Diesel Particulate Filter for Disc 4 HSE SDV6

[areamihc]

I was disappointed to find out my 2012 built SDV did not come with a DPF.

I'm concerned about the health implications and would like to know if its possible to order a DPF from the dealers to have it supplied and installed?

Can anyone shed some light on this?

[Geedublya]

DPFs in general are a lot more than an add on like a catalytic converter. They have pressure sensors to detect their status and as they become blocked the ecu initiates a burn phase by adding more fuel to burn off the soot.
I don't think your dealer would be able to retrofit a genuine DPF.

There is an alternative though. An Australian company sells a DPF that is sold for use on underground mining vehicles, it could be retrofitted.

I have the website bookmarked on my work PC. I will post it later today.

[stig0000]

if it was such a problem. dident you ask before you bourght the car???

and no,, highly dout it we could just fit DPF, there are very very few d4s/sports out there with dpf,

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Why is that stiggy?
european models?
is it on the option list?

[Tombie]

Sounds like a troll post :p

Worried about the health implications of no DPF - please...

As opposed to all the chemicals coming out of the brand new leather and synthetic interior? Or emissions from the vehicle in front?

Seriously - are there people in the world that really think like this?:o

[Blknight.aus]

Trust me, you dont want one.

Australian fuel barely meets the standard required to support the engines that run them. If you use the vehicle for stop start city driving it'll wind up spending more time cleaning itself out and burning more fuel than you need to.

Good tech when it can be supported tho.

[Dougal]

In a city the size of Sydney, you think there are health implications by not having a DPF on your own vehicle?

You don't want a DPF and you really don't want to pay more for one up-front and then pay again for replacement or removal in 5 years time.

[areamihc]

Most international articles state 2012 SDVs come with DPF.

Only after careful reading yesterday on the australian brochure, I realise nothing was written about the dpf. Nor was it on the option list.

Why LR Australia decided to leave it out is beyond me. It would be of very poor taste if their reason is that Aus does not require it.



if it was such a problem. dident you ask before you bourght the car???

and no,, highly dout it we could just fit DPF, there are very very few d4s/sports out there with dpf,

[Dougal]

Euro 5 versions have it, euro 4 versions do not. Australia and NZ are still selling euro 4 versions.

LR leave it out because it would cost the owner more money to buy it, more money to repair/replace the DPF and sensors over the vehicles lifetime and would drink more fuel with the needed regenerations.

If you do not require one to meet legislation, then don't get one.

[areamihc]

Sounds like a troll post :p

Worried about the health implications of no DPF - please...

As opposed to all the chemicals coming out of the brand new leather and synthetic interior? Or emissions from the vehicle in front?

Seriously - are there people in the world that really think like this?:o

Your logic is flawed. Please go ahead and eat some poison pill. I'm sure you wouldnt be worried because you're already exposed to so much more poisons out there.

The idea here is to reduce the levels of poisonous stuff, so really I don't see your reasoning.

Furthermore, see Diesel cancer link (http://www.smh.com.au/national/diesel-cancer-link-20120613-20apb.html).

Not everyone is a troll. I love my LR. I'm just ****ed off that LR Aus did not have a dpf. Why so sensitive? I thought this is an avenue for discussion.

[Dougal]

Your logic is flawed. Please go ahead and eat some poison pill. I'm sure you wouldnt be worried because you're already exposed to so much more poisons out there.

The idea here is to reduce the levels of poisonous stuff, so really I don't see your reasoning.

Furthermore, see Diesel cancer link (http://www.smh.com.au/national/diesel-cancer-link-20120613-20apb.html).

Not everyone is a troll. I love my LR. I'm just ****ed off that LR Aus did not have a dpf. Why so sensitive? I thought this is an avenue for discussion.

No-one here understands your concerns. It has been known forever that all vehicle exhaust is harmful, a DPF will not make flowers sprout from your exhaust and it will not make it safe to be in a closed space with the vehicle running.

It is not LR's job to cater to individual phobias. If you are worried about cancer from vehicle exhaust, then for your own sake get the hell out of Sydney.

[areamihc]

Obviously it's not going to sprout flowers.

The point is it is a filter and thus reduces something!

If this is available, why wouldnt you want it?

Yes there are many things that can kill us faster in sydney, but that's not the focus. Again, your logic is also flawed. Putting it to extreme, we have a high chance of getting hit and killed by a car because we live in a dense urban area, so screw any health implications from diesel fumes. Yes that sounds about right.

Good luck living this way.

[Dougal]

The point is it is a filter and thus reduces something!

Do you have any idea what a DPF is and how it works?


If this is available, why wouldnt you want it?
Because they are expensive to buy, make your vehicle burn more fuel, are not that reliable and are very expensive to replace.

Even without a DPF the SDV6 is cleaner than about 90% of the vehicles on the road. If this isn't enough for you. Then give up driveing and ride a bike.

In Sydney you have a higher chance of lung cancer through second hand cigarette smoke than diesel fumes.

[Graeme]

I didn't want a DPF on my vehicle for various reasons but foremost is the fire risk if regeneration occurs whilst driving over dry grass. However if the sensor wiring is already fitted (quite possibly not all fitted but might only require a loom section), it should only require the DPF version of that section of the exhaust as already fitted to some early AU 3.0 D4s, the appropriate sensors and the CCF changed to indicate that a DPF is fitted. An easy test would be to change the CCF to specifiy a DPF then see what DPF sensor faults occur.

[Piddler]

Makes more sense to invest in a good quality after market water filter to protect the fuel system than a DPF.

Cheers

[Geedublya]

Link (http://www.microfreshfilters.com.au/) to after-market DPF manufacturer.

[Tombie]

Your logic is flawed. Please go ahead and eat some poison pill. I'm sure you wouldnt be worried because you're already exposed to so much more poisons out there.

The idea here is to reduce the levels of poisonous stuff, so really I don't see your reasoning.

Furthermore, see Diesel cancer link (http://www.smh.com.au/national/diesel-cancer-link-20120613-20apb.html).

Not everyone is a troll. I love my LR. I'm just ****ed off that LR Aus did not have a dpf. Why so sensitive? I thought this is an avenue for discussion.

Not flawed at all...

Unleaded is more carcinogenic than Leaded but we all switched to that.
Cats in UL vehicles need replacement in under 100,000km usually but it never happens.
Charcoal canisters in petrol vehicles are never replaced as per emissions requirements.
Microwave ovens emit radiation
You get more Xrays through you on a long haul plane ride than 20 xrays at a doctors
Plastic emits carcinogens
Pepper is poisonous

You're worrying about something that has links to cancer.. Fair enough..

But EVERYTHING does... Including fruit, vegetables etc...

There is only one cure for cancer.... :(

As for a DPF - I dont understand your phobia / concern about not having one...

Petrol isnt better at all.....
Unleaded petrol: a solution or a problem? | Green Left Weekly (http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/9927)


EXPERT WARNS OF UNLEADED PETROL CANCER DANGER UNLEADED petrol - particularly the controversial new 98 octane fuel - may contain dangerous levels of cancer causing chemicals, a leading expert on air pollution claimed.
The chemicals are derivatives of benzene, which is added to unleaded fuel to make it more powerful and has also been linked to cancer.
The 98 octane fuel, which was recently introduced in Hong Kong amid substantial controversy, contained greater amounts of the chemicals than the 95 octane it replaced, according to toxicologist, Liang Tan.
Ms Tan said combustion of unleaded petrol emitted polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), a confirmed carcinogenic.
"In order to stop the petrol mixture from exploding during the compression stroke, you must have a high octane level ... aromatic hydrocarbons put in unleaded fuel (to raise the octane level) give rise to carcinogens," she said.
The 98 octane fuel was introduced last month by oil companies who said they were responding to customer demand. It costs 21 cents a litre more than 95 octane.
"If you have high octane unleaded petrol you must have more of the cyclic compounds and that means you get more of these PAHs released into the air," Ms Tan said.
But Mr Peter Wong of the Environmental Protection Department said he was not "overly concerned" about the PAHs because their levels were not likely to be high here.
PAHs are difficult to measure but measurements of air-borne benzene, to which they are linked, showed it was one-tenth the American recommended level.
Mr Wong also said oil companies had promised to keep benzene levels in fuel to the British standard of a maximum of 5%.
This pledge was made earlier this year before the introduction of unleaded petrol on April 1, and at the time applied only to 95 octane.
The Consumer Council earlier this year had advocated imposing controls on the benzene content.
Ms Tan said much more research remains to be done on the effects of unleaded petrol.
She suggested that fitting catalytic converters to vehicles using unleaded petrol could reduce the problem by destroying most of the pollutants emitted.


