4.6 litre noisy tappets

[MoodyBlue]

I recently rebuilt my 4.6 litre motor from my 96 HSE.

Top end stuff included skimming the heads, new valves, new rockers and shafts, new lifters, new cam, new timing cover and oil pump.

When it warms up the left bank has a couple of tappets clicking and I don't know what I've done wrong?

Any experienced Guru's know where I can look to to solve it?

Thanks
jeff
moodyblue933@hotmail.com

[PhilipA]

Join the club! LOL

The most common reason for noisy tappets in a new rebuild is that the lifter preload is insufficient, caused by many possibilities including the tappets not being to spec, the cam not to spec, the lifters not to spec.
They all have to be correct.
The only real way to check is to pull off the valley cover and measure the preload on each lifter at the heel of the cam. You can do this by making a gauge from an old hanger , bending about 4MM of the end to 90 degrees, then filing it to 20 thou at one end and 50 thou at the other. The gauge fits between the plunger that the pushrod fits in and the spring circlip and should be between 20 and 50 thou.
If it is less, like nil then the tappets/lifters will be noisy and the only way to remedy is to take a little off the rocker pedestals.
You may be able to shift the lifters around if the clearances are all over the place but this should only be done if the engine has done very few ks.
Regards Philip A

[Rupert Prior]

i agree, the preload should be checked. also, are the lifters the correct type, some push rods have a large burr where the ball end has been formed (it is better for this end should go to the lifter), some rockers look genuine but are chinese fakes (the steel pad and cup are lose from new).

[benji]

Jeff, did you go through Bendigo yesterday? I saw one like your's go up Mc Ivor road.

So many people i've spoken to (including a few mechanics in Bendigo) say to use holden lifters, but they've apparently different bleed characteristics.

[MacMan]

I would also look at lifter preload. I spent ages checking mine in my recent rebuild and needed substantial shimming on both sides to get ALL preloads within spec. PhilipA explained it well. Critically, you're looking to ensure you have a minimum of 0.020" so that the follower remains in contact with the cam at all times and stops the valve gear clattering in and out of contact. I did a quick google images search - this is where you need to measure:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/07/1345.jpg

While you're checking that, verify that all the finished heights of the valve stems are as close as possible. With the rocker gear off you can run a straight edge ruler across the valve tops. The peanuts who did my heads finished one side beautifully and the other side not so well, so the LH bank has more variation in the preloads.

I used Delphi lifters and when I found my variation on the 1-3-5-7 bank I did a number of different measurements with the lifters swapped around to see if I could find a favourable arrangement, but as best as I could tell the lifters all measured up the same regardless of position.

[MoodyBlue]

I did check the preload, by the book with a welding wire gauge. I don't believe the shims under the pedestals is a good idea.

Now ONLY the left bank clicks which is really annoying.

This week end I fitted a set of adjustable pushrods and increased the preload but still have the same level of click.

Next plan is to fit a set of solid lifters and use the adjustable pushrods to get close clearances like the old days pre hydraulics.

Thanks for the quick replies.

Jeff

PS, No I played with the pushrods on Saturday, and today was too cold to bother going out.

[PhilipA]

Then you have crook lifters that are leaking down.

Regards Philip A

[Rupert Prior]

i'm not certain but, i think that with solid lifters you are supposed to use a different camshaft, as the profile of a standard cam includes lift lost within the valving of the hydraulic lifter.

[MacMan]

Correct, and perhaps more importantly Rupert a solid lifter cam must be more progressive in lift.

[RR P38]

Pretty sure with solid lifters you will need fully adjustable pushrods or rocker arms.
Anti pump up lifters account for the wear that you normally get over the life of the engine.
So with solid lifters you will need to adjust as things wear.
In my experience solid lifter cams are noisy.

I would be looking to see what sort of oil flow you are getting up top.
Pull a rocker cover off and run the engine.
Just make sure you get some cover over the headers for any oil drips.
You might have a blocked oil gallery on one of the posts.

[Keithy P38]

Could it possibly be an air lock from assembly? I used to sit mine in a bucket of oil overnight, then pump them while in the oil using an old pushrod quite a few times to ensure they don't ever have a chance to run dry.

[MoodyBlue]

Part of the recent changes were a new timing cover complete with new oil pump etc etc ($700)

Running the motor with the rocker cover off shows oil coming from all of the right places in good quantity.

All of the pushrods are rotating like they are supposed to.

I have fitted an oil pressure sender (electronic) but not hooked up the gauge yet.

A side issue is I replaced the eight lifters on the left side with brand new UK made items, to no avail, (motor has done less than 100k's so I don't think the old lifters would have bedded in yet).

Oil is 10-40 so might try a little thicker but don't really think that is the answer.

Next step is try the Holden lifters and see how it goes.

Motor is whisper quiet untill the oil gets warm.

[RR P38]

I wouldnt be using 10W 40.
20W 50 is the go.

I recal trying 10w 40 and it was noisier for sure. I do have a well worn engine though. I have since replaced a few push rods and rocker arms and lapped the remaining rocker arms in.

I pulled a lifter out without taking the valley off, just for a look see and my lifters are shot.
Pretty soon i will be doing a VRS job as you have done.

[MacMan]

I hate to even suggest this, but if it only starts once warm could it be sleeve noise?

Are you certain your exhaust manifolds are properly sealed?

[benji]

Sorry if i've confused anyone, what I've been told is that holden lifters create a lot of noise after they bleed up, because of different bleed characteristics. They do fit, and they 'work', but they're not the correct ones.

Daniel at Romsey LR told me that a few years ago.

[Sydr]

I hate to even suggest this, but if it only starts once warm could it be sleeve noise?

