terrain response

[irondoc]

Hi guys, just wanted your input on terrain response. I haven't had my 2011 2.7 D4 for long and was trying to go up a steep slippery grass hill with standard road tyres. I had it in low range mud & ruts.

I kept getting to a point where there was a ledge, the wheels started spinning and i couldn't go further. I put the brakes on, the car would start slipping back, the ABS would cut in and the car would stall, so i would wait till it stopped, put the car in park, restart it, put it in reverse and go back. It all felt a bit cumbersome.

Does this sound normal? Should the car have stalled? Should i have had DSC off?

I would appreciate any comments as i haven't done much offroading in the D4 and my mates have been laughing at me.......

I realise some decent offroad rubber would help....

Cheers
lucas

[BobD]

You should have been in rock crawl with DSC on I think. Mud and ruts allows the wheels to spin (for mud) but rock crawl gives you maximum lock up of everything and aggressive traction control.

Bob

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I never know if I need to use pine tree, cactus tree or snow flake! :o

Have found a few pine trees, but keep looking for cactus with no success to date! :D

[Celtoid]

Hey Mate,

The tyres don't help but I've gone up and down slippery grass and gravel pretty easily on the Wranglers before they got turfed for ATR Scorpions.

GGS is the first option....Grass, Gravel, Snow.

Rock Crawl is amazing and would be my second option if the going gets tough....it's got me out of mud and sand bogs.

DSC....pretty sure I'd be turning it off. Any wiggles or wobbles will cause the brakes to come on....not what you want on a steep ascent.

GGHaggis on this forum is the king of these machines, he'll give you heaps of advice if needs be.

Cheers,

Kev.

[gghaggis]

I put the brakes on, the car would start slipping back, the ABS would cut in and the car would stall, so i would wait till it stopped

At this point (if I understand you right), I think you've come up against the laws of physics. No friction = no forward motion. So regardless of what you did with the TR, it's doubtful you'd have made it up on road tyres. Big reduction of tyre pressure and slowly-slowly in RockCrawl (DSC on) would have been your best bet. Assuming you didn't want to launch yourself over the ridge!!

Cheers,

Gordon

[wyperfield]

The 2.7 can stall pretty easily when in Auto up steep hills even when in mud/ruts mode. So I usually start out in low range + command shift 3rd or 4th and change down when you feel the engine struggling at low revs. The D3 will climb most surfaces without any special terrain response.

[irondoc]

I'm feeling much better about the D4 now - went up a little steep muddy, tree-rooted, rutted track on the weekend. The D4 got up pretty easily with a bit of slip-and-slide on road tyres. The Defender 90 behind me took about 5 goes....

cheers
lucas

[gghaggis]

I'm feeling much better about the D4 now - went up a little steep muddy, tree-rooted, rutted track on the weekend. The D4 got up pretty easily with a bit of slip-and-slide on road tyres. The Defender 90 behind me took about 5 goes....

cheers
lucas

This should justify your feelings! Have a look at a couple of vids from our last training session - first is Defender (on mud tyres) trying a deceptively slippery clay hill:

23Jun2012 0016 - YouTube

Next is me on the same hill - Rock-Crawl with all-terrain tyres:

23Jun2012 0017 - YouTube

Cheers,

Gordon

[Robocop]

Where was the terrain response on the Defender? I know my Xtreme had it buy I also know its an option these days..

Rob

[gghaggis]

Where was the terrain response on the Defender? I know my Xtreme had it buy I also know its an option these days..

Rob

There is no Terrain response on the Defender - it has a pre-set traction control that is approximately set to the level of the on-road TC in a D3/D4/RRS. When one wheel (in this instance the rear passenger) is fully loaded and the other side is completely off the ground, the TC isn't aggressive enough to provide power to the grounded wheel. On slightly shallower wombat holes, it is. The next video in the set shows the Defender's TC working (but haven't uploaded it yet).

Cheers,

Gordon

[101RRS]

Where was the terrain response on the Defender? I know my Xtreme had it buy I also know its an option these days..

Rob

I asked about the apparent lack of traction control over on the RRS UK site where Gordon also posted this :)

[discotwinturbo]

That's an awesome example Gordon......now if the defender came with the terrain response, 3 litre motor, 17 inch rims, with its manly ruggedness, it would be one hell of a weapon.

I would not have believed this outcome without your video.

Brett.....

[Robocop]

I'm aware the defender has TC, I owned a 2004 110 Xtreme before my D4. At the top of that incline the vehicle was crossed up, with the front left & I assume if the driver locked the centre, the rear right spinning. I've been in a similar situation & the TC has assisted.

I also noticed, as I drove a new 110 at the stealership last week, TC is purchased as an option. Did the defender in the video actually have TC installed?

Rob

[gghaggis]

I'm aware the defender has TC, I owned a 2004 110 Xtreme before my D4. At the top of that incline the vehicle was crossed up, with the front left & I assume if the driver locked the centre, the rear right spinning. I've been in a similar situation & the TC has assisted.

I also noticed, as I drove a new 110 at the stealership last week, TC is purchased as an option. Did the defender in the video actually have TC installed?

Rob
You are confusing "Terrain Response" with "Traction Control". The new Puma Defenders come with traction control as standard. They do not have the option for terrain response (none of the Defenders ever had).

The driver was a qualified trainer and knew how to set up the vehicle. It is simply that the Defender's traction control will not _always_ brake the spinning wheel effectively. In some situations it will, in this instance it couldn't. On the other hand, in the RRS, Terrain Response allows you to "program" the aggressiveness of the traction control (amongst other parameters), and in Rock-Crawl the response is similar to a locked diff.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Robocop]

Ok got it, I was of the belief TC was a average 'all purpose' version of TR, I was considering a new defender 110 but I don't think I will now.. A 90 may be on the cards though..

Rob

[BobD]

Gordon,

You should show them the video of the Defender struggling on the big sand hill when both D4's and the RRS just drove straight up! My D4 weighs 2740 kg plus the three people we had, fuel and extra steel spare on the Kaymar bar and we had no trouble getting up any of the sand hills or the tough bits of the Power Line track.

Bob

[DiscoWeb]

[QUOTE=irondoc;1705673

Does this sound normal? Should the car have stalled? Should i have had DSC off?

I would appreciate any comments as i haven't done much offroading in the D4 and my mates have been laughing at me.......

I realise some decent offroad rubber would help....

Cheers
lucas[/QUOTE]

Lucas,

On Sunday, as I was staying in the Blue Mountains I loaded the D3 with 5 kids and mate, so 7 up and had a play around Mt Walker at the back of Lithgow for a few hours.

I was by myself so did not want to tackle anything to silly. but still had a couple of interesting climbs as it was a bit greasy, I run AT tyres, but as I had not packed the compressor did not let any air out so was just running highway pressure.

I was climbing some steep sections under the power lines, for those that know the area I was in Rock Crawl, DSC (DEFINITELY OFF) and low range 1 or 2.

In the first instance I simply had to back up a bit (not fun with a nervous passenger thinking I am going to kill us all and 5 kids screaming out they are going to die) and get a bit of momentum to climb over a little rock step.

Second was deeper into the power lines and probably a bit more difficult that I recalled from recent trips. Actually need to get our and do a little road building to get up. I managed to stall twice in this section which was new for me but simple enough to restart, check DSC OFF and go again. It took a good 5 mins of mucking around to get up this climb as going back down was not really an option.

Anyway point of the story is;

1. ALWAYS CHECK DSC OFF
2. Momentum is your friend - with in reason.
3. Rock Crawl is best when it get tough.

George

[PhilipA]

That Defender did not appear to have any traction control working to me, though I am not a TC expert.
I would have expected the same as the RRS, the unloaded wheel to be braked on and off, and that did not seem to happen at any time.

Regards Philip A

[BobD]

That Defender did not appear to have any traction control working to me, though I am not a TC expert.
I would have expected the same as the RRS, the unloaded wheel to be braked on and off, and that did not seem to happen at any time.

Regards Philip A

See Gordon's response re TC earlier in this thread.

On another bit of muddy track on the same drive where the axles were not so badly crossed up you could see the traction control working on the lifted front wheel of the Defender. However, in the video, with two diagonal wheels with zero traction, the TC was not agressive enough to do much, as Gordon said.

Bob

[PhilipA]

I wonder if the Traction Control considered the pads likely to overheat and bugged out, or whether the pads did actually overheat and fade.

It certainly looked pretty unimpressive to me. I cannot see that the TC on a Defender should be any less effective than an RRS , although the RRS will spend much more of its life with wheels in the air! Of course the RRS has much bigger discs . Maybe that is why they need them and the 18inch wheels.

I recall that this overheat problem was discussed quite a bit a few years ago, and I wonder if there is a warning that it is happening on the dash.
Regards Philip A

[scarry]

It also should be noted that the TC on the Puma defender has been changed for the last couple of years.I don't know the full storey,but others will probably chime in with their knowlege.

It would also be interesting to know if the deefer in the vid was the later generation.

It was a very good vid showing the differences in the vehicles.As a matter of interest did the D4's do the run as easily as the RRS?


There is also another very good vid of Gordons showing the difference between a D3 & a D4 on the same line going through some wombat holes.Can't seem to find it ATM.

[BobD]

PhilipA, did you read Gordon's explanation? He explained what the difference is between Rock Crawl on a D4 or RRS and the Defender traction contol.

Bob

[Robocop]

Yeah Scarry that's why I was interested in the thread, my deefer was only stopped when all four wheels had no traction..

[TerryO]

love my D3, it's a great bit of gear with lots of amazing gadgets, as are all D3/4' and RRS's. Having said that I bet my good old Mountain Goat Twin locked D1 would often be able to go places a D3/4/RRS would sometimes struggle to go.

And best of all if I wreck a door against atree I can buy another one for $50 so your inclined to try harder to see what the true limits are.

As I said I love my D3 but for all you guys who have never driven a modified D1 or similar why not try and find some one who will let you have a serious drive off road in one.

You may find out how different and much good fun it is to take a more active role in driving your 4x4 rather then just having to make sure You have DSG turned off and the Terrian Responce knob turned to the correct position.

I think if the bloke in the Defender had been running the correct tyre pressures for the situation then he may have found it a bit easier. I learn't that lesson early on when trying to follow Scouse in his trusty hovercraft RRC.

By the way in case someone takes it the wrong way I'm not actually trying to be smart or insulting in what I have said.

Cheers,
Terry

[101RRS]

But Terry you are talking about a highly modifed vehicle (your D1) compared to a "standard" vehicle.

I am sure a twin locked, muddy equipped, lifted D1 will cover rough ground better than a fairly standard RRS/D3/D4 but a standard D1 won't.

Garry

[TerryO]

A standard D3/4 already comes with a optional 2" lift kit fitted and a e-diff terrain response fitted late model Disco has to be roughly the same if not better in off road spec to a locked and lifted D1.

What Terrain Response does is take most of the driver input out of the equasion, in fact it's there to make them as close to dummy proof as possible for people with little to no off road driving skills.

If anything that just backs up my point about people actually trying off road a vehicle that requires real driver input rather then letting a computer make all the decisions for you other than turning the steering wheel.

A locked D1 still requires lots of driver input, the only software that makes a decision in a D1 is what you have between your ears. That is what I'm trying to say is if you can give it a go, I believe it is even more fun and much more challenging.

Cheers,
Terry

[Tinto]

A locked D1 still requires lots of driver input, the only software that makes a decision in a D1 is what you have between your ears. That is what I'm trying to say is if you can give it a go, I believe it is even more fun and much more challenging.

Cheers,
Terry

Definitely worth doing and depending on your perspective it can make you really appreciate the assist technology or be frustrated by it.

The same notion applies to many different pastimes where technology can seem intrusive like Photography, Motorsport etc.

I think it is the case of finding the right tool for the job that matches the effort you fancy putting in to get your enjoyment. I'd never go so far as to say one is better than the other as we're not all the same.

[BobD]

Very true Terry. If I want to have fun (which is most of the time) I take my old 6.5 Chev diesel powered GQ Patrol with 2" lift and 33" Wrangler MTR tyres and no lockers out on the tracks. If I want to tour in comfort and safety and still hit the tracks on the way or at the end I take the D4.

That is not to say the D4 is not fun off road but the Patrol is usually more challenging except in soft sand hills.

As an example, I took my Patrol up the same section of track that you saw on the video the next day with my son in his D1. It didn't do more than slightly lift one wheel and there was no slipping or spinning wheels etc. I just took it slowly through and there was no problem at all, just like Gordon's RRS.

In answer to one of the questions someone asked, we didn't take the D4's through that section of track because our trainer (Gordon) asked us to do the slightly easier track next to it that the Defender ended up taking in the video. However, Gordon may put up the video of my D4 (the grey one in the video) tackling a deep hole with water in it and lots of articulation required a bit further along the track. Even though the front wheel was 500 mm off the ground it turned at the same speed as the other wheels on the ground and I couldn't believe how easily the car went through the section. The only mishap was a scratched ECB bullbar as it scraped on the ground at one stage.

Bob

[DiscoWeb]

What Terrain Response does is take most of the driver input out of the equasion, in fact it's there to make them as close to dummy proof as possible for people with little to no off road driving skills.

A locked D1 still requires lots of driver input, the only software that makes a decision in a D1 is what you have between your ears. That is what I'm trying to say is if you can give it a go, I believe it is even more fun and much more challenging.

Cheers,
Terry

I think one of the issues is that the D3/D4 straight from the showroom is so good that it potentially lets you get into situations that then requires you to have your wits about you.

At that point you start to realise that you need more than just the TR to get you out of trouble and if you make a mistake it starts getting costly.

A bog standard D1 off the floor would have stopped long before the D3/D4 and as such you have to be keen and or prepared to mod your 4wd to then go further at which point, it would be safe to assume that you either have done it a few time and have a rough idea about what you are doing.

The one thing that saves most D3/D4 owners is that very few will really (and I include myself) take them to the point of no return because :

1. They are not actually aware how capable they are;
2. They are more aware that they are driving a 4WD they drop $70k+ on and do not want to bend it.

Regardless of them being fool proof and too easy they are awesome. And with a bit of driver training, doing some trips with people who know what they are doing you can learn how to drive them responsible and not just rely on the TR.

What always make me smile after a hard day on the tracks is that I can take the same vehicle I was pushing up some seriously tough tracks, kick it into drive and all of a sudden I am back in my 7 seat luxury "Double Bay tractor" and apart form some mud and the odd pin strip no one is any the wiser except me !!!

Plus I enjoy the drive too and from the tracks more than in a 2 in lifted D1 with muddies !

George

[gghaggis]

What Terrain Response does is take most of the driver input out of the equasion, in fact it's there to make them as close to dummy proof as possible for people with little to no off road driving skills.

If anything that just backs up my point about people actually trying off road a vehicle that requires real driver input rather then letting a computer make all the decisions for you other than turning the steering wheel.

A locked D1 still requires lots of driver input, the only software that makes a decision in a D1 is what you have between your ears. That is what I'm trying to say is if you can give it a go, I believe it is even more fun and much more challenging.

Cheers,
Terry

A short story ........... :)

I had a modified D1 when I bought my first D3. Quite modified. 4" lift. 35" muddies. Hardened axles, CV joints. Methanol injection (diesel). Front and rear air-lockers. Defender transfer case. A few other little bits and bobs (apologies to BobD!).

We used this as a comp machine, and for playing hard down south - some of the older WA members would remember it. It was nicknamed "The Tractor". Another member on here, RichardK, had a similar-specc'd Rangie Classic, although with smaller tyres and a V8. We both bought our D3's at approximately the same time.

The first time we took our (bog standard) D3's down to our favourite forest tracks through Harvey/Brunswick, we were really impressed with just how far we could go, on the same tracks we ran in the modified trucks. Obviously ground-clearance (and wheelbase) were the limiting factors, but traction certainly wasn't. We were pretty green in terms of using the D3's technology, but we knew how to drive.

Over time I decided to modify the D3 too - not anywhere near the same extent as the D1, but added the 2" lift via shortened rods, 33" Super Swamper muddies, various bits of body and underbody protection. I ran this as a comp machine and sold the D1. I pushed it hard - as hard as I did the D1, for around 2 1/2 years until it was stolen. As I had no intention of selling it, it's depreciation wasn't a concern. What I learnt was:

the D1 was nowhere near as reliable as the D3. We averaged a CV or diff or axle every two comps or so in the D1. I broke one CV in the D3 in 3 years.
To go hard, you needed to _really_ know how to use the various electronic aids. It wasn't just "dial and drive".
The D3 easily won its class in most comps. The D1 rarely did.
The ride home was pure class, compared to the D1


So to the moral of the story. Yes, pushing a modified vehicle to its limits pushes the driver, as well as the components. Unsurprisingly, this is the case even if the modified vehicle is a D3 - it's just that there aren't many of them around yet. The _type_ of thinking is different. In the D1 you had to out-think the terrain. In the D3 you had to out-think the software. In both cases, it takes a fair bit of talent!
(Sorry, last bit should read "In the D3 you had to out think the software as well as the terrain")

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

I never said one was better than the other, both are different in how they do what they do and both offer different driving experiences. What I was saying is maybe more people who own D3/4/RRS's needed to try both sides if they had a chance.

As I said at the beginning I love the D3, it is a great bit of gear and believe it or not the D1 isn't the only Disco I like to take off road. I have recently purchased a ARB winch bar for the D3, have had a Llams kit and a set of 17's with STT's fitted for a while and I will be making a number of other purchases of off road gear to make the D3 more practical for both one day and longer off road trips.

Out of the three Disco's we have the one that leaves me uninspired for off road usuage is the D2a. As daft as it sounds it is neither a D1 or a D3 so it has ended up being the everyday driver.

cheers,
Terry

[101RRS]

I never said one was better than the other

Yes you did - we have it in writing. :D

[TerryO]

Yes you did - we have it in writing. :D

Bugger! ...I hoped no one would notice ;)


Cheers,
Terry :angel:

[Meccles]

Having built a very special RRC with lockers and kept for 13 years, a D1 locked and good rubber, a 100 Series Cruiser, is that my RRS goes places on 20"s with street rubber they couldn't. But, you have to know the car and electronics just like you had to know to lock the centre diff of RRC before you got into trouble, rather than when you were stuck. The electronics are fantastic but am sure to get the most out of the car, given all the combinations, permutations etc really requires knowledge, interest, and input. The looks from the Toyo's/Nissans etc seeing a stock TDV8 RRS on 20"s on their turf doing the same easily will be remembered. Long after issues of battery going dead every few months is laughed away. And the drive home is just awesome.

[TerryO]

So Meccles, would you take you RRS everywhere off the beaten track you would take you RRC?

As I said a door or a guard for a D1 is $50 if you need to replace because of damage, the cost of repairing a late model Disco or RRS is horrendous in comparison and most often then not a modded D1 is a weekend toy where as a much newer LR is the daily driver, so most wouldn't risk damaging it to much, this in it self is self limiting.

While there are plenty of very capable D3/4/RRS out there few owners would risk them where a D1/RRC would think nothing of going. Plus a D3/4 has terrible overhang compared to a D1 so again the newer Disco is more susceptable to damage going down larger drop off's etc.

again I'm not saying one is better than the other, rather I am of the opinion you are more likely to go places in a Modded early Disco or RRC that the vast majority wouldn't in a late model LR.

for me half the fun of going off road is going out to chalenging places with other like minded souls in vehicles with similar capabilities, that isn't that hard to find if you have a early Modded LR.

Cheers,
Terry

[Stuart02]

Horses for courses, but surely the D3/4 is a more flexible allrounder? I'd argue that keeping a dedicated bush-basher is more of a luxury than having one car to do all...

[ozscott]

Interesting vid. I was looking to the right rear wheel spinning and could not detect it in any of the runs. It's not hard to forget to lock. I have seen defenders do that sort of slippery climb no probs . It odd but the RRS did well nonetheless. I wonder if .LR wussed up the .TC on the Puma due to some drivetrain weaknesses. My d2 had aggressive ETC in low range BECAUSE it had no CDL so when I retrofitted CDL it made it magic. Mine certainly seems to brake the wheels on full articulation more than the Puma appeared to do in that vid


Cheers

[TerryO]

Horses for courses, but surely the D3/4 is a more flexible allrounder? I'd argue that keeping a dedicated bush-basher is more of a luxury than having one car to do all...

Absolutely a D3/4 is a far more flexible all rounder, that's beyond a doubt, but consider this you can buy a heavilly modded D1 or RRC bush basher on average for less than a new colour coded Bull bar, Warn winch, UHF radio and a second set of either 17" or 18" wheels with decent off road tyres for a D3/4.

If you add in the cost of a rear wheel carrier, long range tank, Llams kit, Dual battery kit, Spotties, Rock Sliders and a snorkel then a heavilly modded D1/RRC is looking like a bit of a bargain rather than a luxury.

Plus you have a second vehicle to drive when your 3.0 D4/RRS is in getting its turbo's replaced under warranty. ...;)

Cheers,
Terry

[Stuart02]

Plus you have a second vehicle to drive when your 3.0 D4/RRS is in getting its turbo's replaced under warranty. ...;)

Cheers,
Terry[/QUOTE]

Haha :)

[Stuart02]

Interesting vid. I was looking to the right rear wheel spinning and could not detect it in any of the runs. It's not hard to forget to lock. I have seen defenders do that sort of slippery climb no probs . It odd but the RRS did well nonetheless. I wonder if .LR wussed up the .TC on the Puma due to some drivetrain weaknesses. My d2 had aggressive ETC in low range BECAUSE it had no CDL so when I retrofitted CDL it made it magic. Mine certainly seems to brake the wheels on full articulation more than the Puma appeared to do in that vid

Cheers

Yeah my D2 with retrofitted CDL was the same - it almost kicked sometimes... That Puma is very tame...

[ozscott]

Intertesting to hear mate. Cheers

[Meccles]

My RRC was the one and only vehicle in the house for nearly 12 years. It was modified primarily to be a reliable, comfortable, quick (relative in todays terms) family car that also took the family to Fraser/bush etc. The off road mods were to primarily make any off road trip as less stressful as possible not just to me, but to SWMBO. It was as expensive in todays terms as the RRS, we never purposely took it to places to get it scratched, however, we did go to places that getting there sometimes entailed scratches/bent panels. Same with the RRS. It is our primary car, yes I took it to Landcruiser Mountain Park as I am un familiar with its capabilities. If going to a destination calls for serious off road work, if the destination warrants, I will take it and go. But I don't go off road for fun/entertainment. So having a car just for going bush doesn't make sense for me (this does not apply to all of course). I drive the RRS because it is such a good everyday driver, I can get caught in awful weather, or on poor roads, carry lots of cargo, good fuel economy, + if and when needed, real capability on tracks that I have used before, and will go on again. Plus new destinations that may need 4wd to get there. And, as bonus, a real hoot to drive everyday on normal roads.

[Dirty3]

THis is a really interesting thread. I went out last weekend with a group of "other - non LR" vehicles. Allw as going well till we came to a hill that we all had trouble getting up. Sticky clay! Anyway to cut to the chase, this is the first time my D3 has ever really struggled. I know my tyres are getting low on tread, but I just couldnt get traction. Pressures down to 20. Mostly I was in Mud/Ruts TR setting. Tried Roackcrawl. But I did inadvertantly forget to turn DSC off. Don't know if it would of helped. Usually I just go real slow and let the car do the work, but even this didnt help. Had the tyres smoking at one stage too, trying to get momentum. I didnt use the auto in Drive (as i rarely do - just shift it manually) so maybe this may have helped get the momentum going. The last hill of the day i was going fine till I stopped to let car in front get ahead as I had caught up. That small stop buggered me and no traction. A little push from mates behind was all it took to inch forward and get going again. Maybe time for new tyres. :bangin: