Which European " discovered" Australia - not Cook

[bob10]

March, 1606, William Janszoon , in command of 'Duyfken', charted 300 km. of the west coast of cape York peninusula, Qld. and is currently recognised as the first authentic European "discoverer" of Australia.[ It was here for a long time before that, as the beche-de-mer harvesters of Asia were aware] After Janszoon, came such Europeans as Torres, hartog, Pelsaert, Dampier and Cook. I'm sure I have looked over a replica of Duyfken, which was sailed around Aus. a couple of years ago, & if that is the same vessel that janszoon sailed from Europe, then I take my hat off to them. Bob

[Defender Mike]

Spanish captain Torres passed through the strait bearing his name in the same year 1606 on his way to Manila. A Spanish helmet is supposed to have been found in a cave on Prince of Wales island in the 1960's. How he knew he could pass through this treacherous area will remain a mystery but some believe he had maps from previous Spanish expiditions. My favorite explorer from this era is William Dampier and the stories of his voyages can be downloaded from the net for free. There were many visitors to The great south land before Captain Cook . I have stood on the cliffs at Steep Point across from Dirk Hartog island and imagined what Hartog and his crew must of thought of this land they had found. It hasnt changed much since those days . William Dampier found the locals a bit hostile and shot one this didnt do the ship wrecked crew of the Zuytdorp much good when they arrived a few years later and it appears they were all killed in a massive battle some miles inland . The leyland Brothers found the site on one of their first expeditions many skulls of both indigenous and european with either bullet or axe wounds depending on which team they batted for. Yes its an interesting place with many more wrecks and treasures to be found in the years to come.
Mike:)

[d3syd]

Those early explorers amaze me. What they did was akin to travelling to another planet. If something when wrong it was up to their own resourcefulness and wit to survive.

Just think what when through Cook's mind when he holed his boat off Cape Tribulation and had to limp into the Endevour River for repairs.

[bob10]

There is some speculation that China was here long before any of them. Gavin Menzies, in his book," 1421, The year China discovered Australia ", argues that point. Other scholars, however, dispute that. Bob

[bee utey]

The quibble is about the word "discovered". Cookie boy was the first to unambiguously map in detail enough of Australia to show its existence to the people who mattered, the English crown. I believe Cook would have carried maps from any earlier explorers with him. He was also the first explorer to carry chronometers to accurately set the longitude of the east coast. Others may have found bits of Oz but Cook discovered Oz in the military/political sense.

And to this day WA and QLD people imagine they are somehow different from the SE Australians because of these earlier lost and found attempts.:wasntme:

Also don't forget Matthew Flinders being the first person to map once around Australia and Tasmania, his map is the first to actually call this land "Australia". :)

[mojo]

And to this day WA and QLD people imagine they are somehow different from the SE Australians because of these earlier lost and found attempts.:wasntme:


Can't speak for the westerners, but I wouldn't necessarily say we Queenslanders think we're different from the rest of you lot. Just superior in every way (looks, intelligence, sporting prowess etc) :D

Cheers
Sean

[Ean Austral]

From what I have read , what Bee utey say is correct, the main reason Cook was so successful was that he worked out how to chart longitute, which enabled him to visit the same places time and time again. He was also very well respected by the native's of countries he visited because he was always generous with gifts if his ship and crew were looked after.

Captain Bligh, and mathew flinders learnt their trade of navigation from Cook and if you read what Bligh did when they were set adrift in the long boat from the mutinee on the bounty , it has to be 1 of the greatest feats of seamanship ever.

If you look at the charts that Flinders did on his trip around Australia, they are some of the most acurate Navigation charts ever produced. Remember he was only in his 20's when he did alot of that.

The main thing the Pom's also did was travel with a couple of war ships in their convoys and never hesitated to board vessels and remove the captains Charts of area's they hadn't been, so it wasn't all their own
doing.

You have to also admire the fact that when they set out on these journeys they did so with the knowledge they wouldn't be home for years, not month's or days as we do in todays society.

The Pom's also became known as Limey's because of Cook, as he was 1 of the only people who sailed with Lime's on a ship as he believed it would stop Scurvy, and low and behold, from what I have read, Cook never had crew suffer or die from scurvy.

Doesn't really matter who it was, you have to admire them all, as they definately came from the age when ," Ships were made of wood, and Men were made of Steel..

Cheers Ean

[wrinklearthur]

Can't speak for the westerners, but I wouldn't necessarily say we Queenslanders think we're different from the rest of you lot. Just superior in every way (looks, intelligence, sporting prowess etc)

Looking - for thinking intelligence - in - Queensland sporting prowess ?
:angel:

[JDNSW]

There is some speculation that China was here long before any of them. Gavin Menzies, in his book," 1421, The year China discovered Australia ", argues that point. Other scholars, however, dispute that. Bob

Gavin's book is a very good example of using selective data and ignoring anything that does not fit your preconceived ideas. A couple of examples - in different parts of the book he postulates a higher sea level than at present, and a lower sea level - at the same time!

A further example of the strength of his evidence is that he claims that the Chinese discovered the gold fields in the Orange area by using the Hawkesbury - Nepean river system to penetrate the Great Dividing Range simply by sailing upstream. Anyone who is familiar with these rivers is aware just ludicrous this is.

It is quite possible, however, that Chinese did touch the Australian coast in this period, although there is little evidence to support it.

What Cook did was to map and describe the east coast, showing that it was a single large continent, and describing for the first time a part of Australia that had some attraction to Europeans. (The rest of the coast looks pretty miserable to anyone from Europe!)

It needs to be borne in mind that up until about Cook's time, the general attitude was that European explorer's results were considered state secrets. Which meant that many of the results were lost. This is particularly the case for Portugese explorers, where all reports, maps etc were legally required to be kept only in the state archives in Lisbon, which were totally destroyed in the 1755 earthquake. About the time of Cook, the British government realised that with British ships being dominant in trade, the advantage to the country of all these having good maps was greater than the disadvantage of potential enemies also having them, so publication of maps and exploration results was encouraged. With other countries not so open, the credit for 'discovery' generally went to the English explorers, similar to that for scientific discoveries, where the 'discovery' goes to the first to publish.

John

[Don 130]

And what about this? A mystery that still hasn't been adequately explaned.

The “Mahogany Ship” is one of Australia’s most intriguing and enduring shipwreck mysteries.

In 1836, two survivors of a capsized whaling boat reported sighting a large shipwreck in sand dunes between Warrnambool and Port Fairy. Shipwrecks were not unusual in the area at the time, but the reported construction of dark timber, possibly mahogany, and the ship’s hull design were vastly different from the vessels which sailed the local waters in the early 19th century.


Don.

[JDNSW]

And what about this? A mystery that still hasn't been adequately explaned.

The “Mahogany Ship” is one of Australia’s most intriguing and enduring shipwreck mysteries.

In 1836, two survivors of a capsized whaling boat reported sighting a large shipwreck in sand dunes between Warrnambool and Port Fairy. Shipwrecks were not unusual in the area at the time, but the reported construction of dark timber, possibly mahogany, and the ship’s hull design were vastly different from the vessels which sailed the local waters in the early 19th century.


Don.

Best guess, Portugese - see my above post for why this is unlikely to be resolved (unless the ship is rediscovered).

A complicating factor would be that Australia was close to the boundary between the halves of the world allocated to Spain and Portugal under the treaty of Tordesillas of 1494 following on the papal bulls Aeteri regis and Inter caetera of 1481 and 1493. Or perhaps more accurately the Treaty of Zaragosa (1529) that agreed on the antimeridian. Since determaination of longitude was pretty iffy in those days, both countries tended to get upset about any of the other's activities near the demarcation meridians. The Zaragosa line cuts through eastern Australia.