Benzine is also known to be a contributor to childhood Leukemia...

[goingbush]

Buy a bicycle

[isuzurover]

I was disappointed to find out my 2012 built SDV did not come with a DPF.

I'm concerned about the health implications and would like to know if its possible to order a DPF from the dealers to have it supplied and installed?

Can anyone shed some light on this?

There are companies which sell retro-fit DPFs to the mining industry. It would likely be easier and cheaper to fit one of these, rather than the OEM setup from LR. They are also designed to be fitted to non-DPF vehicles, so would be less likely to clog.

[stray dingo]

There was a DPF installed on my last car (nissan pathfinder). The fuel use was high, service costs were higher, and performance suffered, but I did respect it's filtering capabilities.
Now I run the D4 in the garage for only 1/2 a minute and the fumes can be overpowering. But there were many instances were I might be behind the Nissan for extended periods and they never bothered me (eg hitching the van/loading goods etc). I also never saw the puffs of exhaust I see now when a bit heavy footed on acceleration.
Although I'm happy not to have one now, and think they are fairly pointless in Australia, I believe they can serve a purpose....


I didn't want a DPF on my vehicle for various reasons but foremost is the fire risk if regeneration occurs whilst driving over dry grass.
They don't regenerate until traveling at 80km/h for a period of time - not likely over dry grass

[Blknight.aus]

They don't regenerate until traveling at 80km/h for a period of time - not likely over dry grass

thats only nissans way of dealing with it...

some vehicles will regenerate anywhere anywhen and let you know all about it by flashing up a warning light on the dash, cutting engine power output and then upping the fuel consumption. then when that doesnt work it'll put you in a limp mode (at even further reduced power levels) till you can pull over to the side of the road and let it do a stationary regen which can take upto 30 minutes a go and if you're having a really bad day will want to have a second go at. Then Just to make you really really pleased to have something that makes your exhaust cleaner on board it will stick you in limp mode untill you can get it into a dealer to have a DPF service done which if you're really lucky they'll be able to do maybe tomorrow. If you're not lucky they wont be able to do it because they dont have the gear and it will be a case of traying it to a dealer who can or getting a replacement DPF which will take, ahhh bout a week mate, more if they dont have one in melbourne and have to bring it in from overseas.


The kicker is really this...

Australia moving to the equivelent of the Euro 5 standard.
Euro 3+ gives a standard for the diesel that goes into the tank. It gets tighter for Euro 4 and 5.

With fuel compliant with the euro 4 spec you can just and only just (with current tech make the emissions requirement for euro 4 without exhaust treatment.

once you hit euro 5 exhaust treatment is pretty much mandatory thats where schemes like DPF and Adblue came in.

Australian fuel does not reliably meet EURO 4+ in some places were tank maintenance and integrity (induction of particulate matter through breathers) is not up to par the fuel will sometimes not even make euro 3. following the basic premise of CICO can you blame the DPF for having a hard time processing the emmissions of an engine thats not being fed fuel of the standard required in the first place?

I realise that LR in all probability have not included the DPF in our fleet because it saves them money because Australian emission standards currently dont require EURO 5 compliance they can get away with not fitting it. But just quietly I hope that the reason its not fitted is because they've done the research and know that fitting it has the potential to cause unwarrented breakdown issues as our fuel can't be depended upon to meet the prerequisites for the technology.

[Celtoid]

I'm not going to wade in on the cancer stuff and can't really comment on the tech aspects of the fuel standards and how and when a DPF works....but as an owner of a 2009 D4 SE with a DPF fitted, I can certainly comment on my experience.

My car runs clean, and has never even the slightest puff of fume behind it. The exhaust has a very different smell to diesels I'm used to, quite innocuous.

I've had mine 2.5 years and I've had two regens (as in warning light comes on) and yet I drove in heavy traffic every single working day. The only reason I got a regen was the fact that I travelled through an area with miles of roadworks and there had been a prange. Everytime I felt I should turn off the engine, the traffic would inch a few feet forward (plus it was very hot outside). I was standing still or moving at less than 5kph for well over an hour. I doubt most owners would ever have their car regenarate, if driven in normal to heavy traffic.

When the car did regen....I assume it did it when the car was rolling at a decend rate of knots, as this is the owner manuals recommended way of cleaning the filter and getting rid of the warning light. At a guess, I'd say the car doesn't regen when the light comes on, only after you meet the regen parameter...but as I said, I'm guessing there. Maybe it's only at a certain high level of blockage that the light comes on and the car is constantly doing minor regens.....dunno.

As far as the actual regen activity is concerned, to get the light to go out.......you don't notice a thing.....no smoke, no noise, no obvious loss of performance. If it wasn't for the light on the dash, you wouldn't know anything had occured. On both occasions the light went out within minutes of normal driving.....not 20 or 30.

What's other D4 owner's experiences, are they the same as mine?

Cheers,

Kev.

[Blknight.aus]

from what I've read of the way the landy does it...

IT fires up often and for shorter periods when the vehicles speed is high and engine load is light.

IT turns on post glow on the plugs, does a late injection and spits some fire down the pipe to get the DPF "on fire" then runs a couple of pots (in a rolling sequence) low on power to spit more air down the exhaust to let the burn in the DPF breathe.

It has 2 levels of higher burn off, 1 requires you to hit the button that tells the computer to initiate the heavier burn. It can be done while driving BUT it requires you to be in a certain driving pattern.

The next level is a stationary burn off where you're required to pull over (I think it will still work if you have selected a certain gear combo, 1/low I expect) and let the engine do its thing till the DPF pressure differential says its clear.

The last stage is a dealer initiated one and sticks you in limping mode.

[Stuart02]

Just this week past, diesel particulate matter was officially declared a carcinogen. Harmful exposure levels are more of an occupational than user concern, but that said, its hardly fair that we don't at least have the option in Oz when its available elsewhere, right?

[Graeme]

does a late injection and spits some fire down the pipe to get the DPF "on fire"
... over-rides EGR valve operation to ensure they stay closed then does a late injection to leave unburnt fuel in the exhaust gas to cause the catalytic converter to reach its maximum safe temperature to generate sufficient heat to burn the particulates out of the DPF.

[Graeme]

diesel particulate matter was officially declared a carcinogen
So what's the situation if they are collected in a DPF over time then all burnt in a concentrated short period? Are they any less carcinogenic? Are they effectively more?

[Blknight.aus]

yep, Im waiting for them to introduce a second "EGR" in the intake which is intended to bleed boost air from prior to the intercooler into the DPF to allow a higher power out during the Regen.

[oldyella 76]

My 2012 defender does not have one and I am glad it doesn't. The book states it will clean every 800 odd K's and you will need to be doing about 80 clicks for it to work. And if your in the bush the thing will get hot and set the grass on fire and some in other vehicles already have. In fact there is someone who is manufacturing dummy ones that look exactly the same with ports for sensors ect. Better without them less expences later.
Probably should pedal a bike if we are worried about that.
Lindsay.

[Blknight.aus]

So what's the situation if they are collected in a DPF over time then all burnt in a concentrated short period? Are they any less carcinogenic? Are they effectively more?



What the DPF does is catch all the unburnt particles of fuel when enough of them gather the DPF's temperate us raised and all the coolected stuff burns off.

Its not as clean as the normal exhaust emissions of a DPF fitted vehicle when its not burning But its still cleaner than the emissions if you didnt have one fitted.

Here's a ball park analogy.

Take normal every day wood, you burn it and unless its really hot it smokes.

If you catch that smoke and condense it down you get soot. if you condense the soot enough you'd get coal the coal once burning burns cleanly. Its not as clean as if you'd processed the tree into coal in the first place and then burnt that But its still cleaner than just burning the wood.

roughly....

