Turbo whistle and blow off valve

[rijidij]

After fitting a new clutch and some mods to my gearbox, I went for a test drive with just a short header pipe on the exhaust, about a metre long 3" pipe.
It really exaggerates the whistle of the turbo, and surprisingly, the blow off valve (the original one off the truck motor, not one I've fitted because I'm a flog :D ) goes off really easily between gears.
So, have a listen........Land Rover Isuzu 4BD1T turbo whistle dump valve.mpg - YouTube (http://youtu.be/nJ225SxqDU4)

I'll be fitting the exhaust system back on soon so I don't get the 'looks'......like I give the idiots in their ricers :p

Cheers, Murray

[c.h.i.e.f]

Nice.....:D
Ive been wondering why all my mates 6cyl turbo diesels 1hz(t) , td42(t) 2h(t) have straight through 3" exhausts and if they flog them along under load then back off they make a loud blow off whistle noise that sounds weird but it sounds like it comes from the exhaust side of things so I'm wondering if it's something to do with manifold pressure and a millisecond of gasses passing through the turbine from full load to nothing...I'm not sure as mine does not do that as mine makes other noises :angel:

Also with that factory relief valve I have not checked but can it be adjusted ? I have 2 laying around one off a sd33t and one of the factory 4bd1t not that I think it is needed but would be funny

[c.h.i.e.f]

Although the previous comments may be crap and it may be to do with the wastegate size,type,position in housing etc etc as I think most of the turbo kits are Schweitzer ....

Also forgot to ask did you have a big smile when "hooning" around the streets ? :D

[weeds]

Hi Murray

for us uninform is there a reason you need a blow off valve as i thought the waste gate would do this job?

when i put my 300tdi on a dyno the shop said i needed a blow off valve fitted if i want to run at 15psi.....i couldn't convince the owner that 15 was a factory setting, good thing the young fellow on the floor was happy to look and learn

[Bush65]

Blow off valves are needed with petrol engines because they have a throttle in the intake system that shuts when you lift your right foot.

They serve little purpose on a diesel that has the intake sytem wide open at all times, other than limiting pressure in the inlet manifold (most of us don't want that).

[c.h.i.e.f]

Hi Murray

for us uninform is there a reason you need a blow off valve as i thought the waste gate would do this job?

when i put my 300tdi on a dyno the shop said i needed a blow off valve fitted if i want to run at 15psi.....i couldn't convince the owner that 15 was a factory setting, good thing the young fellow on the floor was happy to look and learn

Not need on a diesel IMO but I'm sure there may be some benefit somehow ....
Nothing a good size wastegate won't do and personally would prefer a external wastegate so that the drive pressure bypasses the turbo all together and doesn't keep pushing the turbo...I'm asuming the relief valve will be tuned in conjunction with the standard wastegate..

[c.h.i.e.f]

Hi Murray

for us uninform is there a reason you need a blow off valve as i thought the waste gate would do this job?

when i put my 300tdi on a dyno the shop said i needed a blow off valve fitted if i want to run at 15psi.....i couldn't convince the owner that 15 was a factory setting, good thing the young fellow on the floor was happy to look and learn

Not need on a diesel IMO but I'm sure there may be some benefit somehow ....
Nothing a good size wastegate won't do and personally would prefer a external wastegate so that the drive pressure bypasses the turbo all together and doesn't keep pushing the turbo...I'm asuming the relief valve will be tuned in conjunction with the standard wastegate to eliminate some sort of problem...

[Benz]

from what I know (and that's not all that much really)

petrol turbo cars have more of a need for a blow off valve because when the accelerator is lifted, it of course closes the accelerator butterfly and causes pressure to build up quite quickly.

where as a diesel simply cuts/reduces fuel input and the air from the turbo is still free to enter the engine (of course less air as the rpm has dropped)

from what I have heard the blow off valves also reduces turbo lag as the waste gate doesn't open as much and the turbo doesn't spool down quite as much.
also less resistance is put on the turbo as the pressure doesn't all of a sudden skyrocket as the accelerator butterfly slams shut (which would also cause the turbo to spool down quicker)

very happily to be corrected if I have some/all aspects wrong.

starting to really like the 4bd1t's
would love to drive/ride in one sometime to see what all the fuss is about

[rijidij]

I know now that a blow off valve is not needed on a diesel, but when I did the original conversion, there was one on the truck crossover pipe, so I thought I better leave it in the system just in case it was important......I've learned a lot about my engine since then.
I never hear it blow with the full exhaust system on.

Cheers, Murray

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/775.jpg

[Dougal]

My one of those would open around 15psi boost. I first tried welding it shut, then just replaced it with a pipe bung.

But finally I replaced that pipe with a bigger section with a bigger radius curve heading into the intake and picked up performance noticably. Looks like you've done the same.

[Blknight.aus]

benz is near enough on the money as to why its fitted.

on rapid upshifts when you can spike the boost pressure with a sudden loss of engine load and loud pedal it opens and bleeds pressure to allow the turbo to stay spun up reducing lag time on reapplication of the loud pedal.

Its normally fitted on engine that are setup with a non wastegated turbo that is specifically matched to the engine, pump and power curve.

[Sea_Dog]

The reason for the blow of valve is to relieve the pressure in the inlet manifold, at full noise the turbo is supplying the engine with a considerable amount of air when you change gear and the engine revs drop the engine no longer requires/can take that amount of air so the pressure in the inlet manifold rises rapidly if aloud to build up to much the pulse created will relieve through to the compressor suction side causing an audible vibration this is known as barking and if this is aloud to occur frequently it can cause damage to the turbocharger the wategate does help as it diverts the exhaust gas around the turbine in turn slowing the turbo down but if the rapid engine deceleration is to quick the turbo wont have enough time to slow down thats why they have fitted a blow off valve in the inlet manifold.

[Dougal]

The reason for the blow of valve is to relieve the pressure in the inlet manifold, at full noise the turbo is supplying the engine with a considerable amount of air when you change gear and the engine revs drop the engine no longer requires/can take that amount of air so the pressure in the inlet manifold rises rapidly if aloud to build up to much the pulse created will relieve through to the compressor suction side causing an audible vibration this is known as barking and if this is aloud to occur frequently it can cause damage to the turbocharger the wategate does help as it diverts the exhaust gas around the turbine in turn slowing the turbo down but if the rapid engine deceleration is to quick the turbo wont have enough time to slow down thats why they have fitted a blow off valve in the inlet manifold.

This valve can't stop that. It's simply a spring loaded 15psi valve. Normal operation in the trucks never sees 15psi.

For us, it's better off gone.

Compressor bark is normally only an issue with big boost on single turbos and big intake piping volumes (to intercooler and back again etc). Stock these ran about 13psi max. The later freefloating turbos only did about 11psi.

[Bush65]

My 4BD1T engine never had one.

I recall commenting on another forum, about removing something that looked much like a blow-off valve, and it turned out to be something else entirely.

[Sea_Dog]

Thats my point exactly the normal boost pressure never reaches 15 psi so why install one, only because when the engine rapidly decelerates it is effectively trying to brake the compressor which inturn results in an increase in pressure if there is enough rotating mass in the turbo the pressure may increase above the 15psi, I work on large marine diesel engines where this is quite common especially when the bridge jockeys change the engine load rapidly I have seen it blow the air filter off the turbo I have had it happen with choked charge air coolers aswell where the restriction in the inlet manifold is too high pushing the boost pressure above what it should be.


This valve can't stop that. It's simply a spring loaded 15psi valve. Normal operation in the trucks never sees 15psi.

For us, it's better off gone.

Compressor bark is normally only an issue with big boost on single turbos and big intake piping volumes (to intercooler and back again etc). Stock these ran about 13psi max. The later freefloating turbos only did about 11psi.

[Bush65]

Thats my point exactly the normal boost pressure never reaches 15 psi so why install one, only because when the engine rapidly decelerates it is effectively trying to brake the compressor which inturn results in an increase in pressure if there is enough rotating mass in the turbo the pressure may increase above the 15psi, I work on large marine diesel engines where this is quite common especially when the bridge jockeys change the engine load rapidly I have seen it blow the air filter off the turbo I have had it happen with choked charge air coolers aswell where the restriction in the inlet manifold is too high pushing the boost pressure above what it should be.
I don't accept your assumption that "rotating mass in the turbo the pressure may increase above the 15psi"

You have to remember that the turbo compressor is a dynamic type and the pressure is a function of the tip speed.

Even if I'm wrong, so what if there is a transient pressure 1.5 to 2 times greater.

I haven't seen one of the valves as found on some Isuzu's, let alone had one apart, but unless it is extremely fast acting, it won't be effective against the pressure pulse wave that travels at the speed of sound.

[Dougal]

My 4BD1T engine never had one.

I recall commenting on another forum, about removing something that looked much like a blow-off valve, and it turned out to be something else entirely.

I think the 4BD2T has a load resistor for the glow-plugs in the intake.

[Dougal]

Thats my point exactly the normal boost pressure never reaches 15 psi so why install one, only because when the engine rapidly decelerates it is effectively trying to brake the compressor which inturn results in an increase in pressure if there is enough rotating mass in the turbo the pressure may increase above the 15psi, I work on large marine diesel engines where this is quite common especially when the bridge jockeys change the engine load rapidly I have seen it blow the air filter off the turbo I have had it happen with choked charge air coolers aswell where the restriction in the inlet manifold is too high pushing the boost pressure above what it should be.

Your marine diesels though will have far bigger turbos and lots more air volume in the intake piping/coolers than we have.

[Sea_Dog]

The pressure must be increasing as you can see in the video from the original post the valve is relieving when he changes gear if the pressure was still the same then that would mean the valve was relieving constantly, I do agree with you that the pressure from the turbo has not increased only the factt that the velocity of air flow which was coming from the turbo at full speed has now been braked by the engine this energy must then convert to pressure energy i also agree that the valve would need to be extremely fast acting to stop the pressure wave but maybe it is enough to reduce the amount of bark as dougal has said the volume of the air charge space may come into it but i can only see that this would only effect the amount of bark and on a small volume system it would still be there but maybe not as pronounced I am not an expert on turbo's and am only trying to understand the anomoly better myself.

On large 2 stroke crosshead cathedral marine diesels this occurs when the revs rapidly decrease as we have a fixed pitch propeller so engine speed is changed to increase or decrease the ships speed, On other vessels where we use medium speed trunk diesels and a variable pitch propeller is used the revs stay constant this allows us to use shaft generators driven off the gearbox constant speed is required to maintain the generator output frequency so when more or less pitch is required to vary the ships thrust the only thing which changes is the fuel rack position but also if there is a rapid reduction in load the compressor will bark my understanding of this is that the exhaust gas flow to the turbine has been significantly reduced and because the charge air pressure in the manifold has remained the same but the turbine revs have dropped the pressure being developed at the the compressor tips has dropped therefore it barks.

I was taught that the inducer in the compressor creates kinetic energy which is then partially converted to pressure energy via the diffuser then the rest is done by the volute casing this would confirm that tip speed is indeed a factor of pressure whereby incresing tip speed increases the gas velocity into the diffuser and volute casing.

I find the topic of turbines extremely interesting :D:D


I don't accept your assumption that "rotating mass in the turbo the pressure may increase above the 15psi"

You have to remember that the turbo compressor is a dynamic type and the pressure is a function of the tip speed.

Even if I'm wrong, so what if there is a transient pressure 1.5 to 2 times greater.

I haven't seen one of the valves as found on some Isuzu's, let alone had one apart, but unless it is extremely fast acting, it won't be effective against the pressure pulse wave that travels at the speed of sound.

[Bush65]

Thanks Sea_Dog. I have to admit that I never watched the video, before reading your last post, because I often don't have much time, and I'm not the slightest bit interested in listening to turbo's whistle. I also re-read rijidij's OP, about the blow-off valve operating during gear changes. I had a few sleeps since that was posted.

So yes I agree that the pressure must rise for that to happen, and the valve must be more responsive than I expected.

There are always transients in the inlet and exhaust systems, which can be difficult to measure without elaborate high quality equipment, and too complex to analyse without the laboratory data and a good understanding of the wave equation.

Another interesting thing, from going back to the OP, the operation of the blow off valve was more noticeable when the exhaust system was removed beyond the down pipe. A situation when the exhaust noise was greater, so the turbine side is having some affect!

Sea_Dog, this part of your post;

I was taught that the inducer in the compressor creates kinetic energy which is then partially converted to pressure energy via the diffuser then the rest is done by the volute casing this would confirm that tip speed is indeed a factor of pressure whereby incresing tip speed increases the gas velocity into the diffuser and volute casing.

is correct except that it is not the inducer (inlet of the compressor wheel), but the exducer (outlet, or outside diameter of the wheel). Also to be strictly correct, the diffuser converts the most all of the dynamic (kinetic) pressure to static pressure.

Air velocity in the compressor wheel reach the speed of sound, when funky things start to happen, and that limits the flow etc. through the compressor.

With the turbochargers you deal with, I would expect the compressors to be axial flow, rather than radial. Just an observation, nothing to do with this thread.

[Sea_Dog]

Found this while I was looking around the other day for some info on variable geometry turbochargers.

Anti-surge/dump/blow off valves[edit]
Main article: Blowoff valve

anti-surge valve
Turbocharged engines operating at wide open throttle and high rpm require a large volume of air to flow between the turbocharger and the inlet of the engine. When the throttle is closed, compressed air flows to the engine without an exit (i.e., the air has nowhere to go).

In this situation, the surge can raise the pressure of the air to a level that can cause damage. This is because if the pressure rises high enough, a compressor stall occurs—stored pressurized air decompresses backward across the impeller and out the inlet. The reverse flow back across the turbocharger makes the turbine shaft reduce in speed more quickly than it would naturally, possibly damaging the turbocharger.

To prevent this from happening, a valve is fitted between the turbocharger and inlet, which vents off the excess air pressure. These are known as an anti-surge, diverter, bypass, turbo-relief valve, blow-off valve (BOV), or dump valve. It is a pressure relief valve

[Dougal]

Found this while I was looking around the other day for some info on variable geometry turbochargers.

Anti-surge/dump/blow off valves[edit]
Main article: Blowoff valve

anti-surge valve
Turbocharged engines operating at wide open throttle and high rpm require a large volume of air to flow between the turbocharger and the inlet of the engine. When the throttle is closed, compressed air flows to the engine without an exit (i.e., the air has nowhere to go).

In this situation, the surge can raise the pressure of the air to a level that can cause damage. This is because if the pressure rises high enough, a compressor stall occurs—stored pressurized air decompresses backward across the impeller and out the inlet. The reverse flow back across the turbocharger makes the turbine shaft reduce in speed more quickly than it would naturally, possibly damaging the turbocharger.

To prevent this from happening, a valve is fitted between the turbocharger and inlet, which vents off the excess air pressure. These are known as an anti-surge, diverter, bypass, turbo-relief valve, blow-off valve (BOV), or dump valve. It is a pressure relief valve
You don't have a throttle plate.