12V - 240V power inverter

[Discovery-94]

Hey guys....

Want to install a 240V socket for charging laptop & camera on trips, has anyone got information for me what I should be looking (out) for?
Have visited a local 12V shop yesterday but unfortunately they were rather useless.
So first thing, do power inverters (not looking at $30 supercheap version...) usually come surge protected?
I'm not planning on running a microwave or A/C on it, but would like to be safe and not damage batteries & chargers & gear obviously, and lastly, what watts would I need for "basic" equipment like that?

Any input as usual highly appreciated!!

Thanks heaps.

[Judo]

It depends on how much you're planning on using it. You get what you pay for with inverters.

There are 2 main types:
1. square wave (cheapest)
2. pure sine wave (most expensive)

You will be told that if you're running digital equipment you need a pure sine wave inverter. I've run plenty of digital sound gear on a cheap square wave one and it's been fine. It depends how "sensitive" the gear is. Charging anything like a laptop, camera battery, etc is fine on either.

So for just charging things, I'd get a square wave one with double the watts you really need. They are cheap and if you run them at near capacity they will die very quickly. So maybe a 300W or 400W one? You should have no problems with one of these for use on camping trips etc. The key is, don't overload it or it will go POP!

I've used a Jaycar 300W one before and it was fine for charging stuff on trips away.

Jaycar Electronics - Search Results for inverter (http://search.jaycar.com.au/search?w=inverter)

If you need a lot of power or you're using it every day, I'm unsure what life you will get from a cheap one. You might need to look into a pure sine wave one or a well known brand more expensive square wave.

I don't think surge protection is really an issue, but I could be wrong.... :angel:

[Blknight.aus]

and if you find that a cheap inverter is causing your switchmode power supply stuff to not start, fart about or cause the inverter to alarm then plug in an old school double adaptor and an incandescent bulb thats rated to about 10% of the inverters normal out put rate.

[bee utey]

Surge protection is more-or-less built in to the output voltage regulation. "Square wave" or modified sine wave will happily run switchmode equipment. They will overheat anything with an iron core transformer on the mains side of a power supply. So on principle, as inverters are pretty cheap, get a 300W or bigger sine wave inverter. Many don't have stand-by mode so once on, they draw a few amps just to keep the output live. These will run the tiniest device without any trouble.

If you want a "real" inverter, buy a Selectronic one. They weigh heaps but are massively over rated. I have a 400W rated one in my car which will run a household pressure pump for 10 minutes or more without fuss. (When our mains power goes out I can have a hot shower using car battery power for the pump)

The 1000W Jaycar sine-wave one I have just squeaks in alarm if I try the same trick. It's a total wuss in comparism. The 400W Selectronic will run a 4" angle grinder or 600W drill too, handy on a power-out day.

[Judo]

Surge protection is more-or-less built in to the output voltage regulation. "Square wave" or modified sine wave will happily run switchmode equipment. They will overheat anything with an iron core transformer on the mains side of a power supply. So on principle, as inverters are pretty cheap, get a 300W or bigger sine wave inverter. Many don't have stand-by mode so once on, they draw a few amps just to keep the output live. These will run the tiniest device without any trouble.

If you want a "real" inverter, buy a Selectronic one. They weigh heaps but are massively over rated. I have a 400W rated one in my car which will run a household pressure pump for 10 minutes or more without fuss. (When our mains power goes out I can have a hot shower using car battery power for the pump)

The 1000W Jaycar sine-wave one I have just squeaks in alarm if I try the same trick. It's a total wuss in comparism. The 400W Selectronic will run a 4" angle grinder or 600W drill too, handy on a power-out day.

That's a serious inverter!!

Agree with your comments and has made me realise what I actually meant to recommend is the Jaycar 300w or 400w MODIFIED sine wave inverter. Not a square one. :)

[Discovery-94]

Fantastic. Just the sort of advise I was after...
although I must admit, I didnt really get the double adaptor and bulb trick, but hey, handy to know, maybe I will encounter a life threatening situation where it will be helpful :angel:
Sorry, but I'm really just venturing off into the world of electronics (colourful cables and stuff)...

Cant seem to find "selectronic" power inverters... typo?

Anyways, what do you guys reckon on these two babies here?
option one - sine wave 1500 - 3000W for $139 sounds alright to me... about what I wanted to invest, but is it scarily cheap compared to for example a redarch 1500W one for over 1000......??

Sine Wave Power Inverter - 1500W / 3000W (12V - 240V) Cooper | buyster (http://www.buyster.com.au/asp/show_detail.asp'sku=NEW1370&refid=FR49-NEW1370)

or option two - can't make out whether its a sinewave, but it also has a USB port and comes in a nice "dust resistant" (at least thats what it looks like) case... but its "only" 750W

Sacheto.com » Product Catalog » PowerDrive RPPD750 750-Watt DC to AC Power Inverter with USB Port and 2 AC Outlet (http://sacheto.com/1062610/?utm_source=froogle_au&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=product&lang=au)

Any of these brands better than the other - or more/less well known?
Oh, and what does 50HZ frequency mean? Have seen some with 60HZ.. anything I should know there?

[Brad110]

The second option you found is 110 volt.

[bee utey]

Selectronic: google it:

Selectronic Australia Pty Ltd (http://www.selectronic.com.au/inverter/ld/index.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/270.jpg

1500W is overkill for charging electronic stuff, it will waste precious battery power while idling. 300W is ample. Any cheapie inverter will probably do, but Jaycar have a bit of local warranty backup.

Check ebay, there are about 2000 listings for "power inverter".

Pure Sine Wave Power Inverter 300w / 600w 12v - 240v | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pure-Sine-Wave-Power-Inverter-300w-600w-12v-240v-/270859893490?pt=AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f1081faf2)

If you are mainly charging laptops etc get a small inverter, if you really want to run big power tools get two inverters, one for each job. Take the big one for those trips where you must microwave your porridge, but be warned, you need a really big inverter for that! (or a real one as mentioned).

[Hoges]

If by chance you were to be pulling 500W through the inverter, don't forget that this means 40+ amps being drawn from the battery... What's more, you need to be very sure that in the event of an accident there won't be stray 240V making life even more unpleasant :eek:

[Discovery-94]

Selectronic: google it:

Check ebay, there are about 2000 listings for "power inverter".




... I know, thats why I am asking all these questions.... Too much choice for me with too little knowledge to make a decision.

Emergency preparation is a VERY good point, thank you. However from my understanding they have a power switch, right? So that would make them safe when switched off, yes?

Because I did actually plan on mounting it under the glovebox, was going to make a little shelf where I can store the laptop and have the inverter plus socket secured to it, but obviously don't want to get my passenger into trouble, should I re consider and rather have in the back somewhere?

Re power tools - most of mine are makita cordless, and I think I can refrain from taking that hammerdrill (or microvawe for that matter) on a camping trip ;)

The only thing I was considering taking at some stage is my iMac, since I am a photographer/retoucher and had been thinking about taking my work out of the office, but then again, I might get a decent laptop when it comes down to it...

So to sum it all up, all I want to do is charge laptop & batteries, however want the inverter to be as safe as possible for me and my equipment.
The 300W sinewave from ebay sounds like the way to go at this stage - just one more question, how many "devices" should I be plugging in at the same time? Or be safe and go one after the other.

Thank you so much for your patience people... :twobeers:

[bee utey]

The usual thing with multiple devices is to add up their input power ratings, so long as they add up to less than the inverter capacity you should be fine. However based on safety keep the 240V section close to the inverter, IE no long runs of extension cord. The inverter should be fed in a direct way from your main battery, a manually operated circuit breaker of around 70 amps should suffice to isolate it:

Marine Auto RV's 12V 70A Circuit Breaker Manual switch reset Surface Mount | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Marine-Auto-RVs-12V-70A-Circuit-Breaker-Manual-switch-reset-Surface-Mount-/200756355290?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ebe02e0da)

[RR P38]

I have a 300w inverter from Jaycar.
It doesnt like running my macbook pro charger for too long if my Mac battery is nearly flat it runs ok if the battery is charged and you keep the inverter on.
1.5 amp AC current draw at 240V.
To be on the safe side to run a lap top charger i would suggest a 450W inverter or possibly a 600W.

[Judo]

I have a 300w inverter from Jaycar.
It doesnt like running my macbook pro charger for too long if my Mac battery is nearly flat it runs ok if the battery is charged and you keep the inverter on.
1.5 amp AC current draw at 240V.
To be on the safe side to run a lap top charger i would suggest a 450W inverter or possibly a 600W.
Good to know.


To run the various many electronic devices we end up taking with us, I actually built my own direct DC setup.

It seems rather inefficient to go: 12v battery -> 240v inverter -> DC laptop power pack (between 12v-19v). Both the inverter and power pack are unlikely to run at more than 80% efficiently. So a lot of power is wasted!

I have a 60W DC variable voltage regulator with a dial and LCD screen to show voltage. Turn the dial to adjust output voltage to 7V-30V. Plug in DC device skipping all power packs and inverters. :) 60W is enough to run laptops, where as using an inverter you need 300W+ rated converters.

For fun we also have xmas lights (not flashing) that come with a DC power pack and about 15m of lights. I cut off the power pack and we hang them all around the camp site for ambient lighting. :D They create enough light to show all the ropes and poles and stuff you trip over... Plus you can see the campsite from a mile away!!

[Discovery-94]

a manually operated circuit breaker of around
70 amps should suffice to isolate it

great! noted.



I have a 300w inverter from Jaycar.

It doesnt like running my macbook pro charger for too long
good to know indeed... but is a 600W really the answer or does it suck too much power



I have a 60W DC variable voltage regulator with a dial and LCD screen to show voltage. Turn the dial to adjust output voltage to 7V-30V. Plug in DC device skipping all power packs and inverters. :) 60W is enough to run laptops, where as using an inverter you need 300W+ rated converters.

oh dear...... another option to look into. And I thought I was so close to making a decision ;)
but it actually sounds interesting - especially considering I don't have a dual battery set up as of yet and again, just intend to keep those batteries going.
so how did you hook up the voltage regulator? same as an inverter - battery one end, socket the other? (excuse my electrical half knowledge :o)

[Judo]

oh dear...... another option to look into. And I thought I was so close to making a decision ;)
but it actually sounds interesting - especially considering I don't have a dual battery set up as of yet and again, just intend to keep those batteries going.
so how did you hook up the voltage regulator? same as an inverter - battery one end, socket the other? (excuse my electrical half knowledge :o)

I bought this kit (although I swear mine is 5A). You have to solder this kit together by the way...

FK809 Variable Voltage Regulator (http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=384)

You connect this directly to your car battery, and your laptop/whatever directly to the output (after setting correct voltage!). I.E. You don't use the laptop AC power pack at all.

The trick to most regulators (including this one) is they can only reduce the voltage. By itself, this kit will give you variable voltage 0-12V. If you want 12-30V range of voltages, you need to feed in a higher input voltage. For that I bought this:

DC/DC Converter Regulator 12V Step Up to 24V 5A 120W | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Regulator-12V-Step-Up-24V-5A-120W-/300608197914?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item45fda5151a)

And that's my solution! Rather complicated compared to walking into jaycar and buying an inverter, but I like building things. :D

[EchiDna]

or buy one of these (or similar):

0.7" LCD 100W Universal Laptop AC/DC Power Supply with 8 Connectors (AC 110~240V/DC 12V) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme (http://www.dealextreme.com/p/0-7-lcd-100w-universal-laptop-ac-dc-power-supply-with-13-connectors-ac-110-240v-dc-12v-55167)

Camera batteries, gps, phones etc can be charged via USB which can be simply integrated into the car or via a cigarette lighter socket charger

- my first post in about a year! too long since my landy moved... but it is happening... slowly!

[Judo]

or buy one of these (or similar):

0.7" LCD 100W Universal Laptop AC/DC Power Supply with 8 Connectors (AC 110~240V/DC 12V) - Free Shipping - DealExtreme (http://www.dealextreme.com/p/0-7-lcd-100w-universal-laptop-ac-dc-power-supply-with-13-connectors-ac-110-240v-dc-12v-55167)

Camera batteries, gps, phones etc can be charged via USB which can be simply integrated into the car or via a cigarette lighter socket charger

- my first post in about a year! too long since my landy moved... but it is happening... slowly!
Wow that's cheap for what it does... For that price, I'd sure give it a go!

[Judo]

Wow that's cheap for what it does... For that price, I'd sure give it a go!
Upon searching ebay, something like this could work too:

100W laptop Power Adapter Car Charger Dell Asus Lenovo | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/100W-laptop-Power-Adapter-Car-Charger-Dell-Asus-Lenovo-/110635432874?pt=AU_Laptop_Accessories&hash=item19c262bbaa#ht_7095wt_938)

Cheap, but is it cheap for a reason.... :angel:

[malleefowl]

I have been trying to source an inverter to run my 240v induction cooker.

As there is no gas flames etc it would be ideal to use in the camper.It is 1800 watt highest setting so thinking one of those 1500-3000 type would be ok.
It is excellent and will boil a full billy of water in6 Mins.Would mainly be used for short periods of time,the morning coffee and toast or poached egg etc.
Any suggestions for this set up would be very helpful.
Thanks,
Mary

[Judo]

I have been trying to source an inverter to run my 240v induction cooker.

As there is no gas flames etc it would be ideal to use in the camper.It is 1800 watt highest setting so thinking one of those 1500-3000 type would be ok.
It is excellent and will boil a full billy of water in6 Mins.Would mainly be used for short periods of time,the morning coffee and toast or poached egg etc.
Any suggestions for this set up would be very helpful.
Thanks,
Mary

1800W? :o:o:o

In my opinion you can't run that from a battery. That's WAY too much. It would be like running the starter motor for 6 minutes straight. If the battery is even capable of providing that much power (a cheap one probably couldn't), it would be flat in 6 mins.

Buy a 2kva or 3kva generator.

[peter5111]

I have a cheap, 150W unit from Dick Smith that lives under the drivers seat. It only gets used to charge the netbook / camera batteries etc.

The unit won't start with the netbook power supply attached, but for the number of times it gets used I can live with that.

It cost me $60 I think and gets little use so I can't really offer any reliability advice.

Pete

[Basil135]

...
Because I did actually plan on mounting it under the glovebox, was going to make a little shelf where I can store the laptop and have the inverter plus socket secured to it, but obviously don't want to get my passenger into trouble, should I re consider and rather have in the back somewhere?

:

You have to be VERY careful where you mount things. Under the glovebox is a no-no, it is in an "impact zone". Think of car coming to a sudden stop... Where will your passengers knees / shins hit? :eek:

You could very well make your car un-roadworthy simply by where you mount things.

Always plan for worst case. If you roll your car several times, and I hope it never happens but..., what loose stuff will be flying around?

Make sure anything like inverters, batterys, even fire extinguishers are well secured, and wont do more damage so soft things, like people, if they come loose.


BTW - I just got a new travel adaptor for my work laptop. Was about $100 and will operate from 240v, 12v or aircraft, whatever that may be. Has a stack of different connections, and you just plug the appropriate adaptor in to the socket, and then into the transformer, and away you go. This was for a Dell, but you should be able to find them for most brands.

[stray dingo]

If an inverter was secured behind a trim or similar, how hard/safe would it be to make a outlet on the face of the trim (eg like a Prado has/caravans etc), maybe even with a switch?
would you need to be a qualified sparky?
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/807.jpg

[Basil135]

I would suggest that if you are wiring up 240v, that you will need a qualified electrician to do the work.

Think worst case - if there was a fault in the wiring, and your rig was lost to fire, or worse, someone was injured, then not only are your insurance company going to have a field day on someone, and deny the claim. Then, there is the possibility of charges being filed by the relevant authority for faulty workmanship.

At least if you have a qualified sparky make the connections, you are covered in that regards should something go wrong.

IIRC, caravans that operate of 240v have to be wired by a licenced electrician, so there wouldnt be any difference here.

[justdrinkbeer]

Don't worry too much about the 240V side of things, you don't have an electrical connection to earth (like the earth stake at home) so you won't get a shock to earth.
You can stick your finger in the Active pin of the socket and not get a shock.

As for fire, you will have more chance of the 12V side causing fire drawing 50+++ Amps, also, as above its electrically isolated so it won't short to the metal structure of the car anyway

[incisor]

you should never use a square wave to charge something with lithium or nickel batteries.. eg phones and laptops etc etc as they tend to screw the control electronics built in to the units.

been heaps of warnings put out about it over time.

modified sine wave if your tight, pure sine wave if you have the dosh.

the average laptop uses 95w at most generally speaking.. there are exceptions but not many.

[stray dingo]

a caravan is covered by "As3000 - Wiring Rules" as a 'home', but a car not directly. I'm fully capable of doing the wiring (stage lighting tech in a past life), but yeah, I'd probably get a sparky mate to sign off on it so to speak.

But you don't see any reason it couldn't/shouldn't be done like that??



(Justdrinkbeer - thankfully my fat little fingers won't fit in the socket anymore, but even so, I'd probably rather not try :D:D)

[EchiDna]

you could use a short (maybe VERY short) extension wire to do the same job...

or mount the inverter with the sockets showing through a cutout in the trim panel...

[justdrinkbeer]

Once you start bonding things together (electrical bonding means connecting things together electrically, not with glue) you start getting a whole lot more dodgy,although i'm a sparky by trade i'm not 100% as i've not been involved with wiring a caravan before, but I'd say connecting to mains power would be the reason for wiring to AS:3000.

I ran 240VAC into the cab from my inverter in the tub, just made sure it was mechanically protected along its length.

The problem you will encounter using standard domestic type GPO's etc is that the screws will come loose with corrugations etc, maybe locktite will work.

A manufactured extension lead (come with moulded plugs, nothing can come loose) is probably the best bet.

And yeah, my stubby little fingers only get into strife when they're holding something i'm poking in a powerpoint!