Is there any 'intelligence' (like a chip) in a PUMA key? Won't start with Spare Key.

[spudboy]

Here's the scenario on our 2007 110 PUMA:
- Changed battery yesterday
- driven a few times no dramas
- Today, I got out the second key (we are going away for a week - thought it would be good to take a backup key in case original one got lost)
- Tried to start with 2nd key, which it did for about 2 or 3 seconds, then engine died
- Tried restarting a couple of times - but no go
- Thinking at this stage that I have a dud battery connection (due to yesterday's change)
- Got the original key once again - starts no problems
- Tried the 2nd key once again, and now it starts?!?!?

Does the ECU talk to the key at all?

It only looks like a thin plastic cover on the key - so would be pretty surprised if there is any intelligence there (unlike, say, my Range Rover key which is big and fat and probably full of electronics).

Any ideas?

[Drover]

Sound more like an immobiliser issue.

Mine does a similar thing every now and then, fires seems to start for a second and stops. Turn the key nothing, but the dash light are all on.

If I lock it with the button, wait a couple of minutes, and then unlock it with the button it will start.

I think this is what your's is doing. Next time try my fix

Cheers

[Allan]

Sound more like an immobiliser issue.

Mine does a similar thing every now and then, fires seems to start for a second and stops. Turn the key nothing, but the dash light are all on.

If I lock it with the button, wait a couple of minutes, and then unlock it with the button it will start.

I think this is what your's is doing. Next time try my fix

Cheers

Same with mine about one a year, very odd. The force is in them (Ford):D:D.

Allan

[dullbird]

with our normal set of keys if the car is left unlocked for a period of time and then we hop in to start it the car will immoblise itself, you can not start it.

while in the car you lock the door with the fob and wait a second or two and then unlock put the key in and it fires first time.

I dont think its a fault I think its meant to do it. there was a service tip out on it sometime ago... we found this out when we had our immobliser issues.

[spudboy]

OK - I have done some more testing.

If I have the original set of keys near the car - it will start, so I've worked out that it is an immobiliser issue.

Trouble is - the 2nd set of keys is just that - there is no immobiliser 'plip' thing that came with them.

Looks like I'll have to get a 2nd immobiliser to sort this out. Wonder why I only got 1 when I bought the car? Is the 2nd immobiliser likely to be somewhere in the car (under the driver's seat or something)? Reckon I got dudded, so will have to buy another as it is well out of warranty now.

Thanks for the comments chaps.
David

[dullbird]

Have you checked under the bonnet Im sure i have read somewhere that they have been placed there before

we were given ours on the second set, you should have a second fob

[spudboy]

You know - I thought there might be another key under the bonet, as I had a vague recollection that my TD5 came with a fob zip-tied to some wiring under the bonnet.....

I have checked with a torch but nothing obvious.

Will have a proper look in the morning. Thanks for the memory prompt.

[spudboy]

Looks like it might have been a common issue: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/91089-spare-alarm-key-fob-110-a.html

[Allan]

I also had an ignition barrel problem with mine, replaced under warrenty. I thought this may have been the cause but it did it again north of Broome. As I said, since I took it in to the dealer and mentioned it, there has been no problem since. I think dulbird has got the answer in that its supposed to do that.

Allan

[jc109]

I believe all the electrickery is in the fob. Provided the fob is near the barrel the key will work. Occasionally (say if I'm surfing or something) I will pull my keys off the keyring and I'll leave the fob under the steering column and take the key with me as it's not prone to water damage. When I jump in it'll start no dramas provided I haven't moved the fob.

[Drover Dave]

Hi all, I think the answer to this thread and Brid's thread "Puma Owners: Non Start Issues" lies in the owners manual on pages 6 and 7. My one month old 110 will not lock or unlock with the second remote and I think I'll have to carry out the Emergency Key Access (EKA) procedure. Brid's initial thread appears to be exactly like a flat battery in the remote and this too has a specific procedure which has to be done whilst sitting in the vehicle and within 5 minutes of commencing or you have to carry out an EKA.
Hope this helps.....let me know how it goes.
David.

[spudboy]

Hi David - I am off to see Land Rover tomorrow to try and get it sorted before we leave.

I've checked all under the bonnet and can't see another remote control (plip thing), so looks like I've been dudded on that one.

Will be interested to see how much they'll slug me for a replacement :eek:

Cheers
David

[Allan]

It is very odd, some have had the start problem only in B.P. service stations, pushed the vehicle out and restart. This happened to mine but no push, full load and boat, old man!!!! The B.P. pump electrics sighted as a cause. It does usually reset as dullbird has posted but I would have it checked. I thought about having it switched out of the system and using an aftermarket set up, just in case but the problem has gone away.

Allan

[MTB]

I have had a plain metal key cut for my Puma a few months ago, which I use every day (the key cutter used a Nissan blank) - so there is nothing under the plastic cover.
Before I go anywhere remote I tend to disable the immobiliser and turn off the alarm using the Nanocom.
Never had any issues so far and don't have to worry about getting the FOB wet or similar.

Frank

[spudboy]

Frank - I have a Nanocom for my TD5 (one of the original 'old style' Nanocoms). Any chance it will plug into a PUMA, or is this only for the updated 'Windows style/graphical' Nanocom?

Be good if I could switch off the immobiliser for the trip and then turn it on again when we get back.

[solmanic]

with our normal set of keys if the car is left unlocked for a period of time and then we hop in to start it the car will immoblise itself, you can not start it.

while in the car you lock the door with the fob and wait a second or two and then unlock put the key in and it fires first time.

I dont think its a fault I think its meant to do it. there was a service tip out on it sometime ago... we found this out when we had our immobliser issues.

That's odd. We often leave our Defender unlocked overnight (very low crime area) but I have never had it immoblise on me the next morning. We also use both our keys (and fobs) and never had issues with one working then not the other - again even after getting into the already unlocked vahicle.

[MTB]

Frank - I have a Nanocom for my TD5 (one of the original 'old style' Nanocoms). Any chance it will plug into a PUMA, or is this only for the updated 'Windows style/graphical' Nanocom?

Be good if I could switch off the immobiliser for the trip and then turn it on again when we get back.

spudboy, I am guessing now; but the TD5 and the Puma both use the AS10 immobiliser, so it should work.

[spudboy]

Had a good result with Solitaire (the Adelaide dealer) :eek:

They said it must have been missed on pre-delivery, and even though the car is 2 years out of warranty, they will sort it out no charge :p Pretty happy with that.

So, new plip on its way. Just have to take the car back to get it all coded when the part arrives.

Edit: They also gave me the EKA code to disable the immobiliser in case we lose the main keys while we are away. Bit of a pffaf to enter it, with ignition switching and door opening, but might be useful in an emergency.

[08Bender]

Just for future reference,

Puma ignition barrel is installed with a transponder ring, this is wired to the imobiliser. Key does not have a chip installed in the plastic casing. This maybe a market requirement, possibly other countries have this component of the imobiliser activated?

Cheers, Tristan

[Alex]

From my understanding, when the transponder receives power, it pulses and tells the remote to send a code (rf) to the anti-theft module which if matching then sends a signal to the instrument cluster. The instrument then tells the injectors and starter system to activate via ECM.

If the remote handset is out of range (or has a flat battery or is interfered with by a BP service station)then no signal is sent. Use EKA (Emergency Key Access) code to disable immobiliser and no pushing required. If you are in a BP service station and someone is waiting for the pump, then you might get honked and abused as a &^%&ing Land Rover driver whilst you open and close the door counting on your fingers.

No electronics in the key, only the fob (fobs if your dealer remembered to give you two)

Also, immobilizer should not arm if key is still in the ignition however when you take it out it should arm 30 seconds after you open the drivers door or after 5 minutes if the drivers door isn't opened. Mine didn't always follow this rule however, occasionally it must have forgotten I had left the key in the ignition and armed itself anyway.

[Didge]

I think all the intelligence is in the key cos it left the factory when they said "design a car that doesn't leak" :P

[Lorryman100]

The keys supplied from LR are just that, keys. The key fob, plip, has the necessary electronics installed to allow the mobilisation of the Puma. So if the AS10 is working fully and nothing has been disabled then you will need to have a key Fob in close proximity to the ignition barrel to allow the transmission of the mobilization code to allow the Puma to run. If this fob is not present then the AS10 will not send the mobilization signal to the EMS and the engine will shut down.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/lorryman100/passiveimmobiliser.jpg

The passive immobiliser works by switching on the immobiliser after a set time once the key/fob is removed. It detects this by using the transceiver coil on the ignition barrel to detect the key/fob. If there is a problem with the passive immobiliser through a fault with the transceiver coil or fob then it will act as if the key is removed by initiating the immobiliser which will stop the engine by inhibiting the starter and fuel injector circuits. The pulsed feed from the 10AS module causes the magnetic field created by the transceiver coil to collapse and restore. The fluctuating magnetic field activates the fob (remote RF handset) to transmit a mobilization code to the 10AS module. The 10AS module receives the fob mobilization code via its antenna. This fob code is compared to a value in the 10AS memory. If the codes match, the 10AS module provides a mobilization signal to the instrument cluster. The instrument cluster acts as a gateway, converting the signal transmitted from the 10AS module into a signal that is recognizable by the ECM (AS10 Serial to Multiplex between the IC and EMS).

Another reason for spare Fobs not working as they should is that they have lost synch with the AS10 unit. The standard value within the AS10 for resynch is set to the value Two. Basically lock and unlock the Puma 2 times with the fob buttons. This will allow a basic resynch of the fob and AS10 unit. If this doesn't work try the it 4 times as this is a full resynch. What has been described by other members in combating a non start issue is basically a resynch by locking and unlocking the car a couple of times to get it to run. If that doesn't help and you have a diagnostic tool like the nanocom or MSV then just do a plip relearn of ALL fobs as this will resynch everything. There are other parameters which can affect the fob working like bad plip keycode allowance and the fobs battery being low.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/lorryman100/MSV2%20PICS/msv10asplipresynch.jpg

HTH Brian.

[Lorryman100]

Frank - I have a Nanocom for my TD5 (one of the original 'old style' Nanocoms). Any chance it will plug into a PUMA, or is this only for the updated 'Windows style/graphical' Nanocom?

Be good if I could switch off the immobiliser for the trip and then turn it on again when we get back.


No, it will not work as the TD5 and Puma use different protocols and the OBD plug is wired differently for the TD5 and Puma.

[spudboy]

I may have mentioned earlier that LR were going to provide me with a new plip. When I took the vehicle in to get it all sync'd up, there was some problem, and it would not work with my old plip when they added in the new one. Then, neither plip would work.

After half an hour they gave up (set it back to just the old plip so I could go on holidays), and I have to take it in again in a couple of days. They want it for a few hours to work out why they can't re-code it as they expected. At least they are providing a loan car this time so I can still get around.