Front mounted A Frames

[goingbush]

Does anybody still use A frames for hooking two vehicles together to essentially make an 8x8 like we used to do in the old days,
tho they were usually used for bringing a broken truck home more often than hard 4 wheeling .

I remember a lot of club trips list of gear included solid tows & wheelchains but never see them nowadays

like on the front of this
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/1087.jpg

Just about every car in the CCJC had one fitted !!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Don't know about Queensland or Victoria, but in NSW the RTA made it almost impossible to use them.

The A frame had to be an approved type from an approved manufacturer, the attachments on the towed vehicle had to be engineer approved. It also needed to be able to couple and uncouple at any alignment between the vehicles.

The attachment on the towing vehicle had to be engineer approved and the combination of tow vehicle, A frame and towed vehicle had to be engineer approved for the particular vehicles (not substitutes) and certified for weight limits GCM etc.

Then if the towed vehicle weighs over 750 kg the brakes on the towed vehicle had to be operated by the towed vehicle or coupling and if the towed vehicle weighed over 2 tonnes over-ride brakes from the coupling was insufficient and the brakes had to be operated from the drivers position of the tow vehicle with a breakaway function that would automatically apply the brakes and hold them on for 15 minutes.

You could have an operator in the towed vehicle to operate the brakes. See: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_41_-_guidelines_for_a-frame_towing_nov_2007.pdf

[goingbush]

Ok thanks, wow , no wonder they have become extinct.

[Tank]

That would be if you were towing on the tarmac, but it would be possible off-road if no one was around. I know that road rules apply off road (except private property), but it would be a good way of getting a couple of less well equipped vehicles through a tough spot. A couple of Lockers would be better though, Regards Frank.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I don't think the RTA ever considered the off road use, but yes they can be usefull to negotiate obstacles but coordination is still needed between the two drivers. Having a driver in the towed vehicle will negate lots of the approval requirements and I would far prefer an A frame tow than a rope tow.

[123rover50]

Not the same but we often used a solid bar with a single tow point each end. Did the same job but the driver of the towed vehicle had to steer. Not like the A frame.
I thought the Army still use the single point ones.
Didiman

[MR LR]

Arthur had one on his 2 door Rangie when they did the Simpson dessert, he built it himself, but never used it, so they never put it on the car again. There are distinct advantages, but the coordination required would be massive i would think, thats why a lot of people just use standard recovery gear and fit lockers, would definitely help with momentum, but you'd be flat out mounting it to a modern 4wd and it would have to come off on the road for airbags etc. the only vehicles that could have them now are really the Defender and Land Cruiser as well as older cars. i think people just invest more in the cars and on't need them as much, not to mention a lot of people tow now so their use would be negated.

Cheers
Will

[goingbush]

I remember towing a bloke home from a LROCV trip that had a slipping steering arm on his relay box. (Series 2A swb) . All the way from Licola to Melbourne, There wasn't much co-ordination needed He could just sit there with his arms folded but he would also put his foot down to help us up hills & use the brake if he thought I wasn't stopping fast enough. He did mention it was the fastest his Landy had ever gone

Driver co-ordination is not an problem at all like it needs to be on a rope.

I have used them, I just wondered why they had gone out of fashion.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

No I was talking about coordination whilst in soup, it is possible for the driver of the following vehicle to counter steer to the direction of travel of the front (steering) vehicle and effectively act as an anchor. It is also possible for the rear driver to apply too much power and jack knife the combination.

On highway towing, you are correct the rear vehicle follows without steering input from the towed vehicle.

I have always wondered if you could acquire one of the Army "A" frames designed for the Land Rover and used it on ex-army Land Rovers which have the appropriate connections would the RTA consider it "Engineered"?

[MR LR]

I don't have a lot of knowledge in the area and am only going off what i've read, but i believe a lot of the military gear is not complianced for use by the public, this would probably include things like A frames, there was talk about some of the Perenties not being complianced, which is why i assume that may be the case. I don't think anyone would have a prblem with you using them offroad though, are they ging to try and follow the 'train' of Land Rovers in their Ford Rangers? Don't think so, its getting there that is the prbolem and the laws on protrusions from bullbars

[goingbush]

I don't have a lot of knowledge in the area and am only going off what i've read, but i believe a lot of the military gear is not complianced for use by the public, this would probably include things like A frames, there was talk about some of the Perenties not being complianced, which is why i assume that may be the case. I don't think anyone would have a prblem with you using them offroad though, are they ging to try and follow the 'train' of Land Rovers in their Ford Rangers? Don't think so, its getting there that is the prbolem and the laws on protrusions from bullbars

Hey Will, sorry for the confusion, this has nothing to do with Army, its not a Perente in the photo, I don't think the Army lets them drive up trees.
Its my old Hybrid Series2 / 90 , just happens to have a chopped up Army Bullbar on it. Im not sure they even used A frames in the Army ???

