98 110 Handbrake

[uninformed]

Hey all, I just broke my handbrake on my 1998 110 Defender. Im guessing the cable has snapped??? The handle seems fine, still rachets up and down, the light still comes on and off (clearly only opperated by the handle, stupid design)...

so is there any chance that the drum brake is still engaged slightly?

when I get the chance, what should I be looking for?

If it is a cable, how hard a job to replace?

cheers

[justinc]

Hey all, I just broke my handbrake on my 1998 110 Defender. Im guessing the cable has snapped??? The handle seems fine, still rachets up and down, the light still comes on and off (clearly only opperated by the handle, stupid design)...

so is there any chance that the drum brake is still engaged slightly?

when I get the chance, what should I be looking for?

If it is a cable, how hard a job to replace?

cheers

A bit of a pain, actually. i find it easier to remove the whole backing plate assembly and cable, pull it through sharply from under vehicle after you disconnect the clevis pin at the top, and spray some silicone spray around the rubber outer where it goes through the seat box.

thed hard bit is after fitting it all back up you then have to adjust the cable outer, from underneath and it is hard to reach:mad:

jc

[uninformed]

thanks JC.

I have to diagonse first then fix 2nd. Will it be easier on a hoist or just on ground?

[justinc]

thanks JC.

I have to diagonse first then fix 2nd. Will it be easier on a hoist or just on ground?

more than likely it IS the cable, and yes a hoist is MUCH easier.

JC

[uninformed]

thanks again JC,

when you say adjust the cable outer, do you mean adjust the drum brake in general for the new cable?

what type of screw head holds the drum on?

Sorry for the stupid questions, I leave in the dark and return home in the dark and my truck lives outside with trailer attached.....

any special tools I need?

if it is the cable, do i just replace the cable or is it good practice to replace anything else?

cheers

[justinc]

the cable outer is adjustable, with a stupid 'locknut' as the adjuster . Land Rover Defender Handbrake cable 94 Onwards STC1530 | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-Handbrake-cable-94-Onwards-STC1530-/150563830007#ht_1076wt_908) this is a bit hard to see, but this is the cable you have. the nut end is at the lever end, to adjust you have to get your arms above the transfer case, up under the seat box, or take the centre seat cover out etc.
the other end is self explanatory where it goes through the backing late onto the shoe lever. bit like a car drum brake set up actually.

fit the cable up at both ends first, adjust the drum end up so the shoes just touch, then adjust the cable outer to remove slack, enough until the shoes start to move and tighten the drum. then back off the shoes until they are not touching and all should be fine.

drum is held on by a lrge phillips head countersunk screw.

jc

[uninformed]

so the hard bit is:

"slacken locknut and adjust cable to give the handbrake pawl two notches free movement on the rachet before being fully operational on the third notch (brake shoes are fully expanded against drum.)"

do you agree with the following method for adjusting drum:

Screw in and tighten adjuster bolt until brake drum will not rotate by hand.

Tighten adjuster bolt further to 25nm to ensure brake drum is locked

Slacken off adjuster bolt by 1.5 turns to give brake shoes running clearance.

Check that the drum is free to rotate.

btw im getting screwed on the cable....but then again Im pretty sure my mech is just putting a normal mark up on what he would buy it for....bugger I need it ASAP

[justinc]

so the hard bit is:

"slacken locknut and adjust cable to give the handbrake pawl two notches free movement on the rachet before being fully operational on the third notch (brake shoes are fully expanded against drum.)"

do you agree with the following method for adjusting drum:

Screw in and tighten adjuster bolt until brake drum will not rotate by hand.

Tighten adjuster bolt further to 25nm to ensure brake drum is locked

Slacken off adjuster bolt by 1.5 turns to give brake shoes running clearance.

