Car falls off hoist, workshop holds car until paid

[p38arover]

An interesting happening in WA mentioned on the Whirlpool forum:


A guy I work with took his Landrover in for a service. The dealer dropped it off the hoist & it is likely a write off as it landed on the roof & side. After 2 weeks of inaction from the desaler he calls his insurance company but the dealer won't release the car to them until the $1500 service is paid for.
What course of action should he take?

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm't=1928958

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/986.jpg

[Tusker]

I would have thought that a $1500 service would be enough to write an FL1 off...

Regards
Max P

[digger]

I'd call the ombudsman first!

Is this business part of a chain or is it an authorised dealer etc? If so contact te office etc and tell them whats happening.

2nd, I'd report the damage to Police, tell them you want this damage reported.

Mention the fact that after servicing the car they damaged it so severely that its a write off.

(I'm assuming they finished the service after this damage otherwise why was it on the hoist? -if the job isnt finished then he shouldnt have to pay...? )

Call the local TV / newspaper / radio and the headll them, name and shame
maybe even the good old park outside the business and make a flyer up explaining factually what has happened, include that photo, then hand that to anyone entering their business, purely as a community service :)

I reckon today tonight or "raisin love tryst " (a current affair ) would love this 'dodgy dealing mechanic' stuff and jump at the opportunity.


Now prior to doing all this tell the mechanic that these are your current considerations, is it really worth all this grief when you and he know he will be paying out the cost of the car and he hasnt completed his end of the bargain/deal..
*- if he did complete the service prior to the damage the car shouldnt have been on the hoist
*- the car should have been kept safe... dodgy hoist/bad loading isnt your responsibility
*- if they did finish bthe service after the damage then they are fools and again shouldve known to stop.

*- maybe he should make some enqs as to his rights to have a replecement (eg hire) car during the time this dispute is on?, they have caused this delay and therefore are likely responsible to compensate him for the cost of transport in the meantime?

hopefully this mechanic will realise its time to swallow that debt ...

a photo of the front of the prems would be nice :twisted:

[frantic]

Are there people that stupid to demand payments when they wrote the vehicle off? This sounds like a story ACA. an today tonight would love. Here's the headline :Car dealer wants to be paid to write customer cars off.!
Maybe he should try lr HQ. As this would be negative everywhere if it went public.

[RR P38]

Pretty bad case of negligence i would say.
The work shop should have to pay for the damage via their insurance the owners insurance if any will deal with this aspect of the claim.
I guess the workshop is within its rights to expect payment for the service, from a business perspective its not a good look though is it?
Would be better to say sorry and lets get the insurance sorted with a minimum of fuss.

If i was the owner i would be getting onto workcover and alerting them to an incident in a work place for a start, after telling the work shop i was about too.
Pay the service cost and start a small claims court proceeding for damages revolving around lost use of the vehicle.

[incisor]

gold


poor person at the center of it....

[d2dave]

2nd, I'd report the damage to Police, tell them you want this damage reported.

In Victoria if a person is not injured and the owner of damaged property is known, it is not a police matter.

Dave.

[Bigbjorn]

In Victoria if a person is not injured and the owner of damaged property is known, it is not a police matter.

Dave.

Insurance companies insist on a police report number to accompany the claim so report it anyway. Next thing, see your solicitor, and turn up at the dealership with the shyster and a tilt tray to take possession of your property. Make sure you have and use camera and recorder. Formal written notification should be given to the dealership that you hold them solely responsible for all and any damage and costs incurred including a hire car until the matter is resolved. Present them with an account to date to be paid in seven days. If not paid tell them you are about to put them into bankruptcy.

[bob10]

Just clicked on the link in the first post, interesting comments, the workshop is named, as well. Bob

[olbod]

Run a truck over his legs.

[strangy]

Run a truck over his legs.

Nah...he'll do it to himself sooner or later:p

[Sharkee]

Geez I'd be mighty peived off. Not just the fact that they have destroyed your vehicle but the extra inconvenience and stress it causes along with it.
Look I guess nobodys perfect and things sometimes do happen but I think the business could have handled it a little better by, maybe saying to the owner look we are very sorry this happened, lets try to get the ball rolling to get this sorted, but in the meantime I will organise a hire/loan vehicle for you (even for a week or so ) to try and minimise the inconvenience to you. A lot of businesses have signs stating vehicles driven/stored are at owners risk but crikey you expect to get your car back the way you left it. I feel for the vehicle owner and hope a good resolution can be found.

[crash]

. As this would be negative everywhere if it went public.
This story is on 2 internet forums - I think it has already gone public.

[frantic]

I have just read the linked thread and it was not a LR dealer:D but a local workshop who's adress is given about 6 or 7 pages in. WHOOPS! When will this be on ACA?

[incisor]

Just clicked on the link in the first post, interesting comments, the workshop is named, as well. Bob

that could definitely come back and bite someone these days...

[rijidij]

............A lot of businesses have signs stating vehicles driven/stored are at owners risk but crikey you expect to get your car back the way you left it............

Those signs are not worth a pinch of the proverbial !!!!

[Bigbjorn]

Those signs are not worth a pinch of the proverbial !!!!

Exactly. Like the signs at motor racing warning visitors of danger. Not worth the cost of paint they are written with They have a duty of care and can be sued for negligence successfully.

[LandyAndy]

Both my Landies are due for a service,I wonder if he is looking for work???
Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

The service includes a post service test drive.

if the test drive has not been conducted the service is not complete.

at the end of a service the vehicle must be in a roadworthy condition.

if it was me I'd simply stand there and tell them that I will pay the $1500 when that vehicle is returned to me in the condition I handed it over in with the service completed correctly.

as the service goes over reasonably quoted manhours you are entitled to a loaner vehicle untill its done.

[p38arover]

Some on the thread refer to a Mechanic's Lien. Doesn't apply in Oz. I checked with a mechanic I know and he says they cannot withhold the car.

[Blknight.aus]

does apply, providing its an advertised clause in a signed works agreement BUT we dont get to do anything with/to the car other than hang onto it untill the works are paid for.

we can also ask for payment for all anticiapted parts and a percentage of labour up front.

[superquag]

If the geographical data is correct, the workshop is quite close to "The West Australian" ... maybe there's a story there. If not for the print journo's, then p'raps for the hungrier Channel 7 ones...

Wonder if any of the staff get their car serviced there....

[Ranga]

does apply, providing its an advertised clause in a signed works agreement BUT we dont get to do anything with/to the car other than hang onto it untill the works are paid for.

we can also ask for payment for all anticiapted parts and a percentage of labour up front.

Or we can just let them take it and when they don't pay, go retrieve the parts replaced/serviced :p

[Blknight.aus]

yes, I've been known to do that occasionally...

[uninformed]

that could definitely come back and bite someone these days...

Im very ignorant to this???? why can we not speak of bad experiences on the interent? Only good.....no wonder there are so many keyboard heros and wonder gods out there.

Such a joke!

[Sharkee]

Those signs are not worth a pinch of the proverbial !!!!
I'd always wondered on the legalities of them. Whether it covered the business or not.

[Bigbjorn]

I'd always wondered on the legalities of them. Whether it covered the business or not.

There is a considerable body of the common law that says you can't sign away your right to recompense for negligence. I spent two days at a seminar in the early naughties during the kerfuffle over public liability insurance that nearly drove a lot of small sports clubs to the wall. A solicitor gave a presentation and called for questions. One question was on this subject as the asker said his junor sports club had long had one of these signs. He was told this could even have a negative effect if sued as it could be construed that the club knew there was risk or danger and should be even more vigilant.

[OffTrack]

Some on the thread refer to a Mechanic's Lien. Doesn't apply in Oz. I checked with a mechanic I know and he says they cannot withhold the car.


They have the right to do so in Victoria at least.

Car services and repairs - Consumer Affairs Victoria (http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/motor-cars/maintenance-and-repairs/services-and-repairs)


If you cannot pay for the repairs and you have not come to any financial arrangement, the mechanic has the right to keep your car until you can pay. This is called a ‘mechanic’s lien’.

[Blknight.aus]

They have the right to do so in Victoria at least.

Car services and repairs - Consumer Affairs Victoria (http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/motor-cars/maintenance-and-repairs/services-and-repairs)

where the Australian one and the american one differs is that their lien has a time limit on it and unless contractually modified means if you dont pay they get to keep and do what they like with the car to recover costs.

IIRC theres an incident where a company crushed a fairly valuable (not collectable) car over a minor bill that was not paid in time, a banner was made up with the photos of the car being crushed and something along the lines of "to our defaulters, we crushed this one dont think we're not serious about yours" I think that the vehicle belonged to one of "those" customers.

[bob10]

[quote=Sharkee;1698765]oops! wrong quote. try again, Bob

[bob10]

Im very ignorant to this???? why can we not speak of bad experiences on the interent? Only good.....no wonder there are so many keyboard heros and wonder gods out there.

Such a joke!
I think INC. means this could go before the Courts, and anything in print could be litigated against.We have not heard the other side of the story yet.Bob

[Bushie]

Some on the thread refer to a Mechanic's Lien. Doesn't apply in Oz. I checked with a mechanic I know and he says they cannot withhold the car.

Applies in NSW

Repairs and maintenance - NSW Fair Trading (http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Consumers/Motor_vehicles/Repairs_and_maintenance.html)

Signs to that effect in most workshops I've been in.

Martyn

[p38arover]

Ah, that's why I couldn't find it. Not a Mechanic's Lien but a Possessory Lien.

I shall inform my mechanic friend.

[Sharkee]

There is a considerable body of the common law that says you can't sign away your right to recompense for negligence. I spent two days at a seminar in the early naughties during the kerfuffle over public liability insurance that nearly drove a lot of small sports clubs to the wall. A solicitor gave a presentation and called for questions. One question was on this subject as the asker said his junor sports club had long had one of these signs. He was told this could even have a negative effect if sued as it could be construed that the club knew there was risk or danger and should be even more vigilant.
Thanks Brian yeah does makes sense.

[goingbush]

a few of these are on youtube,
must be more common that you would think.

truck falls off lift - YouTube

[101RRS]

Applies in NSW

Repairs and maintenance - NSW Fair Trading (http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Consumers/Motor_vehicles/Repairs_and_maintenance.html)

Signs to that effect in most workshops I've been in.

Martyn


Also says the repairer has to repair any damage caused by the workshop. So owner pays for work and mechanic pays to fix car to original condition.

Garry

[Ratel10mm]

With regard to the lien thing, one of our customers in the UK removed a van from one of his premesis when the tenant went bust, and put it into storage on another of his premesis. This was so he could re-lease the shop as the van was in the only parking space.
Well, the van was leased. Eventually the lease company got in touch with our client to get thier van back. Client says certainly, but first here's the bill for the secure storage of your van. Lease co. decided it was cheaper to sign ownership of the van to our client, so he scored a near new van for the cost of driving it round to where he stored it.
Always thought that was a brilliantly cheeky move. :)

[Sharkee]

a few of these are on youtube,
must be more common that you would think.

truck falls off lift - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjw2gQEBSc0)

Bugger me would not want to be under that

[DiscoMick]

They must be joking! How can they claim they serviced the vehicle if they dropped it off a hoist and wrote it off? Jokers!
Any workshop which damages my vehicle can expect to cop both barrels!
Get a solicitor to serve a letter of demand on them for the replacement of the vehicle. Demand the insurer sue them for replacement of the vehicle. If the insurer won't act, then get the solicitor to threaten the insurer with legal action.
Threaten to publicise the case if the dealer doesn't give a cheque for the full insured value of the vehicle.
Set up outside the workshop and invite the TV cameras.
Screw the so-and-sos!

[tomisawesome]

Hi all, just would like to say a few things after everyone on here has thoroughly voiced their opinions based on a one sided statement....

I know the workshop quite well by reputation, and would have no problem recomending mates and strangers alike in taking their cars there. so when i saw this, and also the thread on whirlpool, i passed it along for them to see. Josh, a member of the workshop, has posted a semi formal reply in the whirlpool thread, which provides a more rounded view of the whole issue.


familiajosh:

I was passed this link by a member of another forum.
Facts have been slightly misunderstood in this thread. There is no denying the vehicle was damaged in our possession, and we have full intention of doing the right thing by your 'friend'. As we have explained to him a number of times.
We obviously have insurance to cover events like these, and we involved our insurer immediatly once the incident had occured.
There has not been 2 weeks of inaction, in fact 2 hours after the accident had occured a claim had been lodged with our insurer as we knew the severity of the incident – and from that date we have been following a series of instructions from the insurer. Photos were with the insurer within 24 hours, and the 2 weeks waiting time has been getting quotes from panelbeaters for repairs, getting letters of demand from the customer, and the request that has started this thread – getting a paid invoice from the customer proving we did the work for him. MTA, and MTA's lawyers have also advised us that getting a paid invoice for the insurers is a legal request
This matter is still being dealt with with insurers, and we have done as much as possible from our end to speed up the process. Anyone thats lodged a claim of significant magnitude or with complicated circumstances would understand a couple of weeks for insurers to respond and get things in motion is not out of the ordinary.
Whilest i appreciate the nature of forums helping each other out, as thats the main reason i also use the forums. This is still a matter to be dealt with one on one with the customer. I personally dont think its fair to be slandering the business name whilest we are still going through due process.
IF, your friend doesnt walk out of this situation with a fair ending for him in regards to the insurance claim. Post away, but untill then id ask members of this forum to understand we are doing everything in our power to give him a fair outcome.
Regards
Josh



and a further reply to questions


At this stage, i dont have much more information to provide in regards to the exact requests and wording of what the insurers have given us and exactly what has been said in phone conversations. As that is not in front of me at the moment. Nor have i been personally involved to that level.
The car was in for numerous things, of which all had been completed and we were doing a courtesey finish off task when the incident occured (irrelevant i know).
Please trust, that we are not a business that goes around doing the wrong thing. We would not have been around as long as we have if we did, we are however trying to work out the best outcome as said above, whilest minimising our losses (to a level) and having the customer walking out satisfied and not feeling like he has to create threads like this.
I will pass this thread onto the business owner
Regards
Josh



it looks to me like the workshop is following the insurance companies instructions in regards to securing an invoice from the owner, and getting quotes. as we all know, insurance companies do not move very fast, and so this would explain the "2 weeks of inaction".

i'll be honest, i am kind of dissapointed at lots of members of this forum going off on their high horses, and making pretty big statements based on assumptions from a one sided story, without waiting for the other side to give their story.

Tom.

[bob10]

Im very ignorant to this???? why can we not speak of bad experiences on the interent? Only good.....no wonder there are so many keyboard heros and wonder gods out there.

Such a joke!
First quote correct, now the other side has been told, are you any the wiser? Bob

[frantic]

Sorry but how hard is it to type PAID or no charge on a receipt and pass it on to the insurance company to get things moving faster rather than chasing the customer whose car you've destroyed to pay a "repair" bill???
What should have occurred : hello Fl1 owner we dropped your car,(insert excuse apologies etc) sign here ,work is now no charge and we have started the ball rolling with our insurance co.
Not the path they are following for the last fortnight.
They may well do good work , most of the time, but it's how they fix their F ups that define them.

[Graeme]

There's no way I would pay an invoice for work said to have been done before the vehicle was presented in pre-damaged condition.

[Blknight.aus]

we were doing a courtesey finish off task

a finish off task?

as in still working on the car?

as in if you're still working on it its not finished?

as in Why the hell would anyone pay you for work you hadn't finished?

a reccuring theme in the whirlpool thread seems to be that a customer pays a mechanic to have his car maintained not trashed...

I might have felt some sympathy for the company if the write off had occured in the parking lot because someone rolled a truck over it or other wise cocked up but falling off of a hoist?

as a mechanic I cant think of a single "courtesey" task that requires you to put a vehicle up on a hoist

[tomisawesome]

a finish off task?

as in still working on the car?

as in if you're still working on it its not finished?

as in Why the hell would anyone pay you for work you hadn't finished?

a reccuring theme in the whirlpool thread seems to be that a customer pays a mechanic to have his car maintained not trashed...

I might have felt some sympathy for the company if the write off had occured in the parking lot because someone rolled a truck over it or other wise cocked up but falling off of a hoist?

as a mechanic I cant think of a single "courtesey" task that requires you to put a vehicle up on a hoist

a degrease after a the completion and testing of a major service, replacing under tray's after a major test drive, take for a test drive and notice a slight wheel balance issue so decide to give it a quick balance..... i can think of lot's of things that will put a car back onto a hoist once a job is all completed.

[Judo]

Sorry but how hard is it to type PAID or no charge on a receipt and pass it on to the insurance company to get things moving faster rather than chasing the customer whose car you've destroyed to pay a "repair" bill???
What should have occurred : hello Fl1 owner we dropped your car,(insert excuse apologies etc) sign here ,work is now no charge and we have started the ball rolling with our insurance co.
Not the path they are following for the last fortnight.
They may well do good work , most of the time, but it's how they fix their F ups that define them.

x2 They can still produce a legal invoice/transaction without requiring the customer to pay $1500. That's what you hear from Nigerian scams! "We can't pay you until you first give us some money"???? Umm not sure about that thanks.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I have been reading this thread and a couple of words come to mind.

slander
defamation

If I were the owner of the F1 or the site owners of Whirlpool, I would expecting a visit from a process server as the workshop commenced a compensation claim for the naming and defamation.

[p38arover]

I have been reading this thread and a couple of words come to mind.

slander
defamation

This thread or the WP thread?

[DiscoMick]

That's all good, but there's no way I'd be paying any bill for work done if they'd totalled my car. I'd just claim on my insurance and sit back and let the insurers fight it out. If any money is owed, it can be deducted from the final payment.


Originally Posted by uninformed https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/768.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/152252-car-falls-off-hoist-workshop-holds-car-until-paid-post1698763.html#post1698763)
Im very ignorant to this???? why can we not speak of bad experiences on the interent? Only good.....no wonder there are so many keyboard heros and wonder gods out there.

Such a joke!


Because we don't a Right to Free Speech, unlike America which has a Bill of Rights.

[justinc]

Hi all, just would like to say a few things after everyone on here has thoroughly voiced their opinions based on a one sided statement....

I know the workshop quite well by reputation, and would have no problem recomending mates and strangers alike in taking their cars there. so when i saw this, and also the thread on whirlpool, i passed it along for them to see. Josh, a member of the workshop, has posted a semi formal reply in the whirlpool thread, which provides a more rounded view of the whole issue.



and a further reply to questions


it looks to me like the workshop is following the insurance companies instructions in regards to securing an invoice from the owner, and getting quotes. as we all know, insurance companies do not move very fast, and so this would explain the "2 weeks of inaction".

i'll be honest, i am kind of dissapointed at lots of members of this forum going off on their high horses, and making pretty big statements based on assumptions from a one sided story, without waiting for the other side to give their story.

Tom.

Too right, getting tired of the 'guilty until proven innocent' open season when events like this are 'threaded' :mad:

Hope it all goes well.

JC

[Sprint]

Untill the vehicles owner has an invoice for ANY work done on the vehicle, he has no claim to damages from the workshop, and as far as the workshop is concerned, they can move the vehicle into the street and claim outright ignorance of any problem.
Once the workshop has issued an invoice (even if its only 0.50c for topping up the windscreen washer bottle) its a legally binding document stating that the vehicle was at thier premesis on a given time and date, but for the workshop to issue even that would be an admission of guilt (insurance companies dont like that!)

From what I've read, the vehicles owner really needs to shut up and be patient while the two insurance companies get thier act together..... The workshop has fulfilled thier responsibilities in filing an insurance claim on thier side, and from the damage in the photo, I doubt the owners insurance company is going to suffer from not having the damaged vehicle in thier posession for a few weeks....

[superquag]

I may have missed something here...

Client takes his car to Workshop to have service performed, the expectation being that he'll be driving it away at the agreed time after paying for said service.

Is this an enforcable 'contract' ? - Seems to be, as in normal circumstances the Mechanic may retain the vehicle if the owner refuses to pay...

Now the Owner is told that he must still fulfill his part of the contract, but the mechanic has varied his part of the contract and the vehicle will NOT be delivered "now", but at an unspecified time in the future.

During this time the Unhappy Owner suffers injury in being deprived of the use & value of his vehicle. Unhappy Owners tend to share their pain...:(

As has been mentioned, handling a stuff-up properly is of the utmost importance... From my reading of both Forums, the Owner has been left "Unhappy" and not been provided with suitable compensation.
If it had, we would'nt be reading this.

[vnx205]

I may have missed something here...

... .... ..
........... .....
If it had, we would'nt be reading this.

The reason we are reading this is because some people's idea of negotiation is to resort to trial by media or trial by internet forum.

Some people seem to think that the only suitable implement for cracking walnuts is a sledge hammer.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

This thread or the WP thread?Mainly the Whirlpool site, AULRO hasn't named the workshop, but the name can be found on Whirlpool from a link on our site.

Remember what happened to the car is not usually a question in a defamation case, the defamation is based upon the naming of the person or company, the fact that the workshop was acting upon the instructions of the insurance company may be used to determine the amount of any compensation awarded.

[101RRS]

But if the claim is basically true it is not defamation - the car did fall off the lift, they are holding the car pending payment so saying this and naming them is not defamation and will get no where.

Whirlpool is used to this sort of thing and it doesn't worry them unlike many other forums.

The defamation thing is a storm in a teacup.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

But if the claim is basically true it is not defamation - the car did fall off the lift, they are holding the car pending payment so saying this and naming them is not defamation and will get no where.

Whirlpool is used to this sort of thing and it doesn't worry them unlike many other forums.

The defamation thing is a storm in a teacup.DEFAMATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL FAULT OR NEGLIGENCE (which has been admitted).

Defamation is an injury to the reputation or character of someone resulting from the false statements or actions of another. In this case, the FL1 owner has made a false statement that the workshop was doing nothing. The workshop had in fact notified their insurance company and provided photographs to the insurance company of the damage. This is evidence that the workshop was infact doing significantly more than nothing and it was the insurance company that was causing the delay.

The defamation would be awarded upon the loss of reputation of the workshop and the financial loss caused by reducton of trade or perceived loss of trade. It may be awarded at a value significantly more than the market value of the FL1.

That whirlpool is used to this type of thing may be true, but how many of the previous occurrecnce did the vendor actually know the issue had hit Whirlpool? The vendor has been made aware of the thread and therefore has a common law option.

[THE BOOGER]

Truth is not a defence in defamation it should be but isnt:( Have a read here the first 4 paragraphs show how defamation is used most of the time then look at defences isp providers do have some defence but even if they win its is still exxy:mad:

https://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html#defences

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Too true Jeff, defamation is an expensive process for both parties and will depend upon how deep the plaintiff's pockets are.

What we should all be aware of is that truth is that our words thrown around for free can have financial consequences in a defamation case.

[isuzurover]

Truth is not a defence in defamation it should be but isnt:( Have a read here the first 4 paragraphs show how defamation is used most of the time then look at defences isp providers do have some defence but even if they win its is still exxy:mad:

https://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html#defences

Not quite true. From your link:

For example, truth alone is not a defence in all jurisdictions. In some, the defendant must also prove that the publication of a true statement or imputation was made for the 'public benefit' (Queensland, Tasmania, A.C.T.) or relates to a matter of 'public interest' (NSW).

[THE BOOGER]

Yes and I would say in the end the public interest would be served by publication but only if both sides were reported but it could still send someone broke defending it :( remember its not automatic to get costs awarded

[101RRS]

I would not believe that any court would uphold a defamation cause on the statement that the customer thought the mechanic was doing nothing.

The tabloid current affairs programs do this sort of thing all the time and are rarely taken to court for defamation.

[superquag]

The reason we are reading this is because some people's idea of negotiation is to resort to trial by media or trial by internet forum.

Some people seem to think that the only suitable implement for cracking walnuts is a sledge hammer.

Agree.

When a walnut is perceived to be surrounded by armour plate ... a little wooden hammer is not the appropriate tool for the job... :-))

Full and accurate COMMUNICATION is the key, the sooner the better.

A good example is a GenSet I recently had repaired. Through mis-communication on their part (partial mis-speaking...) the job ended up TWICE the price it should have been. (approaching 50% of a replacement NEW genset...) It was only lots of immediate, detailed and complete info from them along with genuine apologies from the staff...that the matter did'nt go further. I wasn't 'Happy', but nor was I unhappy.

They will be getting more business from me...

[DiscoMick]

I assume that when the owner booked the vehicle in for work the business gave him/her some kind of statement of the proposed work and the likely cost.
I assume that statement didn't include wrecking the vehicle by dropping it off a hoist. That's certainly a breach of contract.
The vehicle was in good condition when delivered, and is now wrecked. Pretty clear who's responsible for that, which is why the business has called in its insurer. And the owner has reported the wrecking of the vehicle to his/her insurer. That's all straight forward and will get sorted out between the insurers.
So it would be pretty ridiculous for the business to, as reported previously, insist on getting paid $1500 or any amount before releasing the vehicle to the insurer. That's the bit of this issue in contention.
Its the insurer the business is dealing with now, not the owner.
Good luck trying to get $1500 out of the insurer after wrecking the vehicle.

[Blknight.aus]

a degrease after a the completion and testing of a major service, replacing under tray's after a major test drive, take for a test drive and notice a slight wheel balance issue so decide to give it a quick balance..... i can think of lot's of things that will put a car back onto a hoist once a job is all completed.



you degrease a car on a hoist? as a WH+S inspector I love you, wait theres a more important point....

why are you degreasing the vehicle after the test drive and after the service? Shouldnt it be cleaned prior to starting work, after the work is completed before any test drive and then only inpsected after the test drive? if it needs cleaning after a test drive its leaking so its not serviced/repaired properly (unless its a leak the customer has not authorised you to fix)

wheel rotation and balance check is part of servicing and why would you be doing the major test drive with the under body protection off? a quick confirmation drive without them I could buy into but a major test drive, no some modern vehicles rely on the underbody protection to duct air correctly for cooling things like brakes, turbos and exhausts.



if a car has to go back on a hoist the job is in no way completed.

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

Interesting read,I have one question,did the vehicle fall off the hoist BEFORE or AFTER the said service, only an underbody or oil/fluid check would determine that,if before then there is no requirement for service payment.

cheers

[DiscoMick]

I'd question that, as a bush lawyer I must admit.
If the vehicle cannot be returned to the owner in at least the same state as it was delivered to the business, and in fact not even in a driveable and registerable state, then why should the customer pay the business anything? Its the business which wrecked the vehicle and which should be paying out here. Whether the agreed work was done or not is irrelevant if the vehicle was wrecked while in the custody of the business.
For example, say the vehicle was worth $20,000 when delivered to the business. Now that its wrecked it's effectively worth nil. As its a write-off, its worth nil whether the agreed work was done or not. Therefore the business owes the customer $20,000.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I'd question that, as a bush lawyer I must admit.
If the vehicle cannot be returned to the owner in at least the same state as it was delivered to the business, and in fact not even in a driveable and registerable state, then why should the customer pay the business anything? Its the business which wrecked the vehicle and which should be paying out here. Whether the agreed work was done or not is irrelevant if the vehicle was wrecked while in the custody of the business.
For example, say the vehicle was worth $20,000 when delivered to the business. Now that its wrecked it's effectively worth nil. As its a write-off, its worth nil whether the agreed work was done or not. Therefore the business owes the customer $20,000.The business has lodged a claim with their insurance company, The insurance company needs to either repair the car to the condition before falling off the hoist or pay the owner out for the value.

The mechanic, pays the insurance company an annual premium and will likely have to pay an excess for the claim. They still need to be paid for the work attended. The workshop owes nothing to the customer other than arrange for the repairs and open disclosure for the negligence of an employee.

[Blknight.aus]

thats only IF they completed the works before the accident. IF they had so much as to retorque the wheel nuts prior to handing the vehicle over then they have not completed the works requested.

If the work was completed why was it on a hoist?

[tomisawesome]

you degrease a car on a hoist? as a WH+S inspector I love you, wait theres a more important point....

why are you degreasing the vehicle after the test drive and after the service? Shouldnt it be cleaned prior to starting work, after the work is completed before any test drive and then only inpsected after the test drive? if it needs cleaning after a test drive its leaking so its not serviced/repaired properly (unless its a leak the customer has not authorised you to fix)

wheel rotation and balance check is part of servicing and why would you be doing the major test drive with the under body protection off? a quick confirmation drive without them I could buy into but a major test drive, no some modern vehicles rely on the underbody protection to duct air correctly for cooling things like brakes, turbos and exhausts.



if a car has to go back on a hoist the job is in no way completed.

we are all assuming that the car was in for a service only here, however i don't see a $1500 service as normal, so i will assume that the car has been serviced and had extra work carried out. atleast once a month i get a car in that i refuse to test drive prior to carrying out work, for various reasons such as bald tyres, overheating issues, metal to metal pads, etc. I have been known to bring a car in, carry out a safety inspection, fix safety issues, go for a test drive. if i'm going to be putting a car back onto a hoist after a test drive i will leave the under trays off, just incase there is an issue. given my workshop is 5 minutes from a freeway, even a long test drive at 100k's takes 20 minutes so i am not too worried about slight over heating.

what is wrong with degreasing a car on the hoist? provided all EPA guidelines are adhered to (catching all the water and filtering being the main issue, along with PPE while handling degreaser/under the hoist)....

Wheel balancing + rotation is not a part of every service, it is a report and get authority scenario. admittedly if i have just done $1500 worth of work to a car, you better believe i would be making sure that something silly like a wheel balance issue would be done at no charge. not having a go at you, one of the top 5 people on this forum who i read their statements and take as gospel, not just dribbleing crap, but sometimes i feel that you don't take into account all scenarios.

[Blknight.aus]

for a major service I can do $1500 in parts alone and thats before P+H and labour.... with big ticket repairs and overhauls.. I've booked $12k on external supply parts and labor for overhaul

the reason you don't degrease on a hoist (ignoring EPA stuff) for starters is the slip hazard factor (your spraying water over what is an area prone to oil spillage and contamination)then youve got the reduction of visibility from the steam (if you're hot washing) and spray. Then IF you are doing high pressure high temp wash youve got a whole new myrad of safety regs to worry about and then if you decide your going to do that with a chemical added to the mix you bring in hazchem regs and thats a nightmare in its own right.

for a confirm repair drive sure leave the under plates off, I do but its not what Id call a major or final test drive. Once youve put the plates back on and dropped it down it still needs to be test driven if for nothing else than a noise check but to also give you an opportunity to find anything that may have gone west after youve put the plates back on.

lets put this into bread and butter.

if you finish the service, take it for the test drive with the under plates off (unless the customer has specifically requested their removal) you cant hand it back with the plates of, the service (or repair works) is not finished..

Leaving the plates off for a test drive after repair is a false economy at any rate unless you have a reason to believe that the repair hasn't been successful because if the repair has worked you're just blowing out hoist time and labour hours. Its worse for the hoist time (especially in a busy workshop) as no-one can get in on the hoist while you're off on the test drive as you'll have to either hold up your minor job of putting the plates back on (which if you havent means you cant hand the vehicle back) or faff them around getting their vehicle back together enough to get it off the hoist so you can get back on to put the plates back on.

As a younger greaser I used to pride myself on doing exactly what you're describing doing.. I test drove it, I checked it all, cleaned it up rechecked all the critical maintenance check points and then when it was all pretty good and with the paperwork duly chased I put all the plates back on and then parked the vehicle for hand over I had very few customer complaints against work performed. An old salt greaser then showed me a better way.

check it and Clean it before you drive it. put all the plates back on and then inspect it with an endoscope before you put it in the yard. by my best guess it cut my cycle time on vehicle in outs by an hour. same lack of numbers in the customer complaints department and an extra minor service a day....

One of my ongoing hates of dealerships (well some of them) is the audacity to charge to replace the brake pads and then later in the service listing a seperate charge to rotate the tyres. (bonus points if you can explain why)

[frantic]

Lot z a the workshop according to you "may owe nothing to the customer?":o but to most customer service and courtesy are valued. these traits seem totally absent from this workshop with them even admiting that they want to minimise their costs. Having this go further public will not minimise their costs just the opposite. To repeat myself if they had put No Charge or paid on the bill and sent it to their insurer,given them a drive car during repairs, the FL2 owner could well be driving into the wind this weekend(hope all W.A is ok) and this story would get no further than a laugh around the Bbq with friends. Instead it is now in the balloon process where they will lose numerous customers and far more money than the 1500 they are trying to claim in "repairs". The FL owner will and has started rubbishing them to workmates and they will pass it on to their friends and in this age the net.
Now with the wonderful weather W.A is experiencing this weekend getting an assesor let alone time in a repair shop will be pushing the proverbial uphill. I expect them on ACA/todton within a week as news crews will be wandering around W.A's coast.

[tomisawesome]

for a major service I can do $1500 in parts alone and thats before P+H and labour.... with big ticket repairs and overhauls.. I've booked $12k on external supply parts and labor for overhaul

the reason you don't degrease on a hoist (ignoring EPA stuff) for starters is the slip hazard factor (your spraying water over what is an area prone to oil spillage and contamination)then youve got the reduction of visibility from the steam (if you're hot washing) and spray. Then IF you are doing high pressure high temp wash youve got a whole new myrad of safety regs to worry about and then if you decide your going to do that with a chemical added to the mix you bring in hazchem regs and thats a nightmare in its own right.

for a confirm repair drive sure leave the under plates off, I do but its not what Id call a major or final test drive. Once youve put the plates back on and dropped it down it still needs to be test driven if for nothing else than a noise check but to also give you an opportunity to find anything that may have gone west after youve put the plates back on.

lets put this into bread and butter.

if you finish the service, take it for the test drive with the under plates off (unless the customer has specifically requested their removal) you cant hand it back with the plates of, the service (or repair works) is not finished..

Leaving the plates off for a test drive after repair is a false economy at any rate unless you have a reason to believe that the repair hasn't been successful because if the repair has worked you're just blowing out hoist time and labour hours. Its worse for the hoist time (especially in a busy workshop) as no-one can get in on the hoist while you're off on the test drive as you'll have to either hold up your minor job of putting the plates back on (which if you havent means you cant hand the vehicle back) or faff them around getting their vehicle back together enough to get it off the hoist so you can get back on to put the plates back on.

As a younger greaser I used to pride myself on doing exactly what you're describing doing.. I test drove it, I checked it all, cleaned it up rechecked all the critical maintenance check points and then when it was all pretty good and with the paperwork duly chased I put all the plates back on and then parked the vehicle for hand over I had very few customer complaints against work performed. An old salt greaser then showed me a better way.

check it and Clean it before you drive it. put all the plates back on and then inspect it with an endoscope before you put it in the yard. by my best guess it cut my cycle time on vehicle in outs by an hour. same lack of numbers in the customer complaints department and an extra minor service a day....

One of my ongoing hates of dealerships (well some of them) is the audacity to charge to replace the brake pads and then later in the service listing a seperate charge to rotate the tyres. (bonus points if you can explain why)

without a timing belt that requires serious man hours, i do not think i could do a service alone for $1500 on a car. even our minesite fleet that we look after only get $1200 majors every 12 months (hilux's carrying way too much weight, so we replace rear wheel bearings every 12 months, as well as all fluids, belts and pulleys where needed, and atleast 10 globes/holders a service). sure, if you start talking something more heavy duty than a LV you can run up some big numbers.

I have a moto, if you have to worry about a "slippery" floor in a workshop, you don't belong in a workshop. sure, WH&S regs might say contrary, and aunty mavis in theory should be able to walk through the workshop, under the car on the hoist, through the slops from the wash, and to the other side of the workshop to drop off young johny's lunchbox that he forgot that morning, but i do not let her. nobody comes into MY workshop without my permission/supervision. which is kind of hard to explain considering i am a 23yr old employee. i don't hot wash engine bays, and i dont high pressure wash from underneath.

my trick is to carry out the service, road test, then do the courtesy (vacuum, windscreen, tyre shine, service sticker + lube points) with the engine running. 95% of the cars, even with under trays will show a problem with oil leaks here.

the tyre rotation depends on how you view the way a workshop should charge. if i pull a car in, brake check, car needs brakes along with a few other things, hand in my report and finish up the service (inc wheel balance). and by the time im finished the customer hasn't called back/given approval, then i put the wheels back on and finish the job. i cant have my hoist tied up doing nothing. so i then have to bring the car back in later to do the brakes. but yes, if i have the wheels already off for brakes, and the car needs a rotate and balance, it gets it, along with a note on the job sheet for a "special" balance, ie enough cost to cover the wheel weights, but no labour.

tom.

[superquag]

IF a vehicle (during Servicing/repairs) needs an underbody degreasing / washing.. how easy and effective can it done without a hoist or a ramp .
The operator needs to be 'under' the vehicle to do the job, standing on a now wet floor. As a diligent employee, he's done the Risk Assesment, and understands that the floor WILL be wet, WILL be slippery... and WILL take steps to accommodate these unheard-of conditions... The only surprise he should have is 'which' boot is leaking...:(

Even as a non-mechanic, but having access to a 2 and a 4-poster, I'd never choose jacks/stands combo in preference to the ease, effectiveness and ergonomics of a hoist.- Properly used... (added that for the Occ. Health & Safetly clerks...)

Anyway, what's this got to do with the unhappy Freelander owner ? :p

Any updates ?

[frantic]

At a guess id say 1/2 the bill is tyres which if the fl1 is borderline write off they should have already replaced with the old set which would halve the bill. But that is just a guess

[Blknight.aus]

without a timing belt that requires serious man hours, i do not think i could do a service alone for $1500 on a car. even our minesite fleet that we look after only get $1200 majors every 12 months (hilux's carrying way too much weight, so we replace rear wheel bearings every 12 months, as well as all fluids, belts and pulleys where needed, and atleast 10 globes/holders a service). sure, if you start talking something more heavy duty than a LV you can run up some big numbers.

I have a moto, if you have to worry about a "slippery" floor in a workshop, you don't belong in a workshop. sure, WH&S regs might say contrary, and aunty mavis in theory should be able to walk through the workshop, under the car on the hoist, through the slops from the wash, and to the other side of the workshop to drop off young johny's lunchbox that he forgot that morning, but i do not let her. nobody comes into MY workshop without my permission/supervision. which is kind of hard to explain considering i am a 23yr old employee. i don't hot wash engine bays, and i dont high pressure wash from underneath.

my trick is to carry out the service, road test, then do the courtesy (vacuum, windscreen, tyre shine, service sticker + lube points) with the engine running. 95% of the cars, even with under trays will show a problem with oil leaks here.

the tyre rotation depends on how you view the way a workshop should charge. if i pull a car in, brake check, car needs brakes along with a few other things, hand in my report and finish up the service (inc wheel balance). and by the time im finished the customer hasn't called back/given approval, then i put the wheels back on and finish the job. i cant have my hoist tied up doing nothing. so i then have to bring the car back in later to do the brakes. but yes, if i have the wheels already off for brakes, and the car needs a rotate and balance, it gets it, along with a note on the job sheet for a "special" balance, ie enough cost to cover the wheel weights, but no labour.

tom.


not even a proper major service and with nothing exotic like an auto to drive up the bill on fluids or counting disposal fees or those fun add ons

from memory, for a 01td5 defender as part of "thorough pre trip preperation"

4x stub axles
8x wheel bearings
4x lock tabs
4x hub seals
4x rotors
20x flange bolts
complete set of pads
4x brake flex lines
16x shocky rubbers
brake caliper kits
radiator flush and end seal replacement (failed during the wash)
inter cooler flush out
inlet manifold clean out
brake fluid flush
powersteering system flush
clutch slave cylinder
clutch flex hose
exhaust mount rubbers
4x prop shaft unis
serpentine belt
idlers and tensioners
radiator cowl
thermostat
MAF
MAP
silicone hose set
(+ something ele you usually "service" while the induction trunking is off a td5)
4x door seals
vent seals
Fan VC unit
A frame Ball joint
pan hard rod bushes
tie rod ends

I love customers like that and the best part... he turned up with all the parts and instructed cart blanche to order anything else I need to fit on the way in in terms of gaskets/seals but to ring and advise of any single sundry item that was over $50 or if the total of the consumables was likely to go over $1K and would this be achievable within a fortnight if the vehicle was dropped off at the end of the month...

bout the only thing I recall that was over and above was a new CV and drive flange which he opted to replace with MD stuff across the front.

but yes.. the tyre thing...

a certain ford dealership near a border had the cheek to try and charge me to remove the wheels to do the brake pad change and then in the same service cost break down to take the wheels off to do the rotation and balance.

oh+s stuff sucks the bag... the current place Im working got a CAR on them because the 20l tub of industrial handwash had a stick in it. Apparently its an OH+S hygiene breach to have more than one employee use the same stick to get the soap out of the bucket before they wash their hands. Ironically its ok if we all use the same workshop towel to dry our hands after we wash them, If you work out how that works let me know.