[Hymie]

One of our work Defenders has a Hayman Reece receiver in the Bullbar with a solid tow bar bolted underneath the bullbar.
All we need to do to make an 8 wheel drive is fit a clevis into the receiver of each the vehicles, insert the solid bar and off we go.
Gear changing is coordinated over the UHF.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I don't have a lot of knowledge in the area and am only going off what i've read, but i believe a lot of the military gear is not complianced for use by the public, this would probably include things like A frames, there was talk about some of the Perenties not being complianced, which is why i assume that may be the case. I don't think anyone would have a prblem with you using them offroad though, are they ging to try and follow the 'train' of Land Rovers in their Ford Rangers? Don't think so, its getting there that is the prbolem and the laws on protrusions from bullbarsWot a lot of rubbish!

Perenties are ADR complianced and carry a compliance plate.

It is the sort of thing people guess at or believe the urban mythology and it keeps getting sprouted over and over again.

Military equipment is over engineered and not under engineered because it will be used by soldiers.

[Blknight.aus]

got one and use it occasionally

[Old Farang]

Showing my age a bit here :D, but I recall the late Les Richmond organising a Simpson Desert trip with the RROC of Victoria, whereby all participants vehicles had to have provision to attach a fixed single tow bar to both the front and rear of the car. At least one bar was carried with the group, and the reasoning was to be able to recover any car that suffered a major failure and needed to be towed out. :wheelchair:

[Bushie]

I used to have one almost identical to the first pic, acquired it along with 2 sill tanks for my rangie back around 1987. Never used or fitted it, and gave it away probably 10 years ago.


Martyn

[p38arover]

I drove past a WWII Jeep last week that had an A-frame. I noted it had a canvas cover around each of the frame members. If I see it again, I'll take a pic. It is a local vehicle.

[alien]

I belive the "can't tow over 750Kg without brakes" thing comes into play.
How ever I've have seen 2 recently in Victoria.

1 was on a Land Cruiser ute bull bar.
It's used to tow the ute behind a harvester with an exemption due to speed.

The other behind a bus to a small Holden panelvan.
50mm tow ball on the bus and 2 cleave pins on the van.
An over-ride cable has been fitted to apply the brakes when needed.
It's all approved by Vic Roads.

[MR LR]

I belive the "can't tow over 750Kg without brakes" thing comes into play.
How ever I've have seen 2 recently in Victoria.

1 was on a Land Cruiser ute bull bar.
It's used to tow the ute behind a harvester with an exemption due to speed.

The other behind a bus to a small Holden panelvan.
50mm tow ball on the bus and 2 cleave pins on the van.
An over-ride cable has been fitted to apply the brakes when needed.
It's all approved by Vic Roads.
We were looking about trying to set up an on-road A frame for one of the veteran cars to tow with the Disco, but as its only got mechanical drum brakes on the rear wheels its never going to happen unless we tow it with a truck, so then the D4 came along hahaha

[p38arover]

At the LR 60th, there were vehicles that had been towed to Cooma by an A-frame attachment.

[Utemad]

I see it often here with Vitaras being towed behind motor homes. Sometimes with light bars sometimes using the towed vehicles lights.

[pohm66]

Yep utemad, quite a few out there being towed by the nomadic types. To fully comply with the ADRs etc they need to have their electronics for the lights indicators wired up to accept trailer plugs as well as a special braking system set up. Spoke to one couple on our travels and I think cost them about $3000 to have it all installed.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

We were looking about trying to set up an on-road A frame for one of the veteran cars to tow with the Disco, but as its only got mechanical drum brakes on the rear wheels its never going to happen unless we tow it with a truck, so then the D4 came along hahahaWill

One of the systems marketed by Winnebago fits an air electric compressor in the tow vehicle and has a bellows fitted to the towed vehicle's brake pedal. The cable/over-ride systems also link to the brake pedal So braking is applied directly to the braking system irrespective of whether it is hydraulic or mechanical. On later types with vacuum boosters on their brakes the real problem is supplying a source of vacuum to the tow.

However with Arthur's veteran and vintage cars, I'd personally not be happy with them running and possibly getting damaged on the highway. I also understand that Arthur supports the whole axle assembly on special stands so the wooden spoked wheels are off the trailer deck when they are towed?

