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Gords
27th June 2012, 08:37 PM
G'Day all!


A month or so back after not using my 08 TDV6 D3 for circa 5 days I found two dead batteries;
- Cranking battery = Supercharge SMF85L (750cca)
- Deep cycle = Optima Yellow Top D34

These were connected by a standard solenoid isolator installed by the previous owner. Immediately I suspected the isolator at fault when I noticed it was hot after the car hadn’t been used. To replace this, I now have a Traxide USI-160 which is great (big thanks to drivesafe for his expertise & tech support!).

When checking the batteries soon after I realised that a drain was still present. Taking the Optima D34 out of the equation I was convinced that it was the cranking battery on the way out. After replacing this, it became evident that it wasn't the solution. At this point I began the painful exercise of ruling out all electrical accessories.

With no answer in sight I turned to Rafael at Moorooka Car Electrics who (for free I must add) did a great job and checked all over the car and determined all accessories were wired up A1 and that I had about a 0.5A drain. He then worked out that the fuse identified as F17 (red 50A) (raised fuse in the photo) under the hood was draining about 0.28A with no evidence of where the extra 0.22 was going to and suggested that it could be standard draw by the suspension / computers when sitting unused. The guys at MR Automotive confirmed this. The book doesn’t seem to tell me what this fuse is as the book thinks 17 is a blue 15A Diesel EMS fuse, however this doesn’t transpire (red 50A). Taking this fuse out I notice;
- No ability to lock / unlock / use the LR button on the key fob.
- No external temperature reading on the dash.

If anyone could shed some light on this frustrating drain & possible causes / fixes I’d really appreciate it.
Cheers,
Rob

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6397/img4273ry.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9996/img4272.JPG

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/4493/img4274y.jpg

Graeme
27th June 2012, 09:16 PM
That's a fusible link, not a normal fuse. The fusible links normally provide power to standard fuses. Fuse 17 notation is further towards the top of the fuse cover.

FL17 only supplies some fuses in the junction/fuse box.

Edit: If you weren't already aware, there's another fuse box behind the passenger glove box.

bbyer
28th June 2012, 12:36 AM
Interesting, I never thought about the removable fusible links being sort of in the supply chain to the smaller fuses - that is good to know.

Anyway, a few months ago, I was also having engine starting problems and assumed it may be some electrical draw problem. Ultimately I needed a new starter motor, but in my search for the solution, I started pulling fuses trying to determine normal draw on the battery when the 3 was asleep.

This turned out not be just a simple task of letting the 3 go to sleep and then measuring amp draw on the negative battery post side. (I disconnected the ground cable from the negative battery post and then inserted an amp meter between the end of the ground cable and the negative battery post. I think it is safer that way.)

Initially I found the draw to be two or three amps so I assumed that all must not be asleep or I had a draw problem. I had rolled the driver side window down so as to keep the interior lights off but assumed that since the 3 was not locked, that perhaps that was the problem. Then when I attempted to lock the 3 to immediately put all to sleep, because the bonnet was still up, the vehicle would not lock. As I wanted the bonnet open to get access to the battery, I then manually forced the bonnet alarm sensor switch into the locked closed position and this allowed the vehicle to lock and go to sleep with the bonnet still open.

The amp meter then showed an approximate half amp draw, (0.5 amps), which I regard as normal for most vehicles, the 3 included. That also meant that I did not have a current draw problem somewhere in the 3.

That still left me with figuring out the starting problem, but at least I knew it was not battery draw down related.

I have the Rosen overhead DVD entertainment display and noted with the 3 unlocked, that the Rosen takes its time to shut down, (like about ten minutes), even with the display door closed.

I do not know if that is the way the Rosen is supposed to be that that is how mine seems to operate. The immediate solution is to lock the vehicle and that shuts it down at once. The DVD player was where the big draw was coming from when I did the initial testing. I also noted that even with the 3 unlocked, when the Rosen does finally shut down, (no blue light showing in the DVD slot), that the battery draws drops to about the half amp number so eventually, all was good.

Graeme
28th June 2012, 04:12 PM
Interesting, I never thought about the removable fusible links being sort of in the supply chain to the smaller fuses - that is good to know.I should have written that fusible links often provide power to normal fuses. I spotted at least 4 in the wiring diagram that do just that, but some others are just heavy fuses to devices that can draw a lot of current.

Gords
29th June 2012, 05:39 AM
Thanks guys, that makes a bit of sense... The search continues! Haha

Its interesting bbyer, that you noticed a 0.5A draw at rest as that's the draw I have sending the batteries flat... I would have thought that half an amp continuous draw would mean that the car couldn't be left standstill for mor than a few days.

Also the fact that the FL17 seems to pick up locking and unlocking, which obviously needs to be operational once the car is left makes me think that the power going to that fuse link is most likely being consumed properly... Also that as you mentioned without the bonet shut and locked it might be drawing more power that it would once it's locked up as the computers might be more active when unlocked.

Food for thought, cheers guys!

bbyer
29th June 2012, 06:10 AM
Yes, I would agree that even 0.5 amp is still a fair draw over a number of days. I have heard that there is a more dormant state that kicks in after maybe a day or so, but I do not know that for certain.

It seems that for the most part, one can leave the 3 parked for a couple of weeks or so, say at an airport, and it still starts. At the same time, I have heard of guys using the battery from an 18 volt cordless drill to jump start their 3 after a week at an airport - just provided the needed extra power it seems.

If it makes you feel any better, my early 2000 Chev pickup did not last for more than two weeks when parked. About all it had was an engine computer, a door lock remote system and radio/clock keep alive circuits.

My nineties Buick Roadmaster was somewhat better - closer to a month and then dead.

AGRO
29th June 2012, 09:11 AM
With all this fine detective work, "educated" guesswork and the critiical nature of the hidden current draws I wonder why the forum cannot get a definitive techinical statement from LR as to what really happens.

Many questions surrounding the "mysteries" of the LR electrics seem to arise in this forum. The car has been around many years in its current form - maybe there is a technical paper or well informed LR insider around that can enlighten us all.

Gords
29th June 2012, 09:42 AM
With all this fine detective work, "educated" guesswork and the critiical nature of the hidden current draws I wonder why the forum cannot get a definitive techinical statement from LR as to what really happens.

Many questions surrounding the "mysteries" of the LR electrics seem to arise in this forum. The car has been around many years in its current form - maybe there is a technical paper or well informed LR insider around that can enlighten us all.

If only!

drivesafe
29th June 2012, 09:57 AM
Hi Gords and your USI-160 isolator draws about 140ma until in SHEARED mode, till the common battery voltage gets to 12.0v then the USI-160 shuts off and it’s draw is less than 10ma.

Hi bbyer, and your SC80 draws about 240ma till it shuts down then it draws about 5ma.

In both cases, your cranking batteries are left with about 50% of the capacity which is heaps for starting a number of times in the coldest of weather conditions.

With fully charged cranking and auxiliary batteries, your isolators should not turn off unless your vehicles have been left unused for at least 2 weeks. 3 and 4 weeks is common for the isolators to remain on, which means your batteries voltages will not have dropped to 12.0v


NOTE, the power the SC80 and the USI-160 is by design, heaps less than any other isolator and this is why they can be run for so long without discharging your batteries in a few days.

Normal solenoid isolators draw around 700+ma.

bbyer
1st July 2012, 04:42 PM
NOTE, the power the SC80 and the USI-160 is by design, heaps less than any other isolator and this is why they can be run for so long without discharging your batteries in a few days.

Normal solenoid isolators draw around 700+ma. I had forgotten about the fact that in a dual battery system that the isolators would also be a current draw. I suppose in the case of my Traxide SC80, the draw, even though it is small, is from the second battery rather than the main.

Anyway, that is another reason buying a kit which is specifically designed for the 3, (such as the Traxide SC80), makes more sense than a one model fits all alternate.

Tonight I was talking to a heavy equipment supervisor and they are starting to get some of this new technolgy in their Cats and Scrapers as well as Loaders. A broken conductor somewhere in a half million dollar unit will normally shut it down for a couple of days while the search for the wiring fault proceeds. One model will not start if the joystick is wiggled prior to engine start; if it is, then some sort of hard reset of the computers has to be done first.

It seems that just trying to figure out normal battery draw when our 3 is shut down is going to be a normal concern for all machinery.

~Rich~
1st July 2012, 05:35 PM
I had similar issues:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/129316-leaking-voltage-5.html#post1524658

I'd recommend to make sure the latest software has been uploaded to the control modules, mine turned out to be the Amp and Info screen where both staying on too long.

Gords
1st July 2012, 08:37 PM
Thanks again guys,

Thanks Rich- interesting reading, I do have the latest software and as its a 08 there shouldnt be any new additions.

Can someone advise what voltages should be sufficient to start a D3 and also, what's the best way to test the starter motor? Just picking up on Bbyers point re needing a new starter motor. Possibly older starter motors need more voltage? Or not?

Cheers!

drivesafe
1st July 2012, 11:42 PM
Hi Gords, if your starting battery is in good nick but just in a low state of charge, you should be able to start from a battery with as low as 11.6v or 20% SoC.

bbyer
2nd July 2012, 12:49 AM
Possibly older starter motors need more voltage? Or not? Cheers! After near a year of fooling around trying to figure out the starting problem and eventually determining the solution was something simple, a new starter motor, I came to the conclusion that the problem was probably not actually the motor, but the attached solenoid. That is sort of academic of course, as it is more work to replace the solenoid than it is to replace the assembly.

My reason for now thinking the solenoid was the real problem is that if I kept the 3 on a charger, (CTEK US3300), overnight, then I was pretty much guaranteed a start up in the morning on first try. In other words at a fully charged battery state of about 13 volts, the starter seemed to operate at first start, (no clicking sound), but when the battery was nearer to 12 volts, then probably I would get the clicking noise and then after a few tries, a start.

My guess now is that the solenoid contacts were getting weak and the extra volt overcame the weakening contacts. If my theory is true, then maybe that is the test for a starter motor solenoid going bad - turns over well at 13 volts, not so good at less.

That is also why I thought I probably had a grounding problem but could never find where the "ground" problem was as the battery and alternator systems seemed to be fine - which they were.

rufusking
2nd July 2012, 08:06 AM
One possible cause can be poor connection along the high current cables. I'd undo, clean and refit each connection (battery, solenoid, starter and earths-chassis, block). You would be amazed how much voltage drop ther can be across a poor connection on a high current circuit. Visual inspection isn't enough you need to undo, clean and redo each one.

Gords
10th July 2012, 09:31 AM
Thanks All,

I have got it in the shop with the guys ar Mr Automotive, they have picked up that the aircon ECU or HeVAC module is faulty and as a result drawing power and either;
- needs to be replaced (circa $1,100).
- have a manual switch installed to cut the power from this (circa $50).

Has anyone else had problems with the module itself? Is there anything else anyone recommends trying??? Anyone else heard of this before?

Would greatly appreciate any thoughts while it is still in the shop thanks!

Graeme
10th July 2012, 10:09 AM
Without having looked at the wiring diagram for the existance of one, is there a relay that might be sticking closed?

Gords
10th July 2012, 10:26 AM
Without having looked at the wiring diagram for the existance of one, is there a relay that might be sticking closed?

Thanks Graeme, Not too sure unfortunately, from what I am told the guys at MR, narrowed it down by disconnecting everything else off the relay and replaced it with another unit and the power drain was no longer there. From that I presume that all the items that could be sticking on were not???

He also mentioned that it isn't something that a fault code reset could fix.

Hrmmm...

Graeme
10th July 2012, 05:37 PM
Perhaps fit a switch for the moment then get a used module from the UK where's there are plenty of vehicles being dismantled.

Gords
10th July 2012, 05:42 PM
Perhaps fit a switch for the moment then get a used module from the UK where's there are plenty of vehicles being dismantled.

Yeah my thoughts we're going that way also.

Thanks heaps! Really appreciate the speedy responses mate!

Graeme
10th July 2012, 08:24 PM
If you were to determine that a particular motor or valve was always drawing power, the cause could be a failed FET/MOSFET and these can often be replaced. Was there any facet of the system that wasn't working properly? eg unable to direct or prevent air through a particular vent.

Gords
20th July 2012, 07:33 PM
Hey guys, just a follow up. I ended up not getting the switch (3 power feeds to the unit so a switch is hard) and ended up getting the same part from another supplier (second hand however still brand new) for $475, swapped it over in about 20 seconds and I can confirm that the power draw is now back to the standard .2 amp so all is well! Thanks to all for their thoughts an suggestions! I have learnt a lot in the process!!!

Cheers,
Rob