Are you certain your exhaust manifolds are properly sealed?

I would certainly check this suggestion out; a characteristic of a loose sleeve is that it starts to be heard once the engine is warm, and it sounds exactly like a tappet. Don't ask how I know.

[MoodyBlue]

Anyone know where / who can do the Top Hat liners in Australia please?

Thanks

Jeff
or send me an e-mail to moodyblue933@hotmail.com

[bee utey]

Triumph Rover Spares in Adelaide do them, although I suspect there would be quite a few good machine shops that could do it in Victoria.

[MacMan]

Give Duggan Balancing a call. They're in Reservoir.

Duggan Balancing (http://www.dugganbalancing.com.au/)

They did the balancing work on my crank after the "other mob" left me wondering. I was right to wonder. Good guys with a busy workshop which to me is a good sign.

[Range01]

Hi Jeff, I have just experienced the same issue after a rebuild including new lifters rockers and shaft. Did you sort out the problem (I know it is an old topic). John

[Hoges]

FWIW : Couple of things to bear in mind:
If you had the heads skimmed, the max amount to be removed is supposedly 20 thou or 0.5mm.
Second: did you happen to run a straight edge across the top of the valve stems before re-installing the heads, and if so was there much variation...they should be essentially uniform..

Third: did you refit the valve gear (lifters, push rods and rockers) as a "dry run" before "bleeding" the lifters, and measure the preload on the lifters? This is critical. /otherwise you may need to insert a uniform thickness of shims under each rocker post to get the preload within spec

When you started the engine for the first time did you run it for 20 mins or so at 1500-2000 rpm to run-in the cam lobes with the lifters?

All of these issues can impact the subsequent noise level of the valve gear...

I also used the Penrite "Running in" oil (20W50) for a thousand km ...it has a higher zinc phosphate concentration to assist with bedding in the cam lobes.

[garybrook]

beyond that;

-when the engine was up and running, what oil pressure did you get, especially when it was warm/hot (50 or only 20-30psi)?

- there are different oil pumps, like your new one you bought. I don't know which one you have/need. Is it the correct one, and if it is, I understand that there are also different gaskets between the pump & the block, one with a hole and one that doesn't for obvious reasons, which is relevant.

- now that the engine has been running for a while, have you had noticed that the head was 'flooding' with oil. It could be that the new rocker arms could be allowing too much oil out of the crank, b/e, cam gallery starving the lifters/pressure system. This has been discussed in a South African LR business/forum - ask if you need the reference.

Good luck,

Gary.

[Hoges]

Just remembered as a result of Gary's post, it is also possible to replace the rockers wrongly on the shaft ...such that they are starved of oil... did you take note of this when reassembling ? (The identification groove has to be at the one o’clock position with the push rod end of rocker arm to the right....)

[Range01]

Thanks - I haven't had a chance to review the however I still have the ticking. Changed the oil to 20w 50 it take longer before it starts to tick. I didn't check the pre load when I put it back together. I had the block machined with stepped sleeves also the head skimmed, so is it that I now have to much preload and need shims under the posts. I have a chat with the machine shop and work out what thickness I will need. Thanks.

[Hoges]

Thanks - I haven't had a chance to review the however I still have the ticking. Changed the oil to 20w 50 it take longer before it starts to tick. I didn't check the pre load when I put it back together. I had the block machined with stepped sleeves also the head skimmed, so is it that I now have to much preload and need shims under the posts. I have a chat with the machine shop and work out what thickness I will need. Thanks.

There's a range for preload...you work out the max and min preload on the existing lifters on each bank and then you add the SAME thickness under each rocker post for that bank only. Then attend to the other bank.

FWIW: there's a technique for whether preload meets go/no go specs using different thicknesses of wire. I frankly couldn't get sufficient confidence to do it this way, so I measured up a spare lifter (thickness of retaining ring etc and then measured each lifter preload using the "step" function on an electronic vernier taking account of the retaining ring etc. There was spread within the accepted range.

EDIT: unless it is a really bad clatter I would not worry too much, better they have ample preload than not enough. But it's worth checking if you are concerned. I've heard a Euro machine which sounds like a tumble dryer full of spoons... the mechanical clatter from the valve gear of a "pristine" late 90s Porsche owned by a neighbour is very obvious!

[Range01]

Only when it gets hot.

[Hayden M]

Join the club! LOL

The most common reason for noisy tappets in a new rebuild is that the lifter preload is insufficient, caused by many possibilities including the tappets not being to spec, the cam not to spec, the lifters not to spec.
They all have to be correct.
The only real way to check is to pull off the valley cover and measure the preload on each lifter at the heel of the cam. You can do this by making a gauge from an old hanger , bending about 4MM of the end to 90 degrees, then filing it to 20 thou at one end and 50 thou at the other. The gauge fits between the plunger that the pushrod fits in and the spring circlip and should be between 20 and 50 thou.
If it is less, like nil then the tappets/lifters will be noisy and the only way to remedy is to take a little off the rocker pedestals.
You may be able to shift the lifters around if the clearances are all over the place but this should only be done if the engine has done very few ks.
Regards Philip A



Sent from my GT-I9210T using AULRO mobile app

[Pedro_The_Swift]

isnt this where we came in?:p:p

[RR P38]

HPR 20w 60 will shut it up.

[softdash]

Make sure you are dealing with a lifter noise and not a rocker noise first. I remember when i was at Land Rover in the late 1990's there was a service action bulletin released warning of loose rocker caps where the push rod sits in the rocker.
There was a certain batch number stamped on the side of the rocker, but i cant remember what the batch numbers were... maybe someone else on here might have the details