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grey_ghost
14th June 2012, 09:07 PM
Hi All,

I need some advice and help please...

Tonight I removed the wheel nuts (and wheels) from the current project (Roger).

The front wheels / nuts came off without a problem...

Some of the rear wheel nuts - the nuts stayed on the stud (is that the correct term?) - which then simply unscrewed from the hub plate (is that the correct term?) leaving the wheel nut connected to the stud...

See pic:
http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p549/tomb1971/Roger%20-%201960%20Land%20Rover/IMG_1037.jpg

Do I need to purchase new studs and wheel nuts. Then simply screw the new studs into the hub plate?
I don't think that I will be able to remove the wheel nut off the stud, without damaging the stud..

The next problem is - I managed to get 2 of the drums off without a problem. (Simply un-screw the drum screws, use a rubber mallet and gently tap the drum off)...

Then I noticed on one of the rear drums - the previous owner has mangled/destroyed the "drum screws". I took the drum off - but the damaged screws are STILL in the actual hub plate (is that the correct term?).

See pic:
http://i1155.photobucket.com/albums/p549/tomb1971/Roger%20-%201960%20Land%20Rover/IMG_1031.jpg

What do I do now? :(

Do I have to replace it entirely because I don't know how I am going to get the damaged drum screws (or what's left of them) out?

As always - all help is appreciated... On my previous Landy I didn't encounter this problem... I'm a little sad about this recent turn of events... Hopefully somebody will have an easy solution!

Regards,
The Grey Ghost.

JDNSW
14th June 2012, 09:30 PM
1. You need to replace the studs and nuts. The stud screws in and the hollow end is then punched into the groove in the back of the flange of the hub. The thread in the hub may be damaged, in which case there are two alternatives - either replace the hub or drill out the holes to take the later type of stud that drives in from the back like the Series 3 with 16mm studs. These studs may be a bit harder to find, but I think they are available. Always keep the wheel nuts lubricated to avoid a repeat of the problem, and check at every service.

2. For the damaged drum retaining screws, the simplest solution is to grind flat the remains of the ones damaged, and then turn the position of the drum by one stud and redrill and tap the holes, or even just centre punch and drill then tap the same location - they do not have a significant load. I think they are 3/8"W. Note that there is also a tapped hole in the drum that a same size bolt screwed into will pull the drum away from the hub.

Hope this helps,

John

Blknight.aus
14th June 2012, 09:32 PM
if you cant get the studs off of the nuts then yes, you should replace both. The terms you named are near enough good enough, Id have used

Hub,
wheel studs

the screws in the drum are either called centering screws or drum retaining screws. as bad as those ones are you might be able to pin punch them out with a hammer and a nail sinking punch (they have a concave dome on the business end) but most likely you'll have to drill the heads off, then grab the remnents with a pair of vice grips.

If that fails you can then drill them out and retap the exisitng holes.

IF that fails, you can put the drum on offset to its original position once you have carefully ground the screws flush secure it with a couple of taper head bolts (to perform the same centering action as the original screws) then redrill and tap through the taper holes in the drum.

incisor
14th June 2012, 09:41 PM
hit the nuts between two hammers or a hammer and dolly on each face then soak in your favorite penetrating oil eg wd40 etc then repeat till they come off.

wrinklearthur
14th June 2012, 09:55 PM
Free up all the nuts so they run easily onto the threads of the studs, both the ones still in the hub and the ones that screwed out.

To reinstall the loose studs, run a nut half it's length onto the stud to be replaced, get the appropriate size BSF thread and screw it into the nut locking it inplace, using this to drive and then tighten the stud back into the hub.

After replacing all the studs so their end are then level with the end of the threaded hole, use a arc welder to tack weld the studs at the back of the hub.
A quick clean up and a pressure pack squirt of some acrylic paint, ---- job finished ---- .
.

andy_d110
14th June 2012, 10:26 PM
The drum retaining screws had snapped off my 86", centre pop the remains and drill through completely with a small drill bit and gradually increase the size. You can then use an ezy out to remove the threaded portion. You may need to heat it up and spray it with some crickets ****.

manic
14th June 2012, 11:08 PM
Is the easiest solution to just put it back on how you found it?

Without retaining screws the wheel will clamp the drum in place - were you having issues before?

The stuck nut on the stud has seized into an effective bolt.. so why not wind it back in there? Perhaps winding it back in and trying to tighten it before undoing again may break the seize.

Just saying.. i dont see why you cant put it back together... if I were you I'd continue on, order up some new studs, bolts and retaining screws and look to tidy it up another day - prehaps drive to a garage to have them drill tap the mangled retainer screws if your not keen...

slug_burner
15th June 2012, 01:36 AM
seized threads can respond to heat, the expansion of the components breaks the seizure/bind. If you don't have a torch use the gas stove and put your studs and nuts on near the burner so that you can heat the things up.

I have had a few cars that have not had the screws to hold the drums but just rely on the wheel studs and nuts to hold the drum in place.

isuzurover
15th June 2012, 03:09 AM
As mentioned, you will need new studs and nuts.

Back when I had IIA hubs I found that it was a good idea to tack weld the studs to the back of the hub (use a MIG or multi-purpose electrodes).

The screws are not needed. I removed mine about 14 years ago and no problems. Working on the brakes or hubs is much easier without them.

wrinklearthur
15th June 2012, 06:04 AM
To salvage the seized parts give the following a go.

Heat the seized parts up, till they are black hot ( temperature of melting solder ), for a heat source to do this I would use a gas camping cooker.
Then when the parts are hot, a quick hit across each one of the flats with a hammer whilst laying the other side of the nut on a flat solid steel surface, then drop them while still hot, straight into cold water, this will crack the rust bind on the parts.
To unscrew the nuts from the loose studs, I would use a heavy vice fitted with soft jaws plates ( a couple of aluminium angle pieces is ideal ), clamp the stud in the soft jaws and undo the nut, a really stubborn set may need the heating process a couple of times, but they will yield.

For the counter sunk head screws that have been mangled, use the brake drum to locate the centre of the screws' hole and with a drill bit the same size as the hole in the brake drum, drill into the screw a short way, to create a counter sunk hole to centre and then start a smaller drill bit, drill out the remainder of the damaged screw with a size bit that will just pass through the thread in the hole with out damaging the hub, finish by cleaning the threads with a tap.

A smear of molybdenum grease on all the threads and the mounting surface of the brake drums' hole, will stop the parts seizing again.

geodon
19th June 2012, 09:11 AM
I concur with the advice given.

Ezy-Outs- drill them out 1st. DO NOT TRUST YOUR LUCK! If Ezy-Outs snap in the hole you have major problems as they are toughened steel. OR, place a nut on the end of the sheared off bit & fill the hole withn a MIG. Cool, then unscrew with a spanner.


Wheel Studs: I replaced my fronts but the replacements did not have the concave ends for peening so I tack welded them. Not Good Technical Practice but the welds are only to stop the studs turning!

wrinklearthur
19th June 2012, 11:49 AM
Wheel Studs: I replaced my fronts but the replacements did not have the concave ends for peening so I tack welded them. Not Good Technical Practice but the welds are only to stop the studs turning!

I agree that welding isn't the best, but it does the job and I have done this myself in the past without any problems. Getting the hub too hot will cause distortion so only do tack welds.

grey_ghost
21st June 2012, 09:34 AM
Hi All,

I had a small win last night - well at least on 2 of the 3 drum screws...

Andy_d110's suggestion worked well:

Drill a small pilot hole, and then insert an "easy out" or "screw extractor" to remove what remains of the drum screw. I bought a "screw extractor" for $11 from a large hardware store...

That worked great... What didn't work so great was on the 3rd (and final) screw, the drill bit snapped off in the drum screw... And you can't drill out a drill bit... Doh! (Worst case I can grind the area flat, and use 2 drum screws instead of 3...)

Murphy must have written a law specifically in relation to Land Rovers - "When removing a component, it is always the last screw/not/bolt that will seize."

The other good news - I couldn't get the last drum off at all. The drums screws would not move. When I tried to use a long screw driver I could feel the screw head begin to damage... I didn't want to end up in the same place (broken drum screws). So I bought an impact driver - and it worked a treat!

:)

Regards,
The Grey Ghost!

Bigbjorn
21st June 2012, 10:14 AM
Hi All,

I had a small win last night - well at least on 2 of the 3 drum screws...

Andy_d110's suggestion worked well:

Drill a small pilot hole, and then insert an "easy out" or "screw extractor" to remove what remains of the drum screw. I bought a "screw extractor" for $11 from a large hardware store...

That worked great... What didn't work so great was on the 3rd (and final) screw, the drill bit snapped off in the drum screw... And you can't drill out a drill bit... Doh! (Worst case I can grind the area flat, and use 2 drum screws instead of 3...)

Murphy must have written a law specifically in relation to Land Rovers - "When removing a component, it is always the last screw/not/bolt that will seize."

The other good news - I couldn't get the last drum off at all. The drums screws would not move. When I tried to use a long screw driver I could feel the screw head begin to damage... I didn't want to end up in the same place (broken drum screws). So I bought an impact driver - and it worked a treat!

:)

Regards,
The Grey Ghost!

Instead of Ezy-outs or similar, first try a reverse helix drill bit. The thrust generated by the cutting action most times will screw the offending screw out. You need a drill that runs in reverse. If you break an Ezy-out or drill bit in the hole you are in trouble. They are usually made of high speed steel. Your choices then are to take the item to a machine with an electronic discharge machine which can be a problem if the component is firmly attached to something too big to get in the machine, or, buy a tungsten carbide drill and try that to remove the broken tool.

wrinklearthur
21st June 2012, 10:18 AM
What didn't work so great was on the 3rd (and final) screw, the drill bit snapped off in the drum screw... And you can't drill out a drill bit

With the hub off you can drill from the other side into the screw and when after the two points of the drill bits have touched, use a pin punch and tap out the broken bit.
.

Lotz-A-Landies
21st June 2012, 10:46 AM
For safety reasons, I'd not be happy with re-inserting the original studs into the hub, or even re-using the original hols/threads with replacement studs.

The design was always poor and this hub has already failed.

As I see it there are two safe options: replace the hub with the late SIIa type with studs that are pressed in from the rear.
mill out the holes and press in the late push in type studs. 561886 WHEEL STUD PUSH IN TYPE | shop | www.lrseries.com | L. R. Series (http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/1330/561886-WHEEL-STUD-PUSH-IN-TYPE.html?search=wheel stud&page=1)With the drum retaining screws. Using a drift give a number of hits on the screw head with a heavy hammer. Then using a smaller punch at a tangent in the direction of removal knock the screw out. If you have one, you can use an impact driver instead of the drift and then the punch technique. Replace the screws 1510 BRAKE DRUM SCREW | shop | www.lrseries.com | L. R. Series (http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/22/1510-BRAKE-DRUM-SCREW.html?search=drum screw&page=1) and insert using never seize on the thread.

grey_ghost
28th June 2012, 09:17 AM
Hi All,

Thanks very much for all of the advice.

I now have ALL drums screws out.

3 (from a front drum) just needed lots of WD-40 and a impact driver. This worked a treat.
3 (from a rear drum) needed to be removed via an "ezy-out" and re-tapped.

So I now have all drums off and all drum screw holes clean.

Regards,
The Grey Ghost.