[superquag]

hmmm, my nasty suspicious mind is thinking 'propaganda' regarding the shock announcement that diesel particulate matter may cause cancer under certain circumstances.
Now we have financial masochist stirring the pot by singing the praises of a DPF.

In the light of reality, as pointed out our diesel fuel barely meets any consistant standard, and that Australian 4WDs are known to leave the sealed road, a DPF is not a desirable fitment from a reliability, practical, agricultural safety or cost of ownership viewpoint.


When did YOU remove your wasteful, cheap old-technology lamps, and replace them with the CFLs, - when it was mandated and you had no choice? - Or years ago when theyfirst became available ???

I reckon we should aquaint ourselves with the concept of the "fellow traveller" - the well-meaning but ignorant person who espouses and promulgates an issue without fully understanding the damage (or hidden aganda) being done...


Cynical older James in WA

[Graeme]

Hmm, I don't much go for the smoke to coal and coal burning cleanly analogy, having spent more than 20 years working for a coal minig company and very aware of the pollution accusations levelled at coal-fired power stations. However burning the particulates at a high temperature gets rid of the large particles which may or may not produce toxic fumes in the process but at least the large particles no longer exist to block-up lungs, which is a different to being carcinogenic though. I don't know the science but wonder at the political aspect of eliminating visible emissions from vehicles.

[Davehoos]

There are 8000 people living per square KM in sydney.
and workshops,wharehouses and other industries locations that may require paticulate fiters on vehicles and some stationary engines.

cant rember what the LPG emisions are when used in confined locations but a diesel would be better for a street broom or generator.

the trucks we have need to be parked for about 15 minutes in neutral-if you touch the clutch etc it will delay the burn.

we had a discusion about this..a cat grader has been unhappy for some time-it was incorrectly fitted with a safety exhaust pipe that blocked and pressure fed exhaust into the air cleaner.with the correct pipe fitted the computor was having kittens to the dude fixed it.

the discusion was why does our new machinery not have to comply.on the engine it shows it passes american off road emision specs.
not a number i recognise like sae or dot.

[Blknight.aus]

hmmm, my nasty suspicious mind is thinking 'propaganda' regarding the shock announcement that diesel particulate matter may cause cancer under certain circumstances.
Now we have financial masochist stirring the pot by singing the praises of a DPF.


Nothing new about it...

I knew about it not long after I joined up the first time when it was identified as a carcenogenic. That was back in the late 90's it was revisited in the mid 90's after Diesel Cats came in and diesel exhaust was downgraded.

DPF has been around now for about 3 years and if my suspicions are right its going to result in the diesel exuast of EURO 5 vehicles being listed as "mostly harmless" and I'm going to have to go sit through another ass load of testings so I'm covered by Comcare for my employers negligence in exposing me to a deadly carcinogenic ( along side asbestos, paint, radiation, noise, vibration but sadly not idiots)

I like to fit it all into the catagory of

"give me enough data points and selective flexability and I'll prove anything you want"

[Davehoos]

stone age people died from black lung as did women 80 yrs ago from tending cooking fires.

my dads now 10yrs older than my grandfathers in his late 70's-a heavy smoker in dusty chicken sheds farming and logging- had skin cancer since he was 30yr.

his health issue is blood pressure and stress .

[Davehoos]

properganda at this moment is partculates at a smaller size that need study with regaudes health risks.

its like if you keep study of things then you find something--------

[superquag]

I was disappointed to find out my 2012 built SDV did not come with a DPF.

I'm concerned about the health implications and would like to know if its possible to order a DPF from the dealers to have it supplied and installed?

Can anyone shed some light on this?


Yes.

In the light of the Forum comments, pick the nearest one or more...

* Land Rover did not design it to have one, in Australia.
* Your research before purchase was non-existant.
* Your research before purchase was not competent.
* A DPR was not mandatory at date of manufacture. (Did you change to CFLs when they first became available, or when you had no choice ?)
* Other......

Certain regulatory authorities will need to approve such a modification/addition to comply with 'roadworthiness' and safety.

If you do have a non-standard DPF fitted, understand that you may be liable for any adverse event(s) caused by said DPF fitment. - Any hurt, injury, fire etc that can be shown to be associated with it in possible way or degree....


You will need to consult your insurance company.

[Dougal]

I'm not going to wade in on the cancer stuff and can't really comment on the tech aspects of the fuel standards and how and when a DPF works....but as an owner of a 2009 D4 SE with a DPF fitted, I can certainly comment on my experience.

My car runs clean, and has never even the slightest puff of fume behind it. The exhaust has a very different smell to diesels I'm used to, quite innocuous.

I've had mine 2.5 years and I've had two regens (as in warning light comes on) and yet I drove in heavy traffic every single working day. The only reason I got a regen was the fact that I travelled through an area with miles of roadworks and there had been a prange. Everytime I felt I should turn off the engine, the traffic would inch a few feet forward (plus it was very hot outside). I was standing still or moving at less than 5kph for well over an hour. I doubt most owners would ever have their car regenarate, if driven in normal to heavy traffic.

When the car did regen....I assume it did it when the car was rolling at a decend rate of knots, as this is the owner manuals recommended way of cleaning the filter and getting rid of the warning light. At a guess, I'd say the car doesn't regen when the light comes on, only after you meet the regen parameter...but as I said, I'm guessing there. Maybe it's only at a certain high level of blockage that the light comes on and the car is constantly doing minor regens.....dunno.

As far as the actual regen activity is concerned, to get the light to go out.......you don't notice a thing.....no smoke, no noise, no obvious loss of performance. If it wasn't for the light on the dash, you wouldn't know anything had occured. On both occasions the light went out within minutes of normal driving.....not 20 or 30.

What's other D4 owner's experiences, are they the same as mine?

Cheers,

Kev.

I don't have any D4 DPF experience, but I do with some Audi/VW diesels.

The burn you are experiencing above isn't the standard regen. It sounds more like a necessary burn to clear a mostly blocked filter on a low speed vehicle.
The VAG DPF's periodically burn clean during normal open-road driving based on a distance/time setting buried deep in the ECU, this is imperceptible to the driver unless you have the instantaneous fuel economy readout up.
At steady road speed the fuel consumption will increase by about 2 litres/100km for a few km as the engine retards injection timing and does post-injection to fire flames down the exhaust and into the DPF to burn it clean.

They do this with no lights, no extra noises etc. But if you pull over when it's started you will apparently feel the extra exhaust heat and even smell it.

If a DPF gets too far blocked, it won't burn clean and has to be replaced. If it gets poisoned it'll block up and need replaced. Eventually the filter and it's sensors will need replaced anyway. Timeframes seem to vary but two audis here which are 3-4 years old have had sensors replaced each but the filters still going okay.

[Celtoid]

I don't have any D4 DPF experience, but I do with some Audi/VW diesels.

The burn you are experiencing above isn't the standard regen. It sounds more like a necessary burn to clear a mostly blocked filter on a low speed vehicle.
The VAG DPF's periodically burn clean during normal open-road driving based on a distance/time setting buried deep in the ECU, this is imperceptible to the driver unless you have the instantaneous fuel economy readout up.
At steady road speed the fuel consumption will increase by about 2 litres/100km for a few km as the engine retards injection timing and does post-injection to fire flames down the exhaust and into the DPF to burn it clean.

They do this with no lights, no extra noises etc. But if you pull over when it's started you will apparently feel the extra exhaust heat and even smell it.

If a DPF gets too far blocked, it won't burn clean and has to be replaced. If it gets poisoned it'll block up and need replaced. Eventually the filter and it's sensors will need replaced anyway. Timeframes seem to vary but two audis here which are 3-4 years old have had sensors replaced each but the filters still going okay.

Thanks mate,

That's the sort of info I was looking for.

How long does the standard regen normally take....seconds, minutes?

Cheers,

Kev.

[Dougal]

Thanks mate,

That's the sort of info I was looking for.

How long does the standard regen normally take....seconds, minutes?

Cheers,

Kev.

I've never timed it. I'm guessing a minute or two, but time gets distorted a little when you are driving.