BLOWN HEAD GASKET? 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S

[Dreamn]

At the time of the incident I was towing a caravan and overtaking another van that had a string of traffic backed up behind us.

What I initially thought was smoke began to bellow from the rear of our vehicle. With no loss of power to the engine and committed to overtaking I continued the manoeuvre and to my humiliation pulled over as soon as I got ahead. On pulling up it occurred to me that what I thought was smoke from the rear was steam from the bonnet and instantly turned the engine off noting the temperature gauge which was above normal but not indicating overheating.

RACQ towed the vehicle to the local Land Rover service mechanic in Townsville who described the failed plastic component that had split at the seam as “the thermostat but not really a thermostat”.

Late in the afternoon two days later we picked the vehicle up from the service department and drove it without issue a short distance to our accommodation. The next day we began our departure North with the van in tow but travelled no further than 100m and the low water indicator came on. I pulled over and topped it up thinking maybes there had been an air lock or something when the radiator was refilled. The temperature gauge was sitting around normal however there was obvious pressure build up within the fluid filler.

We travelled another few kilometres and the same thing happened (again temperature gauge appeared normal but had pressure build up). Again I topped it up but this time headed off with the intention of finding a safe place to turn around and head back to Land Rover but as I came to the top of the hill about a kilometre down the road the overheating alarm sounded and the vehicle was shut down immediately. Another RACQ trip back to Land Rover.

The Mechanic says its likely that I had blown the head gasket in the initial incident even though he claims to have pressure tested it for a considerable time after the initial repair. To be honest I suspect he is correct however I don’t have any confidence in this guy (too long a story that sidetracks). I have spoken with another Land Rover specialist that doesn’t disagree but says he has never heard of a blown head gasket in this motor and suggests that there could possibly be other causes..i.e. electronic fault.

Any thoughts?

[TerryO]

When they overheat there is also a O ring that seals the waterpump into the block that often starts to leak. Don't thnk that would cause your issue but it might be something that also needs to be replaced when the other works is being done.

By the way I to have never read of a TDV6 blowing a head gasket either, heard of some other very nasty things like big ends failing destroying the crank and block but not a head gasket. I'd interested to hear how an electrical problem can cause massive over heating othen than a fire?

If its any consulation they can buy a new TDV6 engine from LR for a lot less than you would think and LR usually have plenty in stock. I had an engine replaced under warranty less than a year ago so have an idea what it cost the non LR dealer to buy it. In fact it worked out cheaper and better value to buy a new one then to keep on trying to fix the old one as more and more problems kept surfacing.

cheers,
Terry

[Dreamn]

Thanks Terry, I’ll be sure to mention the O ring to the mechanic that I have do the work. I wasn’t really game enough to even consider a new motor though. The suggestion that the replacement of the head gaskets estimated 25 hours @ $150 an hour by the LR service mechanic was enough to scare the daylights out of me . :Thump:

We have only just begun a tour of Aus and this will chew considerably into our mechanical emergencies budget already .

[Graeme]

Not particularly in reference to a TDV6 head but a cracked head might test OK when cold and still leak compression when hot.

[Dreamn]

I'm guessing the same would possibly apply to a blown head gasket? (read cracked head sounds more expensive). Although I’m guessing a hairline fracture is more likely to be undetected until expanded with higher temperatures and pressures from towing? If so..can a cracked head be repaired these days or is replacement the only option?

[Graeme]

I wouldn't be spending any money trying to repair a cracked head on a modern vehicle and if 1 head on the engine is cracked, there's a significant risk of the other also being cracked. Hopefully its something much simpler and cheaper.

[TerryO]

Seriously that kind of labour bill would be about the same as for fitting a new engine. A new fitted crate long engine including labour depending on how much they decide to charge you for the engine should be around $12,500 to $13,500 all up. Especially if they order the engine as a stock item which means they then get a even bigger discount.

if they charge you full RRP then it would be a lot more. Ask for a quote and see what they come up with or shop around get a price elsewhere and then ask them to match it.

