Puma power stuttering

[eckwalsh]

Hi Guys hopeing to get some advice.
Over the last month or so I've been having a little drama with my 08 Puma defender.Every now and then it just seems to loose power or stutter several times.It did it again today. It seems to cut off and on and off and on as tho someone is turning the fuel or ignition off and on.Today i was driving along the highway at 105kmh and the power just seemed to cut off and on quite a number of times.By the time it came good again i was down to about 70kmh. Doesn't do it all the time but its done it to me now a couple of times and my wife a couple of times over the last few weeks.
Would be grateful for any advice or help.
Regards.
Eck

[Chops]

I have a 2011 puma, now it's done 20000 ks, but up untill it went in for it's 10k service, I could pull up at the lights, and it would start running really roughly for a few seconds. Now if it did this at speed, I couldn't feel or hear it, but I decided not to leave it, and so told them. They ended up replacing the ECU, and the injectors.
I'm guessing your out of warranty unless you've got extended, but I'd get it to a dealer to check at least.

Chops

[eckwalsh]

I have a 2011 puma, now it's done 20000 ks, but up untill it went in for it's 10k service, I could pull up at the lights, and it would start running really roughly for a few seconds. Now if it did this at speed, I couldn't feel or hear it, but I decided not to leave it, and so told them. They ended up replacing the ECU, and the injectors.
I'm guessing your out of warranty unless you've got extended, but I'd get it to a dealer to check at least.

Chops

Thanks Chops.
Think i may have to do this. trouble is its a 200km round trip.And yes it is out of warranty.
Regards

Eck

[scanfor]

How's the electrical conductivity of the connection to the fuel-cut solenoid.
I had similar problems (but with 300Tdi) - the spade connector was corroded.
Cut it off and replaced it and the problem seems to have been solved (done 20,000km since with no recurrence).

[TimNZ]

Certainly sounds fuel related :( As a bit of a long shot you could try checking the connection for the cylinder head temperature sensor, (if this goes high the engine should go into a reduced power mode).

Cheers,

Tim

[dullbird]

also while your doing checks I would be inclined to drain off some fuel from the fuel filter make sure you haven't got water in the fuel.

[justinc]

like lou-lou (:p) says above, check for contaminated fuel. do it asap.

if your injectors need to be replaced out of warranty its gonna hurt:(:(

jc

[Lorryman100]

If you think there is water in the fuel or it is contaminated, change the filter asap. When you remove the housing look for signs of detritus and water being present. If it looks ok then move onto the tank breather pipe checking to see if it is blocked or if it has become kinked or trapped against the chassis.

If you have a diagnostic tool check the rail pressure and boost pressure during these incidents. If you don't have one then unplug the MAP sensor and remove it being careful not to damage the rubber O ring. Clean the sensor head with a cleaning agent like carburetor cleaner. Also coat the sensor plug/harness plug in electrical contact cleaner to ensure a good signal return. (The MAP sensor is used for turbo boost).

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/lorryman100/egrandmap.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/546.jpg

There was a LR tech bulletin on the turbo actuator control arm becoming corroded onto either the vane control arm or the modulator arm resulting in the modulator not being able to control boost through movement of the vane. Check that the arm feels loose on the ball joints and is not stiff. There is a bit of play in it which is a good sign, if it doesn't move in either of the arm joints then you need to clean them and re-grease them.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/lorryman100/Defender%20110/IMG_1092Large.jpg

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/lorryman100/Defender%20110/IMG_1100Large.jpg

On the Puma, the ECU inhibits the injector circuit when you switch off the ignition, so there is no stop solenoid on the fuel pump. The two electrical plugs on the pump are for the VCV (volume control valve) and the fuel temp sensor so please don't cut into them!

If the CHT sensor was at fault then I would expect to see the engine revs drop with a lack of power for at least a few seconds as the heat dissipation would not be instant enough to cause your symptoms. When the CHT fails the ECU adopts a stored value of, IIRC, 88 degrees C, which would not inhibit revs or power. Though saying that, it would still be worth unplugging it and cleaning the plugs with electrical contact cleaner.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/07/616.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/07/617.jpg

Under the drivers seat there are some relays, if the main power relay was loose, bad connection through corrosion etc, it would cause the engine to cut out as the injector circuit draws quite a few amps when the engine is running. Pull the relays one at a time and if need be clean the prongs and refit them tightly, chances are this is your culprit. If everything there looks ok check the earth bonds are still intact.

HTH Brian.

[08Bender]

Hi,

If you have a power up chip (DPChip) take it off.

Cheers,

[dullbird]

extremely helpful post Lorryman good stuff...

and I haven' forgotten about your files I have downloaded them all just need to upload them again ;)

[Lorryman100]

Just experienced these same issues on my mates 2007 Puma! Did all what I said earlier with no noticeable difference. So then we took off the inlet feed pipe (from the tank) from the filter head and noticed it was full of crud, detritus from the fuel tank, seems contaminated forecourt tanks are to blame? The filter head port is very fine and the crud was blocking the feed from the tank as there is no filtration between these points. So I am going to go with Blknights idea of using a pre TD5 OEM water trap between the tank and filter head :BigThumb:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/154709-water-filter-trap.html

Also if you try this at home you will need a Puma fuel bleeding pump to recharge the fuel system as the fuel pump may or may not do this. Or you could make one?

Defender2 - View topic - Puma fuel bleeding pump (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic516.html)

Brian.

[portafilter]

is the correct procedure when draining all the crud off the fuel filter drain port to have the engine running or off?
i assume off but i have seen a few posts where people have drained off almost 200ml from the bottom of the filter. all i can manage is about 20ml.

justin

[newhue]

Just experienced these same issues on my mates 2007 Puma! Did all what I said earlier with no noticeable difference. So then we took off the inlet feed pipe (from the tank) from the filter head and noticed it was full of crud, detritus from the fuel tank, seems contaminated forecourt tanks are to blame? The filter head port is very fine and the crud was blocking the feed from the tank as there is no filtration between these points. So I am going to go with Blknights idea of using a pre TD5 OEM water trap between the tank and filter head :BigThumb:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/154709-water-filter-trap.html

Also if you try this at home you will need a Puma fuel bleeding pump to recharge the fuel system as the fuel pump may or may not do this. Or you could make one?

Defender2 - View topic - Puma fuel bleeding pump (http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic516.html)

Brian.


Brian, if you fit up the pre99 TD5 separator as blacknight suggested can you please share your findings. Been pondering on fitting a sedimenter for a while and to keep using LR stuff works for me.

In a private conversation with the man he suggested fitting a large hand pump inline to delete the need for the priming tool. A pump similar to the prime tool. Just need to clarify it would have enough open flow not to restrict the system.
Perhaps you can clarify, it is my understanding the flow side of the fuel system from the tank to pump is via very low vacuum, -12 or something, is this correct.
There is no pump in the fuel tank, rather just low vacuum produced from the pump in the engine bay, and once fuel is into the pump it goes up in pressure and into the rail.

As you can see my mechanicing is not vast.

thanks

[Lorryman100]

I am now going to look into going with a Raccor filter instead as per this post here: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/154709-water-filter-trap.html

As to fitting a bulb type primer inline pre filter? I did look at using one of the many types of manual lift pumps used predominately on tractors. I have one from an old massey 35 and it has the glass sedimentor bowl as well. The problem comes in how to prime the pump after allowing air into the fuel system? I have the LR bleed tool which was expensive to buy but is a doddle to use and works first time everytime so hence why I thought the Raccor filter mounted between the tank and original filter would be the way for me to go as I could bleed the system any time it needed doing.

The fuel pumps utilizes a transfer pump in the low pressure side to draw fuel from the tank and through the filter to the pumps fuel inlet and the transfer pump. The suction pressure of the transfer pump is -30 to -20 Kpa. As a picture explains more than a thousand words here is a diagram of the Pumas fuel pump which also explains how the pump works to give you an idea of what it is doing.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/430.jpg

Brian.

[TimNZ]

Brian, do you how much the fuel filter needs to be able to flow (l/hr)? Or how much the standard filter is capable of flowing?

Cheers,

Tim

[Lorryman100]

Just found this for the Pumas OEM filter:
This is the fuel filter with LR part number. The interesting bit is the bowl kit at the bottom!!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1366.jpg

36995 stanadyne fuel filter (http://thomasauto.absolutewebhosting2.co.uk/Product-175/-/Fuel-Filters/Fuel-Manager/36995)

I phoned to check and the glass bowl fits onto the bottom of an OEM filter by way of the drain screw and a metal rod which goes up into the filter.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/370.jpg

Stanadyne Water Collection Bowl 29899 (http://thomasauto.absolutewebhosting2.co.uk/pr598-gr175/Bowl-Kit-29899)

I am just going to order a new filter and bowl and see if it does enough to warrant not fitting the Raccor system and cutting into the tank feed.

Brian.

[newhue]

be interesting to see if it fits in the metal shield for the filter as well.

some thought on how sturdy the bowl is would also be well appreciated. Down here the corrugations can rattle you fillings out.

[Lorryman100]

The shield can be altered if need be, so no concerns there, he says confidently [bighmmm] As to the corrugations, as it uses the same mount as the OEM drain screw, does that ever come loose and cause issues? The reason I ask is that, touch wood, I've not had any issues with the fuel system as a whole driving the third world roads that make up Scotlands A and B roads:(

Brian.

[newhue]

ahhh all good then, your roads must be a bit like ours.

good find

[dullbird]

Good find Brian let us know how you go if you fit this filter up A I wil like to put a water trap on ours

[Naks]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/370.jpg

Stanadyne Water Collection Bowl 29899 (http://thomasauto.absolutewebhosting2.co.uk/pr598-gr175/Bowl-Kit-29899)

I am just going to order a new filter and bowl and see if it does enough to warrant not fitting the Raccor system and cutting into the tank feed.


Does this device allow you to see how much water is in the fuel filter and then drain it?

[Lorryman100]

Naks, the way the OEM filter works is to allow the water to sit in the base of the filter allowing you to drain it occasionally with the drain plug. The problem is that the filter is metal and you can't physically see if there is water present without actually draining the filter. The glass bowl is a visual aid plus it will capture more water as you will have the water in the bowl plus whatever the filter can hold, so you should be able to trap more water before it is fed into the fuel pump. The raccor filter employs the glass bowl on the bottom of the filter but fitting that means cutting into the tank feed fuel line between the OEM filter and tank as the raccor is not a like for like replacement. Plus you would have two filters to change plus I'm guessing it would add more of a feed restriction to the low pressure transfer pump which operates at -30 to -20 kpa.
I have ordered this to try and see if it negates the need for fitting an additional raccor unit. I am wary of putting to many possible restrictions on any part of the fuel feed as there is no fuel pump, just suction from the transfer pump. I am hoping this works and for £60 (new fuel filter and bowl) delivered it is for me anyway,worth a try.

Brian.

[andrewfaber]

Hi,
I have just found your post from 2012 about your puma power stuttering, my 2009 puma is having very similar problems. I hope you wouldn't mind telling me what you ended up doing that solved the problem? It seems to be eluding me and I have been advised to change the ECU which I am hoping to avoid due to the expense.

Andrew