Clutch Master Cylinder - long term solution?

[akelly]

Hey all,

I'm on my 3rd clutch master cylinder in a year. Admittedly the one on there now was a cheap trailer one - bought in the sticks on a weekend as a temporary fix to get me home - it lasted about a week.

What's the go for a long term solution to the obvious rubbish standard of the OEM part? I know that idea is out of vogue these days, but does someone make a decent rebuild kit for them? Or is there a particular brand of replacement that is superior?

I do a lot of k's all over the state, so I need it to work and keep working.

Cheers,

Adam

[Yorkshire_Jon]

If you buy a genuine or proper OE part you'll have no problems.

Are you using the correct fluid?
Is it adjusted correctly and bled properly?

R
J

Sent using Forum Runner

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Adam,
If your buying genuine or OE you shouldn't have a problem.

Is the clutch adjusted correctly?
Are you using the correct fluid?
Do you put new fluid in with each unit or just top up? It should be new to make sure it's clean.

Are you sure you are receiving what you've ordered, ie OE?

R
Jon

Sent using Forum Runner

[Scouse]

Genuine or non-genuine doesn't seem to matter from what I've seen.



I think stainless sleeving would be the best long term solution.

[gromit]

Genuine or non-genuine doesn't seem to matter from what I've seen.
I think stainless sleeving would be the best long term solution.


I'd agree, stainless steel sleeving is be the best option.

When you bleed the clutch after a year or so the fluid is black, this from the aluminium wearing away.

Best to buy a new one and get it sleeved before fitting. Fred Smith Automotive in Bayswater VIC carries them in stock already sleeved but it would probably be cheaper for you to source one and go to your local brake joint and organise the sleeving.


Colin

[goingbush]

After three Landcruisers with never a clutch hydraulic problem I know what I'll be doing when my 110 (which as already been re-hydrauliced) needs another Clutch M/C . Landcruiser FJ40 or FJ 60 Master Cylinder is looking good.

[gromit]

After three Landcruisers with never a clutch hydraulic problem I know what I'll be doing when my 110 (which as already been re-hydrauliced) needs another Clutch M/C . Landcruiser FJ40 or FJ 60 Master Cylinder is looking good.

Out of interest, are the bodies of the Landcruiser master cylinders steel or aluminium ?


Colin

[goingbush]

They are Steel,

The mounting bolt holes are offset so you need to remove the pedal box & drill new holes, but this will be a one off job, Should last for ever as long as you flush the fluid every 100,000 klm or so. (use Dot 3 Fluid)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/349.jpg

[isuzu110]

I feel your pain. Last saturday I replaced my master after only having it sleeved and rebuilt by BHSS in September. Probably only 5000k in that period.

I'm picking up another sleeved and rebuilt one today so I'll always have another sleeved one ready to drop in.

I'm getting too practiced in replacing them and my wife at helping me bleed them.

I've been careful with adjusting the correct pedal height to spec and lubricating the plunger with fluid during assembly. I'm using Super DOT4 fluid.

The sleeved ones don't leak black fluid like the unsleeved ones used to.

Ideas anyone ?

[goingbush]

I feel your pain. Last saturday I replaced my master after only having it sleeved and rebuilt by BHSS in September. Probably only 5000k in that period.

I'm picking up another sleeved and rebuilt one today so I'll always have another sleeved one ready to drop in.

I'm getting too practiced in replacing them and my wife at helping me bleed them.

I've been careful with adjusting the correct pedal height to spec and lubricating the plunger with fluid during assembly. I'm using Super DOT4 fluid.

The sleeved ones don't leak black fluid like the unsleeved ones used to.

Ideas anyone ?

Toyota recommend Dot3 for 80 & 100 series when I had them & lots of reports of ABS failures from using Dot4 , Toyota Genuine Fluid is Dot3 .

Just an Idea but worth trying Dot3 in your clutch, Hard to find on the shelves at auto parts suppliers now, but easier just to go to your local Toyota dealer & get a bottle of gen-u-ine Toyota Brake Fluid.

check this out
DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluids (http://www.nbsbrakesupplies.com.au/technical-information/dot-3-and-dot-4-brake-fluids.html)

[incisor]

big w carry dot 3 brake fluid, $7 a bottle...

[isuzu110]

big w carry dot 3 brake fluid, $7 a bottle...

Thanks guys. I'll try going back to DOT 3 next time. Any other ideas on what may be going wrong ?

[djam1]

Where are you going to put your clutch switch?


They are Steel,

The mounting bolt holes are offset so you need to remove the pedal box & drill new holes, but this will be a one off job, Should last for ever as long as you flush the fluid every 100,000 klm or so. (use Dot 3 Fluid)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/349.jpg

[Scouse]

Where are you going to put your clutch switch?I thought most Td5 owners disconnected it as it improves the gear changes (so I've been told by those who have done it).

[rick130]

Adam,
If your buying genuine or OE you shouldn't have a problem.

Is the clutch adjusted correctly?
Are you using the correct fluid?
Do you put new fluid in with each unit or just top up? It should be new to make sure it's clean.

Are you sure you are receiving what you've ordered, ie OE?

R
Jon

Sent using Forum Runner

Sorry Jon but the OE M/C's are garbage and have been for a very long time (and I used to always use only Girling/Lucas cylinders on race cars as they were very good, once upon a time)

I fitted a PBR 3/4" M/C years and years ago and it's been the only long term fix I've found, short of an SS sleeve in an OE type M/C.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Sorry Jon but the OE M/C's are garbage and have been for a very long time (and I used to always use only Girling/Lucas cylinders on race cars as they were very good, once upon a time)

I fitted a PBR 3/4" M/C years and years ago and it's been the only long term fix I've found, short of an SS sleeve in an OE type M/C.

Interesting...

I am of course speaking from experiences in the UK, not here. It will be 3 or 4 years since I did the last one, but I did many on different Defenders before that. 'Back then' OE was the only way to go for longevity.

Has the fluid changed, or is it different fluid over here? A genuine or OE part will be the same the world over, or at least it should be! Afterall, you don't see many new Pumas with dead master cylinders so those that leave the factory must be ok!

When they fail (in the Uk) it's because the rubber seals die, nothing to do with the casing in the bore wearing away.

Touch wood, My 2006 TD5 is on its original master and slave, no oil leaks & UK fluid.

J

Sent using Forum Runner

[bcj]

just about to replace mine again (think I do it every 12mnths with oem ones), talked to local sleeve guy who reckoned it's something to do with geometry of pedal/pushrod in defenders , said what he does is machines an extra groove for an o-ring on rear of piston to support it better in bore. Talking $160ish to sleeve and rebuild.
Have heard pbr ones are better

Brett

110 300tdi

[gromit]

Part of the problem seems to be the choice of aluminium for the body. The steel piston wears the aluminium away (that's why the fluid is black when you bleed the system). As the clearance between piston & body opens up the seals have to work harder because they are sealing on a bigger diameter and the piston moves around. Finally it starts to leak past the seals.

My defender had the OEM master cylinder still fitted when I got it 13 years ago, after a few years it leaked so I re-sealed it. It's only a weekend car so doesn't get a lot of use. A couple of years ago it started leaking again so I fitted a stainless sleeved one.

Slave cylinder is cast iron and doesn't seem to have the same failure rate as the master cylinder.

Colin

[Quigley]

I have a 2009 Puma which has done 30,000km. I noticed the clutch master cylinder fluid level was down 20mm or so and I looked for evidence of a leak at the master cylinder but couldn't see anything. I then tried to examine the slave cylinder for a leak also. But I just can't readily see the slave cylinder! I've been going deaf for some years now, and hopefully not blind too. Has it been deliberately hidden on the Pumas? I know it must be at the end of a hose from the Master cylinder and near the clutch area, but I can't see it.
And finally, loss of clutch fluid for me has always been due to a leak somewhere. Now I'm wondering if it also evaporates over time?

[PAT303]

I can't help but wonder when people have constant ongoing issue's thats there's more to the story.The only MC's I've replaced are poorly adjusted ones,as mentioned above the adjustment must be so the shaft runs straight through it's cycle and you must use the correct fluid,if you've replaced three in twelve months fitting another model/make with the same problem won't fix anything. Pat

[Yorkshire_Jon]

I can't help but wonder when people have constant ongoing issue's thats there's more to the story.The only MC's I've replaced are poorly adjusted ones,as mentioned above the adjustment must be so the shaft runs straight through it's cycle and you must use the correct fluid,if you've replaced three in twelve months fitting another model/make with the same problem won't fix anything. Pat

Couldn't agree more Pat. Well put.

Sent using Forum Runner

[rick130]

{snip]

When they fail (in the Uk) it's because the rubber seals die, nothing to do with the casing in the bore wearing away.

Touch wood, My 2006 TD5 is on its original master and slave, no oil leaks & UK fluid.

J

Sent using Forum Runner

Yep, seal failures.

Look back over the years of the forum and it's a constant, ongoing issue with Lucas/Girling cylinders and many leaking during warranty.

Unfortunately a new M/C was cheaper than a seal kit and it's now lasted many years :rolleyes:

[edit] and FWIW I'm still on the original slave cyl that seems to give many problems, so go figure........

[akelly]

Thanks for all the great advice everyone!

Where can I get the PBR one? Anyone have a part number?

Cheers,

Adam

[goingbush]

I believe You would use a 3/4" PBR trailer brake master cylinder.

Sent from my ZTE T28 using Tapatalk 2

[justinc]

Ashcroft Transmissions - TD5 Defender Auto Kit (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=76)


:):):)


jc

[isuzu110]

what he does is machines an extra groove for an o-ring on rear of piston to support it better in bore.

Brett

110 300tdi

The last two of mine that have failed have had the rear groove and the second seal. I bought a cheap one from Supercheap once (as a backup) and it does not have a second seal. Thankfully I've never needed to use it.

[akelly]

The last two of mine that have failed have had the rear groove and the second seal. I bought a cheap one from Supercheap once (as a backup) and it does not have a second seal. Thankfully I've never needed to use it.

My supercheap one lasted a week. Is now pouring fluid onto my foot!

Got me home though, which was the point of it I suppose.

[goingbush]

My clutch MC is leaking again, I was going to fit a Landcruiser unit but to save pulling out the pedal box to redrill the ofset flange holes I'm going to try a Jeep one, Checking the Jeep forums they dont suffer the same leaking hydraulics issues (tho the jeep clutch itself does have issues).

Ive ordered one of these, 1989 Jeep Wrangler Clutch Master Cylinder 53004466 (http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/parts/89/jeep/wrangler/master_slave_cylinders/clutch_master_cylinder.html?3593=257599&slide=4)

its 11/16" compared to the Defenders 3/4" (12/16") bore so might make the clutch pedal a bit lighter too !!

[wally]

Well, I don't know. In seventeen years of driving Defenders I've only replaced one clutch master cylinder. One of my current 130s had a leaky MC after about fourteen years and 200000km. I replaced it with a cheap trailer one and two years later it's still fine.

[jakeslouw]

Ashcroft Transmissions - TD5 Defender Auto Kit (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=76)


:):):)


jc

x 2 !

It's the only lasting solution!

[dennisS1]

2000 model 260,000Ks never replaced, never changed fluid as far back as I can remember never added fluid. (Probably fail tomorrow)
Dennis

[goingbush]

Got my Jeep Clutch m/c in the mail today, and not before time too, fluid is fairly running down the pedal.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/09/178.jpg

swapped the old Landrover pushrod into the Jeep MC no dramas.
distance between mounting hole centres are the same and as is the outside dia where is mounts into the pedal tower.

Only issue is the hose fitting is a different thread and I had to get an adaptor made at Lilydale Brakes, $38

.

[goingbush]

Fitted , usual PITA, but hopefully the last time I need to do it.

The Clutch pedal is noticeably lighter, a delight to drive.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/09/104.jpg



.

[rick130]

If it's lighter is it a 5/8" bore ?

If so, is the pedal travel OK ?

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I just used a PBR 3/4" M/C that bolts straight up.

Problem solved.

[swivelrat]

Pretty frustrated, replaced mine about 6mths after purchasing the 1995 "one dirty" after fluid had stripped all paint off inside and out of firewall.:( Decided not to refit mats until had time to spray rusting panels with new paint. 3mths later, leaking again. After 12mths leaking real bad so forked out for new one from British Parts-Perth. Nice weekend so decided to respray all affected areas which as you would know was a right job taping up. Sat morn open drivers door only to spy the fn thing was leaking again, one week later!
Have contacted Perth Brake Parts, can re sleeving spare one for $160, glad I didnt ditch it.
Many comments on this thread refer to correct fluid. What is correct fluid. Will try DOT 3 instead of DOT 4 unless anyone can advise me not too??

[goingbush]

Me too, sort of
Ok so it turns out my Defender has turned its nose up at the Jeep m/cyl, must have a faulty return valve, I'm sure this thing is alive :eek:
so whats happening with each press of the clutch slightly more fluid stays in the slave cyl and dosent return to the m/cyl. the pedal gets higher with each push. so every 20klm (city driving) or so I have to stop and crack the nipple on the slave to release the pressure.
I bought a new Stainless steel sleeved 3/4" aftermarket M/cyl from Fred Smith in Bayswater $120 . So far so good. Using PBR Dot3 fluid from Supercheap Auto.

Will continue to use Dot3 in the Clutch from now on

Im also going to order a RedBooster next week that way the M/cyl will be dead easy to replace as it will be pointing forwards.

[djam1]

Don you know you don't need a red booster to get the clutch pedal like a 300TDI,
Just a simple change of springs on the pedal will do it

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic6616.html

[goingbush]

Thanks Duane,
I have been happily using the Tdi spring but the Jeep M/cyl spoiled me, The Clutch was OOOOOooohh so light , just like a 'Cruiser , now with the rover 3/4 M/cyl back in the tdi spring was somehow stopping the pedal from coming all the way up, to give me some pedal free play I put the Td5 spring back & its now like driving a Terex

Perhaps I'm just going weak at the knees.

(Btw , just ordered an oil cooler for the R380 - same as yours, thanks for the idea)

[460cixy]

Me too, sort of
Ok so it turns out my Defender has turned its nose up at the Jeep m/cyl, must have a faulty return valve, I'm sure this thing is alive :eek:
so whats happening with each press of the clutch slightly more fluid stays in the slave cyl and dosent return to the m/cyl. the pedal gets higher with each push. so every 20klm (city driving) or so I have to stop and crack the nipple on the slave to release the pressure..

There shouldn't be any valves and if it's doing as you say I would guess the hose is crook or the free play is not adjusted correctly. What part number was the jeep cylinder? And where did you get it?

[goingbush]

Thanks for reply, Its been suggested Ive got a faulty hose, I have a new one on order. But its not happening with new sleeved LR M/cyl. But that might account for why my pedal is so heavy & why the Tdi spring isn't returning the pedal.
Will report results when New hose arrives & fitted.

The Jeep cylinder is OEM-53004466 from here 1989 Jeep Wrangler Clutch Master Cylinder 53004466 (http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/auto/parts/89/jeep/wrangler/master_slave_cylinders/clutch_master_cylinder.html?3593=257599&slide=4)

cheers Don

[460cixy]

Orderd mine today Shame the postage kills it a bit. I don't realy have a drama with the clutch but the hand brake has a crook back and knee so it may make it a bit better for her to drive it I couldn't even find a listing for the cylinder here at work a 11/16 clutch master is a pretty rare thing all 3/4 or 5/8