John

[KarlB]

A little confusion about James Cook in this thread. Cook made three major voyagers. The first (1768-71) was on the HMS Endeavour and it is on this voyage that he made Australia landfall in Botany Bay, and on which he mapped much of the east coast of Australia. On this voyage he did not have a chronometer and was reliant on lunar distance navigation. On his second (1772-75) and third voyages (1776-79) commanding HMS Resolution, he had the benefit of a chronometer (K1). The chronometer was made by Larcum Kendall and was a copy of John Harrison’s H4 chronometer. Cook sang the chronometer’s praises loudly. On his second and third voyages Cook passed well to the south of Australia. On his first voyage, Cook’s naval rank was lieutenant, though by the time of his second and third voyages he had been promoted to captain.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[Ean Austral]

A little confusion about James Cook in this thread. Cook made three major voyagers. The first (1768-71) was on the HMS Endeavour and it is on this voyage that he made Australia landfall in Botany Bay, and on which he mapped much of the east coast of Australia. On this voyage he did not have a chronometer and was reliant on lunar distance navigation. On his second (1772-75) and third voyages (1776-79) commanding HMS Resolution, he had the benefit of a chronometer (K1). The chronometer was made by Larcum Kendall and was a copy of John Harrison’s H4 chronometer. Cook sang the chronometer’s praises loudly. On his second and third voyages Cook passed well to the south of Australia. On his first voyage, Cook’s naval rank was lieutenant, though by the time of his second and third voyages he had been promoted to captain.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

Gday Karl,

Interesting, because the last book I read on Bligh, he is quoted as saying that when he was on the Resolution with Cook, on the first voyage ( Cook's 2nd ) they visited Tasmania ( I think port arthur area) and comments on the "Natives fire's" that they could see burning of the night on shore but never seen them during the day, When Bligh returned years later he visited the same area and went ashore to get wood for repair's and encountered the "Native's" face to face.

It say's Cook sailed from tasmania to New zealand on his first voyage on the resolution.. So where the author got his info I am unsure, but comment was made that the Chronometer was what enabled him to find the same sheltered bay.

Reguardless, they were amazingly skilled people, and having learnt to use a Sextant myself, am still in awe of how good they were.

Cheers Ean

[jc109]

Anyone here who's looked closely at certain charts of our coastline might have also noticed the names Flinders or Bligh printed on them. It's amazing to think that those guys did such a great job that we can still rely on their efforts for safe navigation.

[101RRS]

Of course it was Tasman (150 years before Cook) who discovered Tasmania and mapped most of its southen coast as well as lot of Australia's southern coast and went on to discover NZ mapping most of the west coast of NZ. Cook had all these maps and when he did not find Terra Australis Incognito he decided to fill in the blanks on the Tasman's maps.

The rest is history as they say and school kids certainly well past my vintage were all taught that Cook discovered Australia with virtually no reference to the other explorers who were here some 150-200years earlier.

Cook was not the first to use the chronometer as it was being introduced for use in the Royal Navy at the time but Cook was the first to use the new process of finding longitude in remote areas well away from Greenwich.

Garry

[bussy1963]

Before time began to be recorded, the Ganai-Kurnai peoples occupied Gippsland.
1536
The Dauphine Map is drawn by French cartographers, based on Portuguese charts. When this map is realigned it shows a section of the Gippsland coast around Point Hicks.
1606
1 May: de Quiros discovers "Australia del Espiritu Santo".
1616
25 Oct: Dirk Hartog lands on Dirk Hartog Island, off Shark Bay, WA.
1642
24 Nov: Abel Tasman discovers Van Diemens Land. Then sails to New Zealand, around the northern coast of New Guinea and around the northern coast of Australia.

[KarlB]

Gday Karl,

Interesting, because the last book I read on Bligh, he is quoted as saying that when he was on the Resolution with Cook, on the first voyage ( Cook's 2nd ) they visited Tasmania ( I think port arthur area) and comments on the "Natives fire's" that they could see burning of the night on shore but never seen them during the day, When Bligh returned years later he visited the same area and went ashore to get wood for repair's and encountered the "Native's" face to face.

It say's Cook sailed from tasmania to New zealand on his first voyage on the resolution.. So where the author got his info I am unsure, but comment was made that the Chronometer was what enabled him to find the same sheltered bay.

Reguardless, they were amazingly skilled people, and having learnt to use a Sextant myself, am still in awe of how good they were.

Cheers Ean

Yes, I had forgotten Ean, and you have steered me in the right direction. Cook's main task on the second voyage was to establish the existence or other wise of the mysterious Terra Australis and to revisit New Zealand. At one point he sailed a little south of the Antarctic Circle (66.6 degrees south latitude). However he did not visit Tasmania. It was Cook's third Voyage that William Bligh was on (he was the Master). And they did visit Tasmania. They landed at Adventure Bay to get fresh water at the end of January 1777.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[bob10]

Looking - for thinking intelligence - in - Queensland sporting prowess ?
:angel:

how can you not look at a Qld. Rugby forward & say, verity, there goest a man of distinction, one who will achieve great things, and change the world around him for the better? And not look at a VFL player & say--- Druggie!Bob

[Tank]

From what I have read , what Bee utey say is correct, the main reason Cook was so successful was that he worked out how to chart longitute, which enabled him to visit the same places time and time again. He was also very well respected by the native's of countries he visited because he was always generous with gifts if his ship and crew were looked after.

Captain Bligh, and mathew flinders learnt their trade of navigation from Cook and if you read what Bligh did when they were set adrift in the long boat from the mutinee on the bounty , it has to be 1 of the greatest feats of seamanship ever.

If you look at the charts that Flinders did on his trip around Australia, they are some of the most acurate Navigation charts ever produced. Remember he was only in his 20's when he did alot of that.

The main thing the Pom's also did was travel with a couple of war ships in their convoys and never hesitated to board vessels and remove the captains Charts of area's they hadn't been, so it wasn't all their own
doing.

You have to also admire the fact that when they set out on these journeys they did so with the knowledge they wouldn't be home for years, not month's or days as we do in todays society.

The Pom's also became known as Limey's because of Cook, as he was 1 of the only people who sailed with Lime's on a ship as he believed it would stop Scurvy, and low and behold, from what I have read, Cook never had crew suffer or die from scurvy.

Doesn't really matter who it was, you have to admire them all, as they definately came from the age when ," Ships were made of wood, and Men were made of Steel..

Cheers Ean
Quote: "The Pom's also became known as Limey's because of Cook, as he was 1 of the only people who sailed with Lime's on a ship as he believed it would stop Scurvy, and low and behold, from what I have read, Cook never had crew suffer or die from scurvy."

Cooks remedy for Scurvy on his ships was Sauerkraut (pickled Cabbage), the crew
hated the taste and would not eat it. So Cook ordered all the officers (including Midshipmen) to eat it with each meal and pretend that they were enjoying it. When the crew seen their officers eating it they thought that if the upper class enjoyed this food then they would also partake of it. They had lime juice as well but Sauerkraut was the staple diet for Scurvy, Regards Frank.

[Hall]

There is even evidence of a Phoenician wreck that had been found along the W.A coast. http://secretvisitors.wordpress.com/category/finds/shipwreck/ (http://http://secretvisitors.wordpress.com/category/finds/shipwreck/)
That puts finding Australia by other than the Aborigines a long long time ago.
Cheers Hall

[JDNSW]

Quote: "The Pom's also became known as Limey's because of Cook, as he was 1 of the only people who sailed with Lime's on a ship as he believed it would stop Scurvy, and low and behold, from what I have read, Cook never had crew suffer or die from scurvy."

Cooks remedy for Scurvy on his ships was Sauerkraut (pickled Cabbage), the crew
hated the taste and would not eat it. So Cook ordered all the officers (including Midshipmen) to eat it with each meal and pretend that they were enjoying it. When the crew seen their officers eating it they thought that if the upper class enjoyed this food then they would also partake of it. They had lime juice as well but Sauerkraut was the staple diet for Scurvy, Regards Frank.

Cook sailed on his first voyage with a variety of preventatives for scurvy, but as Frank says, the one that he mainly used was sauerkraut. As a result, this voyage was the first round the world (or indeed any long distance) voyage with not a single case of scurvy. (Most of his deaths resulted from a stay in Batavia (now Jakarta)).

The back story is interesting. In 1740, George Anson led a round the world expedition against the Spanish, which was eventually the most financially successful British voyage in history. But by the time the fleet reached its first rendezvous at Juan Fernandez Id, they had lost two thirds of their crews to scurvy, and losses continued at this rate for the rest of the four year voyage, reduced to one out of eight ships, largely as a result of the loss of men. Anson became First Lord of the Admiralty until his death in 1762, but by then he had instituted the research into prevention of scurvy that culminated in Cook's trials and success.

After the results of these tests were assessed, lemon juice was adopted by the RN as the standard antiscorbutic, but this was changed to lime juice in those areas where this was more readily available (lemon juice is actually better, but it took a long time to recognise that handling and storage of the juice were even more important).

Cook was not the first captain to carry out experiments along these lines, but he was the first who was able (because of his command abilities) and willing to make sure that the tests were carried out properly, and properly documented. As well as being probably the most meticulous hydrographic mapper and navigator ever, he was also one of the most capable naval leaders ever.

John

[roverrescue]

Just for an out of interest:
A replica of the Duyfken was tied up at the Cooktown whard for the
June long weekend Cook Festival just gone

We went out in the boat on monday night and motored past her - awe inspiring to imagine chugging that thing across the planet!

ps: surely one of the most astounding stories of early Australian navigation would be Flinders after he did his lap enroute home - shipwrecked at Wreck/Cato Reef rowing to Sydney to pick up a ship to sail back to rescue the shipwrecked crew

If you have ever been out in the deeps - finding one of the reefs or islands is marginally ore difficult than a needle in a haystack!!!! And its not like you just chuck the anchor out while you work out whats going on!

Steve

[superquag]

Just for an out of interest:
A replica of the Duyfken was tied up at the Cooktown whard for the
June long weekend Cook Festival just gone

We went out in the boat on monday night and motored past her - awe inspiring to imagine chugging that thing across the planet!


Steve

Yes indeed, courtesy of 2 diesels hidden below ....:p

[Defender Mike]

Good to see so many are interested in our early explorers. Perhaps its because Landrover owners we are still exploring, today pushing the limits and going to places others never get to see.:D
Mike

[Reads90]

Spanish captain Torres passed through the strait bearing his name in the same year 1606 on his way to Manila. A Spanish helmet is supposed to have been found in a cave on Prince of Wales island in the 1960's. How he knew he could pass through this treacherous area will remain a mystery but some believe he had maps from previous Spanish expiditions. My favorite explorer from this era is William Dampier and the stories of his voyages can be downloaded from the net for free. There were many visitors to The great south land before Captain Cook . I have stood on the cliffs at Steep Point across from Dirk Hartog island and imagined what Hartog and his crew must of thought of this land they had found. It hasnt changed much since those days . William Dampier found the locals a bit hostile and shot one this didnt do the ship wrecked crew of the Zuytdorp much good when they arrived a few years later and it appears they were all killed in a massive battle some miles inland . The leyland Brothers found the site on one of their first expeditions many skulls of both indigenous and european with either bullet or axe wounds depending on which team they batted for. Yes its an interesting place with many more wrecks and treasures to be found in the years to come.
Mike:)

Mm lucky for the aboriginals that they did not claim the land for Spain.

We all know what happen to the aboriginals in the other countries they claimed

[bob10]

On his first voyage, Cook’s naval rank was lieutenant, though by the time of his second and third voyages he had been promoted to captain.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

Cook was promoted Post-Captain 9th August, 1775, his commission personally handed to him by King George 111., after returning from his 2nd voyage on 30 th July. The story of the quest to find a method of measuring longitude accurately is set out in Dava Sobel's book" Longitude", a fascinating read. Harrisons final clock, H4, was copied by Kendall to produce K1,who then went on to produce K2, regarded inferior to H4 because it had no remontoire, a device that doles out the power from the mainspring so the force applied stays the same whether the clock is wound up, or nearly wound down.

K2 went with Bligh on his infamous voyage, & after the mutiny , the crew kept it & sold it to the Captain of an American whaler. Bligh was sailing Master on Cooks final voyage, & went on to be Gov. of NSW. Cook took K1 ,on his final voyage, and legend has it when Cook died, the clock stopped ticking. The romantic in me would like to believe it. Cook had indeed great praise for K1,saying it had only to be corrected by lunar observations now & then. A truly fascinating story! Bob.

[Ean Austral]

Although I have read many books on the fellows mentioned in this thread, and stories differ slightly from book to book, I find it amazing that in a post of 25 odd threads I have learnt more about how Australia was first discovered, than I ever learnt at school.

Maybe its just that 30 yrs later I have more interest in the topic, after spending most of those years at sea, but from memory, all we learnt was about cook landing at Botany bay and then returning years later.

Truely amazing men and its hard to imagine what they must have went thru in their years at sea.

Cheers Ean

[Pedro_The_Swift]

is it just me,,
or were the lower parts of OZ discovered earlier because of the prevailing winds down there??

[mikehzz]

I prefer the lower parts to the upper parts...:o

On another matter, has anyone noticed how the current batch of kids don't know anything about most of these explorers? I could still remember that Hartog was on the west coast even though I learn't it way back. My kids haven't heard of him. The same goes for most of the other explorers.

[bob10]

Anyone here who's looked closely at certain charts of our coastline might have also noticed the names Flinders or Bligh printed on them. It's amazing to think that those guys did such a great job that we can still rely on their efforts for safe navigation.

Another good read is the Klaus Toft book, " The Navigators", the great race between Matthew Flinders and Nicolas Baudin for the North - South Passage through Australia. In 1800 it was rumoured a strait separated the two halves of Australia. Bonaparte , disturbed by the successful British Colony at Sydney, sent the famous French explorer [ some put him in the same league as Cook] Nicolas Baudin & two ships to chart the strait, with a view to claiming the western part for France. In response, the British sent the young and ambitious Matthew Flinders in pursuit in a leaky ship. The race between the two men to discover the rumoured strait resulted in the completion of the charting of the entire Australian coastline. Baudin took back to France a huge collection of plants & animals , which enabled Josephine Boneparte to create her Australian garden, Malmaison, near Paris.

Bonaparte wrongly blamed Baudin for France's failure in the colonisation of the Pacific. The French charting can be seen in names such as -- Bonaparte Archipeligo, Geographe Bay, Recherche Archipelago, and gulf de Carpentarie, among others. Historians colourfully call the race between Baudin & Flinders as greatest Ocean race the World has ever seen. You just can't make this stuff up! The history of Australia is truly fascinating, the deeper you get into it, the better it gets. Bob

[101RRS]

Maybe its just that 30 yrs later I have more interest in the topic, after spending most of those years at sea, but from memory, all we learnt was about cook landing at Botany bay and then returning years later.

When I was at school I was always taught that Cook discovered Australia - we were taught that the place was called New Holland and that there was a plate nailed to a tree in the west but never linked these earlier events with the fact that people must have been here before Cook - how else would Australia have been called New Holland before Cook if he had discovered Aust.

Garry

[It'sNotWorthComplaining!]

There is some speculation that China was here long before any of them. Gavin Menzies, in his book," 1421, The year China discovered Australia ", argues that point. Other scholars, however, dispute that. Bob

If the Chinese didn't discover it then , then they have discovered it now, the sensis says second most common language spoken after english here is cantonese ;)

[It'sNotWorthComplaining!]

When I was at school I was always taught that Cook discovered Australia - we were taught that the place was called New Holland and that there was a plate nailed to a tree in the west but never linked these earlier events with the fact that people must have been here before Cook - how else would Australia have been called New Holland before Cook if he had discovered Aust.

Garry
The lies we were told at school;), we were also told that pluto was a planet.:mad:

our forebears were also told the earth was flat, prior to that the earth was the centre of the universe, In 3000yrs time I wonder what or future generations are taught that is false what we were taught. Maybe that global warming was a myth or something like we were robbed by a carbon tax:p

[Ean Austral]

Another good read is the Klaus Toft book, " The Navigators", the great race between Matthew Flinders and Nicolas Baudin for the North - South Passage through Australia. In 1800 it was rumoured a strait separated the two halves of Australia. Bonaparte , disturbed by the successful British Colony at Sydney, sent the famous French explorer [ some put him in the same league as Cook] Nicolas Baudin & two ships to chart the strait, with a view to claiming the western part for France. In response, the British sent the young and ambitious Matthew Flinders in pursuit in a leaky ship. The race between the two men to discover the rumoured strait resulted in the completion of the charting of the entire Australian coastline. Baudin took back to France a huge collection of plants & animals , which enabled Josephine Boneparte to create her Australian garden, Malmaison, near Paris.

Bonaparte wrongly blamed Baudin for France's failure in the colonisation of the Pacific. The French charting can be seen in names such as -- Bonaparte Archipeligo, Geographe Bay, Recherche Archipelago, and gulf de Carpentarie, among others. Historians colourfully call the race between Baudin & Flinders as greatest Ocean race the World has ever seen. You just can't make this stuff up! The history of Australia is truly fascinating, the deeper you get into it, the better it gets. Bob

In a book I read about flinders, there is an opinion that the 2 ships you speak of were anchored not far from each other near I think Kangaroo Island. The belief was that the spencer gulf continued north and came out in the gulf of carpenteria.
I believe the french went west and flinders east after not finding deep enough water to continue sailing north in the spencer gulf.( I may have the spots slightly wrong, but the general concept is there )

Still today tourist's are amazed when they try and drive to ploaces in Australia, you can image why they couldn/t believe it was all 1 continent.

Cheers Ean

[Ean Austral]

is it just me,,
or were the lower parts of OZ discovered earlier because of the prevailing winds down there??

Think you could be correct there Pedro.

Cheers Ean

[JDNSW]

is it just me,,
or were the lower parts of OZ discovered earlier because of the prevailing winds down there??

The winds for most of the west coast, and especially the southern half, are prevailing from the west Same on the east coast. Since sailing ships do best sailing downwind, it is far more likely for them to encounter the west coast than any other. And this is borne out by the early contact of Europeans with Australia. In fact, most of the early contact with the coast was the result of ships sailing from Capetown to Batavia (Jakarta) by sailing east until they estimated they were in the right place to turn north. This 'right place', is, in fact, very close to the WA coast, and it is hardly surprising that a number of ships were wrecked on the coast.

Ships coming from the west, with a following wind, could easily run along the south coast, although quite a few have been wrecked on the Otway, King Id and Yasmanian coast.

In comparison, the east coast is hard to reach - from about the Queensland border south the wind is still from the west, so to reach the coast ships have to sail to windward. North of there the prevailing wind is SE - but most of the coast is protected by a very dangerous reef, out of sight of land. Torres was extremely lucky to find a way through to Torres Strait - but with the prevailing wind it was probably impossible for him to turn back once he was in among the reefs!

And if you do reach the coast with the SE Trade wind south of the reef, and try to follow the cost south, you have the wind forward of the beam, and you are bucking the East Australia Current.

Cook, with a ship that went to windward better than most earlier explorers, and skillful ship handling, sailed west from NZ to hit the coast at Cape Howe, then followed it north, helped by the current. And even he had a lot of trouble with the reef.

John

[87County]

The Dieppe Maps... (Dauphin Maps)


dieppe maps (http://www.stradbrokeislandgalleon.com/dieppe.html) (the interpretations on the site this link leads to are not necessarily correct!)


It is certainly possible/probable that the Portuguese did visit parts of the eastern/southern coasts prior to Tasman & Cook, and one reason that there are no concrete reports of these other than the obvious secrecy is the possibilty that the visitor(s) never got back home.


However, it is a very long bow indeed to stretch the imagination to reconstruct some of these old maps to conform wth the actual southern and eastern coasts of Australia

A Peter Trickett has done just that .... Beyond Capricorn | Trickett, Peter | 9780975114599 | Australian History - General (http://www.bookworm.com.au/book/beyond-capricorn-9780975114599.aspx)
Beyond Capricorn | Trickett, Peter | 9780975114599 | Australian History - General (http://www.bookworm.com.au/book/beyond-capricorn-9780975114599.aspx)



As JD pointed out in an earlier post in relation to Gavin Menzies' book, these reconstructors of history are quite selective in the choice and interpretation of evidence they use.

[87County]

Here is a scan of all the dieppemaps which can be substantially enlarged on your monitor to examine all the detail - choose the "small"or "medium" to start with

the europe/meditteranean map is very interesting (Folio 8) - in common with other maps north isn't necessarily "up" & the white bits are the sea

the subject map used for the previously discussed historical reconstructs about Oz is (Folio 1)

Digital Scriptorium (http://dpg.lib.berkeley.edu/webdb/dsheh/heh_brf?Description=&CallNumber=HM+29)

[JDNSW]

An interesting point about the discovery of Australia - have a think about the Abrolhos Is. These are credited with being discovered by Houtman in 1619. But the name is Portuguese. One has to wonder why he used a Portuguese name - did he have a clandestine copy of a chart stolen from Lisbon? Not unlikely, there was a thriving trade in stolen discovery secrets involving Dutch mapmakers.

John

[bob10]

In a book I read about flinders, there is an opinion that the 2 ships you speak of were anchored not far from each other near I think Kangaroo Island.

Cheers Ean

Spot on, Ean. I will quote from the book, but first... Flinders is 600 nautical miles from Baudin, sailing into a ferocious storm , leaving spencer gulf heading south. An outline appeared before dusk, and some of his junior officers saw some strange shapes on the ridgeline.They were massive numbers of kangaroos, and were so fearless, Flinders was sure they had never encountered man before. They killed many of them for meat, and Flinders named the island, KANGUROO ISLAND.Meanwhile, Baudin was south of a large strait he knew was there, because he had in his possessionan an English chart drawn up by by two English explorers, George Bass & Matthew Flinders. The scene is set.

" The following day, in what is known today as Encounter Bay, Baudin was greeted by a sight even more amazing. 'We sighted a ship, we were far from thinking any other Europeans in this region..the ship made a signal which we did not understand and so did not answer.She then ran up the English flag & shortened sail' Flinders, too, was shocked, ' On approaching nearer, ...we cleared for action...the stranger was a heavy looking ship...our colours being hoisted, she showed a French Ensign. like fighters, the ships drew closer, flinders saw the French ship hoist a white flag "We veared around ...so as to keep our broadside to her, lest the flag of truce be a deception. Approaching nearer, Flinders saw the ships name, Le Geographe, under the command of Capt Baudin. Baudin was surprised by the next move. fliunders hailed and asked what ship, then what Captain.When Baudin hailed back French, Baudin, Flinders hove to his ship, removed his hat in salute, & instructed his officers to do the same.Baudin & his officers returned the compliment.Baudin & Flinders laid eyes on each other for the very first time, in the middle of the unknown.Flinders lowered a boat, and with an interpreter finally stood face to face with Baudin. [ Baudin had no idea he had a rival, Flinders did. ] I was born 200 years too late God I love this stuff! Bob

[87County]

jD, there is some discussion on this point in the Wikipedia entry...

[Ean Austral]

Spot on, Ean. I will quote from the book, but first... Flinders is 600 nautical miles from Baudin, sailing into a ferocious storm , leaving spencer gulf heading south. An outline appeared before dusk, and some of his junior officers saw some strange shapes on the ridgeline.They were massive numbers of kangaroos, and were so fearless, Flinders was sure they had never encountered man before. They killed many of them for meat, and Flinders named the island, KANGUROO ISLAND.Meanwhile, Baudin was south of a large strait he knew was there, because he had in his possessionan an English chart drawn up by by two English explorers, George Bass & Matthew Flinders. The scene is set.

" The following day, in what is known today as Encounter Bay, Baudin was greeted by a sight even more amazing. 'We sighted a ship, we were far from thinking any other Europeans in this region..the ship made a signal which we did not understand and so did not answer.She then ran up the English flag & shortened sail' Flinders, too, was shocked, ' On approaching nearer, ...we cleared for action...the stranger was a heavy looking ship...our colours being hoisted, she showed a French Ensign. like fighters, the ships drew closer, flinders saw the French ship hoist a white flag "We veared around ...so as to keep our broadside to her, lest the flag of truce be a deception. Approaching nearer, Flinders saw the ships name, Le Geographe, under the command of Capt Baudin. Baudin was surprised by the next move. fliunders hailed and asked what ship, then what Captain.When Baudin hailed back French, Baudin, Flinders hove to his ship, removed his hat in salute, & instructed his officers to do the same.Baudin & his officers returned the compliment.Baudin & Flinders laid eyes on each other for the very first time, in the middle of the unknown.Flinders lowered a boat, and with an interpreter finally stood face to face with Baudin. [ Baudin had no idea he had a rival, Flinders did. ] I was born 200 years too late God I love this stuff! Bob

Very much off the topic, but have read the story of Shackleton Bob. Another amazing feat of seamanship.

Cheers Ean

[bob10]

Very much off the topic, but have read the story of Shackleton Bob. Another amazing feat of seamanship.

Cheers Ean
Agreed, anything about amazing feats of seamanship are never off topic for me. Bob

[DiscoMick]

Didn't various unknown Aboriginal explorers 'discover' Australia anything up to 60,000 years ago, depending on whose carbon dating results you believe?
And were there really kangaroos in the Beijing Zoo in the 15th Century (the same century Beijing became the Chinese capital)?
The Portuguese were all over SE Asia long before the English, and had various bases in the region, particularly in what is now Malaysia. It wouldn't be surprising if they often came too far south trying to navigate around Indonesia to go around Africa and back to Europe.
And, as someone commented above, where did the English get their charts of the region from - the Portuguese and Dutch?
Cook was a late arrival.

[bee utey]

Didn't various unknown Aboriginal explorers 'discover' Australia anything up to 60,000 years ago, depending on whose carbon dating results you believe?


Well this is where the meaning of "discover" comes in. Think "uncover". Think about the publication of maps that are available to anyone who wishes to purchase them. Before a place is discovered there may indeed be locals living there, but they didn't post their home address on twitter...:eek:

[bob10]

Didn't various unknown Aboriginal explorers 'discover' Australia anything up to 60,000 years ago, depending on whose carbon dating results you believe?
.

I think the concept of "discovery "came from Europeans considering themselves the Old World, and everything else out there was New World. And, of course, Europe was considered the centre of the World [ much like now:angel:] Any one who was anyone was into creating Empires back then. But, what fascinates me about Aboriginal settlement is , what art is waiting to be discovered in some unknown cave somewhere? Will there be found a drawing of an ancient ship? Or a fleet of Chinese Junks? There are still questions un-answered. Bob

[manchild21000]

The Australian Citizenship Test - YouTube
This would explain it :) Language warning on the end .
George

[ugu80]

I think the concept of "discovery "came from Europeans considering themselves the Old World, and everything else out there was New World. And, of course, Europe was considered the centre of the World [ much like now:angel:]
Bit off subject, but; Where did the 'Arabic' numbering system come from? (Came to Europe via the Arabs, thus the arabic moniker). Answer - India (thence to the middle east). Indian mathematicians also formulated the concept of zero in maths calculations.
Where did the concept of the sun as the centre of the solar system with the earth planets orbiting come from? The European answer is Copernicus, however, Indian scholars formulated that model 500 years before Copernicus. Indian scholars also calculated the circumference of the earth, with over 99% accuracy, by putting measuring sticks in the ground at differing lattitudes and figuring out from the length of the shadows, when European universities were still teaching that the earth was flat and carried by a giant turtle. Unfortunately, we have a very eurocentric view of the world which doesn't give credit where credit is due.

[JDNSW]

Obviously, discovery can mean different things to different people. But in terms of the discovery of new lands, such as Australia, when speaking from the perspective of an English speaking nation, it would seem to be appropriate to consider as discoverers those who either published their discoveries in English, or in a form that was, at least in theory, available to English speakers.

This explains the emphasis in Australian history of those explorers who reported in English (Dampier, Cook, Drake, Anson etc) with general mention of the Dutch explorers, as their results soon found their way onto charts and globes (usually in the international language of Latin) which were sold internationally. On the other hand, Spanish and Portuguese exploration was, as I pointed out above, regarded as state secrets, and even if they found their way onto Dutch (and later English) maps, it was without attribution, sometimes to avoid informants losing their heads, but always so as to keep clandestine channels open, by avoiding drawing attention to leaks.

As far as Asian discoveries went - India lacked a cohesive way of retaining this sort of information, and probably much of it was regarded as 'commercial-in-confidence'. And China, until the second half of the nineteenth century at least, regarded western civilisation as non-existent and made no efforts to either preserve or pass on this sort of information. And many Chinese records are likely to have been destroyed in various disturbances. (So were a lot of European ones, but the widespread use of printing, introduced at about the same time as exploration started to surge, meant total loss was less common.)

John

[harry]

thanks to all who are posting in this thread,
it is a most interesting topic
i am intrigued with the history and the different visitors to this land before we officially got here.

[bob10]

The Dutch & the Portugese! From the book, "Dutch discoveries of Australia" by JP Sigmond, & H Zuiderbaan, some of the mystery is explained. Dutch merchants sought the lucrative Portugese trade with China, Japan, India, and the Indian Archipelego . The Portugese dominated the sailing routes via the Cape of Good Hope, for more than a century they had succeeded in keeping their route along the south point of Africa a secret. In those hundred years they had established themselves at the most strategic points along this route, preventing the elimination of their monoply . How did the Dutch learn the secret? quite simply in the end. Lisbon was the distribution point for the Portugese trade from Asia To Europe. Dutch sailors , because of the shortage of trained sailors in Portugal, worked their passage on Portugese ships.
Two Dutch sailors of the time stand out, Dirk Gerritsz Pomp, nicknamed Dirk China, and Jan Huygen van Linschoten. Pomp was from Enkuizen, but educated in Lisbon. In 1568 he established himself in Goa, the stronghold of the Portugese in India.From there he undertook at least two voyages to China & Japan.He was Probably the first Dutchman to visit Japan.He placed at Van Linschotens disposal the information he had collected on his journeys.
The theory of an existence of a Southland far preceeded an actual determination of it.The theory was developed by the school of Aristotle, which reasoned there had to be a counter balance in the south to Eurasia in the north. Claudius Ptolemy [ circa 150 AD] who introduced latitude & longitude as a way of determining a position, filled in the blank space with names from his own fantasy like Beach provincia aurifa - the gold producing land [ he wasn't far off ] Now , what has this got to do with the Dutch discovery of Aus. ? Spanish & Portugese sailors, being observant to the ways of the sea, and sea creatures, noticed large flocks of penguins, seals & birds went south each year with the opening of spring , to return in the winter months., It had to be the southland. The Dutch picked up the knowledge, and had a determined look. Fascinating stuff, Bob

[DiscoMick]

That sounds like a very interesting book. I must read more about this stuff.

The influence of China and India is also undeniable, except to those who can't think beyond a Eurocentric viewpoint.

Incidentally, I was amused that the Chinese regarded the early Europeans who reached China as barbarians and ignorant savages, lacking in knowledge and culture. Maybe they were right...

[Ean Austral]

From what I have read,when Bligh set out on Bounty, his mission was to to bring back BREADFRUIT to the mother land.

I guess I could try and Google it , but, with all the knowledge here, im sure someone will tell me what it is.. It said that the voyage was funded by a botanist named Banks, who from the little I did learn at school, sailed on the Endeavour with Cook. It said that most voyage of discovery in those days were actually privately funded, as the british Navy was all but broke.

I know that reading about Bligh has curtainly painted a different picture of the man as the one depicted in the movies about the Mutiny on the Bounty..

Cheers Ean

[Ean Austral]

The Dutch & the Portugese! From the book, "Dutch discoveries of Australia" by JP Sigmond, & H Zuiderbaan, some of the mystery is explained. Dutch merchants sought the lucrative Portugese trade with China, Japan, India, and the Indian Archipelego . The Portugese dominated the sailing routes via the Cape of Good Hope, for more than a century they had succeeded in keeping their route along the south point of Africa a secret. In those hundred years they had established themselves at the most strategic points along this route, preventing the elimination of their monoply . How did the Dutch learn the secret? quite simply in the end. Lisbon was the distribution point for the Portugese trade from Asia To Europe. Dutch sailors , because of the shortage of trained sailors in Portugal, worked their passage on Portugese ships.
Two Dutch sailors of the time stand out, Dirk Gerritsz Pomp, nicknamed Dirk China, and Jan Huygen van Linschoten. Pomp was from Enkuizen, but educated in Lisbon. In 1568 he established himself in Goa, the stronghold of the Portugese in India.From there he undertook at least two voyages to China & Japan.He was Probably the first Dutchman to visit Japan.He placed at Van Linschotens disposal the information he had collected on his journeys.
The theory of an existence of a Southland far preceeded an actual determination of it.The theory was developed by the school of Aristotle, which reasoned there had to be a counter balance in the south to Eurasia in the north. Claudius Ptolemy [ circa 150 AD] who introduced latitude & longitude as a way of determining a position, filled in the blank space with names from his own fantasy like Beach provincia aurifa - the gold producing land [ he wasn't far off ] Now , what has this got to do with the Dutch discovery of Aus. ? Spanish & Portugese sailors, being observant to the ways of the sea, and sea creatures, noticed large flocks of penguins, seals & birds went south each year with the opening of spring , to return in the winter months., It had to be the southland. The Dutch picked up the knowledge, and had a determined look. Fascinating stuff, Bob

Didn't the Portuguese discovery the passage ( terra del fuego ) think it name is something like that, that saved them going around cape Horn and suffering the fate that many suffered doing that trip.
I believe that if it was the wrong time of the season and they mssed the trade winds the ships would have to sail north adding months to the trip, but the portuguese found the striat and were able to round the cape any time.

Cheers Ean

Cheers

[JDNSW]

From what I have read,when Bligh set out on Bunty, his mission was to to bring back BREADFRUIT to the mother land.

I guess I could try and Google it , but, with all the knowledge here, im sure someone will tell me what it is.. It said that the voyage was funded by a botanist named Banks, who from the little I did learn at school, sailed on the Endeavour with Cook. It said that most voyage of discovery in those days were actually privately funded, as the british Navy was all but broke.

I know that reading about Bligh has curtainly painted a different picture of the man as the one depicted in the movies about the Mutiny on the Bounty..

Cheers Ean

The Bounty mission was to transport breadfruit from Tahiti to the West Indies. While promoted by Banks, it was not paid for by him.

Banks did sail on the Endeavour, and Bligh had sailed on Resolution with Cook, both government funded naval expeditions.

As far as I am aware all of the major British voyages of discovery from the eighteenth and nineteenth century were naval expeditions that were funded by the government, although in many cases equipment and sometimes personnel were privately supplied. But discoveries were made by others, particularly whalers and sealers, and occasionally trading vessels, although mostly these only went where there were existing maps!

John

[Ean Austral]

The Bounty mission was to transport breadfruit from Tahiti to the West Indies. While promoted by Banks, it was not paid for by him.

Banks did sail on the Endeavour, and Bligh had sailed on Resolution with Cook, both government funded naval expeditions.

As far as I am aware all of the major British voyages of discovery from the eighteenth and nineteenth century were naval expeditions that were funded by the government, although in many cases equipment and sometimes personnel were privately supplied. But discoveries were made by others, particularly whalers and sealers, and occasionally trading vessels, although mostly these only went where there were existing maps!

John

As I have said, learnt more here than in school, but isn't that life in general

So any idea on what BREADFRUIT is/was.

Cheers Ean

[JDNSW]

As I have said, learnt more here than in school, but isn't that life in general

So any idea on what BREADFRUIT is/was.

Cheers Ean

Artocarpus Altilis, in this context (there are other fruits also with the common name).

It is a tree that produces large fruit with fairly high food value. Native to parts of PNG and SE Asia, it was spread by Polynesians throughout the Pacific and used as a staple diet on many islands, including Tahiti, where it came to the attention of Europeans in the late eighteenth century.

The transport of breadfruit to the West Indies is reported to be a technical success on Bligh's second expedition in the HMS Providence, but a commercial failure, as the slaves it was intended to feed in the West Indies refused to eat this unfamiliar food.

John

[DiscoMick]

From Wikipedia:


One particular historic attempt to round the Horn, that of HMS Bounty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Bounty) in 1788, has been immortalized in history due to the subsequent Mutiny on the Bounty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny_on_the_Bounty). This abortive Horn voyage has been portrayed (with varying historical accuracy) in three major motion pictures about Captain William Bligh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bligh)'s mission to transport breadfruit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breadfruit) plants from Tahiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahiti) to Jamaica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica). The Bounty made only 85 miles of headway in 31 days of east-to-west sailing, before giving up by reversing course and going around Africa. Although the 1984 movie portrayed another decision to go round the Horn as a precipitating factor in the mutiny (this time west-to-east after collecting the breadfruits in the South Pacific), in fact that was never contemplated out of concern for the effect of the low temperatures near the Horn on the plants.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Horn#cite_note-34)

Gavin Menzies in 1421 claimed the Dutch used Chinese maps to find the passage, but that is disputed.

[V8Ian]

Two chronometers the captain had,
One by Arnold that ran like mad,
One by Kendal in a walnut case,
Poor devoted creature with a hangdog face.
Arnold always hurried with a crazed click-click
Dancing over Greenwich like a lunatic,
Kendal panted faithfully his watch-dog beat,
Climbing out of Yesterday with sticky little feet.
Arnold choked with appetite to wolf up time,
Madly round the numerals his hands would climb,
His cogs rushed over and his wheels ran miles,
Dragging Captain Cook to the Sandwich Isles.
But Kendal dawdled in the tombstoned past,
With a sentimental prejudice to going fast,
And he thought very often of a haberdasher's door
And a yellow-haired boy who would knock no more.
All through the night-time, clock talked to clock,
In the captain's cabin, tock-tock-tock,
One ticked fast and one ticked slow,
And Time went over them a hundred years ago.
by Kenneth Slessor, 1931.

[ramblingboy42]

I can't help thinking that somewhere amongst all this "discovery" that Lt James Cook commanded a voyage in a ship called the HMS Discovery. Am I wrong ? anyone shed any light on this?

[ramblingboy42]

I did some research myself and found out the Discovery was built as a collier in 1774 and redesigned by Cook sailed on Cooks 3rd voyage as a consort ship with a crew of 70. Cook never commanded this vessel.

[bob10]

I did some research myself and found out the Discovery was built as a collier in 1774 and redesigned by Cook sailed on Cooks 3rd voyage as a consort ship with a crew of 70. Cook never commanded this vessel.

Spot on. It's well worth looking at the third voyage a little closer .Cook wrote to John Walker at Whitby on 14 Feb. 1776:


" Dear sir,
I should have answered your last favour sooner, but waited to know whether I should go to Greenwich hospital, or the South Sea. The latter is now fixed upon; I expect to be ready to sail about the latter end of April with my old ship the Resolution and the Discovery, the ship lately purchased...I know not what your opinion may be on this step I have taken. It is certain I have quitted an early retirement, for an active, and perhaps dangerous voyage. My present disposition is more favourable to the latter than the former, and I embark on a fair a prospect as I can wish. If I am fortunate enough to get safe home, there is no doubt but it will be greatly to my advantage. ...my best respects to all your family....
Your most sincere friend and humble servant
Jams. Cook "

Departure was delayed, not the least because of Admiralty instruction such as ;
" Admiralty to Navy Board. On additional stores. Both ships to be fitted with a camp forge and copper oven, and have coppers fitted with Irvings [ water distilling] apparatus and lieut. Orsbridge's machine for rendering stinking water sweet. frames of two decked vessels, of about 20 and 17 tons, to be packed in cases for exploring or surveying or any emergency. "
Surely some state of the art technology for 1776! Bob

[bob10]

It is interesting to have a quick look at the Officers Cook selected for the final voyage. From the moment Cook had offered his own service to the expedition , he had one person in mind for 2nd in command, and Captain of the Discovery;

Charlie Clerke
Cook regarded Clerke as cheerful , able, sound , undeviatingly couragous and loved & admired by his fellow officers and the people equally. Sixteen years younger than Cook, he had seen more fighting service. As a young man in action, stationed in the mizzen top, the mast had been shot from under him, he was the only survivor. An endorsement from a fellow Officer was ; "Clerke is a right good Officer. At drinking and Whoring he is as good as the best of them". Thankfully for Cook, Clerke had matured somewhat, & sobered up since that comment.

John Gore
First Lt. of the Resolution. Sailed with Banks to Iceland in the Sir Lawrence. Cook liked this New York born sailor for his Reliability, cheerfulness in adversity, and skill in all branches of marine work., except surveying in which he had no interest nor aptitude, a lee shore was something to avoid, in his reckoning.

James King
2nd Lt. Resolution. King was the best educated , best read, and most intellectual Officer in both ships. Entered the Navy at the age of 12, served in Newfoundland under Palliser, and the Med., promoted Lt. at the age of 21. Studied science in Paris & then Oxford.

John Williamson
3rd Lt Resolution. a contrasting figure, & mystery as to why Cook selected him. An uneven character of the type to make life at sea on a long voyage tiresome & exhausting. His temper could be frightful without any apparent cause, discharged to Discovery at one pont in the voyage. the people rumbled to him within hours of putting to sea, and despised him throughout the voyage.

William Bligh
Sailing Master . Described as another " awkward fellow", Cook was attracted to Bligh by his reputation as a talented navigator, surveyor & cartographer. His unevenness, hasty temper, intolerance & impatience were not to be discerned from a single meeting.Bligh was 22, from a humble background [ not as humble as Cooks] , & while Cook never grew a seedling of a chip on his shoulder, Bligh 's were numerous, & they flourished all his life.

the list is not complete without Molesworth Phillips
Lt of Marines. Bone idle, Slack & amiable.

As usual, it was up to the Sergeant of Marines Samual Gibson to carry the weight.He also had knowledge of the polynesian languages & dialects .Also on the ships were seven Americans, not interested in the war between England and Her Colony.
And so, Cook prepared with his motley crew to find the fabled passage between the Pacific & Atlantic. Bob

[wrinklearthur]

Hmmm, I'd better be on my best behaviour then, otherwise they might just sum me up with only a couple of lines, two hundred and fifty years from now. :unsure:
.

[DiscoMick]

Noticed this pic and thought I'd share it as relevant to this thread.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=48327&stc=1&d=1340679571

[Pedro_The_Swift]

At least I wouldnt've had to change my name---;):p

How do you pronounce DiscoMick in spanish??:lol2:

[DiscoMick]

Disco Mickey according to Google translate.

[VladTepes]

Two things.

One: Nobody discovered Australia - just bits of it. For example, "discovering" part of the WA coastline but knowing nothing about the rest of the country does not comprise discovering a continent.

Two: Mahogany ships, yeah there's supposedly one on Stradbroke Island as well. Most such wrecks which are sighted are sighted by waterlogged (or rum logged) sailors, and others of dubious veracity. Proof? None really. i wish it were true but I doubt any of it is.

[DiscoMick]

Yeah, supposed to be one buried under the beach at Byron Bay, but I've never seen it. And I inspected a copy of an ancient trading junk in a history park in Thailand, so I know how big it would be (bludy huge!!!).

[UncleHo]

G'day Folks :)

Very interesting thread,I note that in post 16 it is noted that landfall was made at point Hicks,although it was a known location, it was named by James Cook after the sailor in the crow's nest that first sighted it,his name was Hicks,that voyage was the offshoot after observing a solar/luner eclipse in 1769 near Tahiti,(the same as we have just had)his orders were to sail west and to try and confirm the existance of the Southern Land and claim it for the English Crown,after making landfall he sailed up the east coast where he sighted Botany Bay,which he entered and anchored,to replentish fresh water and for Joseph Banks to take samples of plants and animals, he then claimed it for England luckly just before the arrival of the French captain La Perouse, so we could well have been a French Colony.

Or that is what I was taught at primary school in history (1950's)


cheers

[101RRS]

he then claimed it for England luckly just before the arrival of the French captain La Peruse, so we could well have been a French Colony.

cheers

La Perouse arrived some 18 years later - in fact just as Captain Arthur Philip was moving the first colony and first fleet from Botany Bay to Sydney Cove. In fact it was Cook's voyages that sparked French interest in the area.

Garry

[UncleHo]

Thanks Garycol :) yes, I did get my dates a little mixed up,but then it has been a couple of years since I went to Primary School :D

cheers

[ugu80]

a he then claimed it for England luckly just before the arrival of the French captain La Perouse, so we could well have been a French Colony.

Or that is what I was taught at primary school in history (1950's)cheers

I got told that rubbish at school too (1960's, so I'm a bit younger old fart). La Perouse was never seen again after sailing from Botany Bay, ergo, even without a British claim, any claim for France would have been lost with him. The only reason his epic voyage is known of is because he left his journals with Capt Phillip and they were taken back to Europe on the Sirius.

[numpty]

G'day Folks :)

Very interesting thread,I note that in post 16 it is noted that landfall was made at point Hicks,although it was a known location, it was named by James Cook after the sailor in the crow's nest that first sighted it,his name was Hicks,that voyage was the offshoot after observing a solar/luner eclipse in 1769 near Tahiti,(the same as we have just had)his orders were to sail west and to try and confirm the existance of the Southern Land and claim it for the English Crown,after making landfall he sailed up the east coast where he sighted Botany Bay,which he entered and anchored,to replentish fresh water and for Joseph Banks to take samples of plants and animals, he then claimed it for England luckly just before the arrival of the French captain La Perouse, so we could well have been a French Colony.

Or that is what I was taught at primary school in history (1950's)


cheers

Wasn't it a Transit of Venus which he was sent to observe? (again, similar to that which we just had)

[bob10]

Two things.

One: Nobody discovered Australia - just bits of it. For example, "discovering" part of the WA coastline but knowing nothing about the rest of the country does not comprise discovering a continent.

Two: Mahogany ships, yeah there's supposedly one on Stradbroke Island as well. Most such wrecks which are sighted are sighted by waterlogged (or rum logged) sailors, and others of dubious veracity. Proof? None really. i wish it were true but I doubt any of it is.

A book to read on the subject is " Wrecks on the Queensland Coast " by Jack Loney. From a wide variety of sources he traced more than 1,000 wrecks off the Qld coast. In the chapter " romance of the long lost wrecks " he says :
' Although no one can claim with any degree of accuracy, what,where & when was the first vessel wrecked on the Qld coast, we know the N. E. shores of of our continent are sprinkled with the remains of unknown wrecks. The Chinese knew of the existence of Aus., Emperor Ying Tsung had a porcelain map of the coastline after Admiral Chenge Ho circumnavigated the great south land with 62 ships. Also the Japanese pirate of the Pacific, Yamada Nagamasa, is thought to have landed on Cape York Peninsula between 1628 &1633, calling it " Sei-tso " , The south land of pearls.
At the mouth of a saltwater lagoon on Facing island, near Port Curtis, the remains of an old oak vessel partly buried in the sand were believed to be the remains of a relic from the visit of HMS Rattlesnake, in 1847, until a cannon inscribed with' Santa Barbara' was found buried at South Tree Point , making it one of the earliest dated Spanish relics discovered in Australia.A statement from Cardinal Moran in Sydney said it could have originated from the Spanish navigator, de Quiros.
When searching for beche-de-mer near Murray island in Torres Strait in 1890, Government Magistrate, Frank Jardines' lugger sheltered in a cove, spotted an old anchor , and hauling it free from the coral, found a mass of Spanish silver dollars & gold coins, all bearing dates from the first 2 decades of the 19th century. the silver alone was worth over 3000 pounds, Jardine had some made into a plate for his homestead at Somerset.

In 1902 a lugger was swept into a coral basin in Torres Strait during a storm. In attempting to cut a passage thru the coral, at its' narrowest point, they came upon a chest of ancient coins buried in the coral.The lugger Captain learned from an old native of a a story handed down by his ancestors of a ship wrecked on the reef, & when some dark men came ashore on a raft with a chest of money they were killed. Captain Dabelle of the Torres Strait Pilot service found several silver dollars on Murray island, matching the money from the wreck, believed to be some of those taken from the murdered seamen. Theres a lot of history up here, Bob

[wrinklearthur]

Wasn't it a Tansit of Venus which he was sent to observe? (again, similar to that which we just had)

That Cook was sent to observe the Transit of Venus, is what I was taught in primary school in the ( long time ago ) ! .

Astronomy was a essential part of navigation, to determine the longitude.
when the moon past in front of a known star, with the moment that the star disappeared from view to it reappearing recorded, then the times were then read from tables to fix the position.

Where are the surveyor's on here, as I am not an expert and barely know what I am talking about when it comes to navigation. [bighmmm]
.

[DiscoMick]

Gavin Menzies claims in 1421 that that was the reason the Chinese sent fleets to near Australia and to off South America in 1421, to do navigational fixes. Some of his claims are disputed of course, but there seems to be some truth in it.

[JDNSW]

That Cook was sent to observe the Transit of Venus, is what I was taught in primary school in the ( long time ago ) ! .

Astronomy was a essential part of navigation, to determine the longitude.
when the moon past in front of a known star, with the moment that the star disappeared from view to it reappearing recorded, then the times were then read from tables to fix the position.

Where are are the surveyor's on here, as I am not an expert and barely know what I am talking about when it comes to navigation. [bighmmm]
.

It was the transit of Venus. By measuring the time at which Venus crosses the limbs of the sun at widely separated positions on the surface of the earth, it is possible to calculate the distance from the earth to the sun. The position of Tahiti was determined by Cook using 'lunar departures', effectively using the position of the moon in the sky as a clock. The same method was used to determine the time of the transit.

Celestial navigation was the only method of long range navigation available until about WW2, and has only been displaced by GPS in the last decade or two. First used in medieval times, celestial navigation became more and more accurate over the centuries, and became the principal reason for the pursuit of astronomy by the seventeenth century, gradually displacing astrology as the driver.

Instrumentation improved, particularly with the invention of the sextant by Isaac Newton, and perhaps more importantly, tables giving the positions of stars, sun and moon improved - Cook's work in 1769 was made possible by Maskelyne's lunar departure tables published just before the start of the voyage.

However, tables to assist calculations, other than standard trigonometric and log tables, did not exist prior to about WW2, so that celestial navigation in Cook's time require real mathematical ability and understanding. Cook was probably the most outstanding navigator and hydrographer in maritime history.

John

[bob10]

Cooks final instructions from the Lords of the Admiralty , signed on the 30 July, 1768, were formally described as SECRET, and were in two parts, the second part to remain sealed until he was at sea.these were concerned with the aftermath of the observation of the transit, and the departure from Tahiti.Cook had, like Bouganville, [ the french explorer who entered the Pacific in 1766 ] had long suspected Terra Australis Incognita was a myth. however, the opinion of scientific bodies, of the Royal Society, of Joseph Banks & the Admiralty was that it existed.This was in Cooks sealed orders, find the Great South Land. Bob

[Redback]

As I have said, learnt more here than in school, but isn't that life in general

So any idea on what BREADFRUIT is/was.

Cheers Ean

I'm fairly sure it's known as Grapefruit today.

Baz.

[101RRS]

Breadfruit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[stealth]

sean,

you forgot to add "eh" at the end of every sentence eh.


Can't speak for the westerners, but I wouldn't necessarily say we Queenslanders think we're different from the rest of you lot. Just superior in every way (looks, intelligence, sporting prowess etc) :D

Cheers
Sean