If you had 5 minutes with a Landrover Engineer.

[Hymie]

If you had 5 minutes with a Landrover Engineer what would you want to throttle them for?

Me, I've just spent 15 minutes in the snow trying to get the fuse cover lid to screw back on in my 130 Defender, what a frustrating excercise!

[justinc]

hmmm, well for 1 forget all these namby pamby new soft roader models, we want a rebirth of the 110" and 120" 1980's era landies, all diesels, running a 4 cyl turbo cummins, isuzu or some other truck engine with an autobox option, a salisbury rear axle, decent a/c, no electric windows and stuff, some detachable door tops and a decent towball downforce rating. galv chassis, big fuel tank/s, and cupholders.

that'll do for starters.


jc

[Bigbjorn]

hmmm, well for 1 forget all these namby pamby new soft roader models, we want a rebirth of the 110" and 120" 1980's era landies, all diesels, running a 4 cyl turbo cummins, isuzu or some other truck engine with an autobox option, a salisbury rear axle, decent a/c, no electric windows and stuff, some detachable door tops and a decent towball downforce rating. galv chassis, big fuel tank/s, and cupholders.

that'll do for starters.


jc

Lots of cubic inches up front, preferably naturally aspirated. Turbos & intercoolers are just something else to be maintained, wear out, break down.

And most important of all, no electronics at all except the radio/cd player.

Electronically controlled vehicles are simply not suitable for remote area/extreme conditions use. Too unreliable, too prone to instantaneous failure.

[Davo]

I think one minute would do it, but then I'd have to make my getaway!

Actually, it's the marketing morons that I'd like to . . . well, anyway . . .

A decently-sized diesel, a stronger drivetrain, simple suspension and steering and other bits, and a real breakthrough would be to break down the electronics and include onboard diagnostics so that you could actually figure out a problem in the bush. I know we're stuck with electronics for various emission and consumption reasons, but sensors and other parts of the system don't have to be so damned hard to troubleshoot. And it also wouldn't kill them to have a built-in display so that you wouldn't have to have a separate tool to talk with the computer.

[MR LR]

Personally i would like options, a range of engines; small/high tech and large/simple/gutsy. Build the damn things properly.

It's interesting that everyone hates the electronics, onyl things that have made our cars fail to proceed have seen starter motors, fuel lines and radiator hoses. Dad hates electronics, we've had our fair share of niggles, but nothing to make you eat a witchety grub :)

Cheers
Will

[goingbush]

I don't think everybody hates electronics.

They ARE a lot more efficient and reliable than some of the pure mechanical stuff. I think the Td5 is a brilliant engine, So simple & nothing you can't fix without a nanocom and a sat phone.

I say to the Landrover Engineer , For Gods Sake keep Live Axles & Lockable Center diff. If the next Defender has Independent Suspension that would be proof to me that there is No GOD .

[MR LR]

Well something inside me reckons we will be nicely surprised by the next Defender, and i think the DC100 will have nothing to do with it, thats just to break into the FJcruiser/chrome Wrangler market (yuppies to us). I doubt it will be on the t5 chassis, it would surprise me if they threw away the old chassis completely though, maybe a re-introduction of the D2 chassis (with varying wheelbases).

Would make a good truck

Cheers
Will

[Ean Austral]

Where to put filters so you dont need to be ..
-Double jointed,
-hands that can stand the temps from an exhuast system,
-hands the size of a 5 yr old,
-pull half the car apart to get to
-That when you have to get to them that half the dirt that the car has gone thru doesn't fall in your face..ie D3 fuel filter..
-Stick your head in behind a tyre.

The rest would just flow from there...may need more than 5 mins..

Cheers Ean

[wagoo]

Q. What's Black and Blue and floats on water?







A. A LandRover drivetrain engineer after I've had 5 minutes with him.:mad:
Bill.

[Hymie]

I've left the fuse cover off. I'll calm down and try again tomorrow.....

[Sith]

I would drown him in the puddle where my foot sits on the accelerator

[DeanoH]

'Land Rover engineer', now there's an oxy-moron for you! Or maybe that should just be moron.:wasntme:

Anyway, I would like to ask said gentleman what they were smoking when they decided that overhead inlet side exhaust was a good engine design ? Next question would be why the market demographic for Defenders is for people under 5' 6'' ?
I would then enquire as to who came up with the brilliant concept of that little plastic clip on the clutch actuating rod, IMO crucifiction is too good for this person.;)

If I hadn't completely broken down by this stage my next enquiry would be directed to the TD5 development team and to the the idiot who didn't design any oil filter access, (perhaps the same person that decided the air con drain should go directly over the inhibitor switch ?).

As tempers could be getting a bit 'frayed' at this stage I would compliment him for the R380 (conveniently forgetting that it is actually a Santana product) but query as to why it needs a 32mm drain plug conveniently located above a cross member for maximum mess when draining. Probably an anti corrosion design concept but I'd like confirmation.

My 5 minutes are probably up and I haven't even mentioned Lucas as I figure the only reason LR persevered so long with their rubbish has to be kick backs, graft etc as there is no other obvious reason.

Deano:)

[PAT303]

Lots of cubic inches up front, preferably naturally aspirated. Turbos & intercoolers are just something else to be maintained, wear out, break down.

And most important of all, no electronics at all except the radio/cd player.

Electronically controlled vehicles are simply not suitable for remote area/extreme conditions use. Too unreliable, too prone to instantaneous failure.

I live in remote Australia and have had three electric controlled vehicles and all three did an excellent job,none were unreliable,prone to instantaneous failure or anything else,it's interesting that none of the modern Euro 4 compliant plant machines or road trucks suffer from any of those problems either. Pat

[PAT303]

hmmm, well for 1 forget all these namby pamby new soft roader models, we want a rebirth of the 110" and 120" 1980's era landies, all diesels, running a 4 cyl turbo cummins, isuzu or some other truck engine with an autobox option, a salisbury rear axle, decent a/c, no electric windows and stuff, some detachable door tops and a decent towball downforce rating. galv chassis, big fuel tank/s, and cupholders.

that'll do for starters.


jc

While I'll agree with you the namby pamby softroaders keep the coffers going which is a very important thing,they also bring a larger diverse group to the mark which again keeps the tills turning over. Pat

[jon3950]

I don't think the engineers are the problem, they've done an excellent job with the resources they've had. For many years, particularly under Leyland's stewardship, they were chronically underfunded.

I know a lot of you guys prefer the simplicity of the older vehicles and I respect that (and in many ways agree) but from an engineering perspective, the technology in the current models is nothing short of brilliant. The breadth of capability is staggering and the reliability of these complex systems is generally very good - except for that stupid D3 handbrake!

The marketing people on the other hand......

[p38arover]

I know a lot of you rubbish the P38A but, really, on the early ones (GEMS) like mine, there is very little that is hard to access or maintain.

Heater O-rings and aircon blend motors are a bit of a pain as is the coil pack location (but not as bad as on Thor engines). Not providing an access panel through the floor to the fuel pump was short-sighted. Forcing us HSE owners to have a sunroof was also a bad idea (ditto with Subaru and my wife's Forester).

Not fitting the original liners properly into the V8 blocks was a bad move. Not fitting tophat liners was short-sighted.

The electronics on my 17-yo P38A have been very reliable so I don't have any issues with their use in modern cars. I think the P38A is the last Rangie that can be successfully maintained by a home mechanic.

[Blknight.aus]

letting the bean counters and marketing gits get in the way of staying true to the original vehicular objectives.

[The ho har's]

I have had 5 minutes with a Land Rover engineer:)

His name is Arthur Goddard:) The first engineer Land Rover had, spent nearly the whole day with him in fact :D

I don't think he could do any thing different with a series 1:D;)

Mrs hh:angel:

[Blknight.aus]

I have had 5 minutes with a Land Rover engineer:)

His name is Authur Goddard:) The first engineer Land Rover had, spent nearly the whole day with him infact :D

Mrs hh:angel:

he was probably about the last engineer they had that got it right.

[Bigbjorn]

I live in remote Australia and have had three electric controlled vehicles and all three did an excellent job,none were unreliable,prone to instantaneous failure or anything else,it's interesting that none of the modern Euro 4 compliant plant machines or road trucks suffer from any of those problems either. Pat

You have been bloody lucky. I and plenty of others have had a right royal electronic rooting starting in 1972 with my first electronic ignition car. Numerous instananeous and catastrophic failures resulting in being stuck roadside with a dead vehicle, and a grossly expensive unrepairable component. All very well to say you can fix it with a nanocom and a satellite 'phone. They are no help at all when a major electronic box costing over $2,000 is fritzed. Who carries those sort of spares with them? Ask my mate who was towed into Mt. Isa in an up market Euro car to find that the dead box was not stocked in Australia. Dealer reckoned the distributor only carries cheaper fast moving parts and anything expensive is ordered from overseas.

Just look at the number of posts on this forum regarding LR elecronic problems and the owner's at their wit's end over them.

[DiscoMick]

You put PLASTIC plugs in the cooling system of the D1 300Tdi?:eek:

You used the lightest possible gauge in the springs in the door locks in the D1? Have you ever tried to replace one of those?:mad:

Oh, and congrats for getting most things right! :cool:

[PAT303]

You have been bloody lucky. I and plenty of others have had a right royal electronic rooting starting in 1972 with my first electronic ignition car. Numerous instananeous and catastrophic failures resulting in being stuck roadside with a dead vehicle, and a grossly expensive unrepairable component. All very well to say you can fix it with a nanocom and a satellite 'phone. They are no help at all when a major electronic box costing over $2,000 is fritzed. Who carries those sort of spares with them? Ask my mate who was towed into Mt. Isa in an up market Euro car to find that the dead box was not stocked in Australia. Dealer reckoned the distributor only carries cheaper fast moving parts and anything expensive is ordered from overseas.

Just look at the number of posts on this forum regarding LR elecronic problems and the owner's at their wit's end over them.

So what your saying is the best vehicle for outback Oz is a pre '72 build vehicle?,I could not source a plug for the water trap on a 1HZ troopy once,had to order it from Japan,6 week wait:eek:. Pat

[Homestar]

After pulling the seats and seat frames from my Classic Rangie this moring, I want to know why they thought so many bolts were required to hold them in.... In Jap cars, you only need to worry about 4, the Rangie seat base is held in by 10... Wouldn't have been so bad if they had captive nuts...

[Mike_S]

I just want to know why on earth they thought it a good idea on the D3/4/RRS to have suspension with the same amount of adjustment as a racecar, on a 4x4 that's got every chance of being battered about offroad and then make it such a massive pain in the arse to get it all reset. And then, why they fit steel camber bolts that seize up within a week of leaving the factory, when all it needs is a bit of copper grease to stop it all seizing up.

And while I'm at it with suspension ranting, why all the friggin bushes wear out in less than 40k miles when the competition doesn't suffer from that. Such an expensive vehicle shouldn't need the suspension bushes replacing every 5 minutes :mad:

[superquag]

The Incandescent lamp, not terribly efficient in turning amps into lumens but with a MAXIMUM of 11 points of potential failure ( invariably only one, the filament) generally WORKS and has a predictable life-span, whereas the CFL with dozens & dozens of components and over twice as many solder joints....:o

I believe magnetos are used in General Aviation (petrol) engines for the same reasons.

I'd ask the engineer why he and his colleagues remained with a company that so badly mis-managed their expertise in throwing together vehicles that progressively became less fit for purpose.

Or tell us when the 'purpose' specification was re-written.

[goingbush]

....

I believe magnetos are used in General Aviation (petrol) engines for the same reasons.

....

Ahh yes, but they have so much faith in them that they have dual magnetos, incase one fails. I guess its not like you can pop the hood & check the engine while your gliding.

Interestingly there is a EFII Dual ECU Dual Ignition for 4 Cylinder Lycoming Engines that replaces both magnetos.

http://www.flyefii.com/EFII_intro.htm

draw your own conclusions.

[superquag]

Agreed...

I started building CDI's back in the '70s, later on Transistor switching systems and Dwell-Extenders. - So its taken the aircraft industry FORTY years to build an acceptably reliable system.... (There's a few other reasons why magnetos have survived so long)
- Reading the Company blurb makes me wonder how on earth the WWII aircraft stayed up in the air, never mind the 70 years since.


Mine were setup so as to allow easy conversion back to basics after electronic failure. - Return to 'Original' performance, not a slow, or uncomfortable 'Limp-home mode', with an insulting repair-bill at the end of it.

I'd say that the technology and (my) implementation was appropriate for the time as it did'nt reduce the vehicle's 'fitness for purpose'...

[slug_burner]

I'd want to know why they thought that switching the full head lamp current through a switch on the steering column was a good idea. If they knew the automotive relay had been invented.

Then we would talk about the drive train, chocolate drive shafts, lubrication of splined shafts and gears.

Then we would have a beer and appreciate the rest of the vehicle.

[Bigbjorn]

So what your saying is the best vehicle for outback Oz is a pre '72 build vehicle?,I could not source a plug for the water trap on a 1HZ troopy once,had to order it from Japan,6 week wait:eek:. Pat

No, a 1980's County Isuzu is far and away better than any Land Rover built since. No electronics, instant starting no matter the temperature, 30 miles per gallon. If I parked it on a slope and drove only in daylight I could drive from Newman to Brisbane without any electrics at all!!!!!

By the way, any fitter-machinist could make that plug in less than an hour.

[superquag]

After pulling the seats and seat frames from my Classic Rangie this moring, I want to know why they thought so many bolts were required to hold them in.... In Jap cars, you only need to worry about 4, the Rangie seat base is held in by 10... Wouldn't have been so bad if they had captive nuts...

Thanks for the heads-up... eventually need to remove my seats and 'service' /fix the lumpy tracks & motors. - Not to mention the switch failures...
We won't even comment on the broken stitching in the "luxury" leather passenger seat...
Never had a problem with the front OR rear electric seats in my old Crown. Quieter and smooother.

Maybe ask the engineer why - 10 years later - they could'nt quite match the performance of a Jap TAXI.

[superquag]

No, a 1980's County Isuzu is far and away better than any Land Rover built since. No electronics, instant starting no matter the temperature, 30 miles per gallon. If I parked it on a slope and drove only in daylight I could drive from Newman to Brisbane without any electrics at all!!!!!

By the way, any fitter-machinist could make that plug in less than an hour.

Sure ? - The engine is stopped by.... a solonoid or pull-cable ?:p

Yes, but only a LR owner or Mechanic (same thing, eventually...:twisted:) would think of making one !

Why would you want to drive from Newman to.... Brisbane ??? :eek2:

(But it's past your bedtime, so we understand........)

[PAT303]

No, a 1980's County Isuzu is far and away better than any Land Rover built since. No electronics, instant starting no matter the temperature, 30 miles per gallon. If I parked it on a slope and drove only in daylight I could drive from Newman to Brisbane without any electrics at all!!!!!

By the way, any fitter-machinist could make that plug in less than an hour.

When I'm glad you think motoring excellence peaked with a 30 year old county.My Tdi,Td6,3.9 and TDCi all start/started first go too and I did find a plug that fitted but thats not the point.Like it or not modern vehicles are here to stay and after driving the Tdi and the Td5 I'm glad I bought the TDCi. Pat

[PAT303]

I just want to know why on earth they thought it a good idea on the D3/4/RRS to have suspension with the same amount of adjustment as a racecar, on a 4x4 that's got every chance of being battered about offroad and then make it such a massive pain in the arse to get it all reset. And then, why they fit steel camber bolts that seize up within a week of leaving the factory, when all it needs is a bit of copper grease to stop it all seizing up.

And while I'm at it with suspension ranting, why all the friggin bushes wear out in less than 40k miles when the competition doesn't suffer from that. Such an expensive vehicle shouldn't need the suspension bushes replacing every 5 minutes :mad:

No,the opposition make 100,000 dollar vehicles that need thier suspension changed the moment you take them off the lot.The bushes will last much longer if you drop the suspension before you stop. Pat

[Davo]

I live in remote Australia and have had three electric controlled vehicles and all three did an excellent job,none were unreliable,prone to instantaneous failure or anything else,it's interesting that none of the modern Euro 4 compliant plant machines or road trucks suffer from any of those problems either. Pat

I agree with you there, except for that when they do break down it's usually a big, big, headache. And I don't own one for the simple reason that I couldn't begin to afford the repair if something really bad did happen. So they have strayed from the easily-fixed mentality of the old days. I don't think it would be too hard for them to make the electronics easier and quicker to fix, rather than everything being a recovery to a dealer a long way away.

[Blknight.aus]

Sure ? - The engine is stopped by.... a solonoid or pull-cable ?:p



Pull cable, every single one of em.

[drivesafe]

5 minutes with one of them would get me 15 years in Sing Sing.

Before he ( or she ) stopped breathing I would ask why they are so determined to turn the D4 and RR, potentially the greatest off-roads ever built, into nothing more than pimp mobiles?

[rover-56]

Actually, I wouldn't ask one of them for anything - I would just make him remove and replace the TD5 D2 fuel pressure regulator.......:mad:

Terry

[frantic]

Besides the other Q's asked here, i would ask why they have for the last 15 years built a 7-9 seat wagon that 80-90% of that market cannot use without getting it modified.
Child seat bolts are they to complex to comprehend and install???:(
Every other wagon on the market has 2-4 of them in the seat backs, roof floor etc but LR in their wisdom force all tdi/td5 owners to get a bar behind the back seat.This results in the hassel that if you want to load a long item it's a 10-15 min job to fold the seats, undo the bar, rather than the 30 sec's in a prado ,disco.Then we have the newer tdci's with the nice interior which was deemed to hard to put a bolt in the back of the seats like say a playdo or their own disco so to get legal in those need an eng cert FFS.
Wonder if this had any effect on sales?

[away]

If I had five minutes with an LR engineer I'd ask them why they put on these ridiculous rim sizes that preclude buying any kind of decent off-road rubber for a vehicle that used to be built for off-road work (D3, D4, RRS, RR). Why not put more efficient brake components on the car instead and forgo the need to have giant rims to fit over the brake-pack? Dumb.

[Davo]

I sometimes wonder if factory types read these forums.

[TimNZ]

Don't know why there is so much hate directed to the engineers, I'd be having a go at the accountants.......

[d2dave]

hmmm, well for 1 forget all these namby pamby new soft roader models, we want a rebirth of the 110" and 120" 1980's era landies, all diesels, running a 4 cyl turbo cummins, isuzu or some other truck engine with an autobox option, a salisbury rear axle, decent a/c, no electric windows and stuff, some detachable door tops and a decent towball downforce rating. galv chassis, big fuel tank/s, and cupholders.

that'll do for starters.


jc

You forgot to add portal axles.

[superquag]

I sometimes wonder if factory types read these forums.

Too ignorant to know where to look, and too arrogant to take any notice !:twisted:

[Davo]

Just imagine - having all that opinion and marketing information easily available, free and without consultants and . . . oh, hang on, this is Land Rover we're talking about. Okay.

[uninformed]

Well Id love to have 15mins with Charles Spencer King.....bloody legend. But if it was the bean counters and production line designers Id have a sore hip and a sore foot from kicking them in the nuts.

[RVR110]

I sometimes wonder if factory types read these forums.

...and if they did they'd have to decide which of us they will incur the wrath of next time they make a decision. There's plenty of disagreement in this thread so it doesn't matter what they decide, it seems that the many of us will have a different view...

[Hymie]

Keep it going Fellers, (and Ladies too).
There have been some great observations coming out here.

[uninformed]

re the 10 bolts in the RRC seat base, if it was the old type with the seat belt built into the seat.......that may answer your question ;)

[scarry]

I had 13yrs of D2 Td5's & never ever had a electrical problem,and those vehicles didn't just sit in the garage!

The issue i see LR have ATM is nothing in the line up between the Puma & the Disco,no family wagon.

And those large wheels on the D4/RRS ,don't get me started.:mad::mad:

The other issue is their (LR) vehicles seem to have small fuel tanks,hopeless for a country such as Aus,particularly as they are often the best towing vehicles around.

[isuzutoo-eh]

I'd thank him for designing such a fun vehicle to drive, the fantastic suspension that works off road and on, for getting the seating position perfect for someone my height and stature and for using fully floating axles post early Series 1.
I would ask him to go back to the galvanised steel chassis (and firewall?) that were promised at the Amsterdam Motor Show in 1947 or whenever it was, and would they consider doing a road-registerable factory version of the Cuthbertson or Forest/Roadless Rover? :angel:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/178.jpg

[wagoo]

I'd thank him for designing such a fun vehicle to drive, the fantastic suspension that works off road and on, for getting the seating position perfect for someone my height and stature and for using fully floating axles post early Series 1.
I would ask him to go back to the galvanised steel chassis (and firewall?) that were promised at the Amsterdam Motor Show in 1947 or whenever it was, and would they consider doing a road-registerable factory version of the Cuthbertson or Forest/Roadless Rover? :angel:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/06/178.jpg

Both vehicles featured do appear to be road registered.
Little if any actual LandRover factory engineering went into these conversions, which were performed by independent engineering concerns.
The 4 track conversions were built by Cuthburtson for transport of their personnell for powerline maintenance on hilly snow covered tracks, mainly in Scotland. The conversion was also offered commercially but had few takers, probably due to the inadequately engineered mechanicals of the base Landrover, ie Clutches, main gearboxes, diffs/axles, steering gear etc .

I also have dreamt of owning one for over 40 years, but the Forest Rover, although built for use by the British Forest Service, was also offered commercially, and again only found a mere handful of customers, despite being built in an era when 4 wheel drive tractors were very rare. It is doubtful that such a vehicle based on a Defender platform would find commercial success against competition from the many different brands of more versatile and reliable 4wd tractors and other agricultural equipment available today.
Bill.

[JDNSW]

...

The other issue is their (LR) vehicles seem to have small fuel tanks,hopeless for a country such as Aus,particularly as they are often the best towing vehicles around.

This is a major problem, not just with Landrover. And with the more modern designs, there just is nowhere to put an extra tank of any size!

John

[DiscoMick]

Not just Land Rover. Our little Yaris only has a range of about 540km.

[Bigbjorn]

This is a major problem, not just with Landrover. And with the more modern designs, there just is nowhere to put an extra tank of any size!

John

Not just modern designs. Torana and Escort of the early 70's had only 9 gallon tanks. EJ & EH Holdens had not much more. 250 - max 300 mile range sucking fumes at the end.

Escort Mk II panel vans had a 6 gallon!! I accompanied a friend who had one from Brisbane to Melbourne to pick up a motor bike and a crate of parts. Twas necessary to stop and fuel up at every village down the Newell.

[mudmouse]

Yep, ditch the bloody sparks.

Decent cube N/A petrol and/or oiler, with appropriate fuel tank to match.

No power windows, aerial or central locking.

Bring back firewall vents for Defenders and get rid of most of the crappy interior plastics.

Rear diff lock.

Engineer it to be exempt from Registration :D


Matt.