Check that the drum is free to rotate.

btw im getting screwed on the cable....but then again Im pretty sure my mech is just putting a normal mark up on what he would buy it for....bugger I need it ASAP

that is for the early 200tdi and county model set up, a lot easier:(. your one will be the pain in the rear end adjuster up by the lever. take the centre cubby and cover out you will find it much easier.

yes the drum adjutment method is right, but you may need more than 1.5 turns off if the drum is warped.

jc

[uninformed]

hmmmm, that was from my RAVE CD and in the 300tdi section. It is the part after setting/adjusting the drum. I have a cab/chassis so its a simple middle seat and pop the center cover.

how do I test for shoe/drum clearance by feel?

[justinc]

hmmmm, that was from my RAVE CD and in the 300tdi section. It is the part after setting/adjusting the drum. I have a cab/chassis so its a simple middle seat and pop the center cover.

how do I test for shoe/drum clearance by feel?

just as it sounds, rotate until you just feel them touching.

jc

[uninformed]

Thanks for your time JC, Ill report back on Sat hopefully successful :D

[fesm_ndt]

You may want to make sure your output seal is not leaking or even weeping whilst you are there as the oil leaks into the hand brake drum.

Not trying to create extra work for you, just a looksie as they are are a pita to have to fix when it's not convenient.
If I am not mistaken it is p/n FRC7043

I think a main cause of this is leaving the handbrake on by mistake as the drum heats up the shaft.

Dont forget the piccies, as I got to service my hand brake later

[justinc]

You may want to make sure your output seal is not leaking or even weeping whilst you are there as the oil leaks into the hand brake drum.

Not trying to create extra work for you, just a looksie as they are are a pita to have to fix when it's not convenient.
If I am not mistaken it is p/n FRC7043

I think a main cause of this is leaving the handbrake on by mistake as the drum heats up the shaft.

Dont forget the piccies, as I got to service my hand brake later

FTC4939 is the right one, it has superceded the FRC7043.
yes, agree any oil or stickiness on the shoes will drag and bind the drum. dust is good to see when dismantling these:)

jc

[uninformed]

just had to duck down to Trade Tools to pic up a larger Phillips tip. Turned out I only had #3.... Now my little bolt was loose and the slot was flogged out...bloody ****s me, if its flogged out replace it!!

can any one confirm if it is actually a Pozidrive and not Philips? I can sort of see the 4 extra small slots at the junction of each main slot.....but as I said its flogged out.

Also im guessing #4 is the largest, no #5 available? If my local fastener supplier was open I would replace the bugger with a CSK hex drive bolt....

[fesm_ndt]

Just having a dig around the net and only definitave info is the size on all Models is M8 x 20

Some pages refer to cross tip (I guess phillips) and other flat tip. The photo on Rimmer Bros shows a flat tip type.

As they only hold the drum on the flange and the bolts take all the torque you could use whatever you like as long as its not a really cheap junk screw.

with pozidrive pros:
- from memory they have a deeper slot so are meant to have better grip on the screwdriver

pozidrive cons:
- a lot of people dont know the difference and again from memory the posidrive has a smaller angle on the tip. If you use a normal phillips it dont engage fully and strips the slots

Allen key ones would be nice as at least people can recognise it.

Anyway thanks for the update as I am using your progress to make a list for mine :D

[uninformed]

Philips V Pozidriv

Pozidriv
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/629.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Screw_Head_-_Pozidrive.svg)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/630.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Schnellbauschrauben_Pozidriv_IMGP0880.jpg)htt p://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.20wmf4/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Schnellbauschrauben_Pozidriv_IMGP0880.jpg)
Screws with the Pozidriv head.


The Pozidriv, sometimes misspelled Pozidrive, screw drive is an improved version of the Phillips screw drive. It is jointly patented by the Phillips Screw Company and American Screw Company. The name is thought to be an abbreviation of positive drive. Its advantage over Phillips drives is its decreased likelihood to cam out, which allows greater torque to be applied.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidriv#cite_note-Phillips-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidriv#cite_note-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidriv#cite_note-12) In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI standards it is referred to as type IA.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidriv#cite_note-13) It is very similar to, and essentially compatible with, the Supadriv screw drive.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidriv#cite_note-SupaVsPozi-14)
Phillips drivers have an intentional angle on the flanks and rounded corners so they will cam out of the slot before a power tool will twist off the screw head. The Pozidriv screws and drivers have straight sided flanks.
The Pozidriv screwdriver and screws are also visually distinguishable from Phillips by the second set of radial indentations set 45 degrees from the cross recess. The manufacturing process for Pozidriv screwdrivers is slightly more complex. The Phillips driver has four simple slots cut out of it, whereas in the Pozidriv each slot is the result of two machining processes at right angles. The result of this is that the arms of the cross are parallel-sided with the Pozidriv, and tapered with the Phillips.
This design is intended to decrease the likelihood that the Pozidriv screwdriver will slip out, provide a greater driving surface, and decrease wear.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozidriv#cite_note-Phillips-10) The chief disadvantage of Pozidriv screws is that they are visually quite similar to Phillips, thus many people are unaware of the difference or do not own the correct drivers for them, and use incorrect screwdrivers. This results in difficulty with removing the screw and damage to the recess, rendering any subsequent use of a correct screwdriver unsatisfactory. Phillips screwdrivers will fit in and turn Pozidriv screws, but will cam out if enough torque is applied, potentially damaging the screw head. The drive wings on a Pozidriv screwdriver will not fit a Phillips screw correctly, and are likely to slip or tear out the screw head.





Now from my experience as a carpenter, I see no advantage for Pozi over philips....most the time we are not dealing with a controled enviroment like factory assemebly where both are intended and most screws are made from poo so the pressure used, even on a hand screwdriver is enough to burr out the screw head....Im yet to use a #2 philips in a wood or gyprock and have the driver tip "cam" out and not damage the screw head....

The screw holding the drum on has a very shallow engagement for the philips/pozidriv, which ever it may be.....Now the other thing that could have happend is the opposite, that is the mechanic that last worked on it used a #4 pozidriv in an impact wrench and the drive tip "stamped" the extra 4 small slots in.......buggerd if I know.

M8 x 20 is good to know, atleast I can get one during the week without having drum off...haha

BTW maybe also have some propshaft bolts on stand by, mine arent in the best shape, but once again, sat arvo and im **** out of luck.

[uninformed]

Are the brake shoes left and right handed....one has the leading edge worn more than the other. That is the right side is a uniform thickness, the left is the same thickness on the bottom as the right, but thiner up top. Im thinking if they are universal, to flip them and get some wear away from the tin spot????

[fesm_ndt]

I dont know about swapping the shoes around as from the piccies on this page I wouldn't have thought you could Guide to Defender Handbrake Shoe Renewal | Repair My Landrover (http://www.repairmylandrover.co.uk/defender-repairguides/defender-handbrake-shoes-renewal)

they only have a set part number no individual

note the screws on the webpage,,,,,, both different

[uninformed]

cheers for that. Mine is a different set up, pics to follow. No internal piston, just cable operating cam/lever. Looking at his 2 different screws (mine only has 1mounting screw) his also looks like pozidriv....

got the whole lot off pretty easy. I dont know what LR are smoking but take JC's advise and remove the lot. I cant see how you can easily remove the cable from the brake part insitu....I had to strip it right down to get mine out. No worries wanted to give it all a good clean. Getting the cable off the lever was easy once the shoes were out the way, but pulling the whole lot through a bugger. The little metal collet doesnt want to retract by nature of its design. I ended up wrapping a zip tie around it to compress it so it would pull back through. Once it was half way I snipped the tie. No oil only dust, a good thing.


cable breakage
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=47982&d=1339847955

drum and backing plate/mechanisim off and ready for clean repair
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=47983&d=1339848039

cable tie trick
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=47984&d=1339848157

[uninformed]

I cleaned the shoes and drum with brake clean, the rest just used the canister gun. All bolts and nuts cleaned ready for reassembly. Some uneven pad ware, top of left is thinner than the bottom and both top/bottom of right. 3mm compared to 5mm everywhere else. Now would have been a good time to replace the prop-shaft bolts, which means removing the output flange....but alas no bolts.

what you see when the whole brake is removed:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=47985&d=1339849021

mounting screw I suspect is pozidriv
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=47986&d=1339849098

reassembled ready for mounting
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=47987&d=1339849189

[fesm_ndt]

nice piccies ...... all nice and clean under there, must have been serviced not so long back as springs still have blue paint on them

dont forget to grease your uni joints on both prop shafts whilst you're under there

[uninformed]

dont know why the paint would come off??? it isnt rubbing on anything and would be covered in dust pretty quick :confused:

all grease nipples are done every 5000km at engine oil change....done 1500km ago ;)

[justinc]

good work serg! :D

jc

[uninformed]

Thanks JC,

a few Q's...why would it say to mark the prop shaft and drum for reassembly, before removing (in the Transfercase section)??? It does NOT state this anywhere in the Brake section of RAVE when telling to remove prop shaft :confused:

why would LR say to use sealant Part No. STC 3254 between transfer case mating face and brake backplate???

[justinc]

Thanks JC,

a few Q's...why would it say to mark the prop shaft and drum for reassembly, before removing (in the Transfercase section)??? It does NOT state this anywhere in the Brake section of RAVE when telling to remove prop shaft :confused:

why would LR say to use sealant Part No. STC 3254 between transfer case mating face and brake backplate???

Marking the drum and shaft etc is preventative so LR customers can't come back and complain of a new vibration because the vehicle was reassembled differently I reckon. It is obviously important when working on shafts and especially centre bearing repairs, but to mark the drum etc on a constant 4x4 vehicle where the front and rear output shafts rotate at different rates constantly is a bit retentive. They still have weird vibes at times anyway, from all sorts of OTHER places.:(.

Sealant, I have no idea why as I pull hundreds of these to bits and haven't noticed anything there except some of the backing plate paint left behind...


JC

[uninformed]

Done, lucky I wasnt getting paid by the hour :D

a few things I found:

the hardest parts were the prop shaft nuts....note to self, make sure you have one rear wheel in the air (beginers mistake). Is it possible to get a socket on them??? The other bugger was compressing the wapped washers that go on the pin that locates the right hand shoe and the brake cable lever. You have to push on them to get the top flat washer and C clip on..

Soapy water/dishwashing liquard works well on the big rubber grommet/barb that passes through the heel board.

Make sure you have a spare M8x20 drum mounting bolt if yours isnt in good condition. I now know why it was finger tight.....as it was already flogged out a bit. When I went to torque it up to 25nm I didnt even get that before it stuffed it......now Mr Philps my tip did not cam out before fastner damage :mad:. Ill be interested to see what I can get from my local fastener shop.....

Drum adjustment was done as per RAVE: tighten adjuster bolt until you cant spin the drum by hand. Tigthen further to 25nm. Back off for 1.5 turns. check drum is free to rotate. All seemed ok, but I eneded up nipping the adjuster back up about half a turn at most.....Im about to take it for another short run and will see if drum is hot to touch.

If you have a 110 cab chassis, adjusting the hand lever end of cable is a POP....just take out center seat and center tranny cover, you can reach under and adjust with your hand while sitting in the drivers seat. I did this on my test hill.

Brake shoes look like the could be swapped L for R but I didnt in the end. It was the top left that was worn and you can only flip them one way, which would have put it top right......maybe I should have:confused:

Doing up the prop shaft, after I jacked said wheel up, I found lying on my back I could stop the wheel rotating with my right boot. This allowed me to do them up as tight as I could with my long ring spanner....