Diana

[alien]

I found this older thread link while searching the good oil (looking for some transfer box links).
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/trailers-vans-campers/70850-frame-towing.html

[MR LR]

Will

One of the systems marketed by Winnebago fits an air electric compressor in the tow vehicle and has a bellows fitted to the towed vehicle's brake pedal. The cable/over-ride systems also link to the brake pedal So braking is applied directly to the braking system irrespective of whether it is hydraulic or mechanical. On later types with vacuum boosters on their brakes the real problem is supplying a source of vacuum to the tow. This is one possibility, however the variations in all the cars would render it too expensive, and basically pointless, as well as they massive forces needed for mechanical brakes to actually work. HOWEVER, the main problem is that on most of the veteran cars the foot brake is a transmission brake (just like the handbrake on a LR), the rear drums are actually connected to the hand brake, this is why the levers are so big and cumbersome, and the reason dad gave up on the flat towing idea.

However with Arthur's veteran and vintage cars, I'd personally not be happy with them running and possibly getting damaged on the highway. I also understand that Arthur supports the whole axle assembly on special stands so the wooden spoked wheels are off the trailer deck when they are towed?

Interesting you mention that, dad's theory about flat towing them was to relieve the stresses that are acting on one part of the wheel when it's on the trailer, as in it is more structurally sound going along the road spinning as it wouldn't be concentrating the loads as much. Not sure about the axle stands on trailers bit though, i've never seen Dad or Fafa use them on the trailers, but they've been around a lot longer than me so anything's possible :)

Diana

Hi Diana

Please see the comments above, when dad looked into it he saw the whole thing as 'too hard' and the benefit would not be great enough. The advantage of the trailer is that a disabled vehicle can still go on (steering/axle etc failure). So we just continue to tow them on car trailers and always will :) i would say. (until someone makes it illegal haha).

Cheers
Will :)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Diana

<snip>..., when dad looked into it he saw the whole thing as 'too hard' and the benefit would not be great enough. The advantage of the trailer is that a disabled vehicle can still go on (steering/axle etc failure). So we just continue to tow them on car trailers and always will :) i would say. (until someone makes it illegal haha).

Cheers
Will :)Hi Will

Maybe it wasn't Arthur, but his name was definately mentioned in relation to the same discussion of floating wooden spoked vehicles (I seem to recall it was about going over to Perth).

Mind you it cant just be standard workshop axle stands. the stands have to be very stable across the trailer and fore and aft , preferably secured to the trailer deck. The axles then need to be secured onto the stand or to the deck with a design that prevents the axle bouncing out of the stand.

In relation to floating things, its interesting that very few truck based horse floats have bogey rear axle assemblies, the theory is that multiple axles increase the number of shocks transmitted to the horse's legs increasing the risk of injury. Using that theory, I wonder if the ideal car float for a veteran or vintage vehicle with wooden spokes would be one with duals wheels on a single axle instead of a tandem assembly?

BTW: Many years ago, probably about 1974, I assisted with the recovery of a Rover P2 or P3 saloon from a wreckers yard in Bathurst to the dealership when it was on the corner of Cambridge St and Forest Rd Penshurst. Do you know if that car was Arthur's or for someone else?
Diana

[MR LR]

Hi Will

Maybe it wasn't Arthur, but his name was definately mentioned in relation to the same discussion of floating wooden spoked vehicles (I seem to recall it was about going over to Perth).

Mind you it cant just be standard workshop axle stands. the stands have to be very stable across the trailer and fore and aft , preferably secured to the trailer deck. The axles then need to be secured onto the stand or to the deck with a design that prevents the axle bouncing out of the stand.

In relation to floating things, its interesting that very few truck based horse floats have bogey rear axle assemblies, the theory is that multiple axles increase the number of shocks transmitted to the horse's legs increasing the risk of injury. Using that theory, I wonder if the ideal car float for a veteran or vintage vehicle with wooden spokes would be one with duals wheels on a single axle instead of a tandem assembly?

BTW: Many years ago, probably about 1974, I assisted with the recovery of a Rover P2 or P3 saloon from a wreckers yard in Bathurst to the dealership when it was on the corner of Cambridge St and Forest Rd Penshurst. Do you know if that car was Arthur's or for someone else?
Diana
Hi Diana

Yes it sounds like something he would think up or propose :) i've seen it done before, whereby the axle stand was actually bolted to the trailer and then had a steel strapping over the axles with the whole vehicle thoroughly lashed down with ratchet straps, worked well.

I've also seen some seriously dodgy stuff on the internet such as pirate4x4.com where they just sit them on hardwood sleepers and tie them off, not good.

It would be ideal if the wooden spoked (and even wire wheeled) cars be floated for really long trips, but terribly inpractical, especially the 'high wheelers' (some know them as buggies).

Dad just sent an AX Renault over to Perth (wooden wheels) on a car trailer behind his cousins old D2 that he sold to some people doing the 2012 Across Australia expedition. No problems there, but it was tied down in a way that the forced on the wheels were straight up and down (not sideways like i've seen some people tie them on).

Cheers
Will