MY D4 Is Bleeding

[Celtoid]

Hi All,

Been noticing some black dots on the floor of my garage for a few weeks now but they were dry to the touch so I assumed I'd driven on some tar or the like.

I've just had my garage floor re-surfaced with an epoxy colour and treatment and now realise that the black dots are oil (but previously absorbed by my dodgy concrete).

The oil is hitting the floor on the inboard, rear, RHS of the front wheel. I can't see exactly where it's coming from but on inspection there are a few damp looking spots around that part of the engine.

It's now booked in to LR.

:(

[elsey]

The oil could be coming from the 'oil level sensor switch'. I know of two D4s (including mine) where the seal has failed. No doubt the LR work shop will discover the source.

Lou...

[Celtoid]

The oil could be coming from the 'oil level sensor switch'. I know of two D4s (including mine) where the seal has failed. No doubt the LR work shop will discover the source.

Lou...

Thanks Lou.

Hopefully it's nothing too serious....then again....a new engine just before the car goes out of warranty does have an appeal.....LOL!!!!

Cheers,

Kev.

[Celtoid]

Apparently there is a clamp or bracket surrounding the primary turbo....it was seriously loose.

I'm not sure if that needed to be loosened when they did the secondary turbo change a while ago, or whether it was a factory fault. Will find out when I pick the car up tomorrow.

Hopefully that's it all sorted now.

[Celtoid]

Apparently there is a clamp or bracket surrounding the primary turbo....it was seriously loose.

I'm not sure if that needed to be loosened when they did the secondary turbo change a while ago, or whether it was a factory fault. Will find out when I pick the car up tomorrow.

Hopefully that's it all sorted now.

It was actually the Secondary turbo that had the loose fitting...the one that LR changed. Of course, they are saying it was an assembly issue...:)

Coincidence or otherwise, the car appears a lot smoother and slightly quieter now...

[Graeme]

they are saying it was an assembly issue..a re-assembly issue?

[Celtoid]

a re-assembly issue?


Oh they are inferring that the turbo comes pre-built and it was not put together properly by the supplier.

"They just stick it on the car"

It's a tough one, as I never actually saw the problem. I know from my own aircraft engineering days that it is a major hassle when you fit an unserviceable part....that is supposed to be serviceable. Some would say that you should conduct pre-installation checks, but that isn't always practicle. The onus is on the guy that supplies the part with a serviceable label.

However, LR said the clamp was seriously loose but the car has been driven on and off road so anything that was slightly loose (and not obvious) when fitted could easily become very loose.

Dunno.....it peaves me, but I'm glad they found a definative problem.

[Celtoid]

It's leaking again....worse than before. I was running so well too.

Booked in again...

Another turbo replacement?

:mad:

[LRTech23]

It's leaking again....worse than before. I was running so well too.

Booked in again...

Another turbo replacement?

:mad:


Unfortunately the turbo's on these go... well... a lot.

I've got about 3 Secondary turbo's sitting on my mantle piece as decoration.

The bracket you are referring to is NOT pre built on the turbo, and needs to be attached by a technician.

I have done this job a few times and given that the pipe is in a very awkward place it would not surprise me if someone had left it loose.

Unfortunately, due to the fact that so many of these turbo's have let go, Land Rover have stated that they have exhausted their supply of secondary turbo's for the 3.0l engine, so you won't be getting a new turbo, and if this is the issue, you may have to wait a few weeks for it to be completely rectified.

Hopefully it's not that though. Best of luck!

[Celtoid]

Unfortunately the turbo's on these go... well... a lot.

I've got about 3 Secondary turbo's sitting on my mantle piece as decoration.

The bracket you are referring to is NOT pre built on the turbo, and needs to be attached by a technician.

I have done this job a few times and given that the pipe is in a very awkward place it would not surprise me if someone had left it loose.

Unfortunately, due to the fact that so many of these turbo's have let go, Land Rover have stated that they have exhausted their supply of secondary turbo's for the 3.0l engine, so you won't be getting a new turbo, and if this is the issue, you may have to wait a few weeks for it to be completely rectified.

Hopefully it's not that though. Best of luck!

Thanks mate...I think....LOL!!!

I'm heading off-road in about 3 weeks time, for a week or camping and driving...it's also a 4 hr one way drive to get there. Better be sorted before then.....:mad:

I thought it was just the first build of D4s that had secondary turbo issues?

Kev.

[LRTech23]

We are still replacing them all the time. On all 3.0l's whether they be D$'s or Sports.

The problem Land Rover have, is that they spend all this money on the engine, which I believe is originally a Peugeot engine, and then they slap their own "out of the dumpster" turbo's on them to reduce the cost. Garret make fine turbo's, however Land Rover only give them enough money to make cheap, horrible ones.

Unfortunately for them it has cost them a lot more than they expected. And unfortunately also, these problems are passed on to the customers.

Hope all goes well.

-Tech23

[scarry]

Just glad i got the 2.7;)

Couldn't help myself:wasntme:

What is worse is these issues gives the brand a bad name.......:(

[Graeme]

It's leaking again....worse than before. I was running so well too.

Booked in again...

Another turbo replacement?

:mad:
It sounds as though just a decent job needs to be done of connecting the hose.

[Disco4SE]

My 3.0Lt D4 must be one of the lucky ones by the sounds of it.
No problems with turbo's or anything else for that matter after travelling 105,000 Klm's.

Cheers, Craig

[Celtoid]

It sounds as though just a decent job needs to be done of connecting the hose.

You'd think so. I'm a bit disappointed as I've chatted to the two guys that have worked on my car recently. Both Brits with lots of LR experience and very cluey. Seemed pretty professional too. Shouldn't jump to conclusions though, so I'll wait for the verdict.

I do imagine if there is the possible need to pull the car apart again, that it has probably been relegated to plan B or C by management....LOL!!!

It's annoying not having seen exactly what the issue is and depending on somebodies explaination of a clamp or bracket that holds the body of the turbo together being very loose.

I used to know my cars inside out, serviced them all myself and have done engine, transmission and suspension rebuilds on past cars. These days I just don't have the time or the knowledge...too bloody complicated...:(

Embarrassingly I have to admit, I've never even taken the cover off the engine in this car....:angel:

[Celtoid]

My 3.0Lt D4 must be one of the lucky ones by the sounds of it.
No problems with turbo's or anything else for that matter after travelling 105,000 Klm's.

Cheers, Craig

Hi Craig,

I'd buy another D4 or RRS in a heartbeat. I'm sure there are plenty that have been fuss free. There is a guy in my local area that has a D4 and RRS...it's his second of both and has never had an issue....so there is one example...LOL!!!

Outside this issue mine has been pretty good. I've had a few niggly things but anything considered major are all attributed to the same 2 things....turbo and an arching earth cable that was causing constant erroneous faults. That was actually a cracker. LR finally find a cable with burning UNDER the lug. They replace it and suddenly my transmission is changing smoother, my battery remains charged, no more static through the stereo, no more windows opening after I've closed them or applied the handbrake, etc....coincidence?

Don't get me wrong, it poohs me that it isn't completely fuss free. It poohs me that the Merc I bought last year that has all sorts of trickery pokery on it, has been COMPLETELY faultless....but then I ask myself...what else would I buy?

My D4 is a blend of capabilities that I haven't seen matched in any other marque. Maybe a G Wagon would be better but I ain't spending that much....and I remember how badly their CSR PR exercise went!

Cheers,

Kev.

[Celtoid]

We are still replacing them all the time. On all 3.0l's whether they be D$'s or Sports.

The problem Land Rover have, is that they spend all this money on the engine, which I believe is originally a Peugeot engine, and then they slap their own "out of the dumpster" turbo's on them to reduce the cost. Garret make fine turbo's, however Land Rover only give them enough money to make cheap, horrible ones.

Unfortunately for them it has cost them a lot more than they expected. And unfortunately also, these problems are passed on to the customers.

Hope all goes well.

-Tech23

Thanks mate.

That's not very reassuring. So is there a plan afoot to change turbo design, build quality or are LR locked into a complete model run or something similar?

Cheers,

Kev.

[LRTech23]

I'd say they will be remodelling the turbo for new cars. As for current turbo faults, Land Rover have said they are releasing a fix for the fault without replacing the turbo....

I don't really get how that can work, as the turbos basically grind themselves to death. Probably has something to do with an oil feed pipe.

They released that message last week, so hopefully in the coming weeks we will see what they have decided to do .

Will let you know as soon as we hear anything from LR.