Cheers,
Terry

[CaverD3]

EGR valves? The EGR cooler can leak?

[talltales]

Have you any idea of the approx. cost to repair the head gaskets. I seem to have the same problem a seen by my post "Losing Coolant TDV6 S". My mechanic and i have come to the conclusion after reading your post and not finding any obvious leaks (hot or cold) that I am burning the coolant out my exhaust.
Have you had it fixed yet?

[CaverD3]

Check if you are not loosing the coolant through the egr cooler as it would also be lost through the exhaust as well. Cheaper option to check first before taking the heads off.

[talltales]

Thanks CAVER We will look into that first. If not we are going to put some Chemiweld in to confirm the head/head gasket. After that well maybe a crated engine as suggested above.

[Dreamn]

Thanks Caver. I wasn’t overly impressed with the Land Rover Mechanic that made the blown gasket diagnosis without exploring or suggesting other possibilities such as has been mentioned here so I have taken my car to another mechanic for a second opinion and he agrees with the EGR Coolant possibility.

[Dreamn]

Seriously that kind of labour bill would be about the same as for fitting a new engine. A new fitted crate long engine including labour depending on how much they decide to charge you for the engine should be around $12,500 to $13,500 all up. Especially if they order the engine as a stock item which means they then get a even bigger discount.

if they charge you full RRP then it would be a lot more. Ask for a quote and see what they come up with or shop around get a price elsewhere and then ask them to match it.

Cheers,
Terry

Terry, do you have any contacts for the crate long engine you suggested? Land Rover here gave me a minimum price of $10, 500 to replace head gaskets and around the same for a short motor unfitted. They claim Land Rover Australia no longer does a long motor but haven’t ruled out other sources.

[TerryO]

First off they are quoting you retail prices for the short engine.

My new long engine was bought through a normal workshop who also did work on LR's as well as other brands. I'd ring around a couple of differnet LR workshops to see if what they are saying is correct. Sounds kinda strange to me that they would stop selling long engines.

When the workshop I went to ordered one for me LR supposedly had 6 in stock so they obviously are selling them if they have none now. Why stop importing something that is selling well?

Also I don't remember hearing that there were any differences between the 2.7 LR use and the one Ford is now using, so it might be an idea to find out what Ford now sell their 2.7's for if you have no luck with LR.

If you like give me a call on 0419448452 if you want to discuss this.

cheers,
Terry

[Dreamn]

Thanks Terry. The other mechanic is looking at it tomorrow for me. I'm really hoping he finds something a little simpler..If not you can expect to here from me :)..I'm also interested in what talltales comes up with.

Cheers
Steve

[Dreamn]

It appears that I'm likely up for a new motor as it will be more cost effective than repairing as pointed out by Terry. Initially my mechanic was told that a new long motor was available but it turns out that what is on offer are only used motors with around 30 - 50 k on them.

However there may be the slightest glimmer of hope for my predicament. Another vehicle has turned up at my mechanics shop with very similar symptoms to mine. It too had the thermostat housing recently replaced by the initial Land Rover dealer that replaced mine. Now it too is bubbling at the reservoir and beginning to overheat (to my understanding it hasn't overheated) and it appears there is an air lock in the cooling system somewhere that hasn't been resolved i.e cooling system is not circulating.

Has anybody come across an air lock in the cooling system? and if so is there a procedure necessary to prevent or fix it?

Cheers
Steve

[CaverD3]

Two after the same work done by the same dealer. I think there may be a pattern. Have you taken it back to the dealer who did the work and asked them to rectify?

[Dreamn]

Two after the same work done by the same dealer. I think there may be a pattern. Have you taken it back to the dealer who did the work and asked them to rectify?

Not as yet..the second vehicle wasn't brought to my attention until late yesterday afternoon and at this stage I have no proof of any faulty workmanship..only suspicions based on previous experience and a small glimmer of hope that I'm not up for another motor.

I currently have the vehicle with another mechanic that I have greater confidence in and would prefer to leave it with him. If the outcome proves that my current problem is a result of faulty workmanship then I will endeavor to take the issue up with them then. The symptoms of the two vehicles may after all only be a coincidence.

Cheers
Steve

[TerryO]

Steve,

Sorry I didn't keep your number, if you give me another call I may know where a complete engine is at the right price that should be able to provide all the major donor parts you need.

cheers,
Terry

[talltales]

Looks like mine is a cracked head or blown head gasket. Put in some Chemi Weld and took it for a 400km run and coolant loss was nil. I think I sourced an engine, new without injectors or turbo but complete with heads and belts brand new for $8100 plus freight. I am waiting on another quote at the moment and will then decide when and how to do the change. My mechanic says it will probably mean removing the body for easier access. Apparently under 20 bolts plus remove front and rear after market bars then unplug and lift up. Will keep you posted.

[400HPONGAS]

Looks like mine is a cracked head or blown head gasket
WTF !!!!!
you mean all the gun mechanics in Queensland cant work out what wrong with it before you just replace it ? More money than Brains .

[talltales]

Thanks for your educated reply. My mother always said better off to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.
I said maybe and we will confirm later. Trust me $8 - 10 thousand dollars is not just thrown around and a thorough investigation will be made before spending that money. We have spent almost a month now testing and checking. To make your sort of statement is a little shallow so I will offer it that same treatment. Thank you and have a nice day.:)

[TerryO]

The real expense often with these cars is all the labour costs involved in fitting/ replacing etc parts and then often you find there is other issues. A new engine with 12 months unlimited mileage warranty seems to me like a much better deal then fixing up an old engine that may or may not be ok.

My new long engine is now coming up for 12 months old and I'm glad I have it rather than the repaired old one that caused the dealer so many issues once they pulled it apart under warranty. Lucky for me my new engine was supplied under warranty.

I remember reading only a few years ago that some poor sods got charged around the 20k plus mark for replacing TDV6's out of warranty, now you can get it done for about 12k if you shop around.

If you do get a new long engine make sure you get all the hoses, belts and pulleys changed at the same time, I didn't and it has cost me heaps to replace them all over the last 12 months as they have failed one by one. If they had been done when the engine was being changed it would have only cost me the parts cost and no labour.

Don't take offence to much from 400HP, he always likes to get to the point in his own way. ...;)

cheers,
Terry

[400HPONGAS]

Sorry,I didnt mean for you to feel foolish . Its your learned help I worry about.
So ,after a doing full (spectral)analysis of the engine oil ,(both filtered and unfiltered )the coolant and exhaust gas ,the engine oil filter and perhaps a pressure test to see if you havent a block/liner crack , liner/bore corrosion/crack your still none the wiser as to where your losing coolant I too have a TDV6 thats done 180,000K ,and a another owner thats done 450,000 ,that never has had these issues, so Im genuinely interested in what the actual root cause is or was .

[TerryO]

The o-ring on the water pump can leak and is near impossible to see when it does, unless it is removed then you can see a stain mark from the leaked coolant.

cheers,
Terry

[ozscott]

I dont think Chemiweld will assist blown head gasket. It reacts to cracks and porosity in metals. Why dont you run it for a while and see how you go. I know first hand of examples where chemiweld has lasted for years and and LOT of klms including under towing conditions...

Cheers

[talltales]

Thanks for the comments fellows and 400HPongas I understand your concerns and I would like to come to the exact source of the liquid loss also.

1. We have pressurised the system for 12 hours with paper on the floor and then used high powered lights from below and above the engine and not one sign of liquid loss (both hot and cold).
2.We have removed the water housing that blew on top of the oil cooler at the top of the V and not a sign of water marks or water in this region.
3. I have installed the Chemiweld and done about 500km so far with less than a cup loss of water.
4. To investigate the liners/bore damage it really will need the heads off and at 3 - 4 thousand dollars just to get there I think I will see how the Chemiweld does and if after a few months the water loss has ceased then I either let it be, sell it or decide to fit the new engine and repair and sell the old to recover some money.

This is all in front of me so I will see how Dreamn goes with his diagnosis and watch with anticipation of a simpler or cheaper solution.

[400HPONGAS]

Talltales , Have you done a full sprectral analysis of thw engine oil. Ring this mob and see how to get a couple of samples done, 1 of the oil amd 1 of the coolant
ALS Tribology | Tribology Laboratory Testing | Virginia Tribology Lab (http://www.alsglobal.com/tribology/laboratories/virginia-tribology-lab.aspx#LearnMore) or
Diesel and Petrol Engine Oils - Oilcheck Pty Ltd (http://www.oilcheck.com.au/technical/diesel-and-petrol-engine-oils.html)

[CaverD3]

Have they checked EGR coolers yet?

"It's not that uncommon that they fail - the usualy fail mode is cracking. Usually cause a loss in coolant and sometimes a bit of white smoke, but also (if leaking internally) ends up knackering the EGR valve that it's connected to.

It happened to one of the chaps here in Spain last week and many more have had the EGR coolers replaced for coolant loss problems before the valves are affected.

It's just stuck on the input (rear end) of the EGR valve and looks like a cylinder with loads of holes lengthways through it and coolant connections."

DISCO4.COM - View topic - EGR COOLER ??? (http://www.disco4.com/forum/topic61307.html?highlight=%5C%22egr+cooler%5C%22)

DISCO4.COM - View topic - Coolant Loss and top up. (http://www.disco4.com/forum/topic42068.html?highlight=%5C%22egr+cooler%5C%22)

DISCO4.COM - View topic - Coolant Loss and top up. (http://www.disco4.com/forum/topic42068.html?highlight=%5C%22egr+cooler%5C%22)

[talltales]

Thanks CaverD3 and 400Hp I will do both suggestions. The mechanic said he had the oil checked but a second opinion is always helpful. My mechanic did look very closley at the EGR coolers and is still not sure it is not them. I was interested to read in the UK forum that the guy had pressure tested still no loss yet after replacing them his coolant loss disappeared. A lot cheaper than a new engine.
Thanks

[CaverD3]

Head gasket failures are unusual for the TDV6.
Cheaper options first. :BigThumb:

[Dreamn]

Just a quick update..My mechanic was unable to identify the fault with my motor without undertaking further expensive surgery. Given the options and likely costs I decided a new motor (short) was the best solution . This transplantation has solved my initial problem but has created another. I wont raise that problem here as I believe that it is off topic to this thread. Thanks all for your valued advice.

Cheers
Steve

Edit: My problem continues here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/156254-fuel-pressure-too-high-too-low-2005-tdv6-discovery-3-s.html#post1734025

[talltales]

Hello Dreamn, CaverD3 and 400HPongas. A final update on my Issues. We isolated the issue to the EGR coolers by blocking off the water flow to them for a week and did 500km in that week with no water loss and the engine ran like a dream. New coolers $370 each plus fitting. The turbo is leaking oil through the intercooler also. Well I said that was it because we have decided to sell and change brands to a Mitsubishi Challenger. The Landy has been fantastic but just getting too costly to run with 195000km in 6yrs. The Challenger is cheaper to run will tow 3000kg (our camper 1800kg) and there is just my wife and I now so no need for such a big car. My wife is distraught because she really loves the Disco 3. Any way the decision is made and the new car ordered. Any body want a slightly used Disco 3 for $25,000.

Thanks for the advice on the forum. The Challenger forum under the Victorian Pajero club has been just as helpful as this forum with hits on modifications and model information.

[CaverD3]

Hi tall tails,
That isn't that many ks.
So it was the EGR cooler.
You would be better blanking the GRs and removing the coolers.
Who diagnosed the turbo oil issue? The same mechanic who said it was a cracked head?
Oil through the intercooler is normal for a certain amount, mine had a lot of oil in it when I cleaned it out.
EGRs cause a lot of exhaust particles to pass through to the intercooler too.
It is the quality of service which counts if the dealer or indy know what to look for they can find it rather than replacing bits till it is fixed.

Good luck with the Challenger, :D looked at one but couldn't bring myself to put up with the agricultural ride and engine. :angel: