Post-recovery rapid battery drain

[timbo]

Following the GHM outing on the weekend, which culminated in me putting my Defender on its side, I seem to have a voltage leak somewhere. Matt and I suspect that it's somewhere along the right chassis rail (trailer electrics perhaps). We came to this conclusion after a few hours of testing.

The drain was so rapid that we could watch it drop on the multimeter. Probably about .01 volts per 5 seconds.

We followed the POS lead from the battery compartment under the passenger seat, through the firewall, to the starter motor. From there, we traced the current draw to a box of fuses on the engine bay side of the firewall. There were 4 slots for fuses. The closest to the engine was empty, the next two were 60A, and the last was 30A. It seems that the current was being drawn through the first of the 60A fuses, so it was the 2nd socket from the front of the car. As far as we could tell by the wiring diagram, this fuse branches off to feed several things.

Could anybody tell me what it might be? I just drove home from Matt's without the fuse, and didn't notice anything not working. My guess was power steering, or power brakes, but they both worked. We saw something to do with the trailer wiring on the diagram, and the drag chain was wrapped around the chassis rail, and could have damaged the wiring in the process of recovery, but we couldn't find anything wrong with the wiring in the spot where we had the chain. No broken insulation or anything like that.

It's a 95 defender by the way, with a 300tdi and a dual battery system with an old-school solenoid which seems to keep saving my auxilliary battery from death. I've just been jump starting from the aux battery in the meantime, because it's also shallow cycle.

[Blknight.aus]

without looking at the diagrams...

check the aux feed in the trailer plug harness if its not showing full battery voltage there's your suspect

[timbo]

without looking at the diagrams...

check the aux feed in the trailer plug harness if its not showing full battery voltage there's your suspect

One of the 7 pins was reading something. I can't remember which pin, or what we were reading. I'll have to have another look.

[timbo]

So after it killed a brand new battery yesterday, I'm a lot more cautious about what the voltage is doing, so I got a brand new replacement and hooked it all up again.

Both starter and aux batteries started at about 20v straight after hooking them up, and within a few minutes were down to 19v

I unhooked the new starter, starting with the positive lead, then the black linkage between the two negative battery terminals, then the negative lead itself on the starter. Both batteries continued to drain the entire time.

Matt and I reckon the new battery started really high because that's how they come from the factory, so when I hooked it up, it pushed the aux battery up with it. Now we both suspect it might be normal for a battery to 'settle in' with first use. Can anyone confirm this? I'm gonna continue taking readings, and if it drops below 12v, I'll take the new battery off and charge it, so I don't kill another brand new battery. :eek:

[timbo]

Also bear in mind that the fuse is still sitting out, so if our diagnostics were correct, then the leak is still isolated, and this is just the battery 'settling in'. If we're incorrect, it's continuing to drain, and the problem is still there somewhere.

[timbo]

12:05pm

Starter 16.73V

Aux 17.06

12:30pm

Starter 16.63

Aux 16.98

[THE BOOGER]

With those voltages I would also look at what your alternator is putting out we have a 300 tdi d1 and the volt meter sits on 13.8 most of the time so we cant get more than that in the batteries:)
How long were the two batteries linked together?

[timbo]

With those voltages I would also look at what your alternator is putting out we have a 300 tdi d1 and the volt meter sits on 13.8 most of the time so we cant get more than that in the batteries:)
How long were the two batteries linked together?

As soon as I bought the new battery today, I linked it all up how it's supposed to be, with the Starter connected to the Aux via direct link on negative terminals.

Alternator is 100amp, but I took the initial readings before I started the car with today's new battery, and after I installed everything. So, I don't suspect the alternator.

[Blknight.aus]

20v+ 19V?

thats bad, thats very very bad......

[timbo]

20v+ 19V?

thats bad, thats very very bad......

What does it mean though? Are we absolutely sure that new sealed batteries don't settle in from a high voltage?

[timbo]

If there's no such thing as a 'settling in' period for new sealed batteries, how could a '12V' battery be reading 20V from just connecting it up to the cars wiring?

[Scouse]

It sounds like your starter & aux batteries are now wired in series rather than parallel :(.

[timbo]

1:00pm

Starter 16.74

Aux 17.08

:confused:

[timbo]

It sounds like your starter & aux batteries are now wired in series rather than parallel :(.

But the wiring hasn't changed since I got the car. It's all hooked up how it was. The two batteries are linked through a Solenoid.

[timbo]

So voltage has levelled out. Even raised from last reading. What does that mean??

[timbo]

I need to drive my brother to the airport at 1:30, so I'll take another reading soonish, then drive him there and take another reading when I come back.

[THE BOOGER]

Try disconnecting the batteries and take the reading off each battery the aux should be around 12.8 or so as it has been in the car for a while the new battery could be anywhere it may have been sitting for days or weeks at the shop. But neither battery should be any where near 20v:(

[timbo]

12:05pm

Starter 16.73V

Aux 17.06

12:30pm

Starter 16.63

Aux 16.98

1:00pm

Starter 16.74

Aux 17.08

1:26pm

Starter 16.79

Aux 17.08

1:30pm

STARTED CAR AND DROVE IT UP DRIVEWAY

Starter 17.41 and climbing

Aux 17.47

2:16pm

DROVE TO AIRPORT (30-45mins)

While engine is running:

Starter 14.49

Aux 14.49

2:56pm

BACK HOME (30mins driving)

While engine is still running:

Starter 16.36

Aux 16.36

Engine off

Starter 15.7 and dropping

Aux 16.3 and semi stable.

3:20pm

Starter 13.37 stable

Aux 13.87 stable

[Basil135]

Disconnect your AUX battery, and check the voltage.

Then check the voltage of your new starter battery, preferably out of the vehicle.

I am suspecting the solenoid in your change over cct has been damaged when the car fell over, and if so, your batteries MAY be in series and not parallel.

You really need to know what the unloaded voltage of the batteries is.

[timbo]

4:13pm

Starter disconnected 13.38

Aux disconnected 13.98

Aux only connected 13.96

Starter and aux both connected

Starter 13.34

Aux 13.91

[mattyg]

hey tim, those voltages seem to be heaps better - 14.49 when running and 13ish when not seems perfect. keep checking periodically though.

still cant see how you were getting 20V????!!!!

I dont know how those old solinoids work but it might be worth a look. maybe getting it out and checking the switching on a test bench.

To test the trailer aux, google a 'pinout' of a trailer socket and continuity test the AUX pin to ground/chassis. You should have High resistance: OL or Mohms or Kohms.

Matt

[THE BOOGER]

Those are much better voltages now test your solenoid to se if it is open and closed when it should be or if it has shorted:) you may have given it a heart attack when the car went over:(

[timbo]

How do I go about testing a solenoid?? I'm learning all this as I go...

[timbo]

Surely if it doesn't drain overnight, then it's not my solenoid, it's whatever was on the circuit that I pulled the 60A fuse out of?

[jazzaD1]

physically follow the wiring then! wire capable of carrying 60A is going to stick out from the factory harness

[THE BOOGER]

Test the soleniod by puting a meter across the main terminals (the ones the battery connects to) and puting power to the smaller terminals and see you should get 0 ohms when no power and 1.00 or ol when powered you should also hear and feel the soleniod opening and closing as power is put to it:)

does yours look like this

DUAL BATTERY ISOLATOR SOLENOID - EASY TO DIY 100AMP ABR | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DUAL-BATTERY-ISOLATOR-SOLENOID-EASY-DIY-100AMP-ABR-/390431386269?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ae7862a9d)

[timbo]

Looks similar. Not sure if it's an exact match though. I do hear the solenoid click when I hook up one of the batteries. Could it still do that if it was buggered?

[mattyg]

I think the concerns with the solinoid are more to do with the higher voltages you were getting.

I'm sure that we've nailed the excessive current draw to whatever is connected to that fuse. Just a matter of finding what that circuit does. ideas anyone? We have looked at the circuit diagram in the workshop manual but it isn't clear to me. Test the trailer socket Tim.

I don't know how those solinoids operate so that's why I would pull it out of the car and play with it. If anyone has a link or instructions on how they work it would be great.

[timbo]

Wish I didn't have work tonight. Won't be able to look at the car again until tomorrow. :(

[Blknight.aus]

change the battery in your multimeter and put it up against a known reference voltage.

19v is bad...

way too high for 12V systems way too low for 24V.


I cant work out which sequence youve used to number the fuses but heres the break out.
48180
The engine bay fusable links
48182
48183
the fuse box in the firewall cover.

[mattyg]

It's the glow plug timer fuse. Fuse 3 in the first pic

[Basil135]

I was thinking the same as Dave.

Check your multi meter against a known good battery, either 1.5v or 9v.

Also, change the battery in it.

A flat battery in the meter can give strange readings. If possible, confirm your measurements with another meter. Just to be sure, to be sure... :D

[timbo]

2:53am

Just got home from work, tested both batteries. Both remain over 13 volts. Aux is slightly higher than starter. Car started perfectly.

Could there still be a problem in the solenoid?

If I have glowplugs, why does my orange light have a choke symbol on it instead? Just a Land Rover quirk? Or is it possible I have a heat-exchanger instead?

How do I check for a fault with the glowplug timer?

[Blknight.aus]

its a landrover thing. (or your vehicle wasnt originally a diesel in some cases)

to check your dual battery solenoid the simple way put the meter across the aux batter, turn on the heater fan to high, the headlights to high and then cycle the ignition slowly to each position, if the voltage dips slightly as all the accessories come on then the battery is permanantly connected. I dont suspect this will be the case as the aux voltage was higher than the cranking battery voltage.

to confirm what I think might be the fault, in a quiet environment cycle the ignition for the glow plug light timing, if you dont hear a click when the light goes out then the glow plug circuit is to blame via a stuck solenoid. Next disconnect the main feed wire to the glow plugs and clip your meter onto that and replace the fuse. If you get volts with the ignition off you've found your suspect. if you get 0V cycle the ignition and you should get battery voltage for a few seconds before it drops off again.

you can also do that test by clamping a light to the same wire.

[timbo]

Probably won't get to try all of this until Monday. I only woke up a short while ago, and I have to get to work again soon.

Thank you everyone for their advice though! I'll keep you posted.

[timbo]

Just at work and I had a break, so I tested the batteries again. Over the course of the night they went from 16/17V, up to 19 again. So I checked my multimeter against an AA battery, which is supposed to be 1.5V, and I got a 2.3V reading. I guess my multimeter is buggered?

[Blknight.aus]

nope....

your multimeters battery is flat. paraphrasing what the guy who does our cal work on the work meters

"some meters use the battery to power up the bit that does a voltage reference thing, as the battery in the meter goes flat this reference goes out and the meter will over read voltages and resistances then under read capacitance and continuity"

[timbo]

So I finally had time to get a new battery for the multimeter. Everything seems to be reading fine, with Aux around 14 and Starter around 13.

I go to detach the wiring from the glowplugs, and I don't have a spanner small enough. Looks like I need a 6mm, and my smallest is 8mm. :mad:

I was thinking I might not need to detach the wiring though? Could I just attach the negative lead on the multimeter to the engine block, and the positive to the wire? I don't see how the glowplugs could be earthing through the engine though, with such a high current. If they're not, why is there only one wire attached to them? :confused:

As I said, electrics aren't my strong suit.

[timbo]

Judging by this picture, it is earthing through the engine. Does that mean I can check for current without detaching the wire?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/85.jpg

[Blknight.aus]

the glow plugs earth through the block, which uses the same earth (negative) connection as the startermotor which is the single biggest amps draw on the system unless you have a winch.

if you try to measure the voltage on the rail with the glow plugs you wont see full battery voltage but you should see something, with a good battery I would expect maybe 8-10v.

stick the negative lead of the meter on the battery -ve terminal then contact the +ve to a good bit of metal on the block ( I usually use the alternator housing to start with) if you get ANY voltage reading there then you have a bad earth connection and will need to sort that out.

once you have a good earth reading clip onto the glow plugs rail and put the fuse in, if you get voltage there with the ignition off then your problem is in the glowplug control circuit.

[timbo]

Ok, so, I conducted the test, and ascertained that you can indeed test for current without removing the wire, as I had 11 volts flowing through the lead attached to the glowplug. Still don't understand how that works, but that's irrelevant.

Next step is to locate the glow plug timer. So where the hell is it??

[timbo]

the glow plugs earth through the block, which uses the same earth (negative) connection as the startermotor which is the single biggest amps draw on the system unless you have a winch.

if you try to measure the voltage on the rail with the glow plugs you wont see full battery voltage but you should see something, with a good battery I would expect maybe 8-10v.

stick the negative lead of the meter on the battery -ve terminal then contact the +ve to a good bit of metal on the block ( I usually use the alternator housing to start with) if you get ANY voltage reading there then you have a bad earth connection and will need to sort that out.

once you have a good earth reading clip onto the glow plugs rail and put the fuse in, if you get voltage there with the ignition off then your problem is in the glowplug control circuit.

I just attached the +ve to the back of the glowplug where the wire joins it, and the -ve to the engine block right beside it. Chucked in the fuse, and bob's your uncle. Removed the fuse and got a -0.00 reading from the same spot.

[mattyg]

Good onya Tim. Well make an honorary sparky out of you yet!

Sorry I can't help with theglowplug timer circuit. Don't have a defer or workshop manual.

Ps remember to get a new fuse for your multimeter so you can measure current again. Jaycar should have them Or prime electronics at Bowen hills (take the meter with you)

[timbo]

So I traced the glowplug circuit to a mass of taped up wires and conduit that runs along the top of the firewall, so physically tracing it is out of the question.

[timbo]

Good onya Tim. Well make an honorary sparky out of you yet!

Sorry I can't help with theglowplug timer circuit. Don't have a defer or workshop manual.

Ps remember to get a new fuse for your multimeter so you can measure current again. Jaycar should have them Or prime electronics at Bowen hills (take the meter with you)

Cheers! :D

I checked the fuse when I changed the battery, and it seemed to be intact. Had to strain the eyes a bit to see it though!

The Haynes manual is woefully unhelpful regarding the location of the relay.

Apparently it's "located on the engine compartment bulkhead".

Well, duh. A good guess could have told me that!

I see something which I suspect, over near the passenger side?

[mattyg]

Just double check it. Take it out. And put the multimeter on ohms and put the leads on both sides of the fuse. You should get no resistance or a very low resistance of something like 0.01

[Blknight.aus]

here ya go...

I quote from the scripture


DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION
Glow Plugs
Glowplugs are fitted to the TDi engine to assist starting. A constant battery feed
is supplied by fusible link 3 (C907-3) to the glow plug timer (C189-5) on a
brown wire. When the ignition switch is turned to position "II", a second feed is
supplied to the glow plug timer (C189-3). This triggers a feed (C189-6) to the
glow plugs.
With the ignition switch in position "II", the glow plug warning lamp (C230-4) is
provided a feed via fuse 17 (C580-33) of the passenger compartment fuse box
on a white wire. The warning lamp (C233-10) is connected to the glow plug
timer (C189-2) by a yellow/black wire.
When the glow plug timer provides a feed for the glow plugs (C189-6), it
simultaneously provides an earth path (C189-4) for the warning lamp. After a
set period, feed to the glow plugs, and the earth path for the warning lamp are
cut; extinguishing the warning lamp.

[timbo]

here ya go...

I quote from the scripture

Ok... this is where the puzzle gets interesting.

C189 in that image (the timer) was the source of my new rattle after I rolled the vehicle. The screw holding it to the bulkhead was very loose, and the timer was sitting away from the bulkhead, near the end of the screw. Would the fact it was loose be the cause of its failure, or my attempts to stop the rattle by tightening the screw?

[timbo]

P.S. What is this scripture and where can I get one?? :o

[timbo]

Also, is this what I'm looking for? LAND ROVER DEFENDER 200/300TDI GLOW PLUG TIMER RELAY | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-DEFENDER-200-300TDI-GLOW-PLUG-TIMER-RELAY-/220732905409)

[timbo]

And another question. At what temperature do glow plugs become necessary?

[timbo]

Just double check it. Take it out. And put the multimeter on ohms and put the leads on both sides of the fuse. You should get no resistance or a very low resistance of something like 0.01

Set it to 200ohms and it gave a reading of 3.4-3.5

What does that mean?

[Blknight.aus]

quote possibley yes, but they also die of old age and moisture ingress.

the scripture is available from Daves interesting things...
Clicky (http://www.davesitshop.com/davesitshop/index.php'searchStr=rave&_a=viewCat&Submit=%C2%A0)

yes

in a TDI thats well maintained? somewhere around -15 deg C if you have winterised diesel or alpine diesel on board.

3.4-3.5 Ohms... its too high for a fuse. But if you're reading it with the meter out of cal or with volts going across it it may be wrong.

[dullbird]

And another question. At what temperature do glow plugs become necessary?


I can't answer the question in terms to what temp but I can tell you you do not need glow plugs in a TDI in Australia.

Most of my friends never even had their glow plugs connected in the uk and the uk was regularly in minus temperatures.

My mate even started his 300tdi in the French alps when it was -17 with not glow plugs in:)

[timbo]

I can't answer the question in terms to what temp but I can tell you you do not need glow plugs in a TDI in Australia.

Most of my friends never even had their glow plugs connected in the uk and the uk was regularly in minus temperatures.

My mate even started his 300tdi in the French alps when it was -17 with not glow plugs in:)
Sooo problem solved? Can it hurt to just leave the fuse out and not buy a new relay?

[timbo]

quote possibley yes, but they also die of old age and moisture ingress.

the scripture is available from Daves interesting things...
Clicky (http://www.davesitshop.com/davesitshop/index.php'searchStr=rave&_a=viewCat&Submit=%C2%A0)

yes

in a TDI thats well maintained? somewhere around -15 deg C if you have winterised diesel or alpine diesel on board.

3.4-3.5 Ohms... its too high for a fuse. But if you're reading it with the meter out of cal or with volts going across it it may be wrong.

Well, I just put a new battery into the multimeter, and if it was the battery, wouldn't the ohms read lower than they should? How do you calibrate a multimeter? There were no volts going across it, as I placed it on a plastic surface, disconnected from everything.

I think I need to just fork out a bit more coin and buy a proper multimeter. This one is starting to give me the proverbial s**ts

[Blknight.aus]

swing out to the switch at some point and I'll chuck the MK I's at it for you.

I should be home tomorrow arvo and weekend.

[timbo]

Excuse my ignorance. MK I's?

[Blknight.aus]

eyeballs.

[timbo]

eyeballs.

Where on earth did that saying originate? I'm surprised I've never heard it before.

I'd love to come round. I'm taking my nan to the MK I specialist on Friday before work though, so it'd have to be on the weekend sometime. When are you likely to be about?

[Blknight.aus]

the saying came from the military I'm not entirely sure of the origin of the phrase but its basically a reference for going and having a look at something using your MK I Eyeball. Most likely it came from someone in the stores stream

the full phrase as I recall it is

device, observational, Eyeball. MK I.

[timbo]

the saying came from the military I'm not entirely sure of the origin of the phrase but its basically a reference for going and having a look at something using your MK I Eyeball. Most likely it came from someone in the stores stream

the full phrase as I recall it is

device, observational, Eyeball. MK I.

Interesting.

[wrinklearthur]

So I traced the glowplug circuit to a mass of taped up wires and conduit that runs along the top of the firewall, so physically tracing it is out of the question.

Wipe the wire at the glow plugs clean with some methylated spirits, check the wires colour and the trace along with the size of the wire, should be black with yellow trace.
for the direction it then travels to the relay ( part number PRC 6913 ), a clue can be the way it curves as it enters into the wiring loam.


Also, is this what I'm looking for? LAND ROVER DEFENDER 200/300TDI GLOW PLUG TIMER RELAY | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-DEFENDER-200-300TDI-GLOW-PLUG-TIMER-RELAY-/220732905409)

Yes that's the one.

The Glow plug timer relay is supposed to be mounted, under bonnet centre skuttle area.

The other thinner wires are ;
1. ( WR ) White-red trace, switched by ignition switch, starter position
2. ( YB ) Yellow-black trace, supply to cold start warning light
3. ( W ) White, switched by ignition switch, run position
4. ( B ) Black, earth path for the glow plug warning lamp

The two thick wires are ;
5. ( N ) Brown, from battery
6. ( BY ) Black-Yellow trace, switched wire from relay contacts going to the glow plug wire ( YB ) Yellow-Black trace.

.

[wrinklearthur]

Set it to 200ohms and it gave a reading of 3.4-3.5

What does that mean?

Try 20ohm range with the new battery.
.

[timbo]

Wipe the wire at the glow plugs clean with some methylated spirits, check the wires colour and the trace along with the size of the wire, should be yellow with black trace.
for the direction it then travels to the relay ( part number PRC 6913 ), a clue can be the way it curves as it enters into the wiring loam.



Yes that's the one.

The Glow plug timer relay is supposed to be mounted, under bonnet centre skuttle area.

The two thick wires are ;
1. ( N ) Brown, from battery
2. ( YB ) Yellow-black trace, switched wire from relay contacts going to the glow plugs.

The other thinner wires are ;
1. ( B ) Black, earth
2. ( YB ) Yellow-black trace, supply to Cold start warning light
3. ( WR ) White-red trace, function not documented, could also be ( NR ) Brown-white trace *
4. ( W ) White, switched by ignition switch

* The workshop manual is a bit vague on the circuit diagram as it caters for both petrol and diesel.
.
Check out Dave's earlier post. It has a labelled picture of the timer. Thanks for the additional info though. This thread will be valuable for people with similar problems.

[wrinklearthur]

Check out Dave's earlier post. It has a labelled picture of the timer. Thanks for the additional info though. This thread will be valuable for people with similar problems.

I have redone the circuit description I posted as I found some more info to fill in a couple of gaps.

Wipe the wire at the glow plugs clean with some methylated spirits, check the wires colour and the trace along with the size of the wire, should be black with yellow trace.
for the direction it then travels to the relay ( part number PRC 6913 ), a clue can be the way it curves as it enters into the wiring loam.

The Glow plug timer relay is supposed to be mounted, under bonnet centre skuttle area.

The other thinner wires are ;
1. ( WR ) White-red trace, switched by ignition switch, starter position
2. ( YB ) Yellow-black trace, supply to cold start warning light
3. ( W ) White, switched by ignition switch, run position
4. ( B ) Black, earth path for the glow plug warning lamp

The two thick wires are ;
5. ( N ) Brown, from battery
6. ( BY ) Black-Yellow trace, switched wire from relay contacts going to the glow plug wire ( YB ) Yellow-Black trace.

.

.

[timbo]

I have redone the circuit description I posted as I found some more info to fill in a couple of gaps.


.

Cheers mate, that's really helpful.

[rainman]

I'd just like to thank everyone here for this extremely useful thread, with special thanks to Timbo for making it all possible by sticking his hardtop on its side :cool:.

After installing a work light on the tray of my 130 Tdi last week end I had a massive leak to earth which culminated in two dead batteries and a tow truck ride home Sunday evening. I traced the issue to the glow plug circuit (of course the very last fuse I removed) and then confirmed my results with this thread. I've since been running around a still wintery Brisbane with no effects whatsoever on starting, confirming that there's probably going to be no need for me to ever need glow plugs.

Thanks again everyone ;)
James.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/799.jpg