-Tech23

[Declan]

Hi
Lads looking at getting a RRS TDV8 would they have the same problem as the D4 or are there turbos in a different spot ?.

Declan :twisted::twisted:

[~Rich~]

I saw one of these TDV8's down at my specialist LR mechanic on Friday.

Yes the turbo's are in a similar location, it is easy to see why they cook!

It was a body off job, both turbos stuffed and the drivers side one had disintegrated with bits of metal ending up in the intercooler. The bill was going to be $16,000 as both turbos and the intercooler where going to be replaced.

Ouch, they had Allianz extended warranty which was going to cover the parts approx $10,000, owner had to cover the rest!

[LRTech23]

The turbos on the tdv8 are extremely hard to get to, you can only access them by splitting the two chassis.

The turbos don't go on the sports very often, usually it's just the actuator. Still a big job.

If I was going to get a sport I'd get a tdv8 though, good engine.

[Celtoid]

Right, confused now.....:confused:

As reported, quite a few very obvious drops of oil on the floor a short while after it was supposed to be fixed.

Next day a bit less and what looked like a spatter of oil.

The car is booked in on the 11th (only time they could arrange a replacement car), with a caveat of it coming straight in if the leak gets worse.

Since then....not a single drop....and yes there is still oil in the engine...:)

I'm now wondering if it was oil from the original leak pooled somewhere underneath.

I don't work in the city anymore so taking the car in is a pain in the arse...

I'm tempted to leave it until it's next service.....of course, it'll start leaking the second I cancel....LOL!!!

[Celtoid]

As in, I have another dud turbo.....

Fortunately they have the bits.

Apparently they have to modify the oil feeder line for the new one....What is that all about? LRTech23, Stigg?

Got a 300klms old Red Freelander to test drive until it's fixed. It's a petrol SE, very well appointed. Drives really well too.

[Malcolm]

I'd say they will be remodelling the turbo for new cars. As for current turbo faults, Land Rover have said they are releasing a fix for the fault without replacing the turbo....

I don't really get how that can work, as the turbos basically grind themselves to death. Probably has something to do with an oil feed pipe.

They released that message last week, so hopefully in the coming weeks we will see what they have decided to do .

Will let you know as soon as we hear anything from LR.

-Tech23

Any news Tech23? Would the MY13 models arriving soon have the same turbos?

[LRTech23]

Any news Tech23? Would the MY13 models arriving soon have the same turbos?

Nothing "official" at the moment.

Word going around and as I suspected is that there will be an updated oil feeder pipe for the 4.4. They've put a one way valve in the pipe, but they're only trialing it at the moment.

There's nothing for the 3.0L yet.

As soon as Land Rover release the information on it I will start a new thread with the information, so people can take their cars to dealers, as there seem to be a lot of people on this forum with the issue.

[LRTech23]

As for the new cars, I wouldn't be able to comment on that.

[Celtoid]

Nothing "official" at the moment.

Word going around and as I suspected is that there will be an updated oil feeder pipe for the 4.4. They've put a one way valve in the pipe, but they're only trialing it at the moment.

There's nothing for the 3.0L yet.

As soon as Land Rover release the information on it I will start a new thread with the information, so people can take their cars to dealers, as there seem to be a lot of people on this forum with the issue.


Thanks for your input mate.

So LR are replacing the same turbo...as in the secondary, as this is the one that's failed again.

They specifically mentioned having to modify the oil feeder to control flow, I think they even said reduce flow. Any ideas?

Cheers,

Kev.

[LRTech23]

Don't know how they are going to replace the turbo when they don't have any. Unless they have the old turbos in stock.

[Celtoid]

Don't know how they are going to replace the turbo when they don't have any. Unless they have the old turbos in stock.

I brought that up....the said they had the parts.

Hope they are right. :confused:

[Celtoid]

Just talked to LR to check on progress.

They have stocks of new turbos....just not visible on the system.

Case by case basis of replacement.

Insider info I guess. :)

Going back together right now, pick it up tomorrow.

[LRTech23]

It just seems weird
As Land Rover stated "our supply of secondary turbos for the 3l has been exhausted"

I hope that pun was intended. But if they have stock then I am very, very confused. Lucky you I guess! Hope it sorts out your issue.

[paintman]

Hi All
Our D4 3.0lt has oil leak, exact same symptoms as Celtoid's. It has been at LR dealer in Orange for nearly 2 weeks, at this stage no turbo replacement.
Paintman

[Celtoid]

It just seems weird
As Land Rover stated "our supply of secondary turbos for the 3l has been exhausted"

I hope that pun was intended. But if they have stock then I am very, very confused. Lucky you I guess! Hope it sorts out your issue.

Dunno what's going on there, no idea how your spares system works.

I asked if this was a new modified turbo or old stock and there was no hesitation in the answer....as in "why would we fit something we know will break again?"

I'm sure they aren't pulling my car apart for something to do, I'm assuming they have the spares.

Cheers,

Kev.

[Celtoid]

Hi All
Our D4 3.0lt has oil leak, exact same symptoms as Celtoid's. It has been at LR dealer in Orange for nearly 2 weeks, at this stage no turbo replacement.
Paintman


Two weeks....what are they doing?

Even when LR attempted the recent fix it was done in a day.

The very recent turbo replacement was carried out in two.

Give them a Gee Up!!!

Cheers,

Kev.

[paintman]

The Gee Up is going to happen tomorrow

Thanks
Paintman

[Celtoid]

The Gee Up is going to happen tomorrow

Thanks
Paintman

Oh forgot to add.....if you aren't aware the turbo replacement requires the car to be broken in half.....

If they can do that in two days...what the hell are they doing in two weeks?

An old mate of mine once said....."they could cut it in stone in that timeframe".....LMAO :D

[LRTech23]

Oh forgot to add.....if you aren't aware the turbo replacement requires the car to be broken in half.....

If they can do that in two days...what the hell are they doing in two weeks?

An old mate of mine once said....."they could cut it in stone in that timeframe".....LMAO :D

I hate to dampen the mood, but you're not actually allowed to split the body to replace the turbos anymore, warranty will only pay you so much to do it and they won't pay for a body split.

It's as simple as taking out a few things on the bank the turbo is on, such as the egr and other stuff. It usually takes about 1 day to get the turbo out and in, depending on how troublesome the car wants to be.

Out of interest what dealer have you taken your car to?

[Disco Muppet]

If it's the dealer in Orange then it's Tony Leahey, from what I understand they are only a recent dealer, so maybe they are working out the kinks in their system.
They wouldn't service my D2, nothing prior to 05 they said :(

[Celtoid]

I hate to dampen the mood, but you're not actually allowed to split the body to replace the turbos anymore, warranty will only pay you so much to do it and they won't pay for a body split.

It's as simple as taking out a few things on the bank the turbo is on, such as the egr and other stuff. It usually takes about 1 day to get the turbo out and in, depending on how troublesome the car wants to be.

Out of interest what dealer have you taken your car to?

Dampen the mood? Yeah I'm ****ing stoked about having my $100K motorcar split in half, once, twice or ever.....WT????

I was unaware of that change and just assumed that it was back to the split....and frankly I'd much rather they didn't, unless it's more risk prone not to.

Frankly, I'd rather there was no need at all!!!


Relevance of the dealer? Aren't they all LR trained?

[Disco Muppet]

Dampen the mood? Yeah I'm ****ing stoked about having my $100K motorcar split in half, once, twice or ever.....WT????

I was unaware of that change and just assumed that it was back to the split....and frankly I'd much rather they didn't, unless it's more risk prone not to.

Frankly, I'd rather there was no need at all!!!


Relevance of the dealer? Aren't they all LR trained?

I think that's just LRTech23's way of saying "Not trying to be rude" :wasntme:
As for the relevance of the dealer, your dealer might be fantastic, efficient, polite, etc, but it's certainly not a common feature of LR dealers in Australia.
And I think it was in reference to paintmans comment :)

[Celtoid]

I think that's just LRTech23's way of saying "Not trying to be rude" :wasntme:
As for the relevance of the dealer, your dealer might be fantastic, efficient, polite, etc, but it's certainly not a common feature of LR dealers in Australia.
And I think it was in reference to paintmans comment :)

You're probably right, I just took it as being a bit flippant. Was having a pooh of a day.:mad:

Sorry to one and all. I know LRTech23 is trying his best.

Cheers,

Kev.

[LRTech23]

I was more asking Just for general interest, and because I like to know what different dealers are doing, I have friends all over Australia, and to answer your question about arnt they all Land Rover trained the answer is no.

Some dealers do not sent ther technicians to get properly trained, I am lucky in that I get trained for my apprenticeship at the Land Rover school in Sydney, others are not so lucky. I can guarantee there are a lot of techs out there who don't know a lot about how the cars actually work, a lot don't care either.

[roamer]

I can guarantee there are a lot of techs out there who don't know a lot about how the cars actually work, a lot don't care either.


You are not wrong there :wasntme:
But your feed back is encouraging

Cheers Ken (whose D4 has been in dealers for 10days still not fixed)

[LRTech23]

You are not wrong there :wasntme:
But your feed back is encouraging

Cheers Ken (whose D4 has been in dealers for 10days still not fixed)

I wouldn't have joined a forum like this if I wasn't interested to learn :)

There are a lot of blokes on here who know more about these cars than techs do.

[Celtoid]

A little confused and frustrated by the conflicting input I've recieved on this thread, but in the end my car is fixed and hopefully I'll have no more issues with this turbo.

Outcome...Turbo replaced (with a new, modified unit), even though there aren't supposed to be any in stock...I'm assuming dealers are keeping mum on some or something like that. Dunno, in this case and would hate to think they are BS'ing and fitting old stock.

Modified oil feeder hose fitted, even though that wasn't apparently needed for this engine according to some input on this forum. :confused:

Some headscratching at LR today when I talked about replacing a turbo without splitting the car and that being no longer the way.

Their input:


There is a work around for a feeder hose replacement that they can do in-situ.
Turbo replacement...body off car!
What scares me about this, is the concern that it's suggested that folks are working on very expensive and complicated machines that shouldn't be and there is not a consistant approach to fixing technical issues, apparent lack of communication between different dealers, etc.

I'm not saying this is true but it's evident from this thread that one hand is not talking to the other.

Cheers,

Kev.

[Disco Muppet]

I'm not saying this is true but it's evident from this thread that one hand is not talking to the other.


Sounds like LRA is working as normal :(

[LRTech23]

If your dealer is still splitting bodies to take out secondary turbos then, well I really don't know what to say, we stopped doing that nearly 6 or 7 months ago.

I'm interested in that oil feed pipe. I'll have to look into that further.

Either way, the car is fixed, I hope your issue doesn't persist, good luck!

[Celtoid]

If your dealer is still splitting bodies to take out secondary turbos then, well I really don't know what to say, we stopped doing that nearly 6 or 7 months ago.

I'm interested in that oil feed pipe. I'll have to look into that further.

Either way, the car is fixed, I hope your issue doesn't persist, good luck!

Mate, in the industry I work in everything comes at a cost...

Your earlier comment about Warranty Vs Cost being the driver behind the decision to split, starts leaking when it comes to an outcome like this. Is this non-splitting, the industry standard for this situation? Is that what all other LR dealers are being advised to do...or just yours? Wasn't the car designed to be maintained that way, for major requirements?

How do LR dealers get paid for these transactions?

Why would they split the truck unless there was a need, or do they get financial benifit from that outcome?

Why would they have turbos when none exist?

Y would they fit a feeder pipe if there was no need?

I'm also concerned about your earlier comment about the turbos grinding themselves to death....when the exact opposite is true...they get too much oil, too much pressure, they blow the seals.... WT? The oil feeder mod is supposed to reduce oil flow/pressure.

The car is under warranty, I pay for nothing! Are they getting money elsewhere for this activity?....if so, why would any dealer challenge any warranty claim?

I'm sorry if I seem a little peaved about this, but most folks with a $100K outlay are not looking for this 'greyness'. It might be a pain in the ass to me whilst under warranty but it is a huge issue once the car isn't covered as it will be for a lot of folks who own D4s after October this year!

You probably think I'm having a go at you, but I'm not...but can you see it from the owners point of view?

LR in Brissy has a bunch of guys, including some Brits that have worked for LR over the pond. They seem to actually give a **** and know their ****. I understand that they may be constrained by what the company will allow to be known...but in this case, they seem to be the people who are trying to sort stuff out.

Take a $100K out of your own pocket and tell me that I have no reason to be concerned!

Rant over....

How was your day? :)

[Malcolm]

It might be a pain in the ass to me whilst under warranty but it is a huge issue once the car isn't covered as it will be for a lot of folks who own D4s after October this year!


What is happening after October this year?

(and good to hear you have your car back)

[Celtoid]

What is happening after October this year?