Prop shaft bolts = 9/16 (46nm)
Drum adjuster = 17mm (see procedure)
Drum mounting bolt = either #4 Philips or #4 Pozidriv (25nm)
Brake backing plate bolts = 15mm (72nm)

[fesm_ndt]

great info :)

you can get the socket for propshafts from here LAND ROVER DISCOVERY 2 PROPSHAFT TOOL 1/2" DRIVE | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-DISCOVERY-2-PROPSHAFT-TOOL-1-2-DRIVE-/270906551249?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1349ebd1) I buy 90% of my stuff from these guys as very quick and efficient thus far

[uninformed]

Id be interested to see one of those actually fitted on the nut insitu. I have some thin walled ring spanners and they could only go on in one postion....1 out of the 4 bolts is a tighter fit for the tool than the other. Must be the nature of the joint and its angle....

What is the method for removing the actual prop shaft bolts insitu? I can see the big cir clip on the output flange, but im thinking the flange needs to be reomoved to get this off. And from what I can tell you need to to remove the bolts :confused:

What is the pad thickness, when new, on the shoes for this transmisson brake?

[1984V8110]

I know this is an old thread - but it is a good one so I'm hoping I can exploit it to get some advice from the brains trust.

I have to replace the handbrake cable on my 1998 Defender. Uninformed (great name, wish I'd thought of it for myself!) commented earlier in the string that "The other bugger was compressing the wapped washers that go on the pin that locates the right hand shoe and the brake cable lever. You have to push on them to get the top flat washer and C clip on..". In this youtube video at 8:12 and 12:22 or therabouts (Transmission Brake Adjust or Replace? - The Fine Art of Land Rover Maintenance - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch'reload=9&v=TwPAmQtWaH4)) the mechanic uses a tool to solve that problem (I think). Is that a standard tool one can buy or has the bloke cut down a socket to make it? Given that I'm not a great mechanic I'm happy to buy a special tool if it saves time and angst, so can anyone advise me on this please?

Thanks in advance for any advice.


Michael

[Lionel]

I know this is an old thread - but it is a good one so I'm hoping I can exploit it to get some advice from the brains trust.

I have to replace the handbrake cable on my 1998 Defender. Uninformed (great name, wish I'd thought of it for myself!) commented earlier in the string that "The other bugger was compressing the wapped washers that go on the pin that locates the right hand shoe and the brake cable lever. You have to push on them to get the top flat washer and C clip on..". In this youtube video at 8:12 and 12:22 or therabouts (Transmission Brake Adjust or Replace? - The Fine Art of Land Rover Maintenance - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch'reload=9&v=TwPAmQtWaH4)) the mechanic uses a tool to solve that problem (I think). Is that a standard tool one can buy or has the bloke cut down a socket to make it? Given that I'm not a great mechanic I'm happy to buy a special tool if it saves time and angst, so can anyone advise me on this please?

Thanks in advance for any advice.


Michael

I agree that the retaining spring washers are difficult to deal with.

It is strongly recommended that a Toledo 310256 - Brake Spring Compressor, or something similar be obtained to facilitate removal & replacement of these retainers. The tool is quite cheap ($18 approx), & be advised that trying to do the job with just pliers is very difficult & frustrating. If you have a swear jar & do NOT have this tool, at 50c a swear word you will go a long way to paying for the tool by the time you have finished the job!

Cheers,

Lionel

[1984V8110]

"It is strongly recommended that a Toledo 310256 - Brake Spring Compressor, or something similar be obtained to facilitate removal & replacement of these retainers. The tool is quite cheap ($18 approx), & be advised that trying to do the job with just pliers is very difficult & frustrating. If you have a swear jar & do NOT have this tool, at 50c a swear word you will go a long way to paying for the tool by the time you have finished the job!"

Thanks Lionel. That was precisely the information I needed. Aulro membership pays for itself once again!


Michael