TeamFA's Gearbox Repair '02 Defender R380

[TeamFA]

G'day all!

I'm part way through my Defender's gearbox repair. I've had a few threads put up asking questions, etc, and thought I would start a thread that I could use to keep a running documentary/question list.

I suppose to start off, we had a 5th/4th gear just before new year, documented here:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/141319-help-needed-sudden-difficulty-getting-5th-gear-2002-td5-defender.html

That seemed to resolve itself over time, and the gearbox seemed fine.

Then in June, while cruising along the road quite calmly, I lost fifth gear. We continued the couple of extra kilometres to get to our camp site, where I also found that reverse gear had gone.

I ended up driving her home the next day less those gears, and after research on this forum guessed that the layshaft had sheared, so looking into the gearbox was in order.

I had a small issue trying to separate the gearbox from the transfer case:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/154158-separating-gearbox-transfer-case-td5-defender-r380.html
... but that resolved itself pretty quickly.

After perusing the gearbox rebuild manual at length, I decided to purchase a $200 hydraulic gear puller set. This was the best bit of kit I've purchased in a long time, enabling me to get all the bits off the shafts that I needed to, with a minimum of effort. The output shaft oil seal collar was stupidly tight, but using a combination of the gear puller set bits and a mate's 20 tonne hydraulic press, we got that off successfully.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/154437-02-defender-110-parts-number-confirmation-needed.html

This was the kit I bought - I would recommend it to anybody who does this. There may be better/cheaper ones out there, but this made the job extremely easy:
TradeTools - 66622-FORCE HYDRAULIC GEAR PULLER SET (http://www.tradetools.com/products/66622)

Tonight I'll be sitting down with Microcat and making my list of parts to send off to Dave at Ashcroft's.

After I pulled the oil pump out this afternoon, I realised that the layshaft being broken meant that there was no oil pump running for the 300kms return drive we did. It was a cool day, and we drove sedately in fourth. There doesn't seem to be any damage in the box other than that caused by the layshaft failure, but should I check anything in particular? Gears 1 to 4 were working fine upon returning home, with no abnormal noises. I'll be replacing the bearing as a matter of course.

Thanks to all who have helped me so far with my first gearbox repair - this forum is an invaluable source of information and advice - keep it coming!

Cheers!
Michael and Anneleis

[Davo]

I've had that hydraulic set for a few years now, and yes, it was a godsend when I did a gearbox. And a hydraulic press as well. I used to use brass drifts and a hammer - erk.

I can't think of anything wrong that wouldn't show up as damaged surfaces, or discolouration. Generally, it seems with gearboxes that as long as a part looks pretty close to new, it's okay. Keep in mind that the bearings may have had bits of metal through them, though.

[TeamFA]

These are the parts I reckon I'll need, to source from Ashcroft's:


FTC4978 – Gear 5th Speed Countershaft Manual Transmission, 37 teeth
TUO100100 – Layshaft
EJP7738L - Nut - Man Trans Countershaft
R380 Bearing Kit, 7 bearings
R380 Oil Seals
R380 Mainshaft Collar

I'll do the clutch while I'm at it. Dave says getting a clutch from him will up the freight costs, but I'm not having any luck finding a local supplier online than can do it cheaper, even with postage.

Just remembered to order a new mainshaft circlip (FTC3697) as well - distorted pretty badly getting it out.

Pete's thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/gclro-members-rides/55867-psimpson7s-d90-5.html - good thread to read for somebody like me, by the way) mentions shimming for end float, which I've read about and have a pretty good handle on from the rebuild manual. Is there a quick and easy source for getting hold of the necessary shims hereabouts?

Cheers!
Michael

[Psimpson7]

Hi Michael,

I think I put the part numbers for the shims in my thread at the time. The suffix K/L layshaft shims are different to the earlier ones, and it wasn't that clear at the time.

I have a few spare shims here I am happy for you to use if you like to get a base clearance? I have TUZ100040, TUZ100020 and TUZ100080 here at the moment. (I used TUZ100060) They were 17$ each from Ricks 4wd in Nerang.

The other option would be to measure the one you have and get a couple either side from Ashcrofts and hope one of them is correct.

I would also change:


Oil pump
Oil pick up filter / gauze
FTC4991 - Oil feed ring (and the little steel shim for it if its suffered any damage) (composite thing that site on the back of the main shaft)
How hard do you use the car. You could look at getting a solid flywheel conversion at the same time. I have one in my car. www.rakeway.co.uk (http://www.rakeway.co.uk)

Rgds
Pete

Edited to add, The genuine sealant in my experience is miles better than anything else i have used. STC50550

[Psimpson7]

Hi Michael,

Found it, here are the layshaft shim details:

start at TUZ100020, 1.477/1.452
next is TUZ100040, 1.502/1.477
upto TUZ100240, 2.027/2.002
then TUZ100270, 2.077/2.052
upto TUZ100330, 2.227/2.202

cheers
Pete

[TeamFA]

Cheers Pete!

Mine is the suffix L box. If any of the shims you have end up looking like they might do the job, I'll give you a yell - otherwise Rick's 4Wd in Nerang might be the go, when I get to that point.

Unlike your layshaft failure, I was lucky and had no damage at all to the oil pump and assembly. I pulled the oil pump out and disassembled (before reading that disassembly isn't recommended, due to the gasket being hard to replace), and it looks in perfect condition - picture below. Even the bearing appeared undamaged and had no noticeable play or distortion. Likewise, I think I'll be able to clean and re-use the oil filter.

I've looked at the solid flywheel clutch conversion - not so much for performance, but for the simplicity of being able to machine the flywheel at next clutch change, but the $$ are out of my reach at the moment. I'm going to try and get away with just the standard clutch kit sans dual-mass flywheel.

Hey - after completing this job, dropping the box for a new clutch in future will be a doddle!

I must say I really appreciate the effort you went to in documenting your rebuild - it's given me a heap of pointers in the right direction. Funny that while looking at your thread this morning, I suddenly knew first hand what each of the pictures really represented!

Thanks again,
Michael.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/technical-chatter/48939d1341962460-02-defender-110-parts-number-confirmation-needed-img_20120708_172223.jpg

[DeanoH]

Very timely thread Michael, AFTER replacing the clutch assembly on the Defender I am now not particularly happy with the amount of gearbox input bearing noise:(. So I guess I'll have to pull the whole thing out again. Got to be easier the second time, especially with all the anti seize I used. :)
What I'm unsure of is whether I can get to the input bearing from the front or if I've got to dismantle the whole thing. Or should I go all out and replace all the gearbox bearings ?
Like many 200K+ Landys there is a fair amount of slop in the drive train, though I did check the output shaft/gear in the TC which looked OK (probably about 20 though slop here). So I guess the slop's in the centre diff. May as well check this at the same time.

I've got visions of an input bearing change and perhaps a couple of centre diff shims/thrust washers replacement turning into something bigger than Ben Hurr. :eek:

Please tell me I'm wrong and I've just a simple gearbox/TC removal with minor part replacement ahead. :):):)

Deano :)

[TeamFA]

From (very recent) memory, the bearing race is pressed into the gearbox front cover from the inside, but I'm not sure if it would be as simple as removing the bolts from the front cover and sliding the cover up and off the input shaft.

A quick look at the MicroCat exploded diagrams seems to indicate that you might be able to. If the bearing comes off with the front cover you might be right, but if it binds to the shaft, I can't see how you would get it off from there.
Edit: Sorry, I would guess that the race would come off with the front cover, but the bearing itself would remain on the shaft... might be tricky to remove that bit.

I'm a rank amateur when it comes to this, though... hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly...

Diagram:
1 - Front Cover
2 - Input Shaft Oil Seal
4 - Input Shaft Bearing

[uninformed]

Pete, is that rakeaway conversion only for TD5's?

what sealant are you reffering to?

[Psimpson7]

Hey Serg,

They do them for other cars/4wd's too, but I think the only LR ones are for the TD5.

The LR gearbox sealant, STC50550, compared to Loctite 518 when it comes to gearbox / transfer box casings and the like. (I had a leak with 518 on the first build.)

cheers
Pete

[uninformed]

thanks Pete,

Im seeing the trend towards the loctite anerobic type gasket makers, 515 and 518 etc. Is there a reason these are preffered over a RTV silicon type gasket maker (permatex Ultra blue/black for example)

[TeamFA]

I'm curious about the sealant question as well. I had planned on using Permatex Ultra Blue, as I've been using it on pretty much everything automotive (except where near fuel injection sensors) for years, and never had a leak...

[Psimpson7]

No idea on the technicalities.

Just the first time I did it, using 518, it leaked between the main and extension housings.

Second time using the LR RTV silicone it didn't.

That LR one is intended for gearbox casings / timing covers etc and seems pretty good.

I also used in on my Transfer case and it is all totally dry still.

Any decent sealant would probably be fine, but i didn't have a lot of luck in this instance with 518. (I have used it succesfully when asembling td5 heads though.)

The other advantage of the stc50550 is that it is black.

[uninformed]

come on Pete, your the engineer :D...My guess is where there is a gasket between to surfaces that will see alot of load, say like the swivel ball to axle flange, it is best practice to use the thinest gasket possible, ideally no gasket at all. For other places non structural, say like the cover of the transfer case, it doesnt really matter.

The problem is in reality is the quality of materials use and the standard of machining.....:o

I had no idea what the LR sealant was, but now that I see it is an RTV, Im guessing that wont be a problem. I have had good results with Permatex Ultra black on drive flanges and transfer case sump cover. This is Permatexs premium RTV sealant....it is also black.

Now in good practice I probably should not have used it at the drive flange. Im guessing from an engineering view point the flange to hub wants to be friction fit like the axle housing flange is with spindle and swivel ball....

I could be wrong though

[Davo]

Do a Google image search for that part number and it comes up with Loctite 598, 5910, and 5900. I've got no idea what the difference is, but it all seems to be a black RTV.

I wouldn't worry too much about where you use it, subject to the usual cautions, etc., etc. Just don't use enough to seal a bathtub.

[langy]

In relation to sealing the gearbox together - it's not exactly which RTV you use, but how it's applied. In short, make the mating surfaces surgically clean, apply a continuous bead and then have a cup of tea. Yep, wait 10-15 min, and then assemble. So far I've assembled a couple of R380's and no leaks. My fav RTV is Silastic 732 in black. Just a note - if you remove gaskets and go with RTV, you have to re-do the preload/shim.

[Psimpson7]

In relation to sealing the gearbox together - it's not exactly which RTV you use, but how it's applied. In short, make the mating surfaces surgically clean, apply a continuous bead and then have a cup of tea. Yep, wait 10-15 min, and then assemble. So far I've assembled a couple of R380's and no leaks. My fav RTV is Silastic 732 in black. Just a note - if you remove gaskets and go with RTV, you have to re-do the preload/shim.

Suffix L boxes are only sealed with sealant. No paper gaskets at all so that shouldn't be an issue in this case.

[TeamFA]

Suffix L boxes are only sealed with sealant. No paper gaskets at all so that shouldn't be an issue in this case.

That's what I was thinking... cool...

[TeamFA]

Okay, now that we have surmounted a seperate obstacle (getting loan approval from the bank to buy our 100 acres at Inverell), we're just about ready to order our parts.

I've looked at the kit required to do the end float measurement, and figure I can purchase for about $100 - the dial indicator and the clamp.

I figure this is a pretty rarely-used item, so I'm a bit disinclined to buy the kit. Normally I don't shy away from buying new tools, though...

Does anybody know if these things can be hired from somewhere?

Alternatively, does anybody have this kit that they could loan me in a week or two? I can happily collect from the Brisbane/Sunshine Coast extended areas...

Cheers!
Michael

[Davo]

BUY IT! Because you'll really, really need it one day and then you won't care what it cost you. Trust me, I've learned all about this over the years. I must have two or three dozen tools I've bought or made and only use twice a decade, but when you need them, you really do need them.

[Blknight.aus]

Alternatively, does anybody have this kit that they could loan me in a week or two? I can happily collect from the Brisbane/Sunshine Coast extended areas...

Cheers!
Michael

Yep, you can borrow mine, but I'm not home till the 20th.

[TeamFA]

BUY IT! Because you'll really, really need it one day and then you won't care what it cost you. Trust me, I've learned all about this over the years. I must have two or three dozen tools I've bought or made and only use twice a decade, but when you need them, you really do need them.


Davo, I really, really hear you... but this is one time I can't justify the expense for such a little-used (hopefully) item. I also have a workshop with more tools bought for a single purpose, then rarely (if ever) used again, that you can shake a left-handed counter-oscillating carbon-fibre stick at.

Were times more fiscal, I should have another one to add to the collection...

Cheers!

[TeamFA]

Yep, you can borrow mine, but I'm not home till the 20th.

Cheers Dave, I'm only going to be ordering the parts on Wednesday, so it's unlikely I'll get to that stage by the 20th, so I may take you up on your offer... I'll PM you then if so.

Thanks.

[TeamFA]

Ordered the parts...!!!

[TeamFA]

... big plastic box of parts on my doorstep yesterday afternoon... woo hoo! This weekend the fun begins...

[DeanoH]

Good job! Take lots of photos and use little words when explaining. :D:p

I'll be following your 'Voyage Of Discovery err...Defender' closely. :)

Deano :)

[TeamFA]

Happy with my progress thus far. Started work on Saturday lunchtime, by tools-down last night I had a reassembled gearbox/extension housing attached to the bell housing, new clutch fitted, and clutch release lever cleaned, lubed, reassembled and fitted.


Box arrived.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50097&d=1345420703

Mainshaft in ready for bearing race and end-float check.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50098&d=1345420946

Test-fit centre plate.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50099&d=1345421035

Ready for assembly, prior to input shaft.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50105&d=1345421279

Centre plate on!
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50106&d=1345422038

[TeamFA]

Lining up the selector for 5th/reverse stumped me for a bit - and whilst stuffing about I accidentally pulled the selector shaft out too much, which had the effect of locking the box in 4th... so I had to remove the centre plate and re-do the selector shaft.

This is how the 5th/reverse selector lines up. The manual has good instructions on how to set the selector shaft up inside the box, but lacking a bit on how to align it for assembly in the extension housing.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50107&d=1345423399

How I use my puller set pieces with the press to get some of the bearings and races on.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50108&d=1345423510

[TeamFA]

Overall, the process has been easier than I had imagined. Actually getting hands-on with the gearbox, disassembling and reassembling makes it clear how they actually work. This is my first look inside one, and I must admit that it has always been a bit of a "magic box" as to how it all happens in there.

The workshop manual is one of the best I've used - previously used Haynes manuals for the Harley Sportster and VN/VT Commodores, and a factory Buell manual for an M2 and the current XB12R. The Land Rover one is excellent.

Now comes all the boring bits of getting everything back together, before I can see if it all works. I can engage all gears by manually moving the selector shaft, so it's looking promising...

[Psimpson7]

Nice work.. I did exactly the same as you with the selector forks! frustrating!

[TeamFA]

Ah... good to see somebody else has made my mistakes before...

Hey Pete - I just realised - when I was doing the reassembly (actually, it was when I was disassembling first), I stumbled across the same issue you had in your post:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1461451-post20.html

... where there actually wasn't a roll pin in the output shaft at all when I pulled it apart.

That was the last post on your thread - did you put one back in during reassembly?

Cheers!

[Psimpson7]

Yes I did! although I really wasnt sure at the time and I couldnt get an answer! I did document the entire rebuild in detail in the thread on my car, just not there aswell

It obviously isnt important it would seem!

[TeamFA]

Okay, so yesterday afternoon I managed to get everything together, turned the key... battery gave me a few disinterested turns, then too flat to bother.

Charged the battery overnight, returned to it this afternoon.

Cranks brilliantly, but not firing.

I'm about to start searching the forums, but if anybody has a light-bulb moment, I'm keen for any advice.

I've had the battery disconnected for the 10 weeks or so that she's been sitting there. There's half a tank of diesel.

This is my first diesel - would it possible that the diesel has gone off in that time?

Is there anything you have to do to reset the ECU (or something) after having the battery disconnected for so long?

I've made sure the two earth connectors (to the gearbox/transfer case) are nice and tight. The starter motor connectors are quite obviously working. Other than sensor connectors (reverse light switch, CDL light switch, etc.), I don't think I've disturbed anything that would stop the electrickery.

Off to search... what an anticlimax!!

Cheers!
Michael.

[Psimpson7]

Fuel cut off under the bonnet tripped, or could you possibly have damaged the crank position sensor when pulling the gearbox maybe.

The fuel will still be fine.

Editied to add.. starting at the basics... when you turn on the ignition, can you hear the fuel pump?

[TeamFA]

G'day!

Fuel pump sounds fine, turning on when it should, normal sound, etc.

Have already checked the fuel cut-off, pressing it does nothing (ie. no movement), so I assume not activated?

I just stumbled across a comment re: the crank angle sensor - might get out there and have a look before the light goes...

Much appreciated, sir!

[Psimpson7]

I am assuming you reconnected it! good luck

[TeamFA]

I am assuming you reconnected it! good luck

You assume incorrectly!!!

It lives!!!

I hadn't even connected it - the only thing I missed. I think my assistant may have disconnected that one!

Driven her out of the driveway, reverse and up to third, no problems. Going to take her for a longer drive now, but had to let you know first.

Many thanks, Pete! I owe you a cold one or ten when we finally meet.

Cheers!
Michael.

[TeamFA]

Just taken her for a longer drive, up to 100 km/h, all gears. Everything sounds okay - a bit of a rattle at high revs in 4th at the gearstick housing - I might need to adjust the bias springs, it sounds like they're tapping against a rattling gearstick.

The gearbox is nice and quiet - which you can enjoy in the fullest when you have no tunnel installed. Don't need the heater on, either.

Quick inspection underneath and in the engine bay when I got back, no obvious oil leaks (time will tell!) or anything else amiss.

Woo hoo!
Michael.

[TeamFA]

Oh, just as an aside - the workshop manual that has so far been extremely detailed and easy to follow, didn't mention the CKP plug on the "reassembly" page...

Still not something I should have missed. Will never forget to connect that one again!

[Psimpson7]

Good work Michael!! I bet you have a massive sense of satisfaction hey!

Rgds
Pete

[TeamFA]

Good work Michael!! I bet you have a massive sense of satisfaction hey!

Rgds
Pete

It's up there... biggest mechanical challenge to date. Hopefully no issues will arise.

I'm going to enjoy my scotch this evening...

[Davo]

Good on you. I haven't tackled a modern gearbox yet and don't really want to!

[pjlhat]

Very interesting and good thread, thank you, it is well timed for me as I am about to decend in to the bowls of my GB & TC. Having already completly stripped the motor for a rebore and total rebuild!! I have a big project ahead of me.:(
I note that Croft state that the R380 56A J has a few short comings?? mine has been fine to date and only reracing it because I have it out and it has done a fairly heavy 350Ks. Can some one tell me if while I am in there can I upgrad to the L specs, or is it a total different set up.:angel:
Can you tell me the weight of your big plastic box and how much freight was involved. Did it have more than the GB bits and clutch/presure plate in it. What is a Solid Flywheel Conversion??:o
Thanks:) Peter

[TeamFA]

G'day Peter,
Not sure of the gearbox differences - but I've come across a few different threads here on the forum that go into the differences.

My big plastic box cost me 120 GBP to deliver, I'm at work at the moment, but will let you know the size and weight this evening.

Even with this shipping cost, a saved a substantial amount of money compared to buying locally. A shame, as I would prefer to support local businesses, but when the price differential is so great, it's a difficult ask.

The solid flywheel conversion is only if you have a dual-mass flywheel currently - do you know what yours is? A standard solid flywheel clutch setup has a solid flywheel, with a multi-layer clutch plate that has a spring assembly built-in, that assists in removing vibes from the engine pulses to the transmission. A dual-mass flywheel arrangement puts the springs into a flywheel that's made up of two wheels, and that part absorbs the vibrations.

The economic difference is that a solid flywheel can be machined, so a clutch rebuild is a cheaper option. A dual-mass flywheel can't be machined.

Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable will be along shortly...

[TeamFA]

I spent about 5 hours yesterday correcting a mistake I made.

I had noticed a slight oil weep, coming from the lower part of the join between the transfer case and gearbox.

Nothing for it other than coming off. I had a think, and decided to see if I could seperate the gearbox and transfer case enough to have a look, without taking either completely off.

First I removed the propshafts, tunnel (and subsequent transfer case linkages), transfer case oil breather, and earth lead. I then removed the 4 bolts from the t/case chassis mount to the t/case. I then removed all of the nuts/bolts holding the t/case and gearbox together.

At this point, the lowest bolt hole proceeded to flow oil. It was after having a good look at the assembly that I realised where my mistake had been.

This particular bolt (like some others) actually goes through into the t/case, not into webbing on the outside. The lowest one actually sits below the t/case oil level.

This is the first time I've come across this. In my case, I didn't apply any gasket to the metal around the lower hole, I must have made an assumption that it was only going into webbing at that point.

I was able to creep the t/case backwards, still supported by the output shaft and sliding along the chassis mount, enough to get about 20mm clearance, confirmed the bit I'd missed, cleaned it all up, and re-applied gasket to the entire surface.

20-minute drive later yesterday afternoon is showing no leak at all, at this stage, so hopefully it's fixed.

So 5 hours wasted to correct a silly mistake - one that will never be made again!

[TeamFA]

Peter, attached are the pics of the tool solution I used to undo the grub screw from the selector assembly. The hex bit probably isn't the correct size, but I just grabbed one to show you what I was talking about.

In other news, I seem to have fixed the gearbox/TC oil leak. The only leak I have left is from the gearbox drain plug, but I was lazy and didn't gasket or replace the crush washer, so my own fault. I'll pull that out and drain, then gasket and replace, then top up again.

Cheers all!
Michael

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=51040&d=1347704005

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=51041&d=1347704086

[pjlhat]

Thanks Michael, I am still a bit unsure if I should be going into the GB. Doing a complete rebuild on the motor (350 ks) I don't want to have to go back latter and do the GB. The only indication of anything askew is that selecting third has been a bit notchy and keeping in mind the old saying
" if it ain't broke don't fix it" My concern being if I am only replaceing worn parts how well will the box setup again with the mix of parts.
The other ? for anyone with an opinon is taking the bore out by .040 (max) and fitting a Turner performance head, will the Injector pump need adjusting:angel:
Peter

[TeamFA]

I was forced to go into mine, otherwise I wouldn't have, but mine has only done 100K kms.

The selecting third might just be a bias spring adjustment issue - have you checked that out yet? Plenty of information on the forums here already, and the workshop manual covers it pretty well.

That grub screw was the only nut/bolt that gave me any concern in the whole job. Everything else was straight forward.

The only thing that really surprised me was the amount of force required to pull the oil seal collar off - you can see pictures of the 20-ton press I had to use to get it off, in combination with my new gear puller set. I would also suggest that if you don't have a good set (or equivalent, I'm sure there's a lot of choice out the), then removing and replacing the bearing would be extremely difficult, if not impossible. I wouldn't have made it as far.

As far as I've been able to determine, the mix of new and old parts shouldn't be an issue, as long as you correctly adjust for end float, as per the manual.

[pjlhat]

After a long wait for parts I made some good progres with the GB back together and sealed up when I discovered the Interlock spool still on the bench:mad: With the main Sharft back in I am still not sure I have got it right, going by your photo Michael it looks OK but!!! Have enclosed a photo to see if anyone get put me in the right direction. I am sure the larger interlocker goes in side the main box and there seems to be no upside or downside for it, but not sure ab out the little hook bits on the Interlocker:angel:
Peter
Not a good day, cannot get photo to down load:angel: