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Slunnie
13th July 2012, 01:22 AM
My eyes have gone square googling and reading info on identifying series gearboxs. This info comes from quite a few sources.

Please tell me if there is an error.

There are 3 types of gearbox: Series I & II, Series II and Series III.

Series I & II
· Serial Number with no suffix.

Series IIa
· Serial number on the RHS of the gearbox with a suffix underneath the serial number.
· Non synchro 1st & 2nd gears, synchro on 3rd & 4th gears.
· Very late (from early 1971) gearbox had synchro on all gears - gearboxs stamped with an "S" prefix. "S" may also be stamped on a top cover.
· Clutch slave on RHS and vertical on a Series IIa Bellhousing. (Suffix B+ may also fit Series III Bellhousings)
· Suffix B+ are renowned for being the strongest and/or most durable of the series gearboxs.
· Suffix: A/B -- C+
1st - 2.996 - 3.6
2nd - 2.043 - 2.22
3rd - 1.377 - 1.5
4th - 1.000 - 1.00
Rev - 2.547 - 3.02
High – 1.15 – 1.15
Low – 2.89 – 2.35


Series III
· Serial number with a following suffix on the top RHS flange of the transfer case.
· Synchro on all 4 gears.
· Clutch slave on LHS and horizontal on a Series III Bellhousing.
· Particularly the Suffix A & B require slow shifting to preserve the gearbox and have reduced strength and durability compared to the Series IIa gearboxs.
· 1st - 3.68
2nd - 2.22
3rd - 1.5
4th - 1.00
Rev – 3.02 or 4.02
High – 1.15
Low – 2.35


To tell the Series III box from the Series IIA without even having to drive it. Select all 5 gears (including reverse) noting the travel of the lever. If the lever moves about the same amount in all gears except 2nd, which is a lot less, it’s a Series IIA box. If the lever moves a long way in reverse, 3rd & top and not much in 1st & 2nd it’s a Series III box. It’s easy to check when driving. Drive at about 40-45 in 3rd, dip the clutch and go for 2nd. If it goes in silently it is a Series III, if it makes a horrible noise (and possibly won't go in) it’s a Series IIA. Alternatively, run the engine at a fast idle in neutral with the clutch engaged. Then dip the clutch and try engaging 1st gear. If it grates it’s a Series IIA. If it goes in silently after a moment’s resistance, it’s a Series III.

4cyl
Bellhousing - 1 top bolt at 12 oclock
2 bends in the gear stick

6cyl
Bellhousing - 2 top bolts at 11 and 1 oclock.
1 bend in the gear stick

For those with gearboxs with NO serial numbers, I would guess that a Series III gearbox has been mated with a Series IIa transfer box.

For those with gearboxs with TWO serial numbers, I would guess that a Series II or IIa gearbox has been mated with a Series III transfer box.



I'd be interested in any other input into the differences between these gearboxs.

Lotz-A-Landies
13th July 2012, 03:38 AM
Hi Simon

The SIIa suffix D is actually the stronger boxes because of the change in the layshaft, where the circlip, retaining 2nd gear was removed and replaced with a shouldered layshaft.

The suffix B and later transfer boxes are more reliable than the Suffix a and SI/SII boxes because of the larger intermediate shaft diameter. The best low ratio crawler ratios are obtained by using a suffix c+ gearbox with a suffix B transfer ratio.

Also on the late SIII boxes the casing were reinforced with extra alloy (lattice shape) over the reverse idler shaft. The early SIII boxes were renown to crack in this location.

Can be seen on image below between red and green arrows.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

JDNSW
13th July 2012, 05:51 AM
Series 2 and 2a (except the very late all synchro box) have the clutch slave cylinder on the RHS of the bell housing, not LHS (in this country anyway - I haven't looked up to see where LHD ones have it).

All boxes have the same critical dimensions and are a direct replacement except for the bell housing being different between the six and the four cylinder boxes. But note that the clutch release sleeve is positioned differently, so that the pressure plate is different between the Series 1/2/2a and Series 3.

John

pop058
13th July 2012, 06:53 AM
My 4/71 2A Workshop does not have syncro on 1st & 2nd. I am yet to confirm the box number.

Slunnie
13th July 2012, 09:12 AM
Hi Simon

The SIIa suffix D is actually the stronger boxes because of the change in the layshaft, where the circlip, retaining 2nd gear was removed and replaced with a shouldered layshaft.

The suffix B and later transfer boxes are more reliable than the Suffix a and SI/SII boxes because of the larger intermediate shaft diameter. The best low ratio crawler ratios are obtained by using a suffix c+ gearbox with a suffix B transfer ratio.

Also on the late SIII boxes the casing were reinforced with extra alloy (lattice shape) over the reverse idler shaft. The early SIII boxes were renown to crack in this location.

Can be seen on image below between red and green arrows.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/series-iii/48879d1341890500-s3-gearbox-number-location-siii-gearbox-number.jpg

Thanks Diana! The increased webbing on the Series III gearbox is that shown between the 2 arrows???? Was this from Series III Suffix B onwards?

Also, I note that the green arrow is where I found the Series IIa serial number and the red arrow is where I found the Series III serial number.


Series 2 and 2a (except the very late all synchro box) have the clutch slave cylinder on the RHS of the bell housing, not LHS (in this country anyway - I haven't looked up to see where LHD ones have it).

All boxes have the same critical dimensions and are a direct replacement except for the bell housing being different between the six and the four cylinder boxes. But note that the clutch release sleeve is positioned differently, so that the pressure plate is different between the Series 1/2/2a and Series 3.

John

Thanks for this John, great info! Absolutely correct and surprised I didn't pick this up re the Slave sides when looking at the gearboxs last night. I've just altered the first post to correct this.

Lotz-A-Landies
13th July 2012, 09:31 AM
Hi Simon
The two arrows were indeed done to point out the number locations in a recent thread. The lattice wasn't present on suffix A SIII but was there by the time of the army contracts ?Suffix D SIII, but to find the actual change you'd have to find the service bulletin.

Hi John
Only in SI mechanical clutch linkages were different for LHD and RHD, in SII/SIIa with hydraulic system. the crossover was achieved by pipework. AFAIK this remained the same with SIII.

Diana

JDNSW
13th July 2012, 09:51 AM
Thanks Diana! The increased webbing on the Series III gearbox is that shown between the 2 arrows???? Was this from Series III Suffix B onwards?

Also, I note that the green arrow is where I found the Series IIa serial number and the red arrow is where I found the Series III serial number.



Thanks for this John, great info! Absolutely correct and surprised I didn't pick this up re the Slave sides when looking at the gearboxs last night. I've just altered the first post to correct this.

To further correct, or perhaps add to my post, the Series 1 (and 2l S2) petrol engines use the same bell housing as the six (Although I have an idea one stud is different), S1 and S2 diesel 2l are same as the 2.25 petrol and diesel fours.

John

gromit
13th July 2012, 10:15 AM
Thanks guys,

This thread is helping me identify the gearboxes I have acquired and would be useful as a 'sticky' because there are lots of posts asking similar questions on Series boxes.

I found this on LandyZone
"Series 2A 1965-'72
Transmission Bearings & Seals; (Not inc transfer case)

Constant mesh pinon X1 RLS12/C3
Gearbox front seal (suffix H on) X1 35x50x10SLR
Primary pinion & Mainshaft Seal (sufix H on) X2 35x50x10SLR
Mainshaft Front X1 RA156 (NDH)
Mainshaft Rear X1 6307/C3
Mainshaft Rear Seal X1 193-300-50SLR
Layshaft Front (Suffix A) X1 RMS6/C2
Layshaft Front (Suffix B ) X1 6305/C3
Output Shaft Seal (F&R to '78) X2 162-250-50SSL
Output Shaft Seal (F&R '78 on) X2 162-250-50DLR
Speedo Pinion Seal X1 062-100-18SLR"

Short history here :-
Land Rover gearbox history (http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/gearboxes.htm)

Gearbox suffix numbers here :-
Land Rover FAQ - Repair & Maintenance - Series - Chassis Numbers - Suffixes (http://www.lrfaq.org/Series/FAQ.S.Chassis_Numbers.suffix.IIA.html)



Colin

series3
13th July 2012, 04:20 PM
My 11/71 swb 2a has only 3rd and 4th synchro'd. (255 059 36F). I can only presume it's originality.

Sam

Lotz-A-Landies
13th July 2012, 05:04 PM
To further correct, or perhaps add to my post, the Series 1 (and 2l S2) petrol engines use the same bell housing as the six (Although I have an idea one stud is different), S1 and S2 diesel 2l are same as the 2.25 petrol and diesel fours.

JohnTo clarify John's post, the bolt pattern on the bellhousing to the flywheel housing/adapter on the 6 cyl Land Rover are essentially the same as S1 from 1954 model onwards. However the bellhousing on the gearbox on the S1 and SII 2 litre petrol have the small layshaft front bearing and matching clutch throwout housing, while the 6 cyl has the large bearing amd matching throwout.

BTW. as mentioned by Sam, I have never seen a genuine SIIa all synchromesh box and this accords with my Jan 1972 First Edition SIIa Parts Catalogue P/N 60824 which discusses the sealed pinion but not an all synchromesh box. Perhaps this was a NAS or UK Home market option that wasn't sold here.

Slunnie
13th July 2012, 07:55 PM
BTW. as mentioned by Sam, I have never seen a genuine SIIa all synchromesh box and this accords with my Jan 1972 First Edition SIIa Parts Catalogue P/N 60824 which discusses the sealed pinion but not an all synchromesh box. Perhaps this was a NAS or UK Home market option that wasn't sold here.

Here is a post that I dredged up from Bob that comments on a bulletin that came after your parts catalogue. Assuming Bonneted Control models are utes, perhaps it is a 109" only part for the very very last of the IIa's. During this thread I'd been looking at a couple of gearboxs that I have in the garage, but it will be interesting to crawl under my IIa 109 ute that was complied 3/72 (last IIa manufactured 9/71)... with a broken gearbox!


Land Rover Service Information Vol 1 No 2 Item 6, April 1972 gives an explanation:
Series III type all syncromesh gearbox adapted for use on Series IIA Bonneted Control models - 4 cyl - Part No. New - 607125, Part No. Rebuilt - 607126; 6 cyl - Part Nos. 607127 and 607128 respectively. There are also sealed clutch withdrawl unit versions listed.

Bob

Slunnie
13th July 2012, 08:02 PM
Short history here :-
Land Rover gearbox history (http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/gearboxes.htm)

Colin
Some really interesting info in there!




The factory built a small number of all syncro series IIA gearboxes just prior to converting the box into the series III gearbox. The all syncro series IIA gearboxes can be identified by a "S" prefix on the stamped number located on the transmission top cover. Since top covers can move about when multiple gearboxes are rebuilt, and a IIA gearbox is most likely to be rebuilt in the earlier documented style, the 'S' stamp on the top cover does not guarantee the gear box under the top cover is still all syncro.

The Series III gearbox has syncro in all gears as well as lower first and reverse gear ratios. The transfer case remained the same as was used on the late IIA. Series IIA gearboxes (D suffix & later) are generally considered to be stronger and longer lasting than early series III gearboxes (The ones imported into North America). Though a lot of this conception may have to do with people's shifting habits. Series III boxes prefer that you hesitate briefly in the neutral position while you shift gears. This puts less stress on the syncros and enhances their service life. Suffix letters on the Series III gearboxes restarted with suffix A.

There were changes made to the SIII gearbox during its 14 years of manufacture, mostly to make them less prone to wear and to keep them from jumping out of gear. The suffix D and later Series III gearboxes (manufactured after Land Rover left the US) are considered to be the most robust of the Series Land Rover gearboxes. The principal changes were to the reverse idler gear, bearing and shaft and the syncro units.

In general the Series gearbox is considered to be strong enough for about 120 HP, 160lbft is about the limit on torque. Early gearboxes are considered to be weaker than later IIA gearboxes. Early gearboxes tend to beak lay shafts and main shafts at the circlip groove positions. Late 2A lay shafts without the circlip groove are stronger than the early ones. According to Bob Shannon "Here is the fix for the earlier gearboxes. The lay shaft from suffix D onwards gearboxes (part # 556040) has a stepped shoulder that fits into the rear of the D-onwards series lay shaft 2nd gear. So you don't have to buy a matching set of gears (D-onwards is part # 600916) you can take an earlier lay shaft gear from the pair (Suffix A-C is part # 245766) and machine out the relieved section to replicate the later gear's greater clearance. Also a suffix D lay shaft is probably cheaper than the suffixes A (part # 09917) and B-C (part #528703). Make sure the main shaft is set up correctly!!! "

Lotz-A-Landies
16th July 2012, 10:26 AM
...Assuming Bonneted Control models are utes, perhaps it is a 109" only part for the very very last of the IIa's. ...!Thanks for the other info re: the synchro SIIa boxes, but as I said. I have never seen one IRL.

Bonneted control is the Land Rover term for normal control Land Rover, meaning all the Land Rovers that weren't forward control (cab over engine).

landrover dave
24th July 2012, 07:55 PM
Suffix C & D 11A boxes have the same 1st and 2nd ratios as S111, they changed when the low range was chasnged from 2.88:1 to 2.32:1.
Suffix C on words also had a larger layshaft front bearing. Suffix C on had 16 teeth 1st mainshaft gear.
The last of the 2.88:1 tranfer cases had the large intermediate shaft, this coupled to the suffix C on boxes gives a 48:1 low 1st!
I think it was from suffx F S111 box that had the bigger reverse idler bearing
The forward control box had extremely low ratios, with 55.6:1, same gearbox was used in 1 ton models. These were also all helical gears too.
I put a S111 bellhousing on a 11A box in my S111.

gromit
2nd August 2012, 08:28 PM
Late SIII reinforced gearbox

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/1757.jpg



Colin

mick88
23rd May 2015, 09:57 PM
The forward control box had extremely low ratios, with 55.6:1, same gearbox was used in 1 ton models. These were also all helical gears too.
I put a S111 bellhousing on a 11A box in my S111.

Dave,
do you mean the one ton/tray back land rovers?



Cheers, Mick.

JDNSW
24th May 2015, 05:49 AM
The forward control box had extremely low ratios, with 55.6:1, same gearbox was used in 1 ton models. These were also all helical gears too.
I put a S111 bellhousing on a 11A box in my S111.
Dave,
do you mean the one ton/tray back land rovers?

Cheers, Mick.

The all helical transfer case, with both high and low range constant mesh was used on forward control models (certainly the 2B FC, not sure about the 2A FC) and in the One Ton.

As has been noted elsewhere, One Ton Series Landrovers are probably nonexistent in Australia, and there have never been more than single digit numbers. There are still a few 2A and 2B FCs about, but the numbers are now very small. (There are a lot more of the unrelated 101s)

John

mick88
26th May 2015, 09:24 AM
John,
I probably have the wrong picture in my head.
When referring to a "one ton" Land Rover does Dave mean the cab chassis vehicles or is there another?




Cheers, Mick.

JDNSW
26th May 2015, 01:04 PM
John,
I probably have the wrong picture in my head.
When referring to a "one ton" Land Rover does Dave mean the cab chassis vehicles or is there another?




Cheers, Mick.

As far as I know, the One Ton Landrover was availablke either as the standard ute or cab/chassis. Of course, since the bodywork is standard Landrover, anything could be supplied to special order. But as pointed out above, they are virtually unknown in Australia.

John

Lotz-A-Landies
26th May 2015, 02:12 PM
John,
I probably have the wrong picture in my head.
When referring to a "one ton" Land Rover does Dave mean the cab chassis vehicles or is there another?

Cheers, Mick.
As far as I know, the One Ton Landrover was availablke either as the standard ute or cab/chassis. Of course, since the bodywork is standard Landrover, anything could be supplied to special order. But as pointed out above, they are virtually unknown in Australia.

JohnHi Mick

There was a 1 Ton model introduced in late Series IIa around 1967, basically it was a 109 WB with the same chassis as an Australian military IIa but with a standard civvy rear cross member.

They were fitted with heavier springs, 9.00 16 tyres on 6.5" rims and 4.7:1 ENV diffs front and rear but the standard Series track. The gearbox was a standard SIIa Suffix "D" or "E" with a longer mainshaft. The transfer box used the standard case but the mainshaft gear mated to the middle gear on a 3 gear intermediate shaft cluster. All gears in the FC/1 Ton transfer were helical.

You could order them in cab chassis, hard top or ute with truck cab or soft top. Very few if any came to Oz.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/05/213.jpg

The I Ton model was continued into SIII they were 6cyl or 2 1/4 diesel and used a chassis exactly the same as the Australian military SIII. Once again the gearbox was the SIII internals with a long mainshaft and the same all helical transfer as the SIIa 1 Ton. They originally had 4.7:1 Salisbury front and rear diffs with the swivels welded onto the end of the housing. As SIII 1 Ton production continued the front diff reverted to the standard Rover unit.

One of the SIII 1 Ton prototypes made its way to Oz in about 1974 with a couple of Poms who worked at the Solihull factory, it remained in Australia and they took home a Leyland P76 (this may have been partially used in the development of the Rover SD1).

Brian Hejlm remembers a 1 Ton being sold through Leyland Truck and Bus in Brisbane, although you could order the SIII 109 with the 1 Ton chassis but the gearbox was the standard ratio box and they had a regular 109 chassis number. Cookey has one in his collection.

Homestar
3rd June 2018, 07:24 PM
I there a difference between the gearboxes fitted to the 4 and 6 cylinders? If so, any idea what they are?

Thanks in advance.

Slunnie
3rd June 2018, 07:40 PM
Belhousing bolt pattern - Off the top of my head I think 4cyl is 12 o'clock and 6cyl is 11/1oclock.

Gearstick - 4cyl is bent, 6cyl is straighter.

As far as I know the other changes were S2a/S3 standard changes.

Homestar
3rd June 2018, 07:45 PM
Thanks. Are the bellhousings interchangeable? Also where are the identifying numbers on them to check what suffix and model they are?

Cheers.

JDNSW
3rd June 2018, 07:50 PM
Gear lever has different bends. and bell housing is different. That's it. Ratios varied over time, but not according to the number of cylinders.

Series 3 boxes are all synchro, and Series 1/2/2a only have synchro on 3/4, and the bell housing arrangement for the clutch release is different as well.

But apart from these differences, boxes are pretty much interchangeable. There were detail changes throughout the life of the box (biggest one being the all synchromesh), mostly improvements, and the consensus is that the strongest box is late Series 2a, with late Series 3 not far behind.

But apart from the bell housing differences (bolt pattern and clutch release arrangement) the boxes are all a bolt in swap.

Slunnie
3rd June 2018, 07:51 PM
I havent tried to change the bellhousings, Lotzalandies or JDNSW may know. Re the numbers, check out this thread, there is some text and pics, there may be any combination of boxs/transfers.
Series Gearbox ID (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-land-rovers/154562-series-gearbox-id.html)

JDNSW
3rd June 2018, 07:59 PM
I'm pretty certain bell housings can be swapped for 4 & 6 (but not S2/3), with the proviso that the layshaft diameter changed somewhere along the line, and they have to match.

Homestar
3rd June 2018, 08:07 PM
Thanks - didn't see that thread in the stickies, but I did run a search. That has most of the info I need at the moment. I have some options around the box for my project - the original is a suffix A - just found that, so will see what the other boxes I have access to are. 😊

Will ask the mods to see if I can get this thread merged with the gearbox ID thread to keep all the info in 1 spot. 👍

Homestar
4th June 2018, 11:37 AM
Ok, looked at some other boxes I may have options on. One is supposed to have been rebuilt at some point and due to there being no numbers on the box or TC this looks like it could be true. Guessing a later TC has been attached to an early box.

So, still have some questions - which is better/stronger - an early box with no numbers or a suffix A series 3 box. I’m guessing the earlier box will have no synchro in 1st and 2nd whereas mine will, but what else should I be looking at? Current box is unknown although all gears did work, versus a potentially rebuilt (yet to be determined) earlier box? Will now going behind a 2.6 6 cylinder which will be fully rebuilt, and packing a few extra horses, although nothing big - hopefully around 100HP.

Lionelgee
6th February 2020, 03:58 PM
Hello All,

Just wondering if there were anything different that marks out a Suffix "E" box reputation wise?

I found an old thread by Lotz-a-Landies who wrote ...

The SIIa suffix D is actually the stronger boxes because of the change in the layshaft, where the circlip, retaining 2nd gear was removed and replaced with a shouldered layshaft.

The suffix B and later transfer boxes are more reliable than the Suffix a and SI/SII boxes because of the larger intermediate shaft diameter. The best low ratio crawler ratios are obtained by using a suffix c+ gearbox with a suffix B transfer ratio. Accessed 6th of February 2020 from, Series Gearbox ID (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-land-rovers/154562-series-gearbox-id-post1718376.html#post1718376)

Are the suffix "E" any better worse or totally indifferent gearboxes when compared to a stronger "D" suffixed box?

Kind regards
Lionel

JDNSW
6th February 2020, 04:34 PM
I don't know the answer to that!