TD6 Service / Now wont START

[33chinacars]

Did a service on my TD6. Oil, Fuel, Air, filters & pollen filter. Flattened battery trying to start it. Recharged battery. Every thing worked O'k before service ???
There would appear to be no fuel in new fuel filter. I can hear fuel pump underside of car running. Fuel tank was a bit down so put more fuel in, now over 1/2 full. No difference. Line off fuel filter & can hear it gurgling but still no fuel. Tried to suck fuel through with air compressor. Still no go. Fuel pump runs for about 20 seconds then shuts off. Turn Ignition off & on again same thing.

Also reset service indicator reads 22,000 kms. Is that normal ??

And have Temp in F on dash & C in touch screen ???

Cleared all faults with IIDTool Not that there were any that would cause any of these problems.

HELP

Gary

[DeanoH]

What's the fuel priming process for a TD6, should be in the owners manual. If this doesn't work I'd suspect the new filter, did you blow through it before you installed it ?, it may be blocked or not sealing correctly so air is getting in.

Don't know anything specific to TD6 for common faults/processes. :(

Deano :)

[33chinacars]

Doesn't seem to prime properly. Now what new secondary fuel pump ??

Gary

[Laurie]

Gary
Have you locked the car after doing the service ? The old Td5 sometimes didn't start after working on it opening doors etc. Did master lock and then unlock, seems to be linked to the security programme !
Might be worth a try.

Laurie

[DeanoH]

Doesn't seem to prime properly. Now what new secondary fuel pump ??

Gary

No. Check what you've done. The chances that the fuel pump has failed at the same time as your work is slim.
The fuel pump running for 20 secs or so is normal, it's a safety thing, you don't want fuel to be pumping with ign. on in the case of an accident and the engine stopped.
I'd be following whatever LR say in the book re priming and going on from there. Check the new fuel filter install. :)

Deano :)

[jsp]

If no fuel comes out at the fuel filter inlet just track back to the pump, its pretty easy to get to the out of tank inline pump under the back of the car, crack a line there and see if fuel's comming out of the tank and or the inline pump.

When my inline pump went he intank ones still had enough push to start the car and let it idle and drive somewhat slowly at low revs and get home, and when tested the inline pump had failed competely, so somethings amis in your system.

[33chinacars]

Thanks Guys

Have blown & sucked thru filter. Filter doesn't seem to be a problem. Tried to suck thru from tank. No go. Even used kero gun to try and suck thru. Also had line off filter trying to get a flow. After a lot of mucking around only a bit of a dribble.
Did lock car overnight before trying to start ?
Will have another go tommorrow when battery charge again

Gary

[Daniel]

Did a service on my TD6. Oil, Fuel, Air, filters & pollen filter. Flattened battery trying to start it. Recharged battery. Every thing worked O'k before service ???
There would appear to be no fuel in new fuel filter. I can hear fuel pump underside of car running. Fuel tank was a bit down so put more fuel in, now over 1/2 full. No difference. Line off fuel filter & can hear it gurgling but still no fuel. Tried to suck fuel through with air compressor. Still no go. Fuel pump runs for about 20 seconds then shuts off. Turn Ignition off & on again same thing.

Also reset service indicator reads 22,000 kms. Is that normal ??

And have Temp in F on dash & C in touch screen ???

Cleared all faults with IIDTool Not that there were any that would cause any of these problems.

Gary

Not familiar with "IIDTool" - I use Hawkeye - perhaps your "IIDTool" has flashed one of the ECUs with an error code to prevent start?? The °F setting gives me the clue that your "IIDTool" has played around with the td6 ECUs and done something that it should not have. I'd be sorting that issue out first with a diagnostic tool that is reliable and dependable.

Yes, the normal oil change interval for a td6 is 22k. I've had mine since new and usually change oil every 25k or thereabouts. I use normal td 15w40 oil - $3.50 per litre.

Mine has 185k and I have only changed fuel filter once on it since new after I clogged up the filter with some bio fuel that went solid in winter.

I'm intrigued that others are having feed pump problems - I follow advice given by an old diesel mechanic - a cup full of secondhand ATF into each tank full - modern diesel is low sulphur or even ultra low sulphur and all fuel components thereby lack lubrication normally provided by suphur in the fuel.

Did it run at all after service? If yes, then it ran on the fuel in the IP and then got it from your filter. You need to disconnect the output hose of your fuel filter and see that it is delivering fuel to the IP - if it is then it is simply a matter of cranking until you prime the IP.

Normally on such electric feed pump diesels one replaces the fuel filter full of fuel and then disconnects the filter output hose, turns on ignition to check that fuel is flowing out of new filter with no air bubbles and then reconnects and all is OK.

My old D2 td5 needs about 5 minutes of cranking if I run out of fuel. It is a process of letting the pump run for it's alloted 20s, turn off for 20 s, crank for 20s, turn off and then repeat the same process over and over until it fires.

Lastly do not rely on a recharged battery - when my 6 year old battery started to die last winter no amount of charging helped. I simply removed the RR battery and put loosely in its place (as a temp measure only) a small new battery and the RR fired up instantly. An L322 requires a full 12.5 v to start - that is why a 110 Ah 850CCA battery of fitted - when you turn your key on all sort so high load electronics are fired up and an undersized battery or dying original battery will not do the job. Jumper leads (from experience) will make no difference if the battery is not to specs.

Not sure where you are but a cold battery (<20°C) will be proportionally less effective at colder temps.

[33chinacars]

Thanks Daniel

But didn't run after filter change. Have cycled ignition a number of time with fuel line off, no flow.

As for the F & C issue that happened before plugging the IIDTool

Gary

[Daniel]

Thanks Daniel

But didn't run after filter change. Have cycled ignition a number of time with fuel line off, no flow.

As for the F & C issue that happened before plugging the IIDTool

Gary

Just stating the obvious, but if no fuel flow then no start!

If the °C changed to °F during the service then something electrical happened.

It is normal practice to disconnect the vehicle battery during and servicing action just to be on the safe side from stray currents/static electricity discharges etc.

I would be checking that indeed your fuel pump is pumping and it is not the EAS compressor or something else purring away in the rear of the truck.

You'll need to get some fuel pressure at the IP at the engine before doing any further cranking.

This is all dependent on your diagnostic tool properly reading all the codes. If as you say there are no fault codes then your tool is not working properly as it would for a start issue a fault code that there is no fuel pressure at the IP.

[33chinacars]

All go now. :D:D Reverse filled inline pump. Refilled fuel filter & IP. Cycled ignition a few times, pump sounded different as if it was working this time . Fired into life first go. :):):).

Still got F & C issues. Changes on touch screen but not dash. Both have same numerical value just F & C chance . Didn't disconect battery for service as was only changing filters ;)

Gary

[Laurie]

Gary thats good news, any further ideas how the pump had no fuel ?

Laurie

[Tombie]

Daniel

Your comment is concerning! Dont EVER continually crank the starter for long periods of time...

There is a simple priming sequence for starting a TD5 that has run out of fuel.

Extended cranking will damage the Starter.


BTW - A better suited oil for a TD6 is 5W-40 or 10W-40 you aren't doing your engine any favours (or your economy).

[33chinacars]

Sorry Laurie NFI about thefuel issue. Except it had been awhile since last driven & tank was down to about 1/8 full. Probably enough if I hadn't chanced fuel filters.

As for oil Tombie I used 0W-40.

And No didn't continually crank starter

Thanks to all for your encouragement & help

Gary

PS Tombie though you had left us:wasntme:

[Daniel]

Daniel

Your comment is concerning! Dont EVER continually crank the starter for long periods of time...

There is a simple priming sequence for starting a TD5 that has run out of fuel.

Extended cranking will damage the Starter.


BTW - A better suited oil for a TD6 is 5W-40 or 10W-40 you aren't doing your engine any favours (or your economy).

cranking - of course - you had me worried, I looked at my post again and read 20s - I don't consider that a long period! BTW what is the "td5 priming sequence"?

td6 oil - Initial LR dealer service at 25k included synthetic 5W-40 oil and it made no diff at all to anything inc "economy" hence I just went back to the basic corner shop td15W-40. I have 185k on the truck and change oil at 22k-25k and filters every second oil change.

[harlie]

.....
BTW what is the "td5 priming sequence"?
....


Quote Land Rover. (td5 Discovery / Defender)

If the vehicle runs out of fuel, or the fuel level is so low that the fuel system draws air into the fuel rail, the fuel rail will need to be purged before the engine will start. This can be achieved by following the procedure below.

If this procedure is carried out on a vehicle that has not run out of fuel or otherwise drawn air into
the fuel rail, it can lead to the engine flooding and failing to start.

Purge

1. Turn the ignition switch off and wait 15 seconds.

2. Turn the ignition switch to position II and wait 3 minutes (this ensures that the fuel system purges all the air from the fuel rail within the cylinder head).

3. Fully depress the throttle pedal.

4. Keeping the throttle pedal fully depressed, crank the engine.

5. As soon as engine speed exceeds 600 rev/min, release the throttle pedal and the ignition switch. The engine must not be cranked continuously for more than 30 seconds at any one time.

6. If the engine fails to start, repeat the above procedure.

[Daniel]

Quote Land Rover. (td5 Discovery / Defender)
.......




Thanks for that = this is just common sense procedure for any diesel engine anyway and is what I had posted as my procedure other than I said 20s and not 30s. Tombie took issue with me and told me to follow the correct procedure......

Just goes to show that common sense usually works just as good as ......

Some people just want to tell others how to do the @!@!#!#$ obvious! yet another symptom of the nanny state that we live in today - that we call Australia.

[harlie]

Hey Garry, was the engine cold, I image it’s not real warm down in Vic.

Based on what I observed while replacing the inline pump. The inline won’t pump air. If the tank is very low the fuel level is below the mounting height of the inline.

During & after cold start the fuel temp controller actually directs the return fuel directly back to the inline pump (not tank), there is a manifold just behind the inline pump – it's a function that aids in warm up by directing warm fuel straight back to the engine. Air is usually purged through the injectors (engine is not smooth for several sec) or back to the tank via the return. This may be how the inline has been left full of air. Or the fuel line may have just completely drained back to the tank….

Good to see you're back on the road…

[33chinacars]

Hi Harlie

Thanks you probably hit it in one. When I first tried to start the car fuel tank was down to about 1/8 full. Outside temp was about 12 degrees. Not like the warm days your having. When it wouldn't start was getting bl***y pi##ed off with it to say the least.

Wasn't till I force fed the fuel lines from near the fuel filter that it started. Didn't even run rough. Started as if nothing had happened. Grrrr.

O well something new every day

Only problem now is the mixture of F & C temps on the dash & touch screen. Both units the same "53 " Tried to change it but only C on touch screen changes.
Gary

[stevemfr]

Hi Gary,
Glad it is up and running. I chatted with Christian & Patrick about your F and C problem - comms between the cluster and the nav screen are very slow (like days :o) at times and the prob could simply be the result of a flat battery. It should then go away on its own in time. You can also force a reboot by entering the cluster's 'hidden menu' and hitting 'reset' IIRC (don't have a link and have to go to bed... sorry :p Post if you can't find info)


Not familiar with "IIDTool" ... I'd be sorting that issue out first with a diagnostic tool that is reliable and dependable.

Hi Daniel,
You are right in being skeptical with new products - and we are certainly not infallible. But we are more than a bunch of enthusiastic amateurs and do our very best to make sure no faulty items are delivered to end users. Amongst other items, we also have a relatively large group of beta testers including Gary... :)
Despite the fact that it is new, we believe that the IIDTool is reliable and dependable. :D

[33chinacars]

Hi Steve

Hows things on that side of the world.

Yes flattened battery while trying to start car. TWICE :wasntme:
So as you say hope my F & C problem sorts itself out.

Also noticed a couple of other problems on a longer drive today. Car settled to Hwy hite at speeds above 100 kmh. But then went back to Std hite without going bellow 70 kmh. Seems to have corrected itself on the way home.

The other thing is it is now harder to start especially if it sits for any time. Its as if fuel pump is now loosing its prime. Or an air lock ?? Had to cycle ignition twice ( about 20 seconds each time ) before it woul start. Before servicing even after having not been driven for a week or more it would only that a few seconds ( until dash lights went out) before it would start.

And I love my IIDTool :):):) As do others that have them.

Gary

[jsp]

The other thing is it is now harder to start especially if it sits for any time. Its as if fuel pump is now loosing its prime. Or an air lock ?? Had to cycle ignition twice ( about 20 seconds each time ) before it woul start. Before servicing even after having not been driven for a week or more it would only that a few seconds ( until dash lights went out) before it would start.


Has the inline fuel pump ever been replaced? Mine did this, then a few weeks later (its a daily driver) it started loosing power under acceleration.

[33chinacars]

Has the inline fuel pump ever been replaced? Mine did this, then a few weeks later (its a daily driver) it started loosing power under acceleration.

I've only had it for 12 months. But not in my time. Only 107,000km when bought so I dought it

Gary

[jsp]

its only a thought, may not be your issue, I don't know other peoples mileages, mine was done at 120k, and again at 210k.

[harlie]

Garry, you either have a leak (fuel running back allowing air into the system somewhere) or need to replace the inline.

Mine went @ 140k, have a mate who lives at Tweed, his went this week @ 92k, however both of ours just failed, came out to start it and no go. If the inline is the problem you should have a fault about low side fuel pressure in the engine ECU (no dash lights). The ECU actually stops the engine from starting if the pressure is below its preset to prevent damage to the common rail pump.

If it seems to get worse the longer it sits I would be looking for a leak. Have the all the clamps around the filter been replaced with screw up ones? Can you move any of the fuel hoses (engine bay and all the joins around the inline)? Filter on properly?

[33chinacars]

Garry, you either have a leak (fuel running back allowing air into the system somewhere) or need to replace the inline.

If it seems to get worse the longer it sits I would be looking for a leak. Have the all the clamps around the filter been replaced with screw up ones? Can you move any of the fuel hoses (engine bay and all the joins around the inline)? Filter on properly?

Yep, replaced clamps on filter. But will be rechecking all again & inline pump which hasn't been touched.


041260 - P1180 Low side fuel pressure sensor. Plausability ( Fuel filter) Pre-delivery below starting required

Had this awhile ago. Cleared fault and didn't come back. So didn't worry about it too much.



So more likely pump. With everything O'k till I played with filter

Gary

[33chinacars]

The ECU actually stops the engine from starting if the pressure is below its preset to prevent damage to the common rail pump.



Thanks Harlie

That would explain why it wouldn't start after filter change

Gary

[Homestar]

Mine is definately on borrowed time. If I let the tank run below 1/4 it is pot luck whether it will start again or not...:p

So far, when it doesn't, leaving it for a few minutes, or adding a jerry can of fuel has done the trick. I suppose I should order one before the enevitable happens and I have to bring it home again on a tilt tray...:angel:

[Summiitt]

Sorry guys, dumb question, which one is the inline pump and which one is the filter? New to these motors but handy with the spanners! Do these td6 have an in tank pump?

[jsp]

Sorry guys, dumb question, which one is the inline pump and which one is the filter? New to these motors but handy with the spanners! Do these td6 have an in tank pump?

There's three low pressure intank pumps, then there's the high pressure inline pump located next to the tank at the back of the car, then there's the super high pressure mechanical pump driven by the engine. The filter is a largish canister thing with two hoses going in the top, clamped to the right of the engine if your standing infront of the car looking at the engine with the bonnet open.

Fuel filter picture pinched from FFRR.com:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/3265_82039446617_4116438_n.jpg

If you have a copy of RAVE then its al shown from about page 152 onwards. Or check out an online version of RAVE here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/44424637/Workshop-Manual-L322-Range-Rover from page 150: http://www.scribd.com/doc/44424637/Workshop-Manual-L322-Range-Rover#page=150

The mechanical pump supposedly will be damaged if its not fed enough fuel, so the cars computer ecu either wont let the car start, or rev limits the engine based on fuel pressure in the scenario there isnt enough fuel pressure.

When I was looking at TD6 L322's, most sellers pointed out the inline pump had recently been replaced as it seems to be a common failure point which if anything should be put on the 100k service interval.

[Daniel]

......

When I was looking at TD6 L322's, most sellers pointed out the inline pump had recently been replaced as it seems to be a common failure point which if anything should be put on the 100k service interval........

This is odd - My td6 truck has over 185k - nothing touched in transmission yet and nothing in fuel pumps. As all I hear about is others having both tranny and fuel pump issues.

Re fuel pump, I follow the old tradition of adding a cup of old ATF to the fuel tank every now and then. I frequently run the tank almost dry - can fill 103 litres in most occasions. May be I should add an inline pump to my next UK parts order.

[Laurie]

:mad:Daniel the late 04 build and 05 models had a different Torque Converter to earlier models. The earlier versions were plagued by problems of a batch of faulty clutch plate linings that were not properly bonded. It seems if you didn't get one of these T/C's, the auto lasted till the oil failed. (SEALED FOR LIFE ). So it was a lucky dip.

As far as the fuel pumps are concerned it could be as simple as the original supplier at the time. Unfortunately LR cut costs in all the wrong ways. :mad: eg front ball joints on early D3's were Eastern European and chopped out early given their original specification.

I agree about fuel additive completly, always put some in on each fill and every other fill when even using Vortex Diesel now, as some claim that a lot of the diesels available now have up to 9% bio in them. See at 10% they have to tell the consumer !!!


Laurie

[Daniel]

: ..........
I agree about fuel additive completly, always put some in on each fill and every other fill when even using Vortex Diesel now, as some claim that a lot of the diesels available now have up to 9% bio in them. See at 10% they have to tell the consumer !!!..............

Laurie
..
..
I fill up at my local servo which has bio in the fuel. I also run my td6 on my own bio - usually at 80% biodiesel to 20% petdiesel. Bio has high lubrication qualities whereas modern petdiesel (lo and ultr lo sulphur diesel as mandated by the greens/labor coalition) has virtually none. That is why I put in used ATF (settled for months after draining from the tranny) as it gives petdiesel some lubrication once again.

[33chinacars]

Just a quick update. Replaced inline fuel pump. All O'k for now. Only trouble was removing original hose clamps.
Even my F & C is fixed as well.

Gary

[Daniel]

Just a quick update. Replaced inline fuel pump...........
Gary
.
.
Out of interest did you buy the pump locally or import from UK? i see that they are quite cheap in UK.

[harlie]

Few of us have bought this one, about a week for shipping.
eBay inline fuel pump (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170781469085'ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)

Mate at Tweed needed one as he was stranded, $460 from the dealer, 2 days to get it in.

[33chinacars]

Few of us have bought this one, about a week for shipping.
eBay inline fuel pump (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170781469085'ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)

Same one as Harlie quoted. Ebay from Poland. Just over a week. $100.51 including postage. Not genuine

Gary

[Daniel]

Same one as Harlie quoted. Ebay from Poland. Just over a week. $100.51 including postage. Not genuine

Gary

"not genuine" - what is genuine, GM, VW and every other manufacturer have huge factories in Poland, Czech Rep, Turkey, China, Thailand etc etc. They get made to the specifications and QC provided by the car maker.

With China the secret is to specify "1st class export quality" as they sell off their seconds for local consumption. I can get these from China for about $15.

Does anyone know if the L322 tdv8 uses the same inline fuel pump and if they have had any issues with them? It sounds like the oldest td6 may have had a crook batch of pumps fitted when built.

My 2005 L322 td6 now has 185k and no probs - only work done on the truck was the factory front diff repair and a new battery last year.

[jsp]

With China the secret is to specify "1st class export quality" as they sell off their seconds for local consumption. I can get these from China for about $15.

Hey Mate,

please let me know where I can get a decent replacement for $15, I will happily buy a few as spares, as My car's on its third, and pretty well all the others I looked at (02-05 due to my budget) have had them replaced.

Maybe we can do a group buy.

I got mine overnight from Karcraft, it was about $240 from memory.

[33chinacars]

The one I got from Poland had no markings or numbers at all on pump . Removed one had BMW markings

Gary

[Daniel]

The one I got from Poland had no markings or numbers at all on pump . Removed one had BMW markings

Gary

Can you please provide the BMW part number of the original pump?

[Homestar]

Can you please provide the BMW part number of the original pump?

BMW PART NUMBER: 16117165590

If you can get these at a decent price, I'll grab a couple.

Cheers - Gav

[harlie]

BMW PART NUMBER: 16117165590

If you can get these at a decent price, I'll grab a couple.

Cheers - Gav

Me too pls.

What do we know about the intank pump?

[33chinacars]

What do we know about the intank pump?

WFX000160 ( Genuine ) from Rimmers $348 [ can remember if this included postage , probably not]

Have yet to do more searching

Gary

[33chinacars]

WFX000160 ( intank fuel pump & sender ) from Britishparts UK $329 + postage

WFX000181 ( LRO 23043 ) is the inline fuel pump

These are both Land Rover numbers

Gary

[jsp]

With China the secret is to specify "1st class export quality" as they sell off their seconds for local consumption. I can get these from China for about $15.

Any updates on how and where to get these cheap pumps?

[Daniel]

Any updates on how and where to get these cheap pumps?

I am not a motor parts vendor but have imported parts from China for my personal use and then disposed off excess to others.

Sorry I got a large job a week ago and will be tied up for the next 3 weeks so cannot spend the time chasing this up with my Chinese contacts. As soon as I have my 'head above water' work wise I'll follow this up.

In the past I purchased my pumps when I was in China and it takes more time to follow up through email contact.

I will need BMW part numbers and not LR part numbers for both pumps if that is what is being requested.