhausts like the sound :D ) but if needs be you could fit a silencer box i don't need to

in my opinion the fitting of a 200tdi into a Series landrover has got to be one of the simplest conversions you could do

p.s.
if you don't use the turbo you'll need a silencer, you also don't need to have the injector pump reset just plug up the boost port where it connects from the turbo (little thin pipe/banjo on top) you also won't have any need of the glow plugs as the 200 is the easiest starting diesel i've ever come across, 3" of ice this winter and it still started on the first turn without heaters :D

oh, and if you go hunt in your local magazine distributors for the 2012 June issue of Land Rover Monthly you'll see my 1965 200tdi'd 109 as the feature vehicle :)

[justinc]

Colin,
I have done both a ser 3 109" and a 2a 109", both using donor Defender 200Tdi's, without intercoolers and detuned. Excellent fuel economy, awesome on road performance, ser 3 was fitted with an overdrive, the 2a with 3.54 diffs.

Great results but not cheap, I'd recommend it in a heartbeat BUT only to a good condition vehicle.

JC

[jerryd]

Jerryd,

I get the impression the 200Tdi is the most popular because it's easier to mate to the S3 bellhousing but 200Tdi parts are getting more difficult to obtain.
Installation should be straightforward, it's all those extra costs to get it 'engineered' that worry me...

It'll only be used occasionally so it's difficult to justify the additional $2K the seller wants for the 200Tdi motor....maybe I'll go back & haggle some more.


Colin

I'm pretty sure both the 200 and 300 tdi's bolt straight up to the bell housing, after drilling some unused stud holes.I think the 200 tdi is easier to fit as it will drop straight onto the original mounts, whereas the 300 tdi needs the engine mounts altering to clear the oil filter assembly. But where the 200 tdi turbo needs tweaking to fit, the 300 tdi turbo is left as is. A lot of people have used the 200 tdi with the defender 300 tdi manifolds and turbo.

I haven't started my conversion yet as I like to drive it as it is :D but the engine is sitting waiting patiently. I really want to get my gearbox / transfer case reconditioned before I start but not sure who to get to do it. Any recommendations ???

I may also make the gearbox cross member a removable item so I can mate the engine / gearbox together before installation and drop it in as one unit.
I'm open to suggestions on which route to take :confused: as I'm only a novice.

I'm going to worry about the engineering once the installation is complete.

[gromit]

Thanks NiteMare, I'd read your thread plus lots of stuff on the interweb. I'll look out for the magazine.....

Justin, was it easy to get the vehicles 'engineered' in Tasmania ? I'm probably more worried about any 'additional work' that needs to be done to get a roadworthy. I'm told that because it's a Land Rover engine going into a Land Rover that's one tick in the right box, emissions have to meet the engine manufacture date so no problem on a diesel but is there anything else. The fact that the brakes have been upgraded already might help ???

Anyone got a 200Tdi or 300Tdi in a Series in VIC that's registered ?

Vehicle comes with a spare transfer box which has high ratio gears.
There's a V8 engined Series on the sellers property with a bolt operated MacNamara rear diff locker, don't know the ratio but maybe the F & R axles out of this are an option....


Colin

[MR LR]

I would talk to an engineer first if you are getting something engineered, apparently they don't look too favourably on jobs that are already donw and i've heard of people from all over Australia who've built this awesome thing, yet can't put it on the road and end up selling it fr a fraction of what it cost to build. Just check first

Cheers
Will

[justinc]

Colin,

The first 2a 109 wasn't an issue as it was done a fair while back, and the ser 3 had boosted brakes and I showed the engineer the on paper Kw output of the 200Tdi vs the 2.25petrol and he said no worries. Just inspected engine mounting mods and all was fine:)
Like Will said above, get permission in principle first, we Had to fill in a few forms, but all in all it is a sensible conversion so they are very happy with it:)

JC

[steveG]

Bill Malkoutzis (Talk Torque Engineering) did my Isuzu conversion and also does a lot of Landy work for Les Richmond Automotive. He's pretty straight up so should tell you quickly whether or not its possible/practical and what its likely to cost for the engineering sign off. Give him a call and have a chat.

Steve

[gromit]

Thanks guys,

I'll continue with the search for a flywheel to suit the Isuzu C240 motor, see what the best price is for the 200Tdi and speak to Talk Torque then make a decision.


Colin

[chazza]

G'day Colin,
i am in the process of converting a S3 109" to a 200tdi; initially I was going to install it and try for licencing but instead I read the WA Transport website and decided to use common sense, for as they point out if a modified car is involved with a fatality the driver is seriously in the poo and in any accident the insurance people don't want to know.

So my recommendations are:
1. Look at the VicRoads website, or ring them and ask to speak to an engineer.
2. Have a look at these links http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/pdf/NCOP3_Section_LA_Engine_01jan2011_v3.pdf
Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 (VSB 14) (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx)
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/pdf/NCOP10_Section_LO_ADRs_ICVs_1Jan2011_v2.pdf
Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 (VSB 14) (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx)
These are the National Standards, which Victoria may, or may not follow - WA does.
4. Once you have received a letter of approval-in-principle from VicRoads you can proceed, safe in the knowledge that it will get licenced, as long as your work is sound and safe and the engineer is happy.
5. Select an engineer - VicRoads might have a list of approved engineers - WA does.
6. Liaise with she/he before proceeding.

With regard to the 200tdi engine; Nitemare pointed out to me that 300tdi parts will fit; such as the exhaust manifold.

Isuzurover discovered that a 300tdi can be made to fit the Rover gearbox.

Wagoo told me how he converted his S2A box to an unbreakable New Process truck box, which solves the gearbox strength issue.

I plan to use a Roverdrive overdrive initially and do Wagoo's conversion when the Rover box karks it,

Cheers Charlie

[gromit]

Thanks Charlie,

I'm probably going to get the little Isuzu working first as it's been registered with this fitted. Power output is similar to the 2.25 diesel.
200Tdi is likely to come later.

I've found that if the weight of the car doesn't increase by more than 10% and the power doesn't increase by more than 10% you don't have to upgrade the brakes. The current owner has used LWB brakes anyway.
I realise an engine change has to be done and signed off correctly otherwise you effectively don't have any insurance cover

Because this is 'just another toy' as the wife put it, I don't intend to throw too much money at it initially but who knows....


Colin

[gromit]

I've been offered a 200Tdi and LT77 gearbox c/w intercooler, air filter etc.
Obviously a stronger box than the Series but how easy to fit ? I also understand that you need the Stage 1 front axle, is this just to get a proper CV joint because it's permanent 4WD ? A Salisbury rear axle might be an option as well.

Hopefully I collect the vehicle this weekend or next. Once the Isuzu is running and connected back up to the gearbox I'll have to make a decision regarding the motor.


Colin

[NiteMare]

i hope the lt77 you've been offered is a defender/90 one as the disco one will put your gearstick in the middle of the centre seat due to the length of the bellhousing

a stage1 axle would be nice as that will allow you to retain the permanent 4x4 but on saying that i know someone that still has a normal Series front axle with an lt77 and hasn't broken anything,remember the problem is reduced being as there's a centre diff with the lt77 (the axle uj's might still "knock/kick" on full lock though, i don't know)

a defender lt77 and lt230 is about 4" longer than a Series box which really requires you move your engine forwards about 2" and have custom length propshafts, you can swap the lt230 for a Series transfer box with an adaptor, you still have to move the engine but you can then retain the original props and selectable 2x4/4x4

it's worth you looking at Ashcroft Transmissions website for more detailed instructions on what can be achieved with the LT77 and 200tdi, lt230 can be modified for selectable 4x4/2x4, Ashcrofts also supply the lt77/Series transfer adaptor

[gromit]

NiteMare,

The engine/gearbox is from a Defender but not sure if I want to take on an engine transplant.
I might stick with the Isuzu or even look for a 2.25 petrol.

Decisions, decisions.....

Colin

[steveG]

200tdi's are reasonably easy to get hold of if you want one, so I'd say stick with what you were planning - get the Isuzu working and see what its like...
By the time you drop in a 200tdi, LT77 change diffs etc you've almost built a County :angel:

Steve

[nickjaxe]

Dont forget its a much easier conversion if you fit the 200 as a di..no turbo,

You do need an old 2.25d exh manifold...but the std exh sys will connect...downward facing pipe,

Thats what I fitted to my S3 SWB..loads of power very good mpg engine bay very simple.

Nick.