[tomisawesome]

oh+s stuff sucks the bag... the current place Im working got a CAR on them because the 20l tub of industrial handwash had a stick in it. Apparently its an OH+S hygiene breach to have more than one employee use the same stick to get the soap out of the bucket before they wash their hands. Ironically its ok if we all use the same workshop towel to dry our hands after we wash them, If you work out how that works let me know.

that list of stuff is not listed in a manufacturer service as being required to be replaced at a pre-set time/km interval. thats what i would consider "repairs", not service work.

and the reason its ok for everyone to use the towels, is because OH+S havn't realised everyone uses a towel to dry their hands. they are a bit slow, but they will catch on eventually when someone slips on a banana peel near the towel dispenser and grabs the towel for support and pulls the machine off the wall which then falls on said person's head and they claim compo. Is it ok if everyone pumps on the same dispenser tho?

[John W]

With regard to the lien thing, one of our customers in the UK removed a van from one of his premesis when the tenant went bust, and put it into storage on another of his premesis. This was so he could re-lease the shop as the van was in the only parking space.
Well, the van was leased. Eventually the lease company got in touch with our client to get thier van back. Client says certainly, but first here's the bill for the secure storage of your van. Lease co. decided it was cheaper to sign ownership of the van to our client, so he scored a near new van for the cost of driving it round to where he stored it.
Always thought that was a brilliantly cheeky move. :)

I'd call it immoral theft myself. Attitude like that is why all those european countries are doing so well???

[350RRC]

One of my ongoing hates of dealerships (well some of them) is the audacity to charge to replace the brake pads and then later in the service listing a seperate charge to rotate the tyres. (bonus points if you can explain why)

Pretty easy, set time / charge for removing wheels included for each job.

On the odd occasion both jobs 'coincide' the punter gets charged twice for wheel removal component when they only come off once.

DL

[Tombie]

I think what is being overlooked here is...

Let's go with - the work was done - and vehicle was coming off hoist at end of job.

The FL now has $1500.00 in bits and time on it since it arrived.

The insurance comes at an excess.

To minimise losses the shop needs the cost to only be the excess. They also want their time and parts paid for under the policy.

I don't think this is unreasonable.

Skuilnaam

[Ratel10mm]

I'd call it immoral theft myself. Attitude like that is why all those european countries are doing so well???

I have to agree with you morally, however if you've ever dealt with one of those British lease companies, you'll know why I thought the story amusing. ;)

I certainly don't think many (or any, possibly) of us AULRO forumites could get away with it.


Re. the above post: I see that Skuilnaam, but perhaps that should be part of the insurance claim?

[Blknight.aus]

that list of stuff is not listed in a manufacturer service as being required to be replaced at a pre-set time/km interval. thats what i would consider "repairs", not service work.


by the definition supplied... (paraphrased)

Servicing is scheduled maintenance and/or preventative maintenance. Preventative maintenance is "work carried out to ensure the reliability of the equipment over its life time"

Repair work is unscheduled maintenance/breakdown maintenance which is "work carried out to return equipment to a servicable condition after a failure"


lets say that you replace a hub seal because you've pulled a hub down to inspect the bearings as part of routine servicing, Replacing the seal is in that case a service item. It wasn't leaking before you pulled it apart and if handled correctly wont leak after its re-installed.

if you replace that same seal because its leaking its a repair action.

dig deep enough into a vehicles nomenclature and at some point you will typically find as part of the servicing schedule "more frequently if operated in arduous conditions" or "at this interval or sooner if advised by your repair technician"

Its because of the latter that legislation that permits the owner of the vehicle to retain ownership of any parts removed from a vehicle that do not indite any specialist safety or HAZCHEM handling requirements (airbags, fiberous gaskets, engine fluids)

[frantic]

For all the people who think the FL2 owner should pay what would you do if you had a $10,000 sketch by escher or prohart and you took it to a framing company to be put in a new custom frame , glazed and mounted that you can secure to your wall so it is harder to flog. You go to pick it up and the framer say's" sorry my assistant spilt a heap of black paint on the artwork and its a bit torn but here is the bill for $1500 and you cannot get your artwork back that we have destroyed till you pay" would you pay????

[tomisawesome]

For all the people who think the FL2 owner should pay what would you do if you had a $10,000 sketch by escher or prohart and you took it to a framing company to be put in a new custom frame , glazed and mounted that you can secure to your wall so it is harder to flog. You go to pick it up and the framer say's" sorry my assistant spilt a heap of black paint on the artwork and its a bit torn but here is the bill for $1500 and you cannot get your artwork back that we have destroyed till you pay" would you pay????


not really the same mate. more acurate would be that they damage it, you/they claim on insurance, it gets replaced, and you still have to pay for the item to be framed. if its not replaceable, then obviously you would get paid out $10 000, and not pay for the framing job. transfering your scenario back to the original problem, would be like them charging $1500, then pushing the car out the front of the workshop and saying have fun.

at this point in time the car has not been written off, so presumably the insurance company wants to fix the car, and then return it to the customer, with this $1500 worth of work done to it.

[THE BOOGER]

If I read the OP correctly and the link to whirlpool the garage will not let the insurance company have/look at the car. My son had a similar thing occur after an accident car was towed to a tow yard they would not let insurance assesor in to look at the car untill the tow bill was paid catch 22 as the towing bill was going throught the insurance company:(

PS: if it was me I wouldnt be paying anything either even asking for the bill to be paid is bad publicity for the garage

[flagg]

as a mechanic I cant think of a single "courtesey" task that requires you to put a vehicle up on a hoist

FWIW a number of times when i've been speaking with my mechanic about the work they have done on the phone, a have asked them to show me how they did something. On at least one occasion they have - after they have finished the actual work - put my 110 back on the hoist ready for my arrival to show me things.

[George130]

After reading this thread.
Yes play nice first.
As for paying ????? Are you kidding!
I would demand they take me for a test drive to prove it has all been done correctly nad while they were at it show me everything the removed and fitted.

Sorry but I would go with not satisfied and not paying to I am.

That said leave it to the insurance co.

[digger]

Sorry but I would go with not satisfied and not paying to I am.


I realise its probably a keyboard jumping back in the sentence as you were typing George, But gee that sounds like YODA has been consulted.. :)

Sorry! :)

[superquag]

hhrrhhmmm... Amused are we...

[DiscoMick]

Outraged, we are. ;)