carbon levy on refrigerants

[scarry]

Anyone one noticed the amount of carbon levy that is to be added to the cost of refrigerants?
The main refrigerants used in commercial refrigeration,R404a & r507 base wholesale costs will increase at least 300%.
This is on top of compounding increases during the last 2 months of approx 60% on all refrigerants,implemented by wholesalers & having nothing to do with the carbon levy,they say this is caused by increased business costs.

The only synthetic refrigerant that will not have a carbon levy is R22 that is being phased out.It is by far the most common refrigerant & has doubled in cost over the last 12 months,and increases will continue.

Looks like the govt has found a nice little cash cow,and do not realise that an increase of this amount is sure to cause massive pain.:(or more than likely,could not care less.

The other common refrigerants,such as R134a,r410a,r407c will rise in costs around 100 to 200%.

These refrigerants are imported,so the carbon used in the manufacturing is overseas.

These cost increases appear to be a lot of pain for very little,if any gain.

[Blknight.aus]

meh, aircons overrated anyway. 6 hp drain on the engine for no important reason. Powersteering, Automatic transmissions, electric windows, traction control ABS can all go the same way...

get off your butt, do some exersize and get the OEM armstrong powersteering units back and the quad drive brakes working properly, go play some sports to up the co-ordination between the hands and the feet and drive a manual then get some driving lessons...

hell of a lot cheaper in every respect..

:twisted:

go on, ask me if I care about the tax on fuel.

[feral]

Everyone is going to have their slice of the cake on this one.:twisted:

If the government thinks this tax is going to have a minimal impact on prices & the economy, it is misguided.

I will be recommending to contact the ACCC to all claims about the carbon tax.

The ACCC price hotline number 1300 303 609 and the ACCC's website also has information for both consumers and small business regarding the new impost.

[Ean Austral]

R22 is used on most trawlers and if buying 60kg bottle's we used to pay $12 / kg 2 yrs ago . Last year it went to $22 / kg :eek:, this year last quoted price was $38 / kg. :(:(

Then get a letter in the mail 3 weeks ago saying the price will rise significantly with the Carbon tax.

Doesn't sound much, but the system holds 200kg and carry 120kg spare.

Anyone want to buy a prawn trawler...

Cheers Ean

PS forgot to mention that have all the Gov levies ontop of those prices:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad ::mad:

[Ralph1Malph]

Excuse me!
I believe you have only told one half of the story!:mad:
We will all be amply compensated for the carbon dioxide tax.:p
You forgot that didn't you.:twisted:

Please tell the truth. No household will be worse off....I know.....I got a guvmint brochure about it the other day.:D:D:D:D

Ralph

[d2dave]

Bugger. Up go the prices of my favourite food. Prawns.

[Homestar]

Excuse me!
I believe you have only told one half of the story!:mad:
We will all be amply compensated for the carbon dioxide tax.:p
You forgot that didn't you.:twisted:

Please tell the truth. No household will be worse off....I know.....I got a guvmint brochure about it the other day.:D:D:D:D

Ralph

Very funny.:p I've got the same brochure, but I won't see ant compensation, or tax cuts, so I'm not sure how that all works. Maybe if I ask very nicely and show them their own brochure, then maybe they will give me some money...:D

[scarry]

yer,yer Dave blknight,you do like a cold beer?Oh,also groceries at the local shops?;):)
We could go to ice chests & dried meat?:o
I agree the old way is often better,but this is looked at as going backward:(

What's say we go back to the good old R12:)

Forgot to mention the greeny levy on each kg,that will stay for sure.

Oh & coles just bought 50000 kg's last month.Can't work out why?

In fact where possible the supermarket chain are going to R134a as it has less carbon levy than r404a.The system will use more power,but they are happy to pay this as power is very competitive,therefore the can get a good price.As for the carbon levy,well who knows what price it will be in a few yrs,now how long is a piece of string?

That refrigerant on the trawler may be worth more than the trawler.:o

Um,they keep saying it is only a tax on the big polluters?

Also,GST is on top of it as well............

[scarry]

R22 is used on most trawlers and if buying 60kg bottle's we used to pay $12 / kg 2 yrs ago . Last year it went to $22 / kg :eek:, this year last quoted price was $38 / kg. :(:(

Then get a letter in the mail 3 weeks ago saying the price will rise significantly with the Carbon tax.

Doesn't sound much, but the system holds 200kg and carry 120kg spare.

Anyone want to buy a prawn trawler...

Cheers Ean

PS forgot to mention that have all the Gov levies ontop of those prices:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad ::mad:

When we did the original install at the Logan Hyperdome,there were 22 large DX a/c systems,each one took 400kg's of R22.

This levy will break many businesses.

It will also break many A/C & refrig companies,the refrigerant in many jobs will be way more than the profit in the job:mad::mad::mad:

oh,the bottle rentals have suddenly gone up as well.............

The wholesalers have taken refrigerant out of any warranty claims on any of their equipment.

Insurance companies will probably wipe it off any of their policies as well,no doubt.

Testing times to say the least:mad:

[81rangie]

WOW that really does suck ..i just had to have another quick chat to the handbrake and told her what prices we could be looking at with the A/C in the rangie ..its bad enough that prices for refilling where i am range for $150-$180 with those possible ranging increases i could be looking at $260+ ...thats a joke ..like living cost is not hard enough especially on the doll trying to get work with no avail

[Blknight.aus]

yer,yer Dave blknight,you do like a cold beer?Oh,also groceries at the local shops?;):)



yep, but who needs a fridge? Dig a nice pit in some clean dry soil wet it down well, pour in a little petrol, stick the beer in, cover loosely with about 6 inches of soil wet that down then add more petrol, light and wait about 5 minutes. The beer will be cool.

Easy and as a bonus the extra work makes you appreciate the cold beer just that much more.

OR just stick 2 beers down the diffuser of a CO2 extinguisher point it vertically and give it short bursts, 5 half second bursts then take the cans out swap top to bottom and go again....

as for fruit and veg, we normally get our from the local growers market where its not only cheaper but nicer than the stuff from the local shops AND in less packaging.

[123rover50]

Oh well. Lets keep on using Propane:wasntme:

Didiman

[bob10]

R22 is used on most trawlers and if buying 60kg bottle's we used to pay $12 / kg 2 yrs ago . Last year it went to $22 / kg :eek:, this year last quoted price was $38 / kg. :(:(

Then get a letter in the mail 3 weeks ago saying the price will rise significantly with the Carbon tax.

Doesn't sound much, but the system holds 200kg and carry 120kg spare.

Anyone want to buy a prawn trawler...

Cheers Ean

PS forgot to mention that have all the Gov levies ontop of those prices:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad ::mad:
Wayne Swan is our Federal member. Perhaps you should raise your concerns in a letter , with the rest of the fishermen up here. It would be interesting to see if you get an answer. Bob

wayne Swan PO BOX 182 Nundah Brisbane Qld 4012

Ph. 07 3266 8244

www.swanmp.org (http://www.swanmp.org) [ I have found his staff to be approachable if done without malice. whether they will give you an appropiate answer is another thing]

[Blknight.aus]

Oh well. Lets keep on using Propane:wasntme:

Didiman

nahh it usually evaporates before you can get it into the soil so wont work.... however...

The jet powered beer cooler (http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/) solves that nicely

[bob10]

nahh it usually evaporates before you can get it into the soil so wont work.... however...

The jet powered beer cooler (http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/) solves that nicely

Have had beer Kimberley cool whilst on the road in the Territory. Do the old digger trick, tot of rum, down the hatch, put the dregs in the beer, you're a millionare for a day, Bob [the hangover, however....]

[scarry]

The beer wll be cool.


.

But we need the beer cold,not cool:)
Dry ice may help?

Yep,the extra work will also make you feel good and help with fitness.

Reminds me of the many days in the early 70's camping on Fraser island,during Christmas holidays.
No such things as fridges,we kept the marg & cheese in containers in the creek.
Many a fish was thrown back as we couldn't keep them,easy to catch a big feed in those days.

Um,poured 12 kg of R404a into a freezer room today,another broken discharge pipe.Now if that had happened in a couple of weeks time,ouch....:( the customer would not have been happy:mad:

[scarry]

Wayne Swan is our Federal member. Perhaps you should raise your concerns in a letter , with the rest of the fishermen up here. It would be interesting to see if you get an answer. Bob

wayne Swan PO BOX 182 Nundah Brisbane Qld 4012

Ph. 07 3266 8244

www.swanmp.org (http://www.swanmp.org) [ I have found his staff to be approachable if done without malice. whether they will give you an appropiate answer is another thing]

Don't bother,many letters have been written,all have been ignored.Our suppliers have also gone to the ACCC,also ignored.:mad:
The industry was not consulted at all..........

Thats the way it works,they make the rules,we just have to cop it AGAIN:mad:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Very funny.:p I've got the same brochure, but I won't see ant compensation, or tax cuts, so I'm not sure how that all works. Maybe if I ask very nicely and show them their own brochure, then maybe they will give me some money...:DYou dont understand, the government has changed the definition, if you are not on welfare and you actually pay tax you are not considered a "household" but are considered a government debtor and cash cow.

More than that, if the carbon tax is $23/tonne then the maximum increase on the refrigerants (if they were pure carbon and discharged to the atmosphere) should be 2.3¢/kg and given that they should remain in a sealed system there should be no tax because the gas is sequestrated in the system.

[scarry]

You dont understand, the government has changed the definition, if you are not on welfare and you actually pay tax you are not considered a "household" but are considered a government debtor and cash cow.

More than that, if the carbon tax is $23/tonne then the maximum increase on the refrigerants (if they were pure carbon and discharged to the atmosphere) should be 2.3¢/kg and given that they should remain in a sealed system there should be no tax because the gas is sequestrated in the system.

Exactly,but the way they work it out is a factor multiplied by that particular refrigerants global warming potential.

Looks like they just needed another $400 mill or so to throw down the nearest drain,and thought this is easy.:mad:

[ramblingboy42]

it is not a tax, nor is it a levy......
looks like the abbott propaganda machine is winning.....
dont challenge me on this, do your homework.....

[Davehoos]

the anti marine park dude on the abc claimed that QLD trawlers will ony have axcess to the coral sea and that is uneconomical to worry about fishing.

Ive handed my liecence in-and heard my old boss trying to get on the ABC last week--but the alloy smelters with 600 plus job losses due to not wanting to pay for power seamed more important to them.

[Ralph1Malph]

it is not a tax, nor is it a levy......
looks like the abbott propaganda machine is winning.....
dont challenge me on this, do your homework.....

Go on..........:cool:

[scarry]

R22 is used on most trawlers and if buying 60kg bottle's we used to pay $12 / kg 2 yrs ago . Last year it went to $22 / kg :eek:, this year last quoted price was $38 / kg. :(:(

Then get a letter in the mail 3 weeks ago saying the price will rise significantly with the Carbon tax.

Doesn't sound much, but the system holds 200kg and carry 120kg spare.

Anyone want to buy a prawn trawler...

Cheers Ean

PS forgot to mention that have all the Gov levies ontop of those prices:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad ::mad:

The new cost price for R22 rolled off the fax today from one of our suppliers,$58/KG:o
plus greeny levy plus GST

It gets better,R134a,if i get last weeks cost price,add on $30 for the carbon tax,which is the correct amount for this refrigerant,base price has actually gone up $32/KG:mad: overnight.
So our actual buy cost is old cost plus $30 plus another $32/kg??????

Now lets try R404a,get last weeks cost price,add the correct amount of carbon tax,there is a difference of$26.50/kg.:mad:

I asked the supplier what is going on,they say business costs?

Maybe the market will sort it out by itself,as said no good going to the ACCC,waste of time.

More than likely the suppliers are playing cat & mouse between themselves,so it should get sorted in the next month or so,hopefully!

[Vern]

was installing a new meat case today at my local supermarket, the fridgey there who is a mate was telling me how much it had gone up, i didn't think to much of it until he pulled a bottle of R404A out which looked not much bigger than a 9kg gas bottle(it was 16kg), $6000:eek::eek::eek:. It has gone up from around $55 a kg to $377 a kg.
So if the other supermarket where we do a lot of work at for some reason dropped its gas, it would cost $40,000 to refill as apposed to a few days ago only costing $6000.
Big bickies

[superquag]

Will the carbon tax affect those naughty 'propane/butane/Bang' type gasses as much ?

Local rag estimated the co$t of a car re-gas in the order of plus $30.

[JohnF]

Carbon ta hit alsorts of things. One guy has just paid 10% more to hire a skip bin because of the carbon tax.

[Ralph1Malph]

Carbon ta hit alsorts of things. One guy has just paid 10% more to hire a skip bin because of the carbon tax.

Yes it is expected. Steel is used to make skip bins ergo carbon dioxide is produced ergo the carbon tax applies.
Now some will say the skip is already built pre carbon tax. this true but businesses must keep cash flow positive so all new bins and repairs must be charged at an average post carbon tax rate.

Cheers

[mudmouse]

Eh??

Is Tony Abbott a refrigeration mechanic or supplier??

These stated price increases are from the blokes holding invoices.

The entire premise of Global Warming is propaganda and threats of the end of the world by increased temperature and rising sea levels....and the Government are labeling anyone challenging it a 'denier' or someone who is 'negative'???

Can't get much more negative that saying the world is doomed...

Matt.

[frantic]

it is not a tax, nor is it a levy......
looks like the abbott propaganda machine is winning.....
dont challenge me on this, do your homework.....
Have you? julia called it a carbon tax on the abc several months ago, Q&A from memory:D
Abbott doesnt need a propaganda machine just let Julia and the ex brown greens make a compromised decision to shoot themselves in the foot and alienate more voters. They are becoming more like howard's govt every day: New tax yes, 457 visa workers to reduce pay yes , dirty file for opposition yes.
The only thing they have not done(YET) is resurect wonkchoices but from what ive heard/seen about fairspank Aust. it's not much better and worse than the state based systems.

[Ean Austral]

it is not a tax, nor is it a levy......
looks like the abbott propaganda machine is winning.....
dont challenge me on this, do your homework.....

Can you please explain to me using your knowledge why the price increase on the attached sheet have occured.

just remember these price increase's next time you want your air con regased and you see the bill..Most cars use 404a I believe, so check out that increase...

Cheers Ean

[incisor]

anyone with an IQ above 5 can see it is a blatant grab for more money by the gas manufacturers.

they themselves reckon it isnt just the carbon tax but a collection of reasons ranging from compliance to manufacturing costs.

any such price rises occurring in other parts of the world that would help justify their position?

[Ean Austral]

anyone with an IQ above 5 can see it is a blatant grab for more money by the gas manufacturers.

they themselves reckon it isnt just the carbon tax but a collection of reasons ranging from compliance to manufacturing costs.

any such price rises occurring in other parts of the world that would help justify their position?

You are correct, but the position is this will effect evryone. I have letters from transport companies telling of price increases blamed on the new levies on gas but also the rule's on gas storage and handling which are effecting their costs which will in the end be pasted on.

Me personally, I have spent over $1000 in the last 2 yrs just to get my refrigeration handling license revaladated because I fit in a "GREY" area in the new rules, add $250 a year in fee's just to hold the license and it gets expensive.

I bet the ACCC wont do a thing, even though as per the price list I provided show's it's a blatant rip-off.

Cheers Ean

[isuzurover]

Can you please explain to me using your knowledge why the price increase on the attached sheet have occured.

just remember these price increase's next time you want your air con regased and you see the bill..Most cars use 404a I believe, so check out that increase...

Cheers Ean

That doesn't make sense - R22 has only increased in price by ~70%

Sounds like you should switch back to R22, or switch to R290 (propane).

[Ean Austral]

That doesn't make sense - R22 has only increased in price by ~70%

Sounds like you should switch back to R22, or switch to R290 (propane).

No quite , R22 was only $32kg at 1-1-12.

Cheers Ean

[Ean Austral]

That doesn't make sense - R22 has only increased in price by ~70%

Sounds like you should switch back to R22, or switch to R290 (propane).

The factories coolrooms at work use the 507, the trawlers still use R22

Cheers Ean

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The factories coolrooms at work use the 507, the trawlers still use R22

Cheers EanMaybe time to consider Care 50 or one of the other brand hydrocarbon refrigerant replacements for R22/R407C?

[superquag]

Maybe time to consider Care 50 or one of the other hydrocarbon refrigerants?

YES :D

[Ratel10mm]

NO!!! Flammable refrigerants are restricted to small capacity systems (a few Kg of refrigerant in the UK iirc) for what should be fairly obvious reasons. Most Care refrigerants are flammable between 3 & 10% by volume. All electrical gear used with these refrigerants (in the UK) MUST, by law, be explosive environment approved. That means not only all the electrical in the fridge, but all your vac pumps, reclaim units, charging scales, etc, etc too.
Of course, here in Oz where we lead the world and know better than everyone else, maybe we don't bother with all that eh? Dunno, I just avoid the stuff.

I can't eat shellfish, but I presume those of you who do appreciate Ean's service would rather his trawler doesn't 'mysteriously' blow up at sea?

[scarry]

Maybe time to consider Care 50 or one of the other brand hydrocarbon refrigerant replacements for R22/R407C?

NO WAY............That stuff would be nice sitting in the bottom of a trawler:mad:

This refrigerant price gouging needs to be looked into by someone with some balls:mad::mad:

R507/R404a,which is basically the same stuff,can even be mixed is the big looser in all this.It had a 60% increase in price during May & June,and now has around $75/KG added becase of the carbon tax:mad::mad:

We use this stuff all day,like water..........

And actually about another $25 has also been added 1st july per KG as well due to "business costs"

The whole refrigerant wholesale pricing structure stinks:mad:

[scarry]

I bet the ACCC wont do a thing, even though as per the price list I provided show's it's a blatant rip-off.

Cheers Ean

Exactly

Just lucky we don't use R23:o

You should see the prices from the other suppliers:mad::mad::mad:

I bought 134a for $14.70/KG in late June,on Friday it $58.These prices are plus GST & greeny $2.30.As it has $30 of Carbon tax applied,how did it get to $58.
Just another blatent rip off.....:mad:

[scarry]

No quite , R22 was only $32kg at 1-1-12.

Cheers Ean

Dunno,i was buying it for $19.50 on 1/1/12.Last Friday i could get it for $39/kg as one of the suppliers did not add the Carbon Tax until the 9/7/12.
These prices are plus GST @ greeny fees.

They rang me to see if i wanted some,my answer was thanks but no thanks,as with the stock we have,we shouldn't be buying to much for the next 12 months or so.:)

[83rangie]

Oh well. Lets keep on using Propane:wasntme:

Didiman


nahh it usually evaporates before you can get it into the soil so wont work.... however...

The jet powered beer cooler (http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/) solves that nicely


I think he means the bushies, who run LPG in the actual AC system. :eek:
(old trick) 300g isn't much I guess.

I think I'd stick to Hychill-30, if going down that route. :p

[d2dave]

Dunno,i was buying it for $19.50 on 1/1/12.Last Friday i could get it for $39/kg as one of the suppliers did not add the Carbon Tax until the 9/7/12.
These prices are plus GST @ greeny fees.

They rang me to see if i wanted some,my answer was thanks but no thanks,as with the stock we have,we shouldn't be buying to much for the next 12 months or so.:)

Paul. As you have 12 months supply at the old price, does that mean your customers also get the old price when you service a fridge?

[isuzurover]

No quite , R22 was only $32kg at 1-1-12.

Cheers Ean

But any price rises prior to 1/7/12 were not due to the carbon tax.

Anyone have a price on R290?

This might be of interest:
http://w.mycoolingtower.com.au/downloads/2003-11-02.pdf

Isn't Dougal still using BBQ bottle Propane??? $2/kg from Bunnings ;) :D

[Ratel10mm]

But any price rises prior to 1/7/12 were not due to the carbon tax

Hey, did you know the steel in the Eiffel tower has to be replaced? I'm the exclusive scrap dealer for the project. Can I interest you in a sure-fire business proposition? ;)

[superquag]

Hey, did you know the steel in the Eiffel tower has to be replaced? I'm the exclusive scrap dealer for the project. Can I interest you in a sure-fire business proposition? ;)

You might have, if you'd done your homework... ;) Eiffel tower is built of iron ...

:p:p:p

[Blknight.aus]

yes but with the addition of the carbon from the TAX, its become steel.

[blitz]

Will the carbon tax affect those naughty 'propane/butane/Bang' type gasses as much ?

Local rag estimated the co$t of a car re-gas in the order of plus $30.

I have a email from the national training body regarding all of this anyone want to read it pm me your email addy and I will forward it on.

If I knew how to put it here I would

[bee utey]

/
If I knew how to put it here I would

Copy and paste, my friend. You can copy any text on your computer, paste it here, highlight it, hit the "wrap quote tags around selected text" button next to the picture button and it looks quite professional.:)

[blitz]

Copy and paste, my friend. You can copy any text on your computer, paste it here, highlight it, hit the "wrap quote tags around selected text" button next to the picture button and it looks quite professional.:)

Ok will see what I can do but will have to crank up the laptop so I can get to my emails

[Ratel10mm]

You might have, if you'd done your homework... ;) Eiffel tower is built of iron ...

:p:p:p

I'd forgotten that, but assuming it's wrought iron that's even better. Blacksmiths are always looking for a supply of WI! :D (It's not made any more as it's too cost ineffective compared to mild steel. And by the way Wrought Iron is the material. These days it seems marketers use 'wrought iron' for any product they think looks like a blacksmith made it. :rolleyes: )

[blitz]

here is the hyperlink to the carbon tax and refrigrants

http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/ozone/sgg/index.html#carbonprice (http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/ozone/sgg/index.html#carbonprice)

There is a free seminar being held in every capital city the brochure is 2 meg so if you want it pm me and I will forward it to your email addy

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Now that there's this exorbitant tax on sythetic refrigerants with high global warming potential. It has to be the time to convert to natural hydrocarbon refrigerants.

[isuzurover]

here is the hyperlink to the carbon tax and refrigrants

http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/ozone/sgg/index.html#carbonprice (http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/ozone/sgg/index.html#carbonprice)

There is a free seminar being held in every capital city the brochure is 2 meg so if you want it pm me and I will forward it to your email addy

This may also be useful:
http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/climate-change/carbon-management/Worksheet_1-Refrigerants.pdf

It is clear from this thread that one thing the carbon tax will do is greatly increase the uptake of "green" refrigerants such as HCs.

[blitz]

It is clear from this thread that one thing the carbon tax will do is greatly increase the uptake of "green" refrigerants such as HCs.

I have organised for myself and my trainers to get the mandatory trainer training so we can deliver it for industry. Co2, hydrocarbons and ammonia

[scarry]

Paul. As you have 12 months supply at the old price, does that mean your customers also get the old price when you service a fridge?

Don't service any fridges.......;)

On the big stuff,we will have to use the old prices or we won't win too many jobs.

Which brings up another issue,our suppliers have 10's of thousands of dollars of the stuff in stock that they did not pay the tax on,yet are charging it out with thetax added:confused:


Anyway,rants over,i have had my say,just have to wait & see what happens in the next few months.

[incisor]

Carbon tax uncertainty cripples refrigeration industry - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-11/carbon-tax-speculatoin-crippling-refrigeration-industry/4123572)

[incisor]

Watchdog hit with 630 carbon tax complaints - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-12/watchdog-hit-with-630-carbon-tax-complaints/4125268)

[scarry]

And to add further,quote from today's Courier mail page 48,

" Mr Sims said complex investigations were looking at massive price rises for refrigerant gases"

Rod Sims is chairman of the ACCC.

Now let's wait & see if they actually do anything.......................

[jasonedu]

You dont understand, the government has changed the definition, if you are not on welfare and you actually pay tax you are not considered a "household" but are considered a government debtor and cash cow.

More than that, if the carbon tax is $23/tonne then the maximum increase on the refrigerants (if they were pure carbon and discharged to the atmosphere) should be 2.3¢/kg and given that they should remain in a sealed system there should be no tax because the gas is sequestrated in the system.

The price is based on $23 per ton of CO2 equivilent. for example the refridgerent R134a has as much global warming potential of 1300 tonnes of CO2 so the levy on each ton is $29900.

[jasonedu]

the one other thing i would add is that my understanding is that the levy is on the import of these gases. So unless you are purchasing stock that has been imported since 1 July you are probably just getting ripped off.

i would try reporting it to the ACCC. enough people do then maybe something will happen. saying they wont do anything but not bothering to try is not going to help :-)

[d2dave]

The price is based on $23 per ton of CO2 equivilent. for example the refridgerent R134a has as much global warming potential of 1300 tonnes of CO2 so the levy on each ton is $29900.

I don't fully understand this. How much R134a has the potential of 1300 tonnes of co2

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I don't fully understand this. How much R134a has the potential of 1300 tonnes of co2It's actually a different measure, the synthetic refrigerants have a greater GW potential because they last longer (years) in the atmosphere than natural refrigerants. (Not broken down because they are synthetic.)

[scarry]

For the refrig. guys on here,can you believe R404a wholesale price in New Zealand is less than $ AU 9.00/kg. today.

We are definitely getting ripped off here in Aus.:mad:

That is about a third of the price we were paying before the massive cost increases 1st July 2012.:mad::mad:

Oh, and R22 in NZ is around $AU 13.00KG.

[rick130]

It's actually a different measure, the synthetic refrigerants have a greater GW potential because they last longer (years) in the atmosphere than natural refrigerants. (Not broken down because they are synthetic.)

What the regulators failed to acknowledge is that only a tiny % of refrigerants are accidentally released into the atmosphere.

Unlike a fossil fuel which is burnt and released, we try and keep the stuff inside the system !

[rick130]

Here's the RRP/list price of various refrigerants from the largest national wholesaler.

R134a $175.93/kg

R410a $232.32/kg (current air cond. refrig)

R404a $232.32/kg (a small supermarket system I service takes 20kg of this stuff in just the 8 door dairy display and coolroom)

R507a $393.36

R407c $216.45

R22 $165.82

R409a $184.63 (an R12 replacement)

R408a $282.09

R123 $205.32

These are all excl. GST and the $2.30/kg RRA/industry levy






It's all getting a little silly.

[JDNSW]

What the regulators failed to acknowledge is that only a tiny % of refrigerants are accidentally released into the atmosphere.

Unlike a fossil fuel which is burnt and released, we try and keep the stuff inside the system !

It would be interesting to know the actual proportion that is released. As I see it, most of the refrigerant that is sold retail (what we are talking about the price of) is used to replace leakage. What proportion of total refrigerant produced this represents, I have no idea. But if you add that from improperly discarded equipment, I suspect it will be fairly high.

John

[scarry]

Rick,
Think that 404a price is to good to believe;)

The retail from my supplier is around $370 K/G,similar to R507.


It is getting more than silly............!:mad::mad:

Trying to price repairs is a nightmare:mad:

Oh well,things could be worse i suppose..............

I actually went to a job today that takes around 8kg of 404a,has virtually none in the system,split tube inside an evaporator coil that is less than 5yrs old.These are the things that happen in our game all day,and there is virtually nothing we can do about it.

[scarry]

So unless you are purchasing stock that has been imported since 1 July you are probably just getting ripped off.



EXACTLY,but has anything been done about this?

Nothing.

Months ago ACCC were in the media saying they were doing a complicated investigation into the massive increase in refrigerant prices,but it appears nothing has been done about it.

Every refrigerant wholesaler that i know of doubled our buying price on the 1st July 2012,and then added the carbon levy.

Nice little earning.:(

[rick130]

It would be interesting to know the actual proportion that is released. As I see it, most of the refrigerant that is sold retail (what we are talking about the price of) is used to replace leakage. What proportion of total refrigerant produced this represents, I have no idea. But if you add that from improperly discarded equipment, I suspect it will be fairly high.

John

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that John, but it would be a really interesting exercise to work out, and I'm sure industry has in their submissions to Govt over the last several years.

In fact I have an industry submission paper here somewhere and it should have those numbers on it, but I'm just too lazy to go looking :angel:



Fridges that are dumped at council tips have the refrigerant properly recovered (if it's still there) and commercial systems will have it recovered for re-use/re-processing but yes, a lot escapes to the atmosphere, a hell of a lot.

[frantic]

So these gases are selling for around $200+ LESS per kg in N.Z or PNG than here. How long till we get a container load similar to the tobacco smugglers?
P.s whats the penalty for false labeled gases or have they let that pass like they did with ciggies /tobacco where the fine was less than the profit from the goods and no jail. Has now been fixed.

[frantic]

When the Label Lies: Counterfeit Refrigerant | The Refrigerant Authority Blog (http://refrigerantauthority.com/blog/when-the-label-lies-counterfeit-refrigerant/)
http://new.unep.org/ozonaction/Portals/105/documents/webinar/2012/MichaelBennett_Webinar250712_Ppt.pptx


It's happened before:eek:
And this one killed 2 workers:
TT Talk - Contaminated Refrigerant Gases in Reefer Containers (http://www.ttclub.com/knowledge-store/article/tt-talk-contaminated-refrigerant-gases-in-reefer-containers-industry-action-5106/)

[scarry]

When the Label Lies: Counterfeit Refrigerant | The Refrigerant Authority Blog (http://refrigerantauthority.com/blog/when-the-label-lies-counterfeit-refrigerant/)
http://new.unep.org/ozonaction/Portals/105/documents/webinar/2012/MichaelBennett_Webinar250712_Ppt.pptx


It's happened before:eek:
And this one killed 2 workers:
TT Talk - Contaminated Refrigerant Gases in Reefer Containers (http://www.ttclub.com/knowledge-store/article/tt-talk-contaminated-refrigerant-gases-in-reefer-containers-industry-action-5106/)

Happened here as well,Heatcraft one of the major wholesalers in this industry had contaminated refrigerant in some imported drop in type refrigeration units.

Methyl chloride has also turned up mixed with other refrigerants at refrigerant recyclers here in Aus.After a lot of investigation it was never determined where it came from,although they suspect it was from refrigerant reclaimed from refrigeration systems on containers.

[frantic]

Thanks for that.
What I would really like to know is whats the penalty for importing a container filled with refrigerant that is labeled as something else that does not attract carbon tax?
As I said the govt stuffed it with smokes/ tobaccos where the profit was far more than the possible penalty with no jail time. They fixed it later.

[d2dave]

Thanks for that.
What I would really like to know is whats the penalty for importing a container filled with refrigerant that is labeled as something else that does not attract carbon tax?
As I said the govt stuffed it with smokes/ tobaccos where the profit was far more than the possible penalty with no jail time. They fixed it later.

Are you planning on bring in a load? Trying to work out profit margin after the fines eh?:wasntme:

[frantic]

No just wondering how customs would check. Its not like a container of pots or loos stuffed with tobacco that became common after they stopped growing it here.
Im fairly sure there is a few on the way already, just worried that the supplier will do a near enough is good enough and as its illegal import the one who will suffer will be the bloke on the end using it. Also that the wrong gas can hurt people that the penalty wont match the crime or be any sort of deterant.
Then again if its just a 50c fine for putting NOS stickers over R### stickers let's do a group buy! :D 20 T container x $100 profit per kg = $2million:eek::eek:
That would cover a few mods to my defend:Der.

[d2dave]

Count me in:twisted:

[superquag]

Almost worth re-gassing your car with LPG... the repairs (?) would cost le$$ than the price of C-tax inflated gas !:p:p:p

[ezyrama]

Hi All
I am in the refrigeration wholesale business and you are correct, everyone is being ripped at every level, it cost about $8k every 2 years in licences to import EACH type of refrigerant. I have a data sheet at work i will post tomorrow about the charges on each gas. I gave all this information to my local Australia Party campaign manager, he gave it to the federal member and Abbott has it as well, as soon as they tried to raise the issue in parliment, swann used his powers to shut down question time and stifle debate. combet said he would look into it and have the accc crack down but all they have done so far is go after one contractor who said all his prices on refrigerant have increased by $$$$ amount because of the carbon tax.(IMHO) they are only trying to protect thier own arses until everyone just accepts this. I have been told that if I put down a figure and it's not correct I can be fined up to 1.1m for misleading the public when these bastards do it on a daily basis and get paid to do it.
19/9/12 Found the document and attached it.

[scarry]

So to bring up an old thread,looks like they have had a look at what went on,certainly took them a while…..

The other wholesalers must have worded their letters to their customers differently as those prices were pretty consistent from all suppliers at the time


Actrol Parts Pty Ltd to pay $520,000 for carbon tax related false or misleading representations | ACCC (http://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/actrol-parts-pty-ltd-to-pay-520000-for-carbon-tax-related-false-or-misleading-representations)

[Blknight.aus]

I don't fully understand this. How much R134a has the potential of 1300 tonnes of co2

a down and dirty anology is the SG of battery acid its based off of the specific gravity of water. A charged battery has a higher SG and a flat battery a lower one. in this case instead of comparing it to water you compare it to c02 and a higher number is bad a lower number is good.



No just wondering how customs would check.

sampling and weight/vol/temp/pressure checks.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

[Davehoos]

Global-warming potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global-warming_potential)




2
customs impound an item and you pay to prove you complied with regs and standards-etc.

[scarry]

No just wondering how customs would check. Its not like a container of pots

Very difficult to check,particularly if it is a mixture.

There is one,maybe two at the most places in this country that would be able to check what the refrigerant type or mixture is.
Most 'pure' refrigerants are a mixture anyway.

[Davehoos]

Normally a paper trail. You have to be unlucky to have to get it tested, as it should have been tested before you purchased it from a reputable contact.


Customs held my car until I sent a declaration that the car was not fitted with air conditioning. I had no paper work to show that it had been degassed or upgraded to R134a.

[Davehoos]

Most refridgeration workshops have a gas Identifier. don't know how accurate they are as Ive only used these with known gasses or to test contamination or to test for hydrocarbon mixtures.

[scarry]

Most refridgeration workshops have a gas Identifier. don't know how accurate they are as Ive only used these with known gasses or to test contamination or to test for hydrocarbon mixtures.

From what i have seen,they are not worth having.
You are better off using a P/T chart;)
And they aren't much use when you have a cocktail.:(

The specialists are the only way.

[Davehoos]

The unit I have used at my last employer are at least 10-15 years old and the size of a laptop. it would allow you to print out report on an external print out.


I worked for a reclaim gas salvage business. salvage auction vehicles have loads of different type gas used.


I have seen gas detectors that indicate types of gas, about as accurate as pressure versus temperature charts.

[rick130]

I've only ever used a PT chart.