(and good to hear you have your car back)

Hi Malcolm,

The first batch of Australian delivered D4s will be out of original warranty in October...and every month from that point on.

Thanks.

It's an awesome car and I'm just annoyed that the only real issues I've had have been re-occurances...as in same type of turbo problem.

I'm not lying, the next car I buy will be another Disco.

Cheers,

Kev.

[LRTech23]

I've seen the turbos grind themselves to death, but I mean, yeah I probably was being a bit general about that. Of course there are other things that can go wrong with them.

As for how we get payed for the warranty work, Let say your turbo job is 10 hours work. LR pay us, as an example 80 dollars an hour for 10 hours only, whether it takes 3 hours or 20 hours, to work on that car. If the same job had to be undertaken but the customer was paying, we would basically get double that.

I got more information on that oil feeder pipe, I know the man who engineered it, it is a case by case part, there are only a few around and they may have needed to split the body to insert the new pipe. They basically took the old pipe and put a one way valve in it.

So yeah, don't know what more to add, plus I need to get to work /sigh.

Hope this eases your mind a little, I'd be glad to answer any further questions you may have.

[phl]

Some dealers do not sent ther technicians to get properly trained, I am lucky in that I get trained for my apprenticeship at the Land Rover school in Sydney, others are not so lucky. I can guarantee there are a lot of techs out there who don't know a lot about how the cars actually work, a lot don't care either.

An interesting comment; is there a way to find out which dealership has properly trained technicians? I'm considering the D4, and with all the talk of turbo problems, I'm wondering if I should wait for the problem to be fixed before considering the D4.

[Celtoid]

An interesting comment; is there a way to find out which dealership has properly trained technicians? I'm considering the D4, and with all the talk of turbo problems, I'm wondering if I should wait for the problem to be fixed before considering the D4.

Hi,

I'm not sure what the answer is for you. Apparently I now have a modified turbo and feeder system for said turbo....for whatever that is worth.

I haven't heard or read of anything on this forum of anything other than over-pressurised secondary turbos, as in from people who actually own a D4.

What the new builds have had done to them, I'm unsure and haven't read anything to suggest the problem has been fixed or hasn't been. There have been TC upgrades, etc...and that was awesome before, so you'd hope a problem child issue would have been addressed pronto! There are shed loads of D4s on the road (and RRS with the same engine...I think?) in Aus now and yet there are about 20'ish reported turbo problems on this forum....I'm sure there are more around but....

My experience black and white...

First turbo....I didn't even know there was a problem...miniscule oil leak. Probably would have driven for years like that.

Second turbo....more oil, as in drops on the floor. Still would have run for months without an issue...or longer I imagine.

The oil is breaching a seal due to overpressure above 2500rpm and only under certain circumstances...it doesn't cause a massive failure, seal flexes, oil vents, trickles and drips out and the car reseals and stops leaking once the engine is turned off. I had no obvious oil usage.

Warranty fix...2 days....car back!

My thoughts about it....****s me no end! My next car....D4 or RRS.....drive all the others off and on road....you'll see what I mean. :)

[phl]

I guess if I stick to MY13, they should hopefully have fixed the problem.

[Celtoid]

I guess if I stick to MY13, they should hopefully have fixed the problem.

I dunno......it doesn't sound like all (even original builds) were afflicted, but unfortunately there isn't enough evidence on this site to suggest that there is actually a modified turbo.

If there was a clear way of demonstrating a part number change, etc, it would help a hell of a lot....but all we have is heresay!

Frankly, if it's a worldwide issue, LR would be nuts not to work a fix!

Buy one.....go for it!!!

Cheers,

Kev.

[Tombie]

An interesting comment; is there a way to find out which dealership has properly trained technicians? I'm considering the D4, and with all the talk of turbo problems, I'm wondering if I should wait for the problem to be fixed before considering the D4.

I'd take LRTech23s comments with a grain of salt...

The LR Dealers Technicians are NOT allowed to work on a vehicle they haven't been trained on.

Never done the factory Evoque training - You cant touch one.
D4 trained - Get to work....

And so on and so on...

[LRTech23]

Yeah well I'm an apprentice and I touch evoques all the time, as do other techs who arnt level 3 I would like to say that's not what actually happens, but it is.

[LRTech23]

You need to be level 3 to touch an Evoque, you don't technically need to do the Evoque training