Holden Series 3 starts but wont restart

[Jimmy]

I've got a 186 Holden powered Series 3 GS. It only gets driven every couple of weeks so the battery is always a bit low or flat. The problem is that it usually jump starts ok and then runs but once stopped it wont restart. The starter motor fires fine but it slowly drains the battery. The last two times it has stopped after about 2mins when i'm taking the jump leads off and just wouldn't fire again (despite the starter motor).

fuel pump seems ok ticking away, and theres fuel in the filter.

ideas would be great.

cheers
jim

[bee utey]

Take the air cleaner off. Too much fuel (flooding), too little fuel (starving), too little spark (coil not producing enough power without the jumper leads on), water in the distributor cap (remove, inspect inside for condensation, clean, dry, don't use WD40, use a soft cotton rag), all easy things to check for.

[Jimmy]

Ok, dizzy is dry, engine turns over strongly (on jumper leads as battery us now flat) but no fire. How do I tell if it's flooded it starved if fuel? And if starved why would it suddenly be like this? It has a strongberg single throat carb, which does look a bit sooty.

The other thing is it won't roll start, but maybe because the battery is flat?

[bee utey]

Flooded: fuel pours out of the carby main jet inside the air cleaner inlet and leaks out around the throttle shaft.

Starved: There is no fuel being squirted by the accelerator pump when you operate the accelerator.

Have you actually checked for spark? Remove the high tension lead from the coil, insert a scrap of wire and arrange a gap to the engine metal of around 6mm. Look for a good strong spark while you are cranking. Do not touch the coil or wire while doing this of course.

Look at the ignition points, is there a white deposit around the contacts? Points are the most basic form of ignition system and require regular maintenance and replacement. New points and condenser perhaps.

[g2landyman]

Hi I had a ser 3 that did this also but and I dont know why, as soon as 7pm started this is what it would do, at first it would burn the points out ???? it did this all the time so I fitted electronic ignition from a commodore then after 7pm would not start you would run the battery flat all the time ????? get a jump start fire's up straight away???? I learnt to go where I need before 7pm:D
I was wondering if you are getting a full 12vollts to the coil? Its possible ignition key may not be suppling 12v to coil some cars do this protect dissy where as I think holdens like to have full 12volts
regards G2

[bee utey]

Hi I had a ser 3 that did this also but and I dont know why, as soon as 7pm started this is what it would do, at first it would burn the points out ???? it did this all the time so I fitted electronic ignition from a commodore then after 7pm would not start you would run the battery flat all the time ????? get a jump start fire's up straight away???? I learnt to go where I need before 7pm:D
I was wondering if you are getting a full 12vollts to the coil? Its possible ignition key may not be suppling 12v to coil some cars do this protect dissy where as I think holdens like to have full 12volts
regards G2

Stock Holden points ignitions have a reduced voltage to the coil while running, there's a ballast resistor built into the wiring harness. The coil is clearly marked "12V use with resistor" underneath. If one of these coils is fed with a full 12V it will fry the points pretty quickly. For full 12V operation a non-resistor coil must be fitted, or a ballast resistor wired into the circuit.

The electronic distributors off the VC-VH Commodores are a good conversion, they are common on ebay.

[bobslandies]

Stock Holden points ignitions have a reduced voltage to the coil while running, there's a ballast resistor built into the wiring harness. The coil is clearly marked "12V use with resistor" underneath. If one of these coils is fed with a full 12V it will fry the points pretty quickly. For full 12V operation a non-resistor coil must be fitted, or a ballast resistor wired into the circuit.

The electronic distributors off the VC-VH Commodores are a good conversion, they are common on ebay.

An even more spectacular result of using a Holden coil that should be used with a ballast resistor only on 12V is that the coil will eventually overheat, blow the insulated top off the metal casing and spray BOILING OIL all over the engine. When you are trying to figure out what is the problem and you have your head in the engine bay (which will of course happen) is not a good time.:o:o

Definitely check that out! A Holden and similar Kettering system ignitions have a 12V wire from the START position that activates the Starter and supplies a greater voltage to the coil and as as bee utey has said a resistance wire is incorporated into the wiring harness to the coil also.

In a Land Rover fitted with a Holden motor you MUST fit a Ballast Resistor to use a Holden or other coil meant to Start on 12V and Run on the reduced voltage.
Not recommended to just use a 12V Land Rover coil either because of the points being burnt.

Bob

[wrinklearthur]

I would try another 12 volt coil first, then scruff another condenser and give that a try as well.

Check all the gaps of the points and plugs.
.

[clubagreenie]

+ 1 for probably a resistive coil and non resistive wiring. S3 would be non resistive, RRC's for instance had the wiring as the resistive point (black/purple by memory). Other systems have the resistor as a thick coiled piece of bare wire under a ceramic insulator (that still gets damm hot) thats mounted on to the coil bracket. If (and I don't recommend, just get a Bosch GT40 coil not GT40R (resistive) you need a resistor try ms50 to ms112 toyota crowns at the wreckers. Just get a non resistive coil and run straight 12volts.

[Jimmy]

Flooded: fuel pours out of the carby main jet inside the air cleaner inlet and leaks out around the throttle shaft.

Starved: There is no fuel being squirted by the accelerator pump when you operate the accelerator.

Have you actually checked for spark? Remove the high tension lead from the coil, insert a scrap of wire and arrange a gap to the engine metal of around 6mm. Look for a good strong spark while you are cranking. Do not touch the coil or wire while doing this of course.

Look at the ignition points, is there a white deposit around the contacts? Points are the most basic form of ignition system and require regular maintenance and replacement. New points and condenser perhaps.



there is some white deposits around the contacts inside the Dizzy cap. Maybe this is my problem? Maybe a new Rotor arm thing. thoughts? I guess poor contacts mean intermittent firing. I'll try cleaning these or replacing tomorrow and let you all know.

incidentally all new leads and spark plugs only a few months ago. points seem good but I'll re-check them.

Thanks everyone else for there comments.

Jim

[bee utey]

White deposits around the cap contacts are quite normal. Just scrape them off occasionally (like every few years) and replace the cap if the contacts are totally worn away.

You really need to work out the actual coil/voltage details of the vehicle's ignition system, it will never be good unless they are all correct. Undo the coil and look at the writing underneath. Can you rig a small test light to the coil positive with the other wire to earth? Any small 12V globe will do. You should see a bright light with the points open and a much dimmer light with the points closed. This is of course with the ignition on.

[Jimmy]

I opened the dizzy again and noticed that the centre pin (not sure whats its called but where the lead from the coil attaches) does not spring back and seems to be caught pushed in (when viewed from inside the cap). Would this have implications?

Points were also new a few months ago, so they are fine (as far as I can tell).

There is a slight greasy/oily residue inside the base of the dizzy but very very limited amounts.

[g2landyman]

Ok now I remember balast resistor on the holden's haha I did try all this on series 3 but all ways kept on burning out the points which is why the the change to complete electronic assy but I never cured the no fire after 7pm:eek: it was allways no probs during the day just one of thoughs mystery's that I never had with my holdens :D

[geodon]

James, it's dead easy to check if your coil is working.

Unhook your HT lead off the dist, hold it about 5mm off an earth then with the ign ON, unhook the LT the wire that goes to the distributor and touch it on a earth. Each time you do it, you should get a fat spark.

My 2A has a 186 & has a GT40R coil so it needed a ballast. It was much cheaper to buy a generic ballast resistor rather than a new coil (about $10 vs $40).

This is a good link to explain ign system checking:


Car Ignition Coil Testing - YouTube

If that doesn't do it, there are about a dozen others that may explain it better!

[Jimmy]

James, it's dead easy to check if your coil is working.

Unhook your HT lead off the dist, hold it about 5mm off an earth then with the ign ON, unhook the LT the wire that goes to the distributor and touch it on a earth. Each time you do it, you should get a fat spark.

My 2A has a 186 & has a GT40R coil so it needed a ballast. It was much cheaper to buy a generic ballast resistor rather than a new coil (about $10 vs $40).

This is a good link to explain ign system checking:


Car Ignition Coil Testing - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQhVRxjxuuQ)

If that doesn't do it, there are about a dozen others that may explain it better!


Stupid question time, but which is the HT and LT leads?

Cheers

[geodon]

Sorry James! That's a valid question!

LT is Low Tension. These are the thin wires. The coil has two:

+ve is the wire from the ign switch (via a ballast resistor if applicable)

-ve this wire goes from the coil to the distrbutor points.

HT is High Tension the big fat wires. These carry the charge to make the sparks at the plugs. Every time the points open & shut, the -ve wire gets earthed & a spark goes along the HT wire to the middle terminal of the distributor then via the rotor to the spark plug that's meant to fire.

Watch that video. If that's not clear, search YouTube fpr "how ignition Systems Work" etc.

[Jimmy]

I'm still having no luck getting it going, but if the coil is dead would now be a good time to upgrade the ignition system? I've heard you can put electronic ignition on the old 186's to make them better. What does this involve and is it easy to install?

[geodon]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/holden-powered-series-land-rovers/146084-electronic-distributor-setup-advice-please.html

ELECTRONIC DISTRIBUTOR FOR EH HR HT HG HK HQ HJ HX LC LJ HOLDEN 173 179 186 202 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ELECTRONIC-DISTRIBUTOR-EH-HR-HT-HG-HK-HQ-HJ-HX-LC-LJ-HOLDEN-173-179-186-202-/251077647172?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a7564db44)

HOLDEN 6CYL COIL IGNITION LEADS ELECTRONIC DISTRIBUTOR | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110845990563)

[Homestar]

Just for clarification, the spark from your coil will happen when you break the earth, not when you touch it to something - like when the points in the dizzy open - the collapsing magnetic field on the primary (LV) side of the coil induces a high voltage in the secondary (HT) side.

[MuckUte]

I'm still having no luck getting it going, but if the coil is dead would now be a good time to upgrade the ignition system? I've heard you can put electronic ignition on the old 186's to make them better. What does this involve and is it easy to install?

It't fairly simple,
Have a look HERE (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/holden-powered-series-land-rovers/146084-electronic-distributor-setup-